[opensuse] Re: Why does MS-Windows need no "initrd-equivalent" in order to boot w/a wider range of x86[-64] compat HW?

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Linda Walsh

30 Nov 2012 30 Nov '12

01:22

Greg KH wrote:

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On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 04:07:28PM -0800, Linda Walsh wrote:

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Perhaps someone can explain to me why Windows doesn't need a pre-boot ramdisk in order to boot, while Linux does?

It does need one, and it has one, why do you think it doesn't?

The boot procedure for Windows is documented in the Windows NT internals book. There is no ramdisk that it uses.

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Note, this is _way_ off-topic here.

--- Where do you think it would be "on-topic", considering _you_ don't want to hear it in any venue? You know the requirement of an initrd is bull, Claiming windows has one is even worse bullshit than I'd ever give you credit for. You can trace a windows boot -- there is no preload of a memory-resident copy of windows, that then loads windows. The drivers for the hardware are on the disk in /windows/system32/drivers. On Windows, it reads their boot managager, which then loads 'winload' which *demand*-loads drivers and services from disk -- they aren't all bound in to the kernel in order for it too boot. Please read Chapter 13 on Startup and Shutdown of the 5th edition of the Windows Internals book to get straightened out. The only time Windows needs a ramdisk during boot is when the boot-image needs to be downloaded from the net (i.e. a diskless boot). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Philipp Thomas

30 Nov 30 Nov

09:57

On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 17:22:50 -0800, Linda Walsh wrote:

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On Windows, it reads their boot managager, which then loads 'winload' which *demand*-loads drivers and services from disk

But in order for that it needs to be able to access the disk and read the file system, so drivers for both need to be loaded from somewhere or built into the kernel. Filesystem is rather easy as Windows only supports FAT and NTFS for boot fs, what it does with storage drivers like hardwarfe RAID I have no idea.

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Please read Chapter 13 on Startup and Shutdown of the 5th edition of the Windows Internals book to get straightened out.

I at least (and I guess a few others) won't buy a book I/they don't need otherwise. So posting links to e.g. wikipedia is much better for such a discussion. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh

1 Dec 1 Dec

14:30

Philipp Thomas wrote:

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I at least (and I guess a few others) won't buy a book I/they don't need otherwise. So posting links to e.g. wikipedia is much better for such a discussion.

It's a very good read about OS design and internals -- at least as good as the Unix OS books and loads better than the BSD OS books -- which are barely better than annotated source listings. Even though I don't use BSD, or OS/2, or a few-several other of the OS-related books I've read, I find that getting knowledge about how different OS's do things tends to lessen the tendency towards tunnel vision that so many experts become increasingly guilty of as they become more 'expert', though the successful ones often tout interdisciplinary knowledge (including outside the computer field) as being invaluable for optimal function in creativity, insight and design. Wikipedia is an invaluable and excellent resource for many topics, I use it often -- and have contributed to it as well. However it has some competing goals that make it hard to be excellent in all things: 1) It must steed clear of copyrighted material or material not in the public domain. 2) It desires references for all included material & 3) very often -- references are only to be found in copyrighted works -- and personal knowledge is NOT considered (many instances of this) a valid 'reference'... (seems weird if someone is an expert, but you can't 'cite' yourself -- well maybe, you can if you are published, but usually not)... Some of those items conflict w/each other... so it makes it hard for it to be an ideal source for everything, but I'll swear by it for most things!... But for in-depth knowledge in one area -- curling up w/a good book is hard to beat. No tablet (even if I had one) is as flexible or as versatile. But just for you -- I looked, and a used paperback edition of the 5th (good for most stuff up through Vista -- even into Win7... though the 6th came out in April of this year), can be had for $2.08: (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/listing/2687470011255 ). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas

15:11

On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 06:30:50 -0800, Linda Walsh wrote:

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It's a very good read about OS design and internals -- at least as good as the Unix OS books and loads better than the BSD OS books --

I tend to disagree. The classic BSD 4.3 book wasn't bad, at least in it's original. I first made the error of buying the German translation about twenty years ago and that was a desaster as the translator had somehow kept the english way of construting sentences so they really only made sense when translated back to English. This was my first book about the implementation of an OS, later followed by the book about OS/2.

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I use it often -- and have contributed to it as well. However it has some competing goals that make it hard to be excellent in all things:

IMO it doesn't need to be excellent. It's most prominent feature is that it's easily quotable via cut&paste or referenced via URL.

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But just for you -- I looked, and a used paperback edition of the 5th (good for most stuff up through Vista -- even into Win7... though the 6th came out in April of this year), can be had for $2.08: (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/listing/2687470011255 ).

Thanks, but I had looked myself and Barnes & Noble shipping&handling is a bit expensive for Germany. But Amazon Marketplace has the used hard cover for 10 including s&h. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh

16:36

New subject: [opensuse] (OT...was: Re: Why does MS-Windows need no "initrd-equivalent" in order to boot w/a wider range of x86[-64] compat HW?)

Philipp Thomas wrote:

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On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 06:30:50 -0800, Linda Walsh wrote:

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It's a very good read about OS design and internals -- at least as good as the Unix OS books and loads better than the BSD OS books --

I tend to disagree. The classic BSD 4.3 book wasn't bad, at least in it's original.

That's not a disagreement -- saying something is loads better doesn't mean the other was *bad*. I liked it -- it just wasn't very good prose (compared to the others)... I've seen worse but the annotated code listings (literally) are hardly meant to be meant to be prose -- though some are published into books...

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most stuff up through Vista -- even into Win7... though the 6th came out in April of this year), can be had for $2.08: (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/listing/2687470011255 ).

Thanks, but I had looked myself and Barnes & Noble shipping&handling is a bit expensive for Germany. But Amazon Marketplace has the used hard cover for 10 � including s&h.

S&H are a killer... I order stuff from Japan (Anime).. the S&H are often more than the product.... *ouch*.

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Philipp

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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