Ben Rosenberg wrote:
It should read. "We'll give you the best system possible with as easy of an install as we can, but if your a newbie and think that it should just work without knowing anything...go buy a Mac" but even then something would require some work. My wife still has to boot into OS9 because her "supported" external USB CDR won't work in OSX. Computers suck most of the time..and are not VCR's so they require work. I've install 100's of Windows boxes with all types of drivers for tons of different pieces of hardware and it's not all that easy. It's "easier" if you've been working with it for a while. Hence I have very little trouble with Solaris, Linux or Windows. If you come from the Windows world and expect Linux to be the same...forget it.
I've got at least 35 co-workers by now who have 8.0 working and love it. They have printers, scanners and all sorts of stuff hooked to these boxes...but then again they knew the difference between OS installation and configuration.
Sorry I don't sympathize with this attitude of " This should just work and if not someone should tell me how to make it work without me having to do anything to help the process ". *shrug*
-=Ben
Excuse us Ben, But that is a pretty high and mighty attitude. Now we all know how good you are. It's too bad we all don't have the great depth and expanse of knowledge that you do. Maybe you should be running slackware where your opinions would be held in higher esteem. SuSE is supposed to be "user friendly". I have hesitated and resisted making any comments here but your attitude and demeanor have driven me to it. Now I must. It has nothing to do with other OS's or expecting someone to hold my hand. I work at it as hard as anyone on this list......Here is why SuSE support is not up to it: I did a new install of 8.0 about a month ago. I still cannot make my PCI modem work. This is the same modem that worked flawlessly with 7.0 & 7.2. RH6.0 before that. I configured the modem with Yast 1 at that time. Alas, Yast 1, the best install tool they ever had is no longer available. SuSE doesn't say support is for the installation. They say that support is for the installation of a basic operating system. To me that means at least the printer and modem should work. Otherwise what use is it? So far, after 27 days, and after waiting 19 days for a reply, they have only advised me to go to a help page. Now, tell me there isn't something wrong when a piece of hardware that worked previoulsy on two of their older OS's,and will not now work on a later version, and they cannot be bothered to tell me why. I have an OS that is useless. Maybe I should be running slackware. At least I would know where I stand. That is pretty poor support in my book. I really don't want to get into a squabble with anyone on this list and that is all I have to say. May all of the high and mighty flame me if they must,I will not reply. I suppose now I will be "blacklisted" and receive no more help. Very dissapointing to say the least. SuSE support is NOT up to it ! Period! Bob Stia
Excuse us Ben, But that is a pretty high and mighty attitude. Now we all know how good you are. It's too bad we all don't have the great depth and expanse of knowledge that you do. Maybe you should be running slackware where your opinions would be held in higher esteem. SuSE is supposed to be "user friendly".
Oh, its very user friendly :). I love it. And nothing wrong with old Slacky you know.
I have hesitated and resisted making any comments here but your attitude and demeanor have driven me to it. Now I must. It has nothing to do with other OS's or expecting someone to hold my hand. I work at it as hard as anyone on this list......Here is why SuSE support is not up to it:
He's being direct to point out some realities...Really its IT wide, not just SuSE or Linux. Thats the bs David Coursey puts out, another clueless IT reporter who needs another job (along with that guy from Forbes).
I did a new install of 8.0 about a month ago. I still cannot make my PCI modem work. This is the same modem that worked flawlessly with 7.0 & 7.2. RH6.0 before that. I configured the modem with Yast 1 at that time. Alas, Yast 1, the best install tool they ever had is no longer available.
Yast1 was simple and direct, will be missed, but you know...I don't miss it as much as I once had.
SuSE doesn't say support is for the installation. They say that support is for the installation of a basic operating system. To me that means at least the printer and modem should work. Otherwise what use is it?
No, you're wrong. That is not a basic OS installation, thats peripherial. How can SuSE possibly support all the modems out there? Or Printers. Its not their problem. Basic OS installation is this: Can you install it on supported hardware? (No doubt you'd get someone trying to install the x86 version on a Mac). Do you see the login in screen? Thats probably about it.
So far, after 27 days, and after waiting 19 days for a reply, they have only advised me to go to a help page. Now, tell me there isn't something wrong when a piece of hardware that worked previoulsy on two of their older OS's,and will not now work on a later version, and they cannot be bothered to tell me why. I have an OS that is useless. Maybe I should be running slackware. At least I would know where I stand.
Leave feedback at feedback@suse.com.
That is pretty poor support in my book. I really don't want to get into a squabble with anyone on this list and that is all I have to say. May all of the high and mighty flame me if they must,I will not reply. I suppose now I will be "blacklisted" and receive no more help. Very dissapointing to say the least.
Don't be silly....You're entitled to be frustrated and have your opinions. I was pretty pissed when I installed 8.0 and lost my mouse, but managed to figure it out myself, luckily. Why would anyone flame you? As for blacklisting, there loss to those who do that.
SuSE support is NOT up to it ! Period!
No support is up to it, period. Its an expensive drain that provides zero profit and when the economy is bad its one of the first things to get cut. Sad but true.
Bob Stia
Matt
* R. Stia (rnr@sanctum.com) [020615 22:59]: ::Excuse us Ben, But that is a pretty high and mighty attitude. Now we all ::know how good you are. It's too bad we all don't have the great depth ::and expanse of knowledge that you do. Maybe you should be running ::slackware where your opinions would be held in higher esteem. SuSE is ::supposed to be "user friendly". My expansive knowledge has come from 5 years of screaming at the monitor, driving my wife nuts on a daily basis, reading the 40+ books on my shelf and generally digging in and asking the dumbest questions imaginable. What I didn't do was say things like " This doesn't do A. so it sucks, this doesn't do B. so I'm formatting my harddrive." I knew that Linux didn't have the mainstream support yet..but it would. Heck I bitched for 3.5 years there was no Quicken port and I screamed like a banshee for years that there was no Quicktime so I could watch trailers and other such things...CrossOver is a God sent. I just don't like bullshit FUD and misconceptions. I don't like people blaming LINUX for OEM and ISV failures to support their products such as printers and the like. The last figures I saw put LINUX at a higher desktop usage then Mac...but we STILL have issues just getting printers to print. I really don't like people who whine about things that with a little effort they can get help on..and instead they blame their own failings on the software they chose to use. If you wanna know why I don't use Slackware or Debian...it's this simple. I started getting into Linux w/ SuSE and I like it. I see no reason to change. Previous to that I was a user of OS/2 and NeXTStep...mainly OS/2 and if that wouldn't have gone away pretty much. I would still be using it. I'm not trying to be arrogant and I was pretty jovial until I started reading things like "Niche OS" and hearing complaints that I hear from CNet and ZDNet MS pundits that haven't been true in a very long time. And when people play the " if it doesn't do this were going back to Windows..nanananana :P " card then I say " Hey, GREAT! Go back to Windows ..don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. It's not arrogance..it's being fed up with the same old excuses and crap. It took me a long time to learn the very, very little bit about LINUX and UNIX that I know. I'm not GURU..I just don't give up when stuff doesn't work and I'm not afraid to RTFM ..also if that doesn't work...if I'm to thick to understand what I'm reading I ask questions. No matter how stupid they may seem. Sometimes I need my head jarred. I realize SuSE's support rules aren't as well layed out as one would have them and if you don't like the $2.00 support that ya get then ask the question here. You may not get an instant answer...I know I answer questions as I can. But I do work about 70 hours a week and have about 20 hours of commute time a week. But I try. And so do many others. Based on the fact that out of $80 for a Pro box..about $5.00 of that is prolly what your charged for "installation" support..and that doesn't even pay 1 hour of a good support tech's salary. They do a pretty good job with hosting these mailing lists and the support database on the website is 1st rate. SuSE does alright by it's customers...much better then others yet worse then some. Them's the brakes. ;) ::That is pretty poor support in my book. I really don't want to get into ::a squabble with anyone on this list and that is all I have to say. May ::all of the high and mighty flame me if they must,I will not reply. I ::suppose now I will be "blacklisted" and receive no more help. Very ::dissapointing to say the least. Nahh..your not the first person to bitch at me or to bitch at someone else on the list when they loose their patience. If you ask a question and I know the answer..I prolly wouldn't even remember your email address. I'd just give ya the answer or at least a heads up about where to find the docs that explain it better then I could. Believe me..my skin and many others around here is much thicker then you would think. :) Cheers! And remember ... Have fun! -=Ben --=====-----=====-- mailto:ben@whack.org --=====-- Tell me what you believe..I tell you what you should see. -DP --=====-----=====--
On Sunday 16 June 2002 11:05, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
If you wanna know why I don't use Slackware or Debian...it's this simple. I started getting into Linux w/ SuSE and I like it. I see no reason to change. Previous to that I was a user of OS/2 and NeXTStep...mainly OS/2 and if that wouldn't have gone away pretty much. I would still be using it. I
Well maybe that's part of the point. In the Linux world, 'newbie' means 'I've been managing systems for the last twenty-five years, and I thought maybe it was time to look at this, but there's a few wrinkles I can't quite iron out ...' Now some of what you're getting is people who have believed what they have heard about Linux being ready for the desktop. Which perhaps it is if you want to spend 20 hours a week RTFM. Most people don't. They don't have the time. And if they start to make the time - I have - they do not have the kind of basic knowledge that manuals take for granted. (When I had to do my first installation of a gizmo as root, I was so unsure of what it was that I should be doing that I took the dog for a walk five times in one day before I dared type out the necessary commands. And I don't even have a dog any more.) Then they find out that if they voice dissatisfaction, they are 'whining'. I hate that word - it's so damned condescending. Teachers use it about children in classrooms : usually, when you look hard and well, you find that there is something in the environment that is causing the children to act that way, and a good teacher can sort it out. Any road up, I don't whine ; I roar and throw hammers across the room. That's genetic : my grandfather used to do the same thing when he - a retired ship's engineer - was fixing the car. When I find odd things out about Suse - like the Samsung laser printer, here, advertised as Suse-ready, does not fix the way it says it should in the manual, or that the driver shipped with Suse 7.2 for the HP 850 only prints out garbage - then I am apt to throw a wobbly. (I know that it's going to take me three weeks to get it fixed - and that subsequently I will realize that it should have taken me five minutes). Unlike Grandad, I can't swear in Hindi but e-mail being what it is, I may find a second or two to vent my rage at some poor guy from SuSe. (Who do try. They tried to help me with the ADSL - which does *not* work the same way in France as it does in Germany, and so does not - by any means - work straight out of the box). But then I also throw wobblies about people who spell 'lose' with two 'o's Which, you see, is me. Which is the whole point. Best wishes Timothy Mason
--=====-- Tell me what you believe..I tell you what you should see. -DP
"Just because things exist doesn't mean you have to go round believing in them" (Granny Weatherwax)
--=====-----=====--
[R. Stia]
SuSE is supposed to be "user friendly". [...] Here is why SuSE support is not up to it:
Hi, people. It is all a question of perception and experience, of course. In my own case, I've been around for a good while, tried a few other distributions in the past, and have been sticking with SuSE for a few years now, as I find they do rather well! :-)
Alas, Yast 1, the best install tool they ever had is no longer available.
Yast2 is not _that_ different, you know. It is true that particular attention was paid so installation gets easier for those having little knowledge or experience with Linux. On the other hand, I've been pleasantly surprised to discover that Yast2 has these fine knobs I needed to repair my own (non-Yast related) mistakes. The look is undoubtedly different, but the underlying principles are similar.
I did a new install of 8.0 about a month ago. I still cannot make my PCI modem work. This is the same modem that worked flawlessly with 7.0 & 7.2. RH6.0 before that. I configured the modem with Yast 1 at that time.
I too have my own little problems with Yast2, but nevertheless, I see that Yast2 addresses some matters better than Yast1 did. Having to work on many machines at various levels, I even missed Yast2 in some circumstances. Yast2 has shortcomings indeed, some are already corrected through patches, the others will probably disappear as things evolve. For some machines, installing 8.0 was boringly easy. :-). For others, I have to work a bit more. In one case, much more. When difficulties pop up, I quite understand how frustrating it might be for those, myself included, who feel overwhelmed by all this. We have to be honest here: deep down, this is complex.
SuSE doesn't say support is for the installation. They say that support is for the installation of a basic operating system. To me that means at least the printer and modem should work. Otherwise what use is it?
I was surprised to hear that SuSE was offering such support. This is something quite difficult for a company to afford. Give SuSE a few releases to iron out the main problems and find an equilibrium with their new support strategy. I would guess, without knowing, that they got overwhelmed by it. On this list, many months ago, I've read the anger of someone having found a bug in some random package. "I paid for the distro, it should have no bugs." For one, I would never, never ever expect SuSE to feel fully responsible for each and every of the thousands of packages they distribute. On the average, I feel that they are serious in testing everything a bit, and am glad that trend towards stability more than towards highest possible version numbers. Of course, they bear a special responsibility for the overall organisation of the distribution and its installer. I've confidence they do well in the long run, and feel forgiving for the few bumps that might be met on the road. Even if sometimes, those bumps hurt myself.
Now, tell me there isn't something wrong when a piece of hardware that worked previously on two of their older OS's, and will not now work on a later version, and they cannot be bothered to tell me why.
Hardware may fail, software as well. No software packager should be overly confident about software, and blindly blame hardware, this is rude. On the other hand (this happens to me for one machine with 8.0), hardware may fade out of fashion. It may not be supported forever, so when it stops being supported, I have to decide if I buy more recent hardware, or fight myself with obsolescent software versions, to recover that support. I'm not getting mad at anybody when this happens, however. All in all, good and bad, 8.0 is appealing. Retrofitting all recent software versions I want in 7.2 or 7.3 would probably require me a much greater effort. For me, 8.0 is still on the economical route, energy-wise.
I suppose now I will be "blacklisted" and receive no more help.
For one, and am not sure what others do, I do not blacklist people often. Surely not for having opinions: otherwise I would soon blacklist myself :-). Besides spammers, of course, I see that I only blacklist people who used abusive language, or showed continuing bad attitudes (like repeating their stanza like a parrot -- unable to listen to others; or purposedly writing unacceptably spelled English -- unable to sort out IRC from email). Happily enough, most people are reasonable and speakable. This mailing list is meant so we can all help each other. So, despite with might have our problems, we are in the same boat after all, let's try to stay friends. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard
The problems with Yast2 are : - it doesn't cover all the areas that Yast did, or sometimes not as well - it's much less reliable than it's predecessor, as I and many others have already reported. So maybe good ol' Yast went away one or two releases too soon. I'm sure YAST2 will be a great installation/maintenance interface...sometimes. I simply hope I don't have to switch to some other distro meanwhile (I've been stuck for more than a month with a 8.0 distro that can't be installed on my machine because of a Yast2 bug. Hope I'll work it out with the help of feedback people). Don't misunderstand me : I very much like SuSE distro, I'd just like to be able to install the last version.. Hope you don't mind my 2 c. -- ~adj~ Ces mystères nous dépassent Feignons d'en être l'organisateur...
participants (6)
-
Alain DIDIERJEAN -
Ben Rosenberg -
Matthew Johnson -
pinard＠iro.umontreal.ca -
R. Stia -
Timothy Mason