And you know that Nepomuk is also an acronym? - Networked Environment for Personal, Ontology-based Management of Unified Knowledge. On 02/03/11 20:58, Bob Williams wrote:

On Wednesday 02 Mar 2011 03:06:40 David C. Rankin wrote:

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Curious about a strange package name with an interesting definition prompted a bit of investigation:

[...]

...

"Ontologies necessary for the Nepomuk semantic desktop"

I'm all for having a rich and diverse vocabulary, but reaching so far back into the Greek vernacular... I just have to ask, "What were they thinking...?"

Think about it - "Open Semantic Collaboration Architecture Foundation (OSCAF) ontologies and reference code development." -- That's a mouthful.

What happened to simplicity? I have enough trouble remembering: 'at', 'grep', 'diff', 'sed', 'awk' and 'patch', much less "Open Semantic Collaboration Architecture Foundation (OSCAF) ontologies and reference code development."

I take my hat off to the originator. That is one bit of creative linguistics -- second to none ;p

My online dictionary tells me:

Ontology n: the metaphysical study of the nature of being and existence

I suggest follow-ups move to the OT list.

Bob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin said the following on 03/02/2011 07:05 PM:

I sure hope new development doesn't go down this path where we have to type "man acronym" to make sense of what is being referenced :)

To late, but never mind ... http://www.acronymfinder.com/ http://www.acronymsearch.com/index.php Neither help with 'squatcheloid' -- He had occasional flashes of silence, that made his conversation perfectly delightful. Sydney Smith, referring to Macaulay -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 2. März 2011, 17:49:21 schrieb Peter Nikolic:

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Far from indicating a wide vocabulary or wide knowledge of third-world mythological structures, I think the basis for these is a lack of the imagination required to devise names that might actually trigger an association to the use or the purpose of the underlying software. In other words, it's the exact opposite of genuinely 'creative linguistics'.

Spot on

Pete .

http://learn.to/quote Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 02 March 2011 19:34:00 Stan Goodman wrote:

On Wednesday 02 March 2011 19:55:34 Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Mittwoch, 2. März 2011, 17:49:21 schrieb Peter Nikolic:

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...

Far from indicating a wide vocabulary or wide knowledge of third-world mythological structures, I think the basis for these is a lack of the imagination required to devise names that might actually trigger an association to the use or the purpose of the underlying software. In other words, it's the exact opposite of genuinely 'creative linguistics'.

Spot on

Pete .

http://learn.to/quote

Sven

When annoyed by a substantive argument, the best policy is to find a punctuation mistake.

Nail on the head .. Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.7-0.7-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.5.5 (KDE 4.5.5) "release 1" 19:42 up 5 days 0:41, 4 users, load average: 0.19, 0.14, 0.10 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 02 March 2011 22:45:33 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 2. März 2011, 20:43:07 schrieb Peter Nikolic:

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...

When annoyed by a substantive argument, the best policy is to find a punctuation mistake.

Nail on the head ..

Sure, somebody pointing out that you fail to stick to the netiquette must be wrong and just wants to disagree with your opinion. – Or maybe he just wants to point out that you fail to obey the netiquette…

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Quoting

Sven

Do you send that link in response to every message you think is too long? Sorry, by the way, that I failed to notice that both these messages are from the same person. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 March 2011 07:45:01 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 2. März 2011, 23:39:42 schrieb Stan Goodman:

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Do you send that link in response to every message you think is too long?

If I try to read an email and cannot because its quoting makes me scroll forever before I actually get to any answer of the quoted content, that passage of the netiquette comes to my mind and thus I send it in order to get threads readable. The problem is that people take this personal instead of just acknowledging that there are reasons for these hints regarding quoting, i.e. readability. If it would just be my personal taste then those things would not be mentioned in the netiquette, would they?

Sven

you know what Yawnnnnnnnnnnnn! Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.7-0.7-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.5.5 (KDE 4.5.5) "release 1" 08:20 up 5 days 13:18, 4 users, load average: 0.02, 0.07, 0.03 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 02 March 2011 22:41:04 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 2. März 2011, 20:34:00 schrieb Stan Goodman:

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...

http://learn.to/quote

When annoyed by a substantive argument, the best policy is to find a punctuation mistake.

Or there might be some people that can distinguish between the content of a thread and its style. Both of you failed style-wise. I did not state anything about the content – reading something into it just shows how hard you try.

Please learn to quote, no matter of what topic a thread is.

Sven

In my private view, it is reasonable to expect that names of invented entities in a complex system be somehow related to their function. "Nepomuk", for example, fails that test for me; do you think that it is more informative and mnemonic for most other users? What is it supposed to suggest to say to, say, 80% of the users? 20%? 2%? Same for "Akonadi" and, for that matter, with "Plasma", which already has several related definitions stemming from its Greek root. My dictionary (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate) offers 1) "Something moulded", 2) "Fluid part of blood", 3) "Protoplasm", 4) "Collection of charged particles". It is possible that you can see why this has something to do with desktop GUIs, but user, having this term thrown at him is unlikely to be that talented. I am amazed that both of you have reacted to my observation as you have. And in such an obvious juvenile fashion (snidely calling attention to a misplaced quotation mark, because you have nothing more pertinent to remark). What I learn from it is that you are both involved in the tendency to give weird name of this kind, and have a proprietary interest in them. I didn't know before who was responsible for them. You can rest easy, as I have no power to change names, or to cause you to bear the convenience of users at least as much as your own ego- massaging. On the other hand, my comment was not off-topic for this list, and I freedom of speech is a sacred value where I live and on the Internet. Nobody here is obliged to stand up and salute for everything you do. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 March 2011 09:48:40 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 2. März 2011, 23:36:18 schrieb Stan Goodman:

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I am amazed that both of you have reacted to my observation as you have. And in such an obvious juvenile fashion (snidely calling attention to a misplaced quotation mark, because you have nothing more pertinent to remark). What I learn from it is that you are both involved in the tendency to give weird name of this kind, and have a proprietary interest in them. I didn't know before who was responsible for them. You can rest easy, as I have no power to change names, or to cause you to bear the convenience of users at least as much as your own ego- massaging. On the other hand, my comment was not off-topic for this list, and I freedom of speech is a sacred value where I live and on the Internet. Nobody here is obliged to stand up and salute for everything you do.

Honestly, please stop trying so hard to take things personally! My only intention was to point out that your quoting style does not serve the netiquette – anything more you read into it should make you think about why you cannot just accept that somebody gave you a hint regarding well-known and documented guides regarding mailinglists.

Sven

I see. Then you were not at all annoyed by my remarks about cockamamie nomenclature. OK. I look forward to seeing many more such warnings directed to others. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 3. März 2011, 09:06:29 schrieb Stan Goodman:

I see. Then you were not at all annoyed by my remarks about cockamamie nomenclature. OK. I look forward to seeing many more such warnings directed to others.

Given your reaction it seems that it might not be a good idea no matter how sensible it may be. But I'm sure that it will happen from time to time when I forget about people taking everything personally for a moment. On the other hand most people on this list seem to know how to quote or at least do not do full quotes. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 March 2011 10:09:30 Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Thu, 2011-03-03 at 00:36 +0200, Stan Goodman wrote:

It could very well be what happens here: you make a working name for something during development - long before the thing sees the light of day - and with no intention that the thing really be called that when it is released into the wild. But references pop up, and eventually you are stuck with the working name being the final product name. As such, we now try hard to come up with a good name before we tell anyone about it. And let me tell you, finding a good name is often as hard as making the app itself. Especially when you factor in that the name should be as useful to native and occasional English speakers.

Thank you for the above. I can easily understand the problems, which must surely occur for others as well, in many contexts -- automobile model names, for example -- and that it is a real struggle. The solution, however, cannot be to make names equally unintelligible for everybody. Ask ten passers-by on the street, products of any of the cultures represented among Swedish immigrants, what associations he has with "Nepomuk", for example. To me, it sounded like an Inuit work, which led me to "blubber".

In Interface Design 101, a rule that is repeated to the point of distraction is that:

(1) if there is a parallel in the real world to what you are trying to accomplish, then use the real world metaphor to your advantage via naming, control choices, etc. The user will 'catch on' much faster.

How true.

(2) It there is no parallel in the real world, do not confuse the user by choosing names etc that imply that there is a relation to something they may already know/understand. The user will recognize that this is something new and needs to be learned.

Also. These are both exactly the point I wanted to make.

So, where in the real world do you have desktop search engines? I lean towards #2 as being the category they fit in. At least for most people (bibliophiles aside). Same for the other admittedly oddly named items. But I suspect the name is not because of reason 2. It is probably more the result of the development naming trap.

BTW, I thought definition 4 for Plasma was not too bad for the Desktop use.

Definition #4 was "A collelction of charged particles". Chacun a son gout. Thanks again.

Yours sincerely,

Roger Oberholtzer

OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST

Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________

Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se

-- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 March 2011 16:05:56 Rodney Baker wrote:

On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:06:18 Stan Goodman wrote:

...

In my private view, it is reasonable to expect that names of invented entities in a complex system be somehow related to their function. [...]

<off-topic> That is a very Hebrew way of looking at the world, Stan (and that is not intended to be a negative or derogatory comment, btw, merely an observation). Hebrew thought/language tends to be oriented around function (given that all Hebrew words have a verbal root) whereas Greco-Roman thought (which has heavily influenced most of the Western world particularly in the sciences)is concerned first with form.

Thank you for offering me your take in a civil and relevant manner. In the same spirit, however, I'm afraid I don't buy it. I cannot believe for a minute that anybody can defend the use of beautiful (for want of a better word at the moment) term for a complex and unfamiliar entity, in a context in which the declared object is to inform and educate the potential users of the new and unfamiliar entity. Read Roger's very reasonable remarks about terminology; Roger, as far as I can guess is untrammelled by Hebrew semantics, and is a product of European culture with an Indo-European language; yet he quotes for us the quite culture-free rules for inventing terms in GUI design. The same is true of David Rankin, who started this thread. My own guess is that the terminology at issue is the product of egoism back at Rancho KDE (no names, please).

Not that I want to start a philosophical argument here, but it was just an interesting comment that caused me to reflect.

Nor am I anxious for confrontation.

What is interesting to observe on mailing lists such as this is the diversity of cultural paradigms that contributors bring, which can result in people having slightly (or sometimes wildly) different interpretations for certain words. This in turn means that even though we use the same terms, we run into miscommunications and misundersrtanding because the same words don't mean the same thing to every reader.

It's well known that intercultural communication is a difficult, and that words often change meanings across cultural boundaries. What semantic shadings do you reckon are undergone by "Nepomuk", for example, or "Akonadi". as they wend their way to Bolivia, Netherlands, Kazakhstan, Malaysia, Nepal, Zaire, and Fiji? I think people in all those places would scratch their heads in similar incomprehension. And is it really necessary to load "Plasma" with a new and novel meaning with no detectable connection to those already known to most educated people (with the exception of the journalists who enquired of a particle physicist about where he was getting the blood from for use in his experiments -- that's a true story). The difficulty of intercultural communication is n challenge; it is not an excuse for making things more difficult than they already are. Those working (free, of course) for KDE ought really to consider the users, who bear the brunt of their exercises in obscure terminology.

Many of our expectations (and uses of language) are paradigmatic, even though we aren't necessarily conscious of it.

I hope this thread will soon die. Anyway, I have no expectation that it will change anything.

</off-topic>

-- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 March 2011 18:17:21 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Stan Goodman [03-03-11 11:04]:

...

On Thursday 03 March 2011 16:05:56 Rodney Baker wrote:

...

On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:06:18 Stan Goodman wrote:

</off-topic>

off-topic, declared or not has a place and this is not the place. Please continue this in the proper location, opensuse-offtopic, or drop it completely.

You have to take that up with the one who inserted the declaration. It wasn't me. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 March 2011 20:13:35 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Stan Goodman [03-03-11 11:42]:

...

On Thursday 03 March 2011 18:17:21 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Stan Goodman [03-03-11 11:04]:

...

On Thursday 03 March 2011 16:05:56 Rodney Baker wrote:

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On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:06:18 Stan Goodman wrote:

</off-topic>

off-topic, declared or not has a place and this is not the place. Please continue this in the proper location, opensuse-offtopic, or drop it completely.

You have to take that up with the one who inserted the declaration. It wasn't me.

Why do YOU presuppose that every post where you were the last in the thread is *directed* at *you*?

Because the note referenced sentences written by me, was below a paragraph written by me, and started with a sentence that said "Stan Goodman wrote...". I took those as clues.

And why is it *beyond* you to observe the list posting expectations?

The *entire* thread is/was *off-topic*.

It was indeed, right from the beginning. I didn't start it.

</done>

I've asked for it to end. I won't respond to any more. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 03 March 2011 18:44:14 Anders Johansson wrote:

On Thursday 03 March 2011 17:01:08 Stan Goodman wrote:

...

semantic shadings do you reckon are undergone by "Nepomuk", for example,

Nepomuk is a name, just like Stan. There are people called Nepomuk. I think you have just managed to insult them

...

The difficulty of intercultural communication is n challenge; it is not an excuse for making things more difficult than they already are. Those working (free, of course) for KDE ought really to consider the users, who bear the brunt of their exercises in obscure terminology.

Why is the problem of intercultural communication always resolved by having everything in English?

For the same reason that international communicatons were handles only in Latin for many centuries. It's the language that most people can speak/read/write. Swahili wouldn't work. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org