On Sun, 2006-06-11 at 22:18 +0100, Peter Onion wrote:

In my experience since 5.2 (the first SuSE I used) upto 10.0 SuSE used to get it right first time... Now it seems they are following the M$ method of letting their customers find the bugs in new releases :-( Peter (sticking with 10.0).

Not singling Peter out, he's been far more tame than many here. First off -- to show I'm quite unbiased towards Novell-SuSE -- I'm a heavily biased Fedora Core user (have been since Red Hat Linux 4.2) for my personal/professional desktop, and I have to admit that I make more money deploying RHEL/RHD than SLES/NLD for enterprises (although I still have a good amount of SLES 8.x/9.x experience). I came on to this list to play with SL 10.1 for x86-64 after continuing to deal with a few Red Hat decisions on x86-64 that continued to erk me -- although some other, key differences between FC and SL have now kept me with FC (not of any fault or limitation of SL -- it's a long story). So secondly -- with that said -- I rather tire of the comments I've seen on SuSE Linux 10.1 that I can only call "rhetoric." Other than YOU and some update utility/policy changes in 10.1, I've yet to see anything that falls under the label of "buggy" or other, common Microsoft demonizations. I don't think they are justified and unless you want to give _specifics_, please limit them. In many cases, I've seen Novell-SuSE developers admit to their changes and issues and -- I'm sorry -- it happens when you change things. You can't always test everything before it reaches the users. People talk about "testing" but the reality is that integration and regression testing a distro still doesn't give you the broadness that the market's end-users itself will have. Even a comprehensive set of systems under test in even the most comprehensive lab environment often only gives you a 1 or 2-sigma feel, and nothing like the common 3+ sigma feeback end users will instantly give you upon release. Again, I haven't seen issues beyond YOU/updating -- something that was admittedly changed. It's not realistic/applicable to demonize a release for one thing that has nothing to do with usability. It's the same, chronic and non-applicable problem we have with people who label distros because they couldn't install it -- it gives you absolutely no sense of using the distro. Just my $0.02 ... I couldn't hold on to them any longer over the past few weeks. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------- Illegal Immigration = "Representation Without Taxation" -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Well, I have made some comments that were passed to me by a very good and very knowledgeable friend with a lot more Linux experience than I have. He did not have a good experiece with 10.1 and, consequently is sticking with 10. Now, I tried the live DVD over the weekend. For me it looks very nice and I was very happy to report that my Canon LiDE 50 now works :-)))) that is more due to the SANE project being updated though than anything that SuSE have really done. My one single gripe is that my monitor (LG Electronics Studio Works 700s) is no longer in the database of monitors. Why? It's a fairly recent model. I know I can set the monitor up manually; but in this day and age???? Surely that isn't a bug...or is it? -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Sunday 11 June 2006 22:55, Michael W Cocke wrote:

Small bit of irony for you - I'm currently looking at FC5 because SuSE 10.1 is such a hash on my desktop here....

Mike-

Although I'm holding off using 10.1 just yet after the reports on this list (only running 1 server thus far) and the fact that it wouldn't upgrade my desktop from version 10 (fails on detecting my original package selection). My experience with FC5 is nothing short of hellish almost every system I've had to use it on fails during the install falling over on basic hardware detection, it's getting to the point where I'm refusing to install it as it's not worth my while. I can appreciate that the changes to Linux have caused a few hiccups with Suse 10.1 but it's not the only distro to suffer and I think in the grand scheme of things Suse has come out better. Matthew -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 09:12 +0100, Matthew Stringer wrote:

Although I'm holding off using 10.1 just yet after the reports on this list (only running 1 server thus far) and the fact that it wouldn't upgrade my desktop from version 10 (fails on detecting my original package selection). My experience with FC5 is nothing short of hellish almost every system I've had to use it on fails during the install falling over on basic hardware detection, it's getting to the point where I'm refusing to install it as it's not worth my while.

Not coincidentally, Fedora Core 5 changed its Anaconda installer radically from the previous version. It now uses YUM natively for packages. The direct Internet feed (so Fedora Extras and 3rd party repositories can be tapped directly during install) didn't happen before it's release, but that will be added to Fedora Core 6 (with probably even more bugs for that initial release). But I've noted that various USB adapters for EEPROM storage devices can really throw off its storage auto-detection. So I disable/remote some devices before installation. Otherwise, I really haven't run into anything.

I can appreciate that the changes to Linux have caused a few hiccups with Suse 10.1 but it's not the only distro to suffer and I think in the grand scheme of things Suse has come out better.

You guys are talking about merely the _installer_. Installers will _always_ have issues. Really weird things will _always_ "creep up" between versions that never appeared before. On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 09:18 +0100, Kevanf1 wrote:

I have to say that Mandrake (it was Mandrake because it happened pre-Mandriva days) went through a bad patch with a couple of releases. I don't recall exactly which version it was but it may have been the one just before the Connectiva acquisition. Anyway, I gave it a whirl and it was truly awful. It ran like it was trying to work through treacle and many things just did not work.

Installer? Or actually running it? Please differentiate. Also remember that some releases (e.g., .0) also change a lot of things, so things are less integration tested.

I can honestly say that they have bounced back in a big fashion now. Hopefully SuSE will do the same. I'm starting to wonder why this happens though? I have heard rumblings about the kernel being the problem in some cases? Ok, this doesn't explain the updates troubles agreed but perhpas it is responsible for some errors and problems? Perhaps FC5 is having the same due to kernel problems?

Kernel changes in how PCI, USB and other things are handled *DO* affect the installer. So what might have worked in a prior Anaconda, DrakX or YaST version how acts _differently_, so the installer now has an issue.

I don't claim any authority on these ramblings they are just that, ramblings from thoughts going around my head. It does need thinking about though.

Again, you will *NEVER* get a "good installer." Things change in hardware as well as the kernel. The PC platform is just too much of a mis-mesh of different vendors, non-standards compliance, etc... If you want a "perfect install experience," you should get an Apple. They control the platform and the non-sense -- although some "superstore" peripherals can still "dork up" the install experience too. -- Bryan J. Smith Professional, technical annoyance mailto:b.j.smith@ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------- The existence of Linux has far more to do with the breakup of AT&T's monopoly than anything Microsoft has ever done. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com