[opensuse] What are the exact differences each suse version?
According to Novell ( http://shop.novell.com/store/novelleu/DisplayCategoryProductListPage/categor... ) they sell: -SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 - e-License -SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop SP1 -openSUSE 10.3 (Pre-order) What is the difference between SLED 10 - e-License and SLED SP1 ? And what is the difference between SLED 10 - e-License priced 47 at EUR and SLED 10 - e-License priced at 118 EUR? According to the comparison chart ( http://www.novell.com/products/opensuse/comparative.html )openSUSE 'Security patches' have 'Limited availability. What do they mean with that? And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates? -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 27 October 2007 18:18:48 Aniruddha wrote:
According to Novell ( http://shop.novell.com/store/novelleu/DisplayCategoryProductListPage/catego ryID.3422200 ) they sell:
-SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 - e-License -SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop SP1 -openSUSE 10.3 (Pre-order)
What is the difference between SLED 10 - e-License and SLED SP1 ? And what is the difference between SLED 10 - e-License priced 47 at EUR and SLED 10 - e-License priced at 118 EUR?
I'm not sure exactly what an e-license is (I *think* it means you get it directly online, as opposed to a boxed version, but don't quote me on that), but the 118 EUR version is for three years, so it's a discount price, as compared to 3*47
According to the comparison chart ( http://www.novell.com/products/opensuse/comparative.html )openSUSE 'Security patches' have 'Limited availability. What do they mean with that?
The openSUSE releases are discontinued after two years, SLED is supported for with fixes and updates for seven years
And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?
That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 2007-10-27 at 18:31 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?
That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support
Anders
--
Does this mean that when you only pay 50 EUR for one year you don't get security patches the next year? This would mean that Novell is even more expensive then Windows XP which costs 100 / 150 (professional) EUR and has at least 7 yrs of security patches support. -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 28 October 2007 23:39:45 Aniruddha wrote:
On Sat, 2007-10-27 at 18:31 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?
That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support
Anders
--
Does this mean that when you only pay 50 EUR for one year you don't get security patches the next year? This would mean that Novell is even more expensive then Windows XP which costs 100 / 150 (professional) EUR and has at least 7 yrs of security patches support.
WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight But even so, for that money you get exactly nothing beyond the basic OS. No office package, no programs, nothing And you certainly don't get support For the money you pay for SLED, you also get free access to new versions when they're released. Good luck trying to get that from Microsoft (hint: without a massive license agreement, you can forget it) But if none of this is important to you, you're probably better off with opensuse. Remind me, the free version of Windows is called.....? -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Sunday 28 October 2007 23:39:45 Aniruddha wrote:
On Sat, 2007-10-27 at 18:31 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?
That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support
Anders
--
Does this mean that when you only pay 50 EUR for one year you don't get security patches the next year? This would mean that Novell is even more expensive then Windows XP which costs 100 / 150 (professional) EUR and has at least 7 yrs of security patches support.
WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight
But even so, for that money you get exactly nothing beyond the basic OS. No office package, no programs, nothing
And you certainly don't get support
For the money you pay for SLED, you also get free access to new versions when they're released. Good luck trying to get that from Microsoft (hint: without a massive license agreement, you can forget it)
But if none of this is important to you, you're probably better off with opensuse. Remind me, the free version of Windows is called.....?
I'm initiating a slow clap that builds up in intensity. Everyone, please join in! :-) -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Sunday 28 October 2007 23:39:45 Aniruddha wrote:
On Sat, 2007-10-27 at 18:31 +0200, Anders Johansson wrote:
And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?
That, plus other kinds of bug fixes and feature updates, plus support
Anders
--
Does this mean that when you only pay 50 EUR for one year you don't get security patches the next year? This would mean that Novell is even more expensive then Windows XP which costs 100 / 150 (professional) EUR and has at least 7 yrs of security patches support.
WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight
XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
But even so, for that money you get exactly nothing beyond the basic OS. No office package, no programs, nothing
{snip} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 29 October 2007 01:13:02 Mike McMullin wrote:
XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
The OEM edition is only legal if you put together boxes for sale, you're not allowed to buy it as an end user If you put together boxes to preload SLED on them, you can get it cheaper as well Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 28 October 2007 17:17, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Monday 29 October 2007 01:13:02 Mike McMullin wrote:
XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
The OEM edition is only legal if you put together boxes for sale, you're not allowed to buy it as an end user
Heh. Right. Only if you put together boxes for sale. ... Right. There's a reason we call it America: No rules, no laws, (next to) no taxes. Woo-Hoo! The best damn country on Earth!!
...
Anders
RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 01:17 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Monday 29 October 2007 01:13:02 Mike McMullin wrote:
XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
The OEM edition is only legal if you put together boxes for sale, you're not allowed to buy it as an end user
Note the readily available to consumer item here in the Great White North: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=335900&sku=M17-7502 and it too is OEM, Tiger Direct is no fly by night operation dealing in questionable software.
If you put together boxes to preload SLED on them, you can get it cheaper as well
That is something that would definitely interest me, but, I have questions about the annual security update subscription price for home users. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Mike McMullin wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 01:17 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Monday 29 October 2007 01:13:02 Mike McMullin wrote:
XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
The OEM edition is only legal if you put together boxes for sale, you're not allowed to buy it as an end user
Note the readily available to consumer item here in the Great White North: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=335900&sku=M17-7502
and it too is OEM, Tiger Direct is no fly by night operation dealing in questionable software.
If you put together boxes to preload SLED on them, you can get it cheaper as well
That is something that would definitely interest me, but, I have questions about the annual security update subscription price for home users.
A lot of people seem to think there's some law against selling OEM software, when it's in fact a contract issue between the software company and the end vendor. The vendor may have a contract that says they can't sell, except as bundled with hardware, but the customer has absolutely no contract with the software producer that prohibits buying an OEM package. Many vendors get around that contract by bundling with some permitted hardware, such as a hard drive. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 28 October 2007 17:13, Mike McMullin wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
...
WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight
XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
Go to Fry's (or it's equivalent in your area (*)) and buy a chassis fan (or a power supply or RAM or a mainboard or a disk drive or a cabinet, etc.) and get an OEM version of Windows for considerably less. I'm sad to say I need to run Windows, but I now have two OEM licenses, and I suspect that will suffice for the foreseeable future. God, I hope it does... (*) "Equivalent" means a vendor that sells Windows OEM discs with virtually any hardware purchase.
...
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2007-10-28 at 17:19 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 28 October 2007 17:13, Mike McMullin wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
...
WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight
XP-Pro OEM for $145 USd (includes Michigan Sate Taxes, etc.), in the last 4 weeks, proper "boxed" version.
Go to Fry's (or it's equivalent in your area (*)) and buy a chassis fan (or a power supply or RAM or a mainboard or a disk drive or a cabinet, etc.) and get an OEM version of Windows for considerably less.
I'm sad to say I need to run Windows, but I now have two OEM licenses, and I suspect that will suffice for the foreseeable future. God, I hope it does...
(*) "Equivalent" means a vendor that sells Windows OEM discs with virtually any hardware purchase.
I bought XP-Home Upgrade, at Price Costco for $119Can last year, I saw it at Radio Shack for $200 Can and passed on the price. I only wanted the OS for my son who insisted on Windows for his desktop system. Now I need to learn how to make it work in my mostly Linux home network. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Mike McMullin wrote:
I only wanted the OS for my son who insisted on Windows for his desktop system.
You try your best to raise your kids well, but some of them still go wrong. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 07:26 -0400, James Knott wrote:
Mike McMullin wrote:
I only wanted the OS for my son who insisted on Windows for his desktop system.
You try your best to raise your kids well, but some of them still go wrong. ;-)
-- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org
Blame it on the videogames ;) -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 28 October 2007 16:14, Anders Johansson wrote:
...
But if none of this is important to you, you're probably better off with opensuse. Remind me, the free version of Windows is called.....?
Ubuntu, I think, though the comforting challenges to your right to run it are absent, and you'll probably be bothered to find that you cannot exhibit the conspicuous consumption required to turn a bare operating system into something you can use to get work done. Now, if you just bought your hardware or have needs not shared by 95+% of other users, you'll need to get a solid, supported, comprehensive OS. What was that name again? Oh, right: openSUSE.
-- Madness takes its toll
Ah, now I get it... Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 00:14 +0100, Anders Johansson wrote:
WinXP Home Edition cost 199 USD, Professional is almost impossible to buy today, Vista is 500 dollars. Get your facts straight
That is 150 EUR and who want Vista anyways?.
But even so, for that money you get exactly nothing beyond the basic OS. No office package, no programs, nothing
And you certainly don't get support
And what if you only need security patches and could care lees about office packages, programs etc.
For the money you pay for SLED, you also get free access to new versions when they're released. Good luck trying to get that from Microsoft (hint: without a massive license agreement, you can forget it)
But if none of this is important to you, you're probably better off with opensuse. Remind me, the free version of Windows is called.....?
--
Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED becomes very difficult to sell: Windows XP 7yr support 100,- EUR Gentoo Linux unlimited support 0,- EUR SLED 7 yr support 329,- EUR -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Op ma oktober 29 2007 09:03, schreef Aniruddha: (snip)
Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED becomes very difficult to sell:
Windows XP 7yr support 100,- EUR Gentoo Linux unlimited support 0,- EUR SLED 7 yr support 329,- EUR
Yeah, right. You forgot a couple: Apples 1.99 Eur/kilogram Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece Regards, -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:29 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
Op ma oktober 29 2007 09:03, schreef Aniruddha: (snip)
Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED becomes very difficult to sell:
Windows XP 7yr support 100,- EUR Gentoo Linux unlimited support 0,- EUR SLED 7 yr support 329,- EUR
Yeah, right. You forgot a couple: Apples 1.99 Eur/kilogram Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece
Regards, -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704
If you don't plan on contributing with arguments please don't say anything at all. -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Yeah, right. You forgot a couple: Apples 1.99 Eur/kilogram Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece
Regards, -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704
If you don't plan on contributing with arguments please don't say anything at all.
How is "You are comparing apples with oranges on only one parameter, the price" not an argument? -- Med venlig hilsen Kaare Rasmussen, Jasonic Jasonic Telefon: +45 3816 2582 Nordre Fasanvej 12 2000 Frederiksberg Email: kaare@jasonic.dk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:45 +0100, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
Yeah, right. You forgot a couple: Apples 1.99 Eur/kilogram Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece
Regards, -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704
If you don't plan on contributing with arguments please don't say anything at all.
How is "You are comparing apples with oranges on only one parameter, the price" not an argument?
--
It's an statement, not an argument backed why facts. A good argument would be "It seems to me that you comparing apples to oranges because ...." That way I can address the arguments. By simple stating that I am comparing apples with oranges there is no argument involved, thus rendering this opinion useless. -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
It's an statement, not an argument backed why facts. A good argument would be "It seems to me that you comparing apples to oranges because ...."
Or, as it is your problem, you could tell yourself "What is this guy trying to tell me? Can I use his input to get a better understanding of my original problem?" But hey, do what you want. It's a free world. Don't expect people to advice you if you don't want to listen. -- Med venlig hilsen Kaare Rasmussen, Jasonic Jasonic Telefon: +45 3816 2582 Nordre Fasanvej 12 2000 Frederiksberg Email: kaare@jasonic.dk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:27 +0100, Kaare Rasmussen wrote:
It's an statement, not an argument backed why facts. A good argument would be "It seems to me that you comparing apples to oranges because ...."
Or, as it is your problem, you could tell yourself "What is this guy trying to tell me? Can I use his input to get a better understanding of my original problem?"
That is exactly my point 'comparing apples to oranges' is useless as input. -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Op ma oktober 29 2007 09:35, schreef Aniruddha:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:29 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
Op ma oktober 29 2007 09:03, schreef Aniruddha: (snip)
Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED becomes very difficult to sell:
Windows XP 7yr support 100,- EUR Gentoo Linux unlimited support 0,- EUR SLED 7 yr support 329,- EUR
Yeah, right. You forgot a couple: Apples 1.99 Eur/kilogram Oranges 0.30 Eur apiece
Regards, -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704
If you don't plan on contributing with arguments please don't say anything at all.
But I can only repeat the arguments of Anders that you either don't get or don't want to get: Windows XP is a bare OS that you have to spend a lot of money on in buying extra programs to get anything done at all. Plus that you have to upgrade the software every other year and no, that's not for free. In an office environment that upgrade is almost compulsory. Never ever in my whole life I would advise a customer Gentoo, because if he could handle that he wouldn't have come to me for advice in the first place. If you want Suse for free, get Opensuse and not SLED. The extra support you get comes at a price. 50 E a year is peanuts for a company. In other words, you're comparing apples with oranges. Sheez. -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:53 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
But I can only repeat the arguments of Anders that you either don't get or don't want to get: Windows XP is a bare OS that you have to spend a lot of money on in buying extra programs to get anything done at all.
That is no true. last time I checked most open source program available for Linux were also available for Windows (Openoffice, thunderbird etc.) or had viable freeware alternatives (cdburnerxppro for k3b etc).
Plus that you have to upgrade the software every other year and no, that's not for free. In an office environment that upgrade is almost compulsory.
Which software are your referring to?
Never ever in my whole life I would advise a customer Gentoo, because if he could handle that he wouldn't have come to me for advice in the first place.
I have always advised and deployed Gentoo, which worked very well even for complete Linux beginners. Deploying an Gentoo image costs less than 30 minutes in which you have a complete working system -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Op ma oktober 29 2007 10:08, schreef Aniruddha:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:53 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
But I can only repeat the arguments of Anders that you either don't get or don't want to get: Windows XP is a bare OS that you have to spend a lot of money on in buying extra programs to get anything done at all.
That is no true. last time I checked most open source program available for Linux were also available for Windows (Openoffice, thunderbird etc.) or had viable freeware alternatives (cdburnerxppro for k3b etc).
Plus that you have to upgrade the software every other year and no, that's not for free. In an office environment that upgrade is almost compulsory.
Which software are your referring to?
Office et al. Only now it has become clear that you apparently are targeting the home user, which makes this whole discussion rather pointless. The knowledgeable home user may get a whole slew of open source software for free, even for MS Windows, but most software for MS Windows is either shareware or commercial. But a knowledgeable home user would not come to you for advice, because he does not need it.
Never ever in my whole life I would advise a customer Gentoo, because if he could handle that he wouldn't have come to me for advice in the first place.
I have always advised and deployed Gentoo, which worked very well even for complete Linux beginners. Deploying an Gentoo image costs less than 30 minutes in which you have a complete working system
You must be joking. I installed gentoo on a virtual machine and it cost two days. Sometimes you suddenly need a package that has not been installed yet. In Suse or Debian you fire up yast or apt-get and are good to go in a matter of minutes. In Gentoo you emerge your packet and it takes then a couple of hours to compile. I like the idea of gentoo, but I would not have it as my production system. This will be my last contribution to this thread, because it is a complete waste of time. Regards, -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 12:39 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
Which software are your referring to?
Office et al. Only now it has become clear that you apparently are targeting the home user, which makes this whole discussion rather pointless. The knowledgeable home user may get a whole slew of open source software for free, even for MS Windows, but most software for MS Windows is either shareware or commercial. But a knowledgeable home user would not come to you for advice, because he does not need it.
Non-sense there is more than enough freeware for Windows, you only have to look for it. And in regard to MSoffice There aren't any compulsory subscription fees after your initial purchase.
You must be joking. I installed gentoo on a virtual machine and it cost two days. Easy as an pie if you have a running Gentoo install (installing Gentoo takes between 1-2 hours). Set USE-flags, choose your target architecture (e.g.686) and create an image (e.g. with partimage) of your system.
Sometimes you suddenly need a package that has not been installed yet. In Suse or Debian you fire up yast or apt-get and are good to go in a matter of minutes. In Gentoo you emerge your packet and it takes then a couple of hours to compile.
I like the idea of gentoo, but I would not have it as my production system.
Compile times depend on your computing power, and with computing power still doubling every two years this shouldn't be a big problem. Besides there is no need for compiling. You can use portage binhost to download and install binary packages.
This will be my last contribution to this thread, because it is a complete waste of time.
There your go again. You really should polish your communications skills because you sound very rude. No one forced you to answer, it is not necessary for you to be so inpolite. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 13:02 +0100, Aniruddha wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 12:39 +0100, Jos van Kan wrote:
Which software are your referring to?
Office et al. Only now it has become clear that you apparently are targeting the home user, which makes this whole discussion rather pointless. The knowledgeable home user may get a whole slew of open source software for free, even for MS Windows, but most software for MS Windows is either shareware or commercial. But a knowledgeable home user would not come to you for advice, because he does not need it.
Non-sense there is more than enough freeware for Windows, you only have to look for it. And in regard to MSoffice There aren't any compulsory subscription fees after your initial purchase.
I don't think you're accustomed to the problems that corporate consumers face. For the home user, these issues are not as prevalent. But for corporate customers, there is ALWAYS ALWAYS the price of a "hidden" cumpulsory subscription. Remember, corporations rarely, if ever, pay the retail price you see for software. They negotiate and they get discount buyins. Unfortunately, with Microsoft, discounts come at a hefty price. Take for example, a customer of mine who was griping about recently having to spend over half a million dollars (US) on upgrades to MS Office 2007. His contract locked him in to buying it as a guarantee. As for the excuse that there are plenty of freeware options available for XP. Sure there is, but for corporate customers, heh, the IT Department is unlikely to support or sanction its use in the company. They are not about to introduce new software if it doesn't have strong solid support behind it. And that's where Novell comes in, because you know you get strong solid support behind their products. You speak of great experience when it comes to home users, and for that I respect you. But your assumptions about the culture/politics/buying-power of the corporate world are severely misguided. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 08:22 -0500, Bryen wrote:
Non-sense there is more than enough freeware for Windows, you only have to look for it. And in regard to MSoffice There aren't any compulsory subscription fees after your initial purchase.
I don't think you're accustomed to the problems that corporate consumers face. For the home user, these issues are not as prevalent. But for corporate customers, there is ALWAYS ALWAYS the price of a "hidden" cumpulsory subscription. Remember, corporations rarely, if ever, pay the retail price you see for software. They negotiate and they get discount buyins. Unfortunately, with Microsoft, discounts come at a hefty price. Take for example, a customer of mine who was griping about recently having to spend over half a million dollars (US) on upgrades to MS Office 2007. His contract locked him in to buying it as a guarantee.
As for the excuse that there are plenty of freeware options available for XP. Sure there is, but for corporate customers, heh, the IT Department is unlikely to support or sanction its use in the company. They are not about to introduce new software if it doesn't have strong solid support behind it. And that's where Novell comes in, because you know you get strong solid support behind their products.
You speak of great experience when it comes to home users, and for that I respect you. But your assumptions about the culture/politics/buying-power of the corporate world are severely misguided.
-- ---Bryen---
I think we should make a distinction between small business and large corporations. You are absolutely right about large corporations. However these arguments doesn't apply for small businesses. Small business is almost in the boat as the home user. For example often they don't have enough workstations to negotiate discount buyins. What can Novell offer small business and the home user? -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 14:42 +0100, Aniruddha wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 08:22 -0500, Bryen wrote:
Non-sense there is more than enough freeware for Windows, you only have to look for it. And in regard to MSoffice There aren't any compulsory subscription fees after your initial purchase.
I don't think you're accustomed to the problems that corporate consumers face. For the home user, these issues are not as prevalent. But for corporate customers, there is ALWAYS ALWAYS the price of a "hidden" cumpulsory subscription. Remember, corporations rarely, if ever, pay the retail price you see for software. They negotiate and they get discount buyins. Unfortunately, with Microsoft, discounts come at a hefty price. Take for example, a customer of mine who was griping about recently having to spend over half a million dollars (US) on upgrades to MS Office 2007. His contract locked him in to buying it as a guarantee.
As for the excuse that there are plenty of freeware options available for XP. Sure there is, but for corporate customers, heh, the IT Department is unlikely to support or sanction its use in the company. They are not about to introduce new software if it doesn't have strong solid support behind it. And that's where Novell comes in, because you know you get strong solid support behind their products.
You speak of great experience when it comes to home users, and for that I respect you. But your assumptions about the culture/politics/buying-power of the corporate world are severely misguided.
-- ---Bryen---
I think we should make a distinction between small business and large corporations. You are absolutely right about large corporations. However these arguments doesn't apply for small businesses. Small business is almost in the boat as the home user. For example often they don't have enough workstations to negotiate discount buyins. What can Novell offer small business and the home user?
First of all, because it is clear you are using Evolution, please use Ctrl+L when replying to a list post. Otherwise, I (we) get a double email from you. Now, What can Novell offer the small business environment? Well, Novell offers the Open WorkGroup Suite Small Business Edition. This includes OES, SLES, SLED, GroupWise, etc. for up to 200 users. Cost: $350 per 5 users. (That comes to $70 per user for 7 years of support - or roughly $10 a year.) Of course that is retail. Going through your distributor, you may be able to get even cheaper discounts. Pretty good bang for your buck if you ask me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:12 -0500, Bryen wrote:
First of all, because it is clear you are using Evolution, please use Ctrl+L when replying to a list post. Otherwise, I (we) get a double email from you.\
Hey I always use CTRL+l only the last mail was a mistake :(
Now, What can Novell offer the small business environment? Well, Novell offers the Open WorkGroup Suite Small Business Edition. This includes OES, SLES, SLED, GroupWise, etc. for up to 200 users. Cost: $350 per 5 users. (That comes to $70 per user for 7 years of support - or roughly $10 a year.) Of course that is retail. Going through your distributor, you may be able to get even cheaper discounts.
Pretty good bang for your buck if you ask me.
That is great news! Are your sure this comes with 7 year support and not only one year? (The Novell website isn't working so I couldn't check for myself). That would be a very good deal! Do you happen to know if they have something like that for home users? -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 15:30 +0100, Aniruddha wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:12 -0500, Bryen wrote:
First of all, because it is clear you are using Evolution, please use Ctrl+L when replying to a list post. Otherwise, I (we) get a double email from you.\
Hey I always use CTRL+l only the last mail was a mistake :(
Now, What can Novell offer the small business environment? Well, Novell offers the Open WorkGroup Suite Small Business Edition. This includes OES, SLES, SLED, GroupWise, etc. for up to 200 users. Cost: $350 per 5 users. (That comes to $70 per user for 7 years of support - or roughly $10 a year.) Of course that is retail. Going through your distributor, you may be able to get even cheaper discounts.
Pretty good bang for your buck if you ask me.
That is great news! Are your sure this comes with 7 year support and not only one year? (The Novell website isn't working so I couldn't check for myself). That would be a very good deal!
Do you happen to know if they have something like that for home users?
Well, Novell, as a business, is targeted towards corporate markets rather than home markets. For the home market, openSuse would be the alternative. I don't see Novell coming up with the wherewithal to set up a tech support service that would be able to handle the influx of home user support requests. That's a huge undertaking and would divert Novell's focus away from their current strategy. Also, you need to remember that SLED isn't the same as openSuse. OpenSuse has alot of packages right out of the box. But, SLED is stripped down to only support the needs of a typical corporate environment. There's less in there. For example, the Apache2 package isn't included with SLED, because quite frankly, should a corporate user be running a webserver from his desk? :-) That's not to say you CAN'T install Apache2 to a SLED box. It just isn't on the DVD, that's all. A stripped down, non-bloated, corporate-needs operating system has significant advantages in desktop management and reduced troubleshooting processes. By the way, I also wanted to mention, another advantage of going the Novell purchase route. You get a better quality of OpenOffice installation. Sure you can get it for free from oo.org, but there are serious compatibility issues with MS documents. Novell has tweaked their own version of oOo to be better compatible with MS document formats, and thus less complaints from users when they can't read/break an MS document emailed to them. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:01 -0500, Bryen wrote:
Do you happen to know if they have something like that for home users?
Well, Novell, as a business, is targeted towards corporate markets rather than home markets. For the home market, openSuse would be the alternative. I don't see Novell coming up with the wherewithal to set up a tech support service that would be able to handle the influx of home user support requests. That's a huge undertaking and would divert Novell's focus away from their current strategy.
Also, you need to remember that SLED isn't the same as openSuse. OpenSuse has alot of packages right out of the box. But, SLED is stripped down to only support the needs of a typical corporate environment. There's less in there. For example, the Apache2 package isn't included with SLED, because quite frankly, should a corporate user be running a webserver from his desk? :-)
That's not to say you CAN'T install Apache2 to a SLED box. It just isn't on the DVD, that's all.
A stripped down, non-bloated, corporate-needs operating system has significant advantages in desktop management and reduced troubleshooting processes.
By the way, I also wanted to mention, another advantage of going the Novell purchase route. You get a better quality of OpenOffice installation. Sure you can get it for free from oo.org, but there are serious compatibility issues with MS documents. Novell has tweaked their own version of oOo to be better compatible with MS document formats, and thus less complaints from users when they can't read/break an MS document emailed to them.
-- ---Bryen---
Thank you, this is a very good explanation. In conclusion we can say Novell has a good solution for corporations (small or huge). For home users openSUSE would be their best choice. The only downside I see is the short life cycle of two years. Interesting point about oOo, I assume this version is also available in openSUSE? -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 17:49 +0100, Aniruddha wrote:
Thank you, this is a very good explanation. In conclusion we can say Novell has a good solution for corporations (small or huge). For home users openSUSE would be their best choice. The only downside I see is the short life cycle of two years.
Interesting point about oOo, I assume this version is also available in openSUSE?
Yes. openSuse carries the Novell version as well. Although, like the rest of openSuse, it is more bleeding edge. With openSuse, you get the latest and greatest. But, in some ways, you're also the test guinea pig, and as we have seen in 10.3, like sotware updater, things still need work. If your users don't mind it, then fine. Otherwise, for a strong, stable, well-tested environment, SLED is still the best bet. For more information about the Novell version of oOo, go to www.go-oo.org. This site is maintained by one of the Novell developers for OpenOffice. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aniruddha wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:01 -0500, Bryen wrote:
OpenSuse has alot of packages right out of the box. But, SLED is stripped down to only support the needs of a typical corporate environment.
and, may be the most important, the support of Novell is for all the included packages, not only the kernel :-). Of course, Novell can't support the many packages openSUSE hold.
serious compatibility issues with MS documents. Novell has tweaked their own version of oOo to be better compatible with MS document formats, and thus less complaints from users when they can't read/break an MS document emailed to them.
is that true? I wonder why, in this case, the enhancement are not ported upward to ooo? *integration* with opensuse is better, and it's already a good thing jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2007/10/27/127022-Claire-Dodin-une-Toulousai... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
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* jdd
is that true? I wonder why, in this case, the enhancement are not ported upward to ooo?
they are but not in all cases and not always (ever) quickly aiui, all Novell *enhancements* are suggested/provided upstream for inclusion at the upperlevels, kde/gnome/kernel/.... OPENSOURCE :^) - -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn4472 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHJjQGClSjbQz1U5oRAkreAJ4v7pNiWK/EBsobaXUCrFUWMeLHLACfbnnf 7jHum8jSRA3dLpbbcR57p2o= =quR+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 20:21 +0100, jdd wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:01 -0500, Bryen wrote:
OpenSuse has alot of packages right out of the box. But, SLED is stripped down to only support the needs of a typical corporate environment.
and, may be the most important, the support of Novell is for all the included packages, not only the kernel :-). Of course, Novell can't support the many packages openSUSE hold.
serious compatibility issues with MS documents. Novell has tweaked their own version of oOo to be better compatible with MS document formats, and thus less complaints from users when they can't read/break an MS document emailed to them.
is that true? I wonder why, in this case, the enhancement are not ported upward to ooo?
My understanding, the last time I read about this (maybe a year ago), OpenOffice ships with macros disabled, whereas Novell ships with macros enabled. That's more of a philosophical difference than a technical difference. In which case, philosophies aren't upstreamed to the main project. It is more like a fork, although I wouldn't exactly call Novell's OpenOffice a fork like other OpenOffice products that are out there. -- ---Bryen--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aniruddha wrote:
Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED becomes very difficult to sell:
Windows XP 7yr support 100,- EUR Gentoo Linux unlimited support 0,- EUR SLED 7 yr support 329,- EUR
That Gentoo comparison is a joke isn't it? If you would do that you could also easily update to a new openSUSE version every two years what would also give you "unlimited support" for zero costs. Are you targetting home users or business users with your IT company? That's the important question because it would give us a hint which costs for the customer are important anyway. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:53 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED becomes very difficult to sell:
Windows XP 7yr support 100,- EUR Gentoo Linux unlimited support 0,- EUR SLED 7 yr support 329,- EUR
That Gentoo comparison is a joke isn't it? If you would do that you could also easily update to a new openSUSE version every two years what would also give you "unlimited support" for zero costs.
No it isn't and prior to the release of openSUSE 10.3 I was preparing for large Gentoo deployments. You're right that I could a new openSUSE version every two years but considering the costs (and down-time) involved in comparison to Gentoo doesn't make a viable solution.
Are you targetting home users or business users with your IT company? That's the important question because it would give us a hint which costs for the customer are important anyway.
Wolfgang
Good question. I am targeting home users for now with plans for business users in the near future. However I do want to have a stable option (SLED) available for certain home users who require this. -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aniruddha wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 09:53 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Aniruddha wrote:
Let me explain my myself. As the owner of an IT company I am always looking to provide my customers the best (Open Source) solution. I am absolutely not Windows minded however looking at the figures SLED becomes very difficult to sell:
Windows XP 7yr support 100,- EUR Gentoo Linux unlimited support 0,- EUR SLED 7 yr support 329,- EUR That Gentoo comparison is a joke isn't it? If you would do that you could also easily update to a new openSUSE version every two years what would also give you "unlimited support" for zero costs.
No it isn't and prior to the release of openSUSE 10.3 I was preparing for large Gentoo deployments.
You're right that I could a new openSUSE version every two years but considering the costs (and down-time) involved in comparison to Gentoo doesn't make a viable solution.
So I wouldn't expect any lower downtimes or costs when you'd use Gentoo. Sorry but I don't believe that Gentoo is doing a great job in keeping compatibility and stability (over for example 7 years) so that you would have to invest a lot of time to fix systems after "broken" updates. BTW your numbers seem to be wrong. I get 279 EUR für 7 years of SLED.
Are you targetting home users or business users with your IT company? That's the important question because it would give us a hint which costs for the customer are important anyway.
Good question. I am targeting home users for now with plans for business users in the near future. However I do want to have a stable option (SLED) available for certain home users who require this.
OK, in my opinion SLED is pretty interesting for companies because they don't have to care too much about the workstations themselves. Updates are available a long time and do work in most cases so it's not much maintenance needed (what would cause quite some costs for companies). For installations with Gentoo you'd need more manpower to maintain the systems I'd bet so it comes with a cost. Compared with Windows I think it's in most cases no simple price comparison. We are talking about two completely different systems with advantages and disadvantages. In a corporate environment you also mustn't compare with XP Home. So the price difference is not high and it makes IMHO no sense to compare these prices. Compare everything else but not the license/maintenance costs here. I don't have too many arguments in the home user space though. If people want a Linux system which is supported for a long time they have to invest money in some form. Gentoo is also no option here IMHO because those people don't want to "play" with the Linux system but work with it. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:36 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
So I wouldn't expect any lower downtimes or costs when you'd use Gentoo. Sorry but I don't believe that Gentoo is doing a great job in keeping compatibility and stability (over for example 7 years) so that you would have to invest a lot of time to fix systems after "broken" updates.
My experience has been otherwise, everywhere I have deployed Gentoo it required almost zero maintenance. However I must admit these were home users only. However looking at the cases in which Gentoo is deployed on a large scale (Medium to large clusters using Gentoo) I suspect it would be also suitable for a corporate environment.
BTW your numbers seem to be wrong. I get 279 EUR für 7 years of SLED.
My mistake, where did you get that figure?
OK, in my opinion SLED is pretty interesting for companies because they don't have to care too much about the workstations themselves. Updates are available a long time and do work in most cases so it's not much maintenance needed (what would cause quite some costs for companies). For installations with Gentoo you'd need more manpower to maintain the systems I'd bet so it comes with a cost.
I think you are right about SLED being interesting for companies. maybe Novell should make a interesting offering for home users looking for something very stable? Another problem is that SLED has security support for far fewer packages. SLED only provides support for suse-oss and suse-no-oss which isn't a whole lot (I guess around 3000 packages) in comparison to Gentoo/Debian/FreeBSD which have security support for respectively: 12.000/22.000/16.000 packages.
Compared with Windows I think it's in most cases no simple price comparison. We are talking about two completely different systems with advantages and disadvantages. In a corporate environment you also mustn't compare with XP Home. So the price difference is not high and it makes IMHO no sense to compare these prices. Compare everything else but not the license/maintenance costs here.
There you have a point, however it would be good for Novell to offer something for the home user besides openSUSE.
I don't have too many arguments in the home user space though. If people want a Linux system which is supported for a long time they have to invest money in some form. Gentoo is also no option here IMHO because those people don't want to "play" with the Linux system but work with it.
Wolfgang
I have deployed Gentoo many times to absolute Linux beginners without problems. As long as you know how to click an icon on the desktop you're fine. Any problems I encountered could be easily (within 10 minutes) be solved through SSH. -- Regards, Aniruddha Please adhere to the OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aniruddha wrote:
On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 10:36 +0100, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
So I wouldn't expect any lower downtimes or costs when you'd use Gentoo. Sorry but I don't believe that Gentoo is doing a great job in keeping compatibility and stability (over for example 7 years) so that you would have to invest a lot of time to fix systems after "broken" updates.
My experience has been otherwise, everywhere I have deployed Gentoo it required almost zero maintenance. However I must admit these were home users only. However looking at the cases in which Gentoo is deployed on a large scale (Medium to large clusters using Gentoo) I suspect it would be also suitable for a corporate environment.
I have to admit that I never used Gentoo myself but can only try to assume by their concept.
BTW your numbers seem to be wrong. I get 279 EUR für 7 years of SLED. My mistake, where did you get that figure?
http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/pricing_euro.html Take 2x3years and 1 year in addition instead of 7x1 ;-)
Another problem is that SLED has security support for far fewer packages. SLED only provides support for suse-oss and suse-no-oss which isn't a whole lot (I guess around 3000 packages) in comparison to Gentoo/Debian/FreeBSD which have security support for respectively: 12.000/22.000/16.000 packages.
One could discuss about guaranteed product features provided by a company or voluntary work which might be done by the community (or not). That is something everyone has to decide for himself.
I have deployed Gentoo many times to absolute Linux beginners without problems. As long as you know how to click an icon on the desktop you're fine. Any problems I encountered could be easily (within 10 minutes) be solved through SSH.
Yep, that's 10 minutes of your time. Who is paying for that? You or your customer? For how many customers would you do that for free? (I don't argue that stuff like that could happen with bad updates everywhere but in theory it should be covered by your maintenance contract where you get support for that kind of stuff.) Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Aniruddha escribió:
openSUSE 'Security patches' have 'Limited availability. What do they mean with that? And does it really cost 50 EUR per year to get security updates?
openSUSE security patches are available for two years...what you pay for the boxed set is the media, installation support and printed manuals... SLE is fully supported by Novell Technical services (NTS) and both security fixes and service packs are issued for 7 years. In short, openSUSE is intented for end-users and SLE for bussiness/mission critical stuff. -- "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." --Albert Einstein Cristian Rodríguez R, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Anders Johansson -
Aniruddha -
Bryen -
Cristian Rodriguez -
James Knott -
jdd -
Jos van Kan -
Kaare Rasmussen -
Mike McMullin -
Patrick Shanahan -
Randall R Schulz -
Wolfgang Rosenauer