On 10/24/2014 02:07 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-10-24 12:38, ellanios82 wrote:

...

Hello List,

- recently my UPS 12 volt battery has given-up the ghost and died.

Due location it is not easy to get exact correct replacement UPS Battery.

- could someone be so kind to advise :

is it safely possible to replace dead battery with a 12 volt jelly Car Battery ? Good question.

With traditional lead-acid batteries, there were some important differences between car batteries and static batteries. Car batteries are subject to vibration, which can be bad, breaking things, but also good, in that the vibration caused the bubbles to go up easily (bubbles in the plates act as insulator, reducing capacity and current flow). Static batteries compensated by separating the plates so that bubbles floated easily up. Car batteries could be way more compact, less free liquid.

With modern jelly batteries, this does not happen. There are no "bubbles". So I'm unsure what is the difference now between car and static models.

I think you could use any static model of similar "Amps * hour" rating. Similar as in "same or more", not less. How much more, I'm unsure. Obviously, bigger capacity means that they take longer to charge, longer to discharge, and suffer less damage on discharge because it is not so "brutal" for them, being bigger.

On the other hand, the electronics might not cope right. Guessing here for possibilities. The battery can discharge for a longer time, so that the electronics may be running an active load for longer, perhaps overheating. The electronics might guess wrong at the charge/discharge cycles and capacity, and compensate wrongly. Charging will take longer, maybe the electronics thinks that it is not charging because it does not see the voltage rise and think the battery is damaged.

Most of that is wild guessing on my part... we need someone with current internal knowledge to say. Maybe it depends on design parameters. Maybe nothing (bad) happens! .............

- hopefully . . . hopefully : thanks { maybe mr Daniel in Barcelona may benefit from UPS [ + jelly car battery?] } regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-10-24 12:38, ellanios82 wrote:

...

Hello List,

- recently my UPS 12 volt battery has given-up the ghost and died.

Due location it is not easy to get exact correct replacement UPS Battery.

- could someone be so kind to advise :

is it safely possible to replace dead battery with a 12 volt jelly Car Battery ?

Good question.

With traditional lead-acid batteries, there were some important differences between car batteries and static batteries. Car batteries are subject to vibration, which can be bad, breaking things, but also good, in that the vibration caused the bubbles to go up easily (bubbles in the plates act as insulator, reducing capacity and current flow). Static batteries compensated by separating the plates so that bubbles floated easily up. Car batteries could be way more compact, less free liquid.

With modern jelly batteries, this does not happen. There are no "bubbles". So I'm unsure what is the difference now between car and static models.

I think you could use any static model of similar "Amps * hour" rating. Similar as in "same or more", not less. How much more, I'm unsure. Obviously, bigger capacity means that they take longer to charge, longer to discharge, and suffer less damage on discharge because it is not so "brutal" for them, being bigger.

On the other hand, the electronics might not cope right. Guessing here for possibilities. The battery can discharge for a longer time, so that the electronics may be running an active load for longer, perhaps overheating. The electronics might guess wrong at the charge/discharge cycles and capacity, and compensate wrongly. Charging will take longer, maybe the electronics thinks that it is not charging because it does not see the voltage rise and think the battery is damaged.

Most of that is wild guessing on my part... we need someone with current internal knowledge to say. Maybe it depends on design parameters. Maybe nothing (bad) happens!

Well, really, you have to tear open the UPS and see how that particular UPS was designed and how it operates. I wouldn't even count on two UPS from the same manufacturer to operate the same internally if they don't have IDENTICAL model numbers. Open it up. Turn it on, and with the battery removed, use a volt-meter to measure the "open voltage" across the battery leads -- this will tell you what voltage the controller is attempting to maintain the battery at. If you want to change it... typically adding resistance onto a lead (preferably the "hot" lead, not the ground lead) will lower the "open" voltage, and reducing resistance on that lead will raise the "open" voltage. Increasing resistance ALSO reduces charge/discharge rates and increases charging time.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-10-26 12:52, James Knott wrote:

On 10/26/2014 02:19 AM, Central Scrutinizer wrote:

...

If you want to change it... typically adding resistance onto a lead (preferably the "hot" lead, not the ground lead) will lower the "open" voltage, and reducing resistance on that lead will raise the "open" voltage.

Just adding a resistor to the lead will not reduce the open voltage. However, it will reduce the voltage under load.

Yes and yes. And choosing hot/ground lead makes no difference in this regard. It is impossible to control the trickle charge voltage with resistors, no matter what configuration; you need active circuits for this. A diode would do the trick, though (0.6 V). Probably too much. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

James Knott wrote:

On 10/26/2014 02:19 AM, Central Scrutinizer wrote:

...

If you want to change it... typically adding resistance onto a lead (preferably the "hot" lead, not the ground lead) will lower the "open" voltage, and reducing resistance on that lead will raise the "open" voltage.

Just adding a resistor to the lead will not reduce the open voltage. However, it will reduce the voltage under load. In order for that resistor to cause a voltage drop, there must be current flowing through it, which is something you don't have when the circuit is open. A decent volt meter will not draw enough current to produce a noticeable voltage drop. If you want to drop the voltage to an open circuit, you need two resistors, R1 & R2, wired in series, with one end of R1 connected to the charger and one end of R2 connected to ground. The connection between the two will then have an open circuit voltage proportional to R2/(R1+R2). There will now be a significant current through R2, which may reduce the charging capacity of the charger.

When you measure the "open voltage" with a voltmeter, the added resistance should cause a drop in measured voltaage. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/27/2014 04:30 AM, Central Scrutinizer wrote:

...

Just adding a resistor to the lead will not reduce the open voltage. However, it will reduce the voltage under load. In order for that resistor to cause a voltage drop, there must be current flowing through it, which is something you don't have when the circuit is open. A decent volt meter will not draw enough current to produce a noticeable voltage drop. If you want to drop the voltage to an open circuit, you need two resistors, R1 & R2, wired in series, with one end of R1 connected to the charger and one end of R2 connected to ground. The connection between the two will then have an open circuit voltage proportional to R2/(R1+R2). There will now be a significant current through R2, which may reduce the charging capacity of the charger.

When you measure the "open voltage" with a voltmeter, the added resistance

should cause a drop in measured voltaage. I suggest you review Ohm's law. A volt meter draws virtually no current. Since it's current through a resistor that causes the voltage drop, if there's no current, there's no voltage drop.

BTW, my education is in electrical engineering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/27/2014 02:28 PM, Central Scrutinizer wrote:

Ah, you're right.

It's good to know my education hasn't gone to waste. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

If "Jelly car battery" means gel cell type, then of course it will work. Even a standard wet cell battery will work, as long as you do not put it inside the case (corrosion, gas venting, etc) The inverter circuits in UPS units work quite well with various lead acid technologies (gel, wet, glass mat) so connect it and enjoy.

One quick thing to monitor with your voltmeter, and adjust as necessary - different types of lead acid batteries require different float voltages to properly maintain them. So if you're switching battery types, you'll want to ensure that the charging circuits in your UPS are detecting the battery type properly to ensure the best battery life. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Float_voltage (I had to tweak the float voltage on my APC SU700a because it was running too high of a float voltage, and was killing my batteries off too quickly.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Fred n Sandy wrote:

On Friday 24 October 2014, Christopher Myers wrote:

...

(I had to tweak the float voltage on my APC SU700a because it was running too high of a float voltage, and was killing my batteries off too quickly.)

Yeah, there is that. Gel cells typically run a bit lower float than auto batteries, so my thought is that putting a wet cell in place of a gel cell doesn't hurt anything... if anything, it may not keep the wet cell at its optimum voltage and the capacity will be ever so slightly reduced but the effect is minimal

Especially since they have much more capacity than the small gel cells used in most household UPS devices -- even at only 50% charge, they should still have more capacity than a brand new sealed gel cell. And since automotive batteries can typically be obtained from junk yards for only a few dollars (they're happy to get rid of a heavy hazardous material item that has very low scrap value), it's a no brainer to get a couple. Buy 3 from a junkyard and you could still be at under $10 investment for the batteries themselves -- buying lugs will probably be cheaper than used batteries from a junk yard.

Fred

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-10-26 07:13, Central Scrutinizer wrote:

...

And since automotive batteries can typically be obtained from junk yards for only a few dollars (they're happy to get rid of a heavy hazardous material item that has very low scrap value), it's a no brainer to get a couple.

Don't. A battery that has been used to start a car for a year or two has suffered a lot, and doesn't last long in light load use. Charge it, leave it alone for a week, and measure the voltage before and after. It should not change noticeably. If it does, the battery is bad.

I only want a UPS battery to last 5-10 minutes. Anything beyond that is a bonus. Very few cars are in the junk yard due to a bad battery -- which means a good portion of those batteries are good. A friend of mine owns and runs an automotive electrical shop. He buys automotive batteries out of junk yards, charges & load tests them, and sells the good one for US $3 and still makes a profit -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-10-27 09:57, Per Jessen wrote:

Central Scrutinizer wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

Guys, why don't you take this to opensuse-offtopic?

Sorry O:-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

James Knott wrote:

On 10/27/2014 04:47 AM, Central Scrutinizer wrote:

...

He buys automotive batteries out of junk yards, charges & load tests them, and sells the good one for US $3 and still makes a profit

What's his time worth?

He buys them by the dozen. It gets people into his shop, so that when they need more expensive work, they're more likely to come to him. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2014 04:58 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 10/25/2014 12:22 AM, Central Scrutinizer wrote:

...

ellanios82 wrote:

...

Hello List,

- recently my UPS 12 volt battery has given-up the ghost and died.

Due location it is not easy to get exact correct replacement UPS Battery.

- could someone be so kind to advise :

is it safely possible to replace dead battery with a 12 volt jelly Car Battery ?

Mine has recently died (the battery, not the UPS) and replacing it with a car battery is exeactly my intent.

They are BOTH lead-(sulphuric) acid chemistry, so are essentially interchangeable, except that the car battery has a greater capacity in Amp-hours, and also has higher peak charge and discharge rates.

I'll offer some things I learned a long time ago and haven't revisited since, so take them with a grain of salt.

Car batteries used to have lead plates alloyed with antimony (I think) to allow them to stand up to vibration. But this alloying agent also resulted in low internal electrical resistance that allowed a certain amount of current to pass from from the charger, even if the battery was fully charged. This current electrolyzed the water turning it to hydrogen and oxygen, which means the water levels needed to be checked regularly. Then in the '70s the lead was alloyed with something else (calcium?) that raised the internal resistance and minimized the requirement to check the water level all the time. Remember fully sealed car batteries? But the new batteries didn't handle deep discharging as well as the older ones and their lives were drastically shortened if fully discharged. So another type of battery was developed that handled deep discharging/charging cycles. These batteries didn't have the peak current capacity as the regular auto batteries, but you didn't need that for applications like powering lights in a boat.

So I would think that a UPS would want a "deep discharge" battery. I have no idea what gel cell batteries do, but I know they're used in big UPS systems. I've got one that puts out 10-KVA and is run with twelve 12-V gel cells about the same size a a motorcycle battery. They're wired in series and it always makes me VERY nervous when replacing them.

Again, this is all from foggy memory. I'm sure that google points to lots of more accurate information.

BTW, any marine supply store will have deep discharge batteries in lots of sizes.

Regards, Lew .............

- thank you : interesting re : "makes me VERY nervous when replacing them" . . . would reason be risk of electric shock? thanks regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2014 07:49 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* ellanios82 [10-25-14 10:41]: [...]

...

re : "makes me VERY nervous when replacing them" . . . would reason be risk of electric shock? more likely burn. One is very unlikely to get "shock" from dc current, but availability of instantaneous high current greatly increases burn hazard.

I respectfully disagree! Direct current is even more dangerous than alternating because the DC will "freeze" your muscles which could prevent you from releasing the thing shocking you. AC will cause your muscles to "twitch", making it easier to drop the hazard. I remember an old-school EE who said he could "taste" a battery terminal and tell you if it was positive or negative. He demonstrated this remarkable feat with a 9-volt transistor radio battery with both terminals on one end. So his tongue closed the circuit between the terminals and you should have seen that battery fly across the room at Mach-3! This experience and others, prove that very smart people, who are very specialized, can be really stupid outside of their fields. For example, I once had a bet with this same EE who claimed that it was impossible to tell the difference between a sound in front of you and one behind you. His argument was that there is a 180-degree directional ambiguity when you have only two sensors. I told him that there are other ways to localize sound directionality, but he wouldn't believe me. So I sat on a chair with a blindfold and he snapped his fingers wherever he wanted around me and I was able to point directly at the sounds. I was able to differentiate all three axis, pointing up and down as well as front and back without moving my head. I won the bet. The shape of your ears and reflections from walls and ceilings make it easy to differentiate. What was amazing is this guy was in his late '50s and hadn't figured all this out for himself! Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-10-25 17:19, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 10/25/2014 07:49 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: ellanios82 <> [10-25-14 10:41]:

...

...

re : "makes me VERY nervous when replacing them" . . . would reason be risk of electric shock? more likely burn. One is very unlikely to get "shock" from dc current, but availability of instantaneous high current greatly increases burn hazard.

I respectfully disagree! Direct current is even more dangerous than alternating because the DC will "freeze" your muscles which could

Yes, but we are talking of 12 volts here. I can hold the rods of a 12 volt battery, even a huge one, and I don't even notice it in my fingers - provided they are not wet. Yes, I have done it, so I do know. Other people are more sensitive. About the burn: yes, but not your body, for the same reason as above. If you short-circuit the connecting rods or plugs, then indeed you have burn danger. You can even melt the metal doing the short circuit, in a explosion if the battery is big enough. It is similar to an arc soldering device: you can do it with a battery, but you risk destroying it. If your hands are wet, or worse, humid with sea water, or battery acid, then you do risk some electrocution danger. Depends where you touch it. The wrong place and method and even a torch battery can kill you (passing the current through the heart with a good connection).

from walls and ceilings make it easy to differentiate. What was amazing is this guy was in his late '50s and hadn't figured all this out for himself!

Because not everybody has a good ear :-) I have seen somebody navigate a big room full of obstacles, just using tongue clicks. I think he even tried with a bicycle, blind, in a parking lot. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 10/25/2014 10:17 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

On 10/25/2014 10:19 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

I remember an old-school EE who said he could "taste" a battery terminal and tell you if it was positive or negative. He demonstrated this remarkable feat with a 9-volt transistor radio battery with both terminals on one end. So his tongue closed the circuit between the terminals and you should have seen that battery fly across the room at Mach-3!

Before you touch your tongue to the 9volt battery terminals get a good amount of saliva on the tip of your tongue. That way the current flows more through the saliva instead of your tongue. Still not what I call a really good time but effective to guage the amount of power left in a 9 volt battery.

Course, when I was young I also liked to stick bobby pins I found on the floor in electrical outlets. It tickled.

Har! My first memory as a kid was sticking each end of a bobby pin in an electrical outlet! I can still see the shower of sparks! I must have been about 3-years old. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2014 12:21 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 10/25/2014 10:17 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

...

On 10/25/2014 10:19 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

I remember an old-school EE who said he could "taste" a battery terminal and tell you if it was positive or negative. He demonstrated this remarkable feat with a 9-volt transistor radio battery with both terminals on one end. So his tongue closed the circuit between the terminals and you should have seen that battery fly across the room at Mach-3!

Before you touch your tongue to the 9volt battery terminals get a good amount of saliva on the tip of your tongue. That way the current flows more through the saliva instead of your tongue. Still not what I call a really good time but effective to guage the amount of power left in a 9 volt battery.

Course, when I was young I also liked to stick bobby pins I found on the floor in electrical outlets. It tickled.

Har! My first memory as a kid was sticking each end of a bobby pin in an electrical outlet! I can still see the shower of sparks! I must have been about 3-years old.

Regards, Lew

Just stick it in one side at a time. Not both at the same time. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-10-25 16:53, Anton Aylward wrote:

Old radio ham adage:

its the volts that jolts but the mills that kills

True...

I've seem a man thrown across the room by a screwdriver he dropped across a 5V bussbar vaporising explosively. Big capacitors. High Amperage. Fool though 5V was 'safe' because it was low voltage.

Car mechanics will tell you of screwdrivers/crowbars melted by dropping across car/truck batteries.

Someone in my company fell from a ladder while doing connections on the power rack of a phone exchange. In desperation he tried to grab at something, whatever thing, chancing to put his screwdriver or wrench just across the BIG 48 volt bar. That bar is about 2 inches square section copper bar, connected via several 1 cm² cables to a room full of lead acid batteries, giving 48 volts nominally. (exchanges don't need all that instant power, really. The thick wires are there to minimize losses and reduce supply resistance, and the batteries are big mostly in order to last days. The side effect is that the current capacity is HUGE). The tool vaporized, and the exchange went down (power glitch, like a reset to a computer). An entire island disconnected for some hours while the thing rebooted and was checked. The man was taken to the hospital, in shock. Not electrical shock, but the sheer fright kind of sock. He was actually unharmed. And the installation was just barely harmed. Culprits? Many. The company not supplying employees with sleeve coated tools, plus suitable gloves and long sleeves. The exchange scheduling works on prime hour. The site manager for allowing a ladder to be setup near to a hole in the floor, nor a harness for work in heights (a meter or two, so not strictly needed).

So yes, but it depends on you meaning of "Shock".

Other places have both high voltage AND high current, but those are usually inaccessible to the like of us peons. Just be careful flying a kite :-)

:-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 10/25/2014 09:54 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 10/25/2014 07:40 AM, ellanios82 wrote:

...

re : "makes me VERY nervous when replacing them" . . . would reason be risk of electric shock?

Yes, exactly! 144-VDC with lots of current capability is enought to send you off on a very long journey.

Regards, Lew

You could put several 12 volt batteries in parallel and connect to your UPS. You do not want to put standard lead/acid car or deep cycle batteries in the house. Build a weather proof box for outdoors and bring the power in with heavy wires. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2014 12:12 PM, jdd wrote:

Le 25/10/2014 19:09, Billie Walsh a écrit :

...

You do not want to put standard lead/acid car or deep cycle batteries in the house. Build a weather proof box for outdoors and bring the power in with heavy wires.

why do you worry at this point? there is no problem using a motocycle 12V 7Ah battery in an UPS. Just do not block the air vent and do not put the device upside down !

jdd

Hydrogen and oxygen don't just make water. They make things go bang when they make water. Even with the vents open gases will still build up inside the cabinet. One small spark and things will get exciting very quick. -- “Never be afraid to laugh at yourself, after all, you could be missing out on the joke of the century.” - Joan Rivers _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-10-25 19:29, jdd wrote:

Le 25/10/2014 19:20, Billie Walsh a écrit :

...

Hydrogen and oxygen don't just make water. They make things go bang when they make water. Even with the vents open gases will still build up inside the cabinet. One small spark and things will get exciting very quick.

not in working battery, not in any percentage. I never have seen a car battery explode and there are sparks all around.

I have. I applied a lighter to a small one while charging. I wanted to see hydrogen burn. (chuckle) I did not see it "burn". It just exploded softly, no lights. Fortunately the battery was small, not much hydrogen. (I was 14..15) But you are right, car batteries do not accidentally explode, but simply because the gas does not accumulate. Even less the modern gel type, or "no maintenance" type. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 10/25/2014 01:47 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I wanted to see hydrogen burn.

IIRC, hydrogen burns with an invisible flame. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 15:54:04 -0400 James Knott wrote:

On 10/25/2014 01:47 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I wanted to see hydrogen burn.

IIRC, hydrogen burns with an invisible flame.

Pale blue and orange and mostly ultraviolet. It's not visible in sunlight but otherwise it can be seen. jd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2014 10:20 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

On 10/25/2014 12:12 PM, jdd wrote:

...

Le 25/10/2014 19:09, Billie Walsh a �crit :

...

You do not want to put standard lead/acid car or deep cycle batteries in the house. Build a weather proof box for outdoors and bring the power in with heavy wires.

why do you worry at this point? there is no problem using a motocycle 12V 7Ah battery in an UPS. Just do not block the air vent and do not put the device upside down !

jdd

Hydrogen and oxygen don't just make water. They make things go bang when they make water. Even with the vents open gases will still build up inside the cabinet. One small spark and things will get exciting very quick.

What the heck do you think comes inside up standard UPSs Billie? Mice on a tread wheel? -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-10-26 01:49, Billie Walsh wrote:

The bottom line is that inside the UPS case there isn't enough air circulation to keep any gassing from building up. Any gas that comes out of a standard lead/acid motorcycle batter will build up and displace whatever else might be in there. You will have a high concentration Hydrogen/Oxygen atmosphere in there.

About all batteries sold here are gel type now. Car batteries are gel type now, no maintenance. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Billie Walsh wrote:

On 10/25/2014 06:17 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 10/25/2014 10:20 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

...

On 10/25/2014 12:12 PM, jdd wrote:

...

Le 25/10/2014 19:09, Billie Walsh a �crit :

...

You do not want to put standard lead/acid car or deep cycle batteries in the house. Build a weather proof box for outdoors and bring the power in with heavy wires.

why do you worry at this point? there is no problem using a motocycle 12V 7Ah battery in an UPS. Just do not block the air vent and do not put the device upside down !

jdd Hydrogen and oxygen don't just make water. They make things go bang when they make water. Even with the vents open gases will still build up inside the cabinet. One small spark and things will get exciting very quick.

What the heck do you think comes inside up standard UPSs Billie? Mice on a tread wheel?

Gel Cells. Gell Cells don't gas like a standard lead/acid battery. We have about twenty UPS's in the house. When the power goes out the whole house screams.

The bottom line is that inside the UPS case there isn't enough air circulation to keep any gassing from building up. Any gas that comes out of a standard lead/acid motorcycle batter will build up and displace whatever else might be in there. You will have a high concentration Hydrogen/Oxygen atmosphere in there.

If you have a death wish, or wish to destroy your house, be my guest. Pile as many standard old lead acid batteries around your house as you wish.

If I replace the battery in my UPS with a car battery, it won't fit in the case anyway.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2014 10:09 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

You could put several 12 volt batteries in parallel and connect to your UPS.

I was always taught not to do this. The internal resistance of batteries is so low that if they're connected in parallel one will discharge through the other. I remember seeing diode terminals that could be used to allow parallel connections for deep-discharge battery applications. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-10-25 19:47, lynn wrote:

On 25/10/14 19:15, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

On 10/25/2014 10:09 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

...

You could put several 12 volt batteries in parallel and connect to your UPS.

I was always taught not to do this. The internal resistance of batteries is so low that if they're connected in parallel one will discharge through the other. I remember seeing diode terminals that could be used to allow parallel connections for deep-discharge battery applications.

Well, you can... but not the whole battery, better cell by cell, and of the same capacity, model and age, and state of charge. And then you have to watch that a cell doesn't degrade more than another. Diodes? Yes... but you waste half a volt. At the current levels during mains failure, it is important (5.4% important). Better switch battery banks.

You can only use diode terminals with openSUSE <= 12.2, after that you must upgrade at least the negative terminal to systemd.

ROTFL! X'-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 10/25/2014 01:15 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

You could put several 12 volt batteries in parallel and connect to your UPS.

I was always taught not to do this. The internal resistance of batteries is so low that if they're connected in parallel one will discharge through the other. I remember seeing diode terminals that could be used to allow parallel connections for deep-discharge battery applications.

Quite so. In the telecommunications industry, cells are wired in series to make up the desired voltage. I've never seen them connected in parallel. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-10-26 02:05, jdebert wrote:

Because all batteries are not the same. When discharging deeply, one will go flat before the other and may be reverse-charged.

Huh. Reverse charging happens when connected in series, not in parallel. (-) bat 1 (+) (-) bat 2 (+) 50% -------- 80 % ---> current flow, 1 A on all cells, in series. later: bat 1 bat 2 0% ---- 30 % ---> current flow, 1 A on all cells, in series. bat 1 bat 2 -10% ---- 20 % ---> current flow, 1 A on all cells, in series. This is the normal configuration, by the way. Unavoidable.

And it is not resistance but difference in potential that causes one to discharge through another.

When in parallel, one cell discharges on the other, charging it, till they are at the same potential, and, probably, at the same charge level. Energy is not "lost", just redistributed, save losses: (-) bat 1 (+) +--- 50% -----+------ --> external current flow = 0 | | (standby) | | | bat 1 | internal current flow +--- 80% -----+----- anti-clockwise (-) (+) later: (-) bat 1 (+) +--- 60% -----+------ --> external current flow = 0 | | (standby) | | | bat 1 | +--- 68% -----+----- (-) (+) later: (-) bat 1 (+) +--- 62% -----+------ --> external current flow = 0 | | (standby) | | | bat 1 | +--- 62% -----+----- (-) (+) (invented loss figure) What happens if you charge them and they are slightly different, is that one will charge earlier than the other, and then start to overcharge, if you charge fast enough. If you trickle charge, nothing (bad) happens. However, classic lead acid batteries could stand some overcharging. They just heated a bit, and gassed. You just replaced the water lost and done. With extra-fast charging you could destroy them instead. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 10/25/2014 12:22 AM, Central Scrutinizer wrote:

...

ellanios82 wrote:

...

Hello List,

- recently my UPS 12 volt battery has given-up the ghost and died.

Due location it is not easy to get exact correct replacement UPS Battery.

- could someone be so kind to advise :

is it safely possible to replace dead battery with a 12 volt jelly Car Battery ?

Mine has recently died (the battery, not the UPS) and replacing it with a car battery is exeactly my intent.

They are BOTH lead-(sulphuric) acid chemistry, so are essentially interchangeable, except that the car battery has a greater capacity in Amp-hours, and also has higher peak charge and discharge rates.

I'll offer some things I learned a long time ago and haven't revisited since, so take them with a grain of salt.

Car batteries used to have lead plates alloyed with antimony (I think) to allow them to stand up to vibration. But this alloying agent also resulted in low internal electrical resistance that allowed a certain amount of current to pass from from the charger, even if the battery was fully charged. This current electrolyzed the water turning it to hydrogen and oxygen, which means the water levels needed to be checked regularly. Then in the '70s the lead was alloyed with something else (calcium?) that raised the internal resistance and minimized the requirement to check the water level all the time. Remember fully sealed car batteries? But the new batteries didn't handle deep discharging as well as the older ones and their lives were drastically shortened if fully discharged. So another type of battery was developed that handled deep discharging/charging cycles. These batteries didn't have the peak current capacity as the regular auto batteries, but you didn't need that for applications like powering lights in a boat.

So I would think that a UPS would want a "deep discharge" battery. I have no idea what gel cell batteries do, but I know they're used in big UPS systems. I've got one that puts out 10-KVA and is run with twelve 12-V gel cells about the same size a a motorcycle battery. They're wired in series and it always makes me VERY nervous when replacing them.

Again, this is all from foggy memory. I'm sure that google points to lots of more accurate information.

"Deep Discharge" batteries are often sold as "Marine Batteries" because, as you state, they are often used to power interior & running lights on boats (especially sailboats) without any sort of generator (you would think that outboard motor makers would produce engines with an "has an alternator for recharging your battery" option. Sailboats are one of the few places where I think solar chargers are a good idea.

BTW, any marine supply store will have deep discharge batteries in lots of sizes.

Regards, Lew

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 03:22:24 -0400 Central Scrutinizer wrote:

ellanios82 wrote:

...

Hello List,

- recently my UPS 12 volt battery has given-up the ghost and died.

Due location it is not easy to get exact correct replacement UPS Battery.

- could someone be so kind to advise :

is it safely possible to replace dead battery with a 12 volt jelly Car Battery ?

Mine has recently died (the battery, not the UPS) and replacing it with a car battery is exeactly my intent.

They are BOTH lead-(sulphuric) acid chemistry, so are essentially interchangeable, except that the car battery has a greater capacity in Amp-hours, and also has higher peak charge and discharge rates.

Lead-calcium batteries tolerate a max design charge rate of 35amps without damage. the damage increases proportionally with the charge rate and is cumulative. This is why a battery fails quickly after being jumped just a few times. Such a battery will self-discharge rapidly or stop holding a charge altogether, especially in freezing weather, and will quickly boil off from constant charging. Starved electrolyte batteries such as the Optima brand will be permanently and severely damaged when the charge rate exceeds the design max limit of 35amps. This is why they must never be jumped even once. It will void the warranty. And who wants to buy a new Optima every month at the current price of $250US? Gel electrolyte batteries generally have a much lower charge rate. Exceeding it can permanently damage the battery. The electrolyte can retain heat longer than the other two types. I do not recall what the charge rate is atm and it varies by battery vendor, type and capacity. UPS's are designed to charge specific gel batteries at specific rates. Don't learn the hard way how not to handle or use such batteries. Read up on them, their specs and MSDS's. Know how to protect yourself in case something goes wrong. Be prepared for anything. Safety First. jd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2014-10-25 at 18:02 -0700, jdebert wrote:

Starved electrolyte batteries such as the Optima brand will be permanently and severely damaged when the charge rate exceeds the design max limit of 35amps. This is why they must never be jumped even once. It will void the warranty. And who wants to buy a new Optima every month at the current price of $250US?

Language barrier here: What is "jumping a battery"?

Gel electrolyte batteries generally have a much lower charge rate. Exceeding it can permanently damage the battery. The electrolyte can retain heat longer than the other two types. I do not recall what the charge rate is atm and it varies by battery vendor, type and capacity. UPS's are designed to charge specific gel batteries at specific rates.

Good to know. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRNAqkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XNNwCdEgPiR3ckkO/8o2CoAydKSYkJ QlsAniqgQNu2Bw9icFNzwjlFHBi4QQ1L =3+BA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 26/10/2014 18:40, jdebert a écrit :

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:18:17 +0100 (CET) "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

Language barrier here: What is "jumping a battery"?

Sorry!

Shortened form of "jump start", a method of starting a car with a flat battery by using another fresh battery, attaching cables (the "jumper") between the two batteries so they are in parallel.

There is a very large current surge from the other car's battery to the flat battery that generates gas, heats the flat battery and creates some defects on the plates, etc. Sometimes old batteries pop their caps or even crack when jumped.

jd

never seen that (and done this alas quite frequently). There are even "boosters" specially to do this, that is charge a battery with an other one. I use to test eventual short circuit ticking the big cable from the new battery to the old battery connector to see is there is a spark :-) this is instructed to be for 1/4 hour in the booster notice jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-10-26 18:40, jdebert wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 15:18:17 +0100 (CET) "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

...

Language barrier here: What is "jumping a battery"?

Sorry!

Shortened form of "jump start", a method of starting a car with a flat battery by using another fresh battery, attaching cables (the "jumper") between the two batteries so they are in parallel.

Ah! Yes. I have done it myself. I usually carry in the trunk a pair of cables for the purpose. So that's how you call it, jump start. :-)

There is a very large current surge from the other car's battery to the flat battery that generates gas, heats the flat battery and creates some defects on the plates, etc. Sometimes old batteries pop their caps or even crack when jumped.

Wow. I have not seen that! I had to "jump start" my previous car about two years ago. I left it on the long stay airport car park, for a month. When I came back, it would not start. The parking lot had a battery they use for that very purpose, specially made, and we started the car effortlessly. Later on that same day, I stopped for a coffee - absolutely needed, after more than 12 hour flight with changes - and it would not start. I had to jump start it from a friend's car, with whom I was taking that coffee. So I drove straight to a battery shop, left the car running at the shop front, and bought a new battery then and there. If I went home to sleep first, it would not have started and I could not have bought a battery... I had decided already that it was damaged, if it could not hold enough charge for a month in summer, to even power the lights. On another occasion, on that same car, when the garage was doing scheduled maintenance on the car, they "detected" that the battery wasn't in good shape (I suspect they apply a heavy load). Sure enough, it would not start on leaving the garage. So the garage person, not a mechanic, but the office chap, applied a fast charger to the battery, without unplugging it first. The car started and I left. About three weeks later, my dashboard electronics (speedometer, etc, all indicator) froze. Everything. Seconds later, it was working again. This happened more and more over the following months, till it finally died completely. Also, my remote car lock stopped responding. Radio was perfect (because it was off during the charge). I did not then relate these problems with the battery fast charge, but it was surely the culprit. Years later I read that the procedure applies a high voltage (22 volts?) which can fry any electronics not disconnected. But I did not know this, and had to pay for replacements parts... Live and learn. When we learn enough, our cerebrum fills up and we die, because we are not Cylons and can't replace ourselves. >:-P He. While waiting for the replacement instrumentation, I drove around with a multimeter connected to the alternator, tied to the dashboard. That multimeter has a frequency meter. I made a table relating road speed and alternator frequency, on several gears, to avoid crossing the speed limit and getting a fine. ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 10/28/2014 12:29 AM, jdebert wrote:

Although you needn't worry much about overcharging when replacing a small battery with a BIG battery. ....................

- thanks : very satisfied . . . works a charm :) ............... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/28/2014 12:29 AM, jdebert wrote:

Although you needn't worry much about overcharging when replacing a small battery with a BIG battery. ..................

- thanks : most pleased with UPS battery replaced by Car Battery :) ............... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/24/2014 12:44 AM, James Knott wrote:

On 11/23/2014 03:25 PM, ellanios82 wrote:

...

On 10/28/2014 12:29 AM, jdebert wrote:

...

Although you needn't worry much about overcharging when replacing a small battery with a BIG battery. ..................

- thanks : most pleased with UPS battery replaced by Car Battery :) You'd be better off with a deep discharge battery. A car battery isn't designed for UPS service. ..............

thanks - next time i'll get a deep discharge battery [ meantime as UPS only supports my PC which i hope to close down inside 1 minute of power outage . . . hopefully i'll be allright :) ] ........ regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/24/2014 06:33 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote: Usage is

similar (or even weaker) to starting a car in winter after a week or two parked outside.

Like someone living is Spain might know about that..... ;-) - -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlRzg+AACgkQv7M3G5+2DLI+GQCeNV24Af5XwkiK1jxni6dfDC8x 6KAAn2n7cZLTmSPD26gqtEHAMUdMwNpO =SDFW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/24/2014 11:53 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-11-24 20:15, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 11/24/2014 06:33 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote: Usage is

...

similar (or even weaker) to starting a car in winter after a week or two parked outside.

Like someone living is Spain might know about that..... ;-)

Ha!

Did you know that Doctor Zhivago was filmed mostly in Spain, snow included?

You mean the marble dust used to fake the snow?

The charge of the Partisans across the frozen lake was filmed in Spain, too; a cast iron sheet was placed over a dried river-bed, and fake snow (mostly marble dust) was added on top. Some of the winter scenes were filmed in summer with warm temperatures, sometimes of up to 25 °C (86 °F).

It would have been cheaper to film it in Alaska, but then their cars wouldn't start unless the head-bolt heaters were left plugged in all night. - -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlRzjl0ACgkQv7M3G5+2DLJntgCdGJ/VBMNdNteERBxaw/SYmEhV yUIAn2wFcOqMzoc/8HMNnynX2gkrqXsQ =PofL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/24/2014 12:19 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

...

...

Did you know that Doctor Zhivago was filmed mostly in Spain, snow included?

You mean the marble dust used to fake the snow? Nope. You know very little about Spain...

That is very true. But Wiki knows a great deal about Doctor Zhivago. Check your facts my friend.... - -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlRzlc4ACgkQv7M3G5+2DLIkygCfUlRJmFLEyXABiI4V6iD+IKAX ZTAAn31CDWt0qVNNnKZVTRJi/c93v7oL =VxJp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/24/2014 09:53 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Did you know that Doctor Zhivago was filmed mostly in Spain, snow included? ................

- lots of snow 60 kms from Madrid : http://www.spain.info/en/que-quieres/deportes/deportes-invierno/estacion-esq... ..................... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/24/2014 04:50 PM, jdebert wrote:

I'm curious about how long a typical "consumer" UPS can run on battery before it fails. What would the maximum run time be and what limits it. Never know when you'll need it for longer than a few minutes. If I were in the middle of editing media I would want as much time as I can get to get to a decent save point before shutting down. Same for games.

jd

That would depend on the capacity of the UPS and the load it's supporting. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 09:16 AM, jdebert wrote:

for more than a few times.

That's the second post you've made where you suggest UPSs are designed to only function for a "few times". Give a load within the design specs, and time for recharging, the UPS will function until the batteries exceed their service life, at which time the batteries can be replaced. The device isn't going to stop working after a "few times". I have several standard off the shelf consumer UPS units that are on their second or third set of batteries. Each set lasted several years. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. composed on 2014-11-25 22:19 (UTC+0100):

John Andersen wrote:

...

I have several standard off the shelf consumer UPS units that are on their second or third set of batteries. Each set lasted several years.

The problem may be heat disposal. They are very compactly built. Some components degrade with heat.

Batteries especially. :-( Saving electricity by keeping the cooling season thermostat above 72F several degrees is not without offsetting costs. Besides needing to do laundry more often, I've too often gotten less than 30 months out of battery sets, sometimes not even 22. As many as 36 is unusual. Sometimes they swell so badly they cannot even be removed to be replaced. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen composed on 2014-11-25 15:14 (UTC-0800):

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Batteries especially. :-( Saving electricity by keeping the cooling season thermostat above 72F several degrees is not without offsetting costs. Besides needing to do laundry more often, I've too often gotten less than 30 months out of battery sets, sometimes not even 22. As many as 36 is unusual. Sometimes they swell so badly they cannot even be removed to be replaced.

That's over charging, not environmental heat.

It might be that the

Not "the", but well over a dozen models of various ratings from among at least 4 manufacturers. Only once have I ever purchased any particular model more than once. Manufacturer design and testing is probably being done on a predictive basis under ideal environmental conditions with tight spec batteries to survive the manufacturer warranty period, not long term in environmentally friendly energy saver conditions or in dusty corners with no material air movement around the only places they fit and stay out of the way.

charging circuit is poorly matched to the batteries in use, float current too high. A common problem with older UPS designs.

Plastic cases retarding heat radiation instead of metal, and batteries packed together with no air space between, probably don't help. These do speak to the desirability of external battery placement. What stops me from trying external batteries is these things usually need more than one battery, with installation/placement logistics complicating further, times the number of locations needed. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. composed on 2014-11-26 12:36 (UTC+0100):

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Plastic cases retarding heat radiation instead of metal, and batteries packed together with no air space between, probably don't help. These do speak to the desirability of external battery placement. What stops me from trying external batteries is these things usually need more than one battery, with installation/placement logistics complicating further, times the number of locations needed.

You forget the rather intense heat generated when the unit is actively working, during a power failure. They are designed for short periods of "work".

I forget no such thing. Their heat production and fans keep me quite aware, causing running the cooling system more and the heating system less according to season. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 25/11/2014 04:22, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

Meaning, that if the UPS is new, charged, rated for 800VA, and you connect a laptop, it might last for an hour :-)

a laptop have a built in UPS that can last until 9hour, depending of the laptop. it's the main laptop advantage, apart size :-) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 09:03 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-11-25 08:48, jdd wrote:

...

Le 25/11/2014 04:22, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

Meaning, that if the UPS is new, charged, rated for 800VA, and you connect a laptop, it might last for an hour :-)

a laptop have a built in UPS that can last until 9hour, depending of the laptop.

it's the main laptop advantage, apart size :-)

Not when they die. It is maybe cheaper to use an UPS than replace the laptop battery ;-)

I have a home server that is in fact a good but old laptop, without battery, connected to the same ups as the router, tv recorder, and phone.

Of course, maybe it would be better to use dc-dc converters for each of those gadgets, plus a 12-24 volt battery on float charger, plus a solar panel. That would be a dream... dunno where to start that /project/.

At your local lending institution. :-) -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos, et al -- ...and then Carlos E. R. said... % % No, I mean technically. Where to find the convertors and the rest of the % hardware, how to design it... and of course, calculate costs and savings. [snip] Try some marine & cruising lists. My dad lives on a boat and uses DC-DC to power his [desktop] computer, monitor, TV, USB hard drives, and more; that's a very boat-ish and RV-ish thing to do. I have my doubts about whether, for someone with essentially an unlimited power budget compared to the limited house battery on a boat, the power and heat savings will outpace the cost of components for anyone other than the technical hobbyist able to assemble from parts. The other thing about living on a boat is that it's expensive :-) Good luck! :-D -- David T-G See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/email/ See http://justpickone.org/davidtg/tofu.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On November 25, 2014 7:08:54 AM PST, James Knott wrote:

...

No, I mean technically. Where to find the convertors and the rest of

On 11/25/2014 09:13 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote: the

...

hardware, how to design it... and of course, calculate costs and savings.

A lot of telecom and industrial network equipment runs on -48V DC, provided by batteries. Also, many server sites run the computers on high voltage DC, to eliminate the AC-DC and DC-AC conversions. You could probably modify a typical computer power supply for that, but you'd need a string of about a dozen 12V batteries to run it. Computer switching power supplies rectify the incoming AC and use the DC to run a power oscillator at a high frequency that's then passed through a transformer to be rectified and regulated at the desired voltage. In North America, that DC would be in the vicinity of 150V.

That's the most tortured description of a power supply I've ever heard. Transformers do not rectify nor are they used with DC. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 8:27 AM, James Knott wrote:

On 11/25/2014 11:20 AM, John Andersen wrote:

...

...

A lot of telecom and industrial network equipment runs on -48V DC,

...

provided by batteries. Also, many server sites run the computers on high voltage DC, to eliminate the AC-DC and DC-AC conversions. You could probably modify a typical computer power supply for that, but you'd need a string of about a dozen 12V batteries to run it. Computer switching power supplies rectify the incoming AC and use the DC to run a power oscillator at a high frequency that's then passed through a transformer to be rectified and regulated at the desired voltage. In North America, that DC would be in the vicinity of 150V. That's the most tortured description of a power supply I've ever heard.

Transformers do not rectify nor are they used with DC.

I guess I was too brief with a brief description. I was just trying to point out the stages the power passes through.

AC in > rectify > power oscillator > transformer > rectify and regulate

...

DC output.

With high voltage DC, the first rectify can be omitted and, if UPS is used, the DC > AC conversion, in the UPS, is also eliminated. Eliminating those two stages improves the overall efficiency, which is a major consideration in a large server site.

You are conflating things that might be outside your computer with things that are inside it. Everything inside your computer (beyond the power supply) runs on DC. With a DC supply, capable of generating 5 and 12 volts, you don't need anything else. You can power a 19 volt laptop from 2 car batteries for many days on end. All you need is a LM7809, which will set you back $1.95 plus shipping. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 9:51 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 11/25/2014 12:48 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

Everything inside your computer (beyond the power supply) runs on DC.

With a DC supply, capable of generating 5 and 12 volts, you don't need anything else.

You can power a 19 volt laptop from 2 car batteries for many days on end. All you need is a LM7809, which will set you back $1.95 plus shipping.

Which begs the question ... If everything runs on 5V (the electronics) and 12V (motors, burners), then why is 19V needed?

Actually, virtually everything in a laptop runs on 5 volts or less. Even the disk drive and fan motors. 12 volts is pretty much absent inside a laptop. I don't know why they choose to standardize around 19 volts, but I suspect it has something to do with the voltages needed for the screen. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 01:19 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

The laptop will have small DC-to-DC converters and/or regulators to develop the needed voltages. With 19-VDC from the wall-wart they've got plenty of "headroom" to run their regulators. Note that there are other voltages running around in there to power the CPU, which uses something around 2.2-VDC I think.

19V to 2.2V is one hell of a drop! -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 01:39 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 11/25/2014 10:35 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 11/25/2014 01:19 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

The laptop will have small DC-to-DC converters and/or regulators to develop the needed voltages. With 19-VDC from the wall-wart they've got plenty of "headroom" to run their regulators. Note that there are other voltages running around in there to power the CPU, which uses something around 2.2-VDC I think. 19V to 2.2V is one hell of a drop!

Yup, that's why it's done with switching power supplies. Resistive regulators would waste a lot of power.

Indeed, but it still leaves the question open. The switcher for laptops is external, the power-brick or wall-wart. I think that steps down with a transformer, then rectifies, then does the capacitive filtering and stabilization so that the 19VDC is delivered to the laptop. There is no switcher in the laptop that I can see when I take mine apart, just regulator chips. Are we getting confused between the needs of a laptop, specifically for lightness, and the needs of a desktop/tower PC where the switcher is inside the case? I've been asking about the laptop use-case. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 02:17 PM, James Knott wrote:

Here's an article that provides a better explanation than I can here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply

Yes I know all that. I knew it 30 years ago when I was designing switchers for avionics. Its not what I'm asking about. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 02:18 PM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

Right. But I don't think the laptop relies on the wall-wart for regulation.

That opens up a lot of questions. Not least of all that tablet (and my phone), which obviously has a internal SSD or flash storage of some sort, can run from the 5V 1A wallwart.

You might not recognize a small switcher if its components were just connected directly to the motherboard. The transformers can be tiny because of the relatively high (20-KHz?) frequencies.

I recall from designing switchers from avionics that with certain constraints imposed by OTS components there is an optimization point for 5V-when-rectified output of about 20kHz. I managed to get a switcher that fitted in one of the small matchboxes that took input from the aircraft 400V line to power the electronics. OTC has moved forwards; I'll have to see what the parts I can identify are for. However this all gets back to WEIGHT. Why should any of this 'conversion' be inside the laptop (or the phone or tablet) since, when running the DC from the battery is stable? (or at least just dropping rather than doing +/- AC).

I remember some high-end desktop motherboards where you could select CPU voltages in the Rom BIOS. This would be for gaming over-clocking.

OK. So we don't get confused, its best to make it clear when talking about laptops and when talking about desktops/towers. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-11-25 21:17, James Knott wrote:

On 11/25/2014 02:57 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Why should any of this 'conversion' be inside the laptop (or the phone or tablet) since, when running the DC from the battery is stable? (or at least just dropping rather than doing ± AC).

Compare the battery voltage with the operating voltages for the devices. If they're not the same, and they're not, you'll need to convert to the required voltages. CPUs, for example, have lowered operating voltage from 5V, several years ago, to about 2V for modern ones. The reasons for this are heat dissipation and smaller dimensions within the device.

And most digital devices are very strict with the voltage they can use: say 5 ±0.25. Only some, like 4xxx CMOS, can be supplied directly from a battery; 2 to 19 volts, if I recall correctly. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 11/25/2014 01:48 PM, James Knott wrote:

On 11/25/2014 01:35 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

19V to 2.2V is one hell of a drop!

It's a significant voltage drop, but not a power drop with a switching supply. The current would go up by a similar ratio. If a linear regulator were used, you'd lose almost 90% of the power as heat.

Please see my reply to Lew. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 12:51 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

You can power a 19 volt laptop from 2 car batteries for many days

...

on end. All you need is a LM7809, which will set you back $1.95 plus shipping. Which begs the question ... If everything runs on 5V (the electronics) and 12V (motors, burners), then why is 19V needed?

The computer has an internal power supply that converts the more or less standard input voltage to what's required by the computer. This also includes voltage regulation to ensure the equipment runs properly. Otherwise, you'd need a battery that provides 5V and another for 12V and then try to keep them both charged by the same amount. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 01:33 PM, Anton Aylward wrote: The computer has an internal power supply that converts the more or less standard input voltage to what's required by the computer. This also includes voltage regulation to ensure the equipment runs properly. Otherwise, you'd need a battery that provides 5V and another for 12V and then try to keep them both charged by the same amount.

It doesn't quite add up.

If there is a stabilized 12V supply then that can drive the part that needs 12V and *also* drive a step-down to 5V.

Computer power supplies typically have multiple outputs at different voltages. It's not that hard with modern tech.

The step down from 19V to 12v is already loosing 7V.

Yeah, that 7V was too tight. ;-) Actually, you're losing very little. Unlike linear regulators, switching supplies are very efficient. If your linear regulator was passing 1A, then you'd lose 7V x 1A or 7 watts and the output current is never greater than the input, in fact it's slightly less. On the other hand, a switching power supply can provide greater current & lower voltage or greater voltage & lower current (depending on how it's configured) so that you lose very little power in the process. That is, the output power is almost as much as the input. Switching supplies are also very tolerant of input voltage variations. This is why the same power supply can often be run off 120V or 240V.

The only explanation I've found is that the 19V is used in charging of the Lithium-Iron cells. That have a charging voltage of 4.2V and ganged to 4 that makes 16.8V ... Give some headroom and get 19V.

Some computers have optional battery packs, with a different number of cells and terminal voltage.

But if you are running the laptop without an internal battery, that's not an issue.

Heck, if the laptop is an 'always on' device such as re-purposed for a firewall, for example, then take the battery out! Being permanently "on charge' is a good way to kill a battery -- for a variety of reasons.

So you have the battery-less old laptop running of a car battery. Fine.

Now wait, why do you even need the 12V? Perhaps you have a disk drive that is low voltage and you're not using it to burn DVDs. Won't a 6V motorcycle battery do?

John raises the point about the screen, but hey, this under-the-desk, re-purposed-as-a-firewall laptop is running 'headless'.

Does all that make sense?

Actually it has wifi, so why can't I access it though a VPN via my tablet?

Hmmmm, what voltage .... Well my tablet charged from the 5V 1A little 'box' that I plug into my power bar, just like my phone ...

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 02:22 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

The question was "why 19VDC?"

You'll have to ask the whoever designed the computer. I have seen other voltages, so there's nothing sacred about 19V. However, you'll generally find higher voltages with higher power devices. One advantage to using a higher voltage is lower resistance losses. If the target voltage were provided by the power supply, you'd have to worry about how much the voltage would drop in the wires. A lower voltage means higher current for the same amount of power, but the higher current increases the resistance losses. On the other hand, an on board regulator eliminates most of that issue and if the voltage sensor is right at the load, eliminates it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 11:22 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

The question was "why 19VDC?" That meant why, since the electronics run on 5VDC or less and _maybe_ the disk motor needs 12VDC and _maybe_ the DVD burner needs 12VDC is the thing being supplied with 7VDC over its obvious need?

One explanation was battery charging.

Take the battery out and what need is there for more than 12VDC?

Take the DVD burner out and run on a 5VDC SSD and what need is there for the 12VDC?

Just for you Anton, I flipped over my 19v laptop (dell 9400) yanked the battery out, in preparation to measure it, but found it impossible to get probes into the slots where the contacts are. But on the battery it said 11.1Vdc output. This is the second battery I've had for this laptop, and different models were available from Dell, which had different voltages, one was 13, as I recall. I suspect the charging voltage on this 11.1v is somewhere around 14v. So I'm guessing that they need 19 for charging and powering at the same time. When running on battery they may need step-down dc-to-dc regulators inside for all the peripherals, and god only knows what for the screen. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-11-25 20:22, Anton Aylward wrote:

The question was "why 19VDC?" That meant why, since the electronics run on 5VDC or less and _maybe_ the disk motor needs 12VDC and _maybe_ the DVD burner needs 12VDC is the thing being supplied with 7VDC over its obvious need?

My guess is that it was (years ago) needed to power the display fluorescent backlight. When running on battery, a step-up converter switched on. This is no longer the case, they use LEDs, so we have /tradition/. In industry, tradition means not having to redesign proven practices. Just a guess. :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 11/26/2014 12:49 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

Seems logical enough to me to be believable

At one time, believing the world was flat seemed logical. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 12:48 PM, John Andersen wrote:

You are conflating things that might be outside your computer with things that are inside it.

Everything inside your computer (beyond the power supply) runs on DC.

With a DC supply, capable of generating 5 and 12 volts, you don't need anything else.

I'm not conflicting anything. I just described what happens within a switching power supply, as is used in a PC. With that box, you have AC coming in and DC coming out. The stages I showed were part of that process and nothing else. As I tried to explain, by using high voltage DC, you can bypass the DC > AC in the UPS and also the AC > high voltage DC in the power supply, which in turn provides a bit better efficiency than running AC between the UPS and computer power supply. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2014 12:48 PM, John Andersen wrote:

All you need is a LM7809, which will set you back $1.95 plus shipping. A 7809 is 9V @ 1A. The AC adapter for my ThinkPad puts out 20V @ 3.25A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-11-25 16:08, James Knott wrote:

On 11/25/2014 09:13 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

No, I mean technically. Where to find the convertors and the rest of the hardware, how to design it... and of course, calculate costs and savings.

A lot of telecom and industrial network equipment runs on -48V DC,

I know. I'm a 5ESS specialist :-) But it was very expensive equipment. I believe there is a range of cheaper items on 12/24 volts, which apparently is common on home solar powered setups.

provided by batteries. Also, many server sites run the computers on high voltage DC, to eliminate the AC-DC and DC-AC conversions.

makes sense.

You could probably modify a typical computer power supply for that, but you'd need a string of about a dozen 12V batteries to run it.

I saw, time ago, 12V desktop computer power supplies. You "simply" replace the original unit.

Computer switching power supplies rectify the incoming AC and use the DC to run a power oscillator at a high frequency that's then passed through a transformer to be rectified and regulated at the desired voltage. In North America, that DC would be in the vicinity of 150V.

Yep. What I was thinking, though, is to power the laptop that I use as server with a dc-dc adapter, instead of the original ac-dc adapter, and do the same thing for several low power gadgets, like the router or the wireless phone. I think I have seen laptop adapters for cars, ie, 12v. If I can not get suitable solar panels, the project is moot: as David T-G says, it does not make sense as I have "unlimited" ac. Interesting idea, looking at boating things. I live by a harbour, so there should be things. (the desktop would remain on mains only) [rant] Unfortunately, our government killed alternative power initiatives, via heavy taxes and removing incentives. Thus the solar home gadgetry has almost disappeared from shops. They chose to pay tribute to the traditional heavy electricity players instead. [/rant] -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 11/24/2014 01:50 PM, jdebert wrote:

I'm curious about how long a typical "consumer" UPS can run on battery before it fails. What would the maximum run time be and what limits it. Never know when you'll need it for longer than a few minutes. If I were in the middle of editing media I would want as much time as I can get to get to a decent save point before shutting down. Same for games.

jd

I assume you mean how many years can you use the original battery before you replace it with a new one, as opposed to how long a "typical consumer" UPS can run after any given power failure. The expected run time after a power failure is printed on the box the UPS came in, assuming you know the load your computer imposes on it.You can pretty much read that off of the back panel of the computer, the monitor, etc. Add them up, do some calculations and you can get an estimate of runtime. But beyond that, there is the issue of declining run time as the battery ages. Unfortunately this is harder to determine. Some units have little run-time estimate displays built in, which can give you an estimate of remaining runtime. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 25/11/14 04:03, Felix Miata wrote:

jdebert composed on 2014-11-24 13:50 (UTC-0800):

...

I'm curious about how long a typical "consumer" UPS can run on battery before it fails. What would the maximum run time be and what limits it. Never know when you'll need it for longer than a few minutes. If I were in the middle of editing media I would want as much time as I can get to get to a decent save point before shutting down. Same for games.

What Carlos wrote, but note I've bought a lot of these over a lot of years. Every one came in a box and/or with a manual with the information to answer jdebert's question. Just remember performance does not improve as the batteries age. Once batteries are 2 years old, maybe sooner, you should be routinely running the unit's self check to ensure you won't suffer disappointment when the power does go out.

I have openSUSE 13.1 (fully patched and up to date) installed on my Dell Inspiron 1525 laptop. I'm running KDE 4.14.3 as I prefer it to the other desktops. I've just plugged a brand new, fully charged 12v car battery into a free USB port on the laptop, and now it won't boot. What do you guys recommend? Should I upgrade to oS 13.2? If so, how? The USB port looks a bit frazzled. Bob -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.11.10-21-desktop Distro: openSUSE 13.1 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.14.3 Uptime: 06:00am up 2 days 20:16, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.14, 0.28 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

I should have been more specific. Sorry. That's what happens when interrupted and distracted. It's already pretty well established that more battery means more run time, provided the UPS is up to the task. Assuming, naturally, that the load is within the UPS range. But the UPS itself also has limitations: It may not be designed to operate even unloaded for more than a few minutes or even for a few times. It may not be able to charge a battery more than a few times. In this case it does not matter how much battery you have or what the load is. Industrial UPS and solar/wind UPS makers do tell you what all the specs are. Fortunately, in nearly all cases, they are designed to run continuously. But that is not the same for "consumer" backup UPS. I have yet to see one with anything about how long one could run given enough battery. In fact, the manufacturers all say, "Don't do it!" I guess it's better to just avoid taking a risk and pay the much higher price for one that actually says it will run continuously. jd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org