[opensuse] Back to 10.3

Joop Beris

21 Aug 2008 21 Aug '08

14:43

Hello listmates, My recent switch to openSUSE 11 has been met with several hurdles, but overall I have been relatively satisfied. However, after the updates of yesterday morning, my graphical login is completely gone. Kdm dies leaving the following in /var/log/messages: Received unknown or unexpected command -2 from greeter Abnormal termination of greeter for display :0, code 127, signal 0 In /var/log/kdm.log, I find the following line, which repeats over and over: (EE) I810(0): vm86() syscall generated signal 11. After this, I have decided to give up and go back to openSUSE 10.3, which has worked relatively flawlessly for me. It just seems to me that the openSUSE 11.0/KDE 4.1 combination is not mature enough yet to be unleashed on the general public. I am now back to running 10.3, and I am almost surprised to find how many things just work again. I can use kssh, roam networks with KNetworkmanager, I can use Kontact to open my Exchange mail, without getting all kinds of double email messages, connection time-outs, I can use my calendar functions with Exchange. Of course, I have to deal with slower package management, but I need my machine for work. As much as I like tinkering with my system, I found that with openSUSE 11, I was just losing too much time getting things working and not getting enough work done. I think I'll be back to try out openSUSE 11.1, but for now, I am sticking on 10.3. I feel a bit disappointed, because 11 worked great and felt very responsive in most areas, but especially desktopwise with KDE 4.1, too many things are rough around the edges. (Yes, I know I could have installed KDE 3.5 on openSUSE 11, but if I upgrade, I want to go all the way). Oh well, better luck next time. Regards, Joop ------------------------------------------------------------ Dit bericht is gescand op virussen en andere gevaarlijke inhoud door MailScanner en lijkt schoon te zijn. Mailscanner door http://www.prosolit.nl Professional Solutions fot IT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Hans de Faber

21 Aug 21 Aug

15:05

Joop Beris schreef:

...

Hello listmates,

My recent switch to openSUSE 11 has been met with several hurdles, but overall I have been relatively satisfied. However, after the updates of yesterday morning, my graphical login is completely gone.

Kdm dies leaving the following in /var/log/messages: Received unknown or unexpected command -2 from greeter Abnormal termination of greeter for display :0, code 127, signal 0

In /var/log/kdm.log, I find the following line, which repeats over and over: (EE) I810(0): vm86() syscall generated signal 11.

After this, I have decided to give up and go back to openSUSE 10.3, which has worked relatively flawlessly for me. It just seems to me that the openSUSE 11.0/KDE 4.1 combination is not mature enough yet to be unleashed on the general public.

I am now back to running 10.3, and I am almost surprised to find how many things just work again. I can use kssh, roam networks with KNetworkmanager, I can use Kontact to open my Exchange mail, without getting all kinds of double email messages, connection time-outs, I can use my calendar functions with Exchange. Of course, I have to deal with slower package management, but I need my machine for work. As much as I like tinkering with my system, I found that with openSUSE 11, I was just losing too much time getting things working and not getting enough work done. I think I'll be back to try out openSUSE 11.1, but for now, I am sticking on 10.3.

I feel a bit disappointed, because 11 worked great and felt very responsive in most areas, but especially desktopwise with KDE 4.1, too many things are rough around the edges. (Yes, I know I could have installed KDE 3.5 on openSUSE 11, but if I upgrade, I want to go all the way).

Oh well, better luck next time.

Regards,

Joop

I agree with you,You are right. The right choice for professional solutions is (and was) 11.0/KDE3.5 Maybe you have in your login screen the choice to switch between kde3 and 4, I have. So it was very easy to switch back. Hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

15:50

...

I feel a bit disappointed, because 11 worked great and felt very responsive in most areas, but especially desktopwise with KDE 4.1, too many things are rough around the edges. (Yes, I know I could have installed KDE 3.5 on openSUSE 11, but if I upgrade, I want to go all the way).

KDE4, while it works for most things is still lacking in many areas. I use KDE4 everyday, but I am willing to work with it and work around the issues as it evolves - the improvements since the 4.0.4 release are huge, and it is getting much much better.... as much as I think KDE4 is nice and all... I would not suggest people use it for production or critical environments. There are simply too many little niggly issues. Going "all the way" with 11.0 does not necessarily include KDE4. You can just as easily install and run KDE4.1 on 10.3... the "all the way" in 11.0 is the massively improved package management, better install, a Beagle that actually works (although I don't use it) and so on. Those are the major benefits of 11.0 That said... 10.3 was, for most people, a very nice release if you can work with the wonky package management. :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

23:21

On Thursday 21 August 2008 10:50:21 am Clayton wrote: ...

...

Going "all the way" with 11.0 does not necessarily include KDE4. You can just as easily install and run KDE4.1 on 10.3... the "all the way" in 11.0 is the massively improved package management, better install, a Beagle that actually works (although I don't use it) and so on. Those are the major benefits of 11.0 ...

Main reason for Joop to go back to 10.3 is Network Manager in 11.0 that doesn't work as it worked in 10.3, and he is not alone with a problem. I don't use laptop that much, and even when is used it is right here on home network, so no problems with roaming. Besides it is still on 10.3. I guess that Network manager is one thing to think about for 11.1. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Eddie

22 Aug 22 Aug

08:21

On Friday 22 August 2008 00:21:13 Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Thursday 21 August 2008 10:50:21 am Clayton wrote: ...

...
Going "all the way" with 11.0 does not necessarily include KDE4. You can just as easily install and run KDE4.1 on 10.3... the "all the way" in 11.0 is the massively improved package management, better install, a Beagle that actually works (although I don't use it) and so on. Those are the major benefits of 11.0

...

Main reason for Joop to go back to 10.3 is Network Manager in 11.0 that doesn't work as it worked in 10.3, and he is not alone with a problem. I don't use laptop that much, and even when is used it is right here on home network, so no problems with roaming. Besides it is still on 10.3.

I guess that Network manager is one thing to think about for 11.1.

That's interesting because I was going to give up on 11.0 because time I started or restarted my laptop I had to restart networking in order to get a connection going (this was using traditional setup). As a last resort I tried using the Network manager (which is not my first choice) and the networking works fine especially between different venues like home, work, relatives and friends. On the other hand there were several little things that bugged me about 11.0 and so I've gone back to 10.3 on my machine at work. While the laptop and home machines which are not that critical I've kept to 11.0 Eddie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joop Beris

25 Aug 25 Aug

10:31

On Thursday 21 August 2008 05:50:21 pm Clayton wrote:

...

That said... 10.3 was, for most people, a very nice release if you can work with the wonky package management. :-)

Hi Clayton, I know 10.3 has a bad reputation where package manglement is concerned, but in all fairness, if you stick to the default repositories, and a few big ones, like Packman, I don't think the package management is that bad. I've only had very few issues with it since it's release, much much better than earlier 10.x releases! However, my experience with package management on 11 has been a little piece of heaven so far. It's fast, it doesn't churn my CPU for minutes before it decides it can't install something due to conflicting dependencies...I love it! :-) Joop ------------------------------------------------------------ Dit bericht is gescand op virussen en andere gevaarlijke inhoud door MailScanner en lijkt schoon te zijn. Mailscanner door http://www.prosolit.nl Professional Solutions fot IT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

27 Aug 27 Aug

09:37

...

I know 10.3 has a bad reputation where package manglement is concerned, but in all fairness, if you stick to the default repositories, and a few big ones, like Packman, I don't think the package management is that bad. I've only had very few issues with it since it's release, much much better than earlier 10.x releases!

However, my experience with package management on 11 has been a little piece of heaven so far. It's fast, it doesn't churn my CPU for minutes before it decides it can't install something due to conflicting dependencies...I love it! :-)

The entire 10.x series had package management issues - primarily with speed. Now with 11.0, it works, and it works VERY well. As soon as i saw how good it was, i moved all my computers to 11.0, and encourage others to do the same. I've worked with and ran various other Linux distros including Ubuntu and its variations, and compared to the 10.x releases, Ubuntu won in package management. OpenSuse 11.0 thouhg... has got it right (for how I think/work anyway).. at least the KDE version of the package manager. The Gnome version of the package manager in 11.0 is a royal pain to use - oddly no one has commented on it on the mailing list.. that I've noticed (a topic for another discussion). (I run both KDE4 and Gnome and use both the QT and GTK versions of YAST). C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Amedee Van Gasse

12:03

On Wed, August 27, 2008 11:37, Clayton wrote:

...

...
I know 10.3 has a bad reputation where package manglement is concerned, but in all fairness, if you stick to the default repositories, and a few big ones, like Packman, I don't think the package management is that bad. I've only had very few issues with it since it's release, much much better than earlier 10.x releases!

However, my experience with package management on 11 has been a little piece of heaven so far. It's fast, it doesn't churn my CPU for minutes before it decides it can't install something due to conflicting dependencies...I love it! :-)

The entire 10.x series had package management issues - primarily with speed. Now with 11.0, it works, and it works VERY well. As soon as i saw how good it was, i moved all my computers to 11.0, and encourage others to do the same.

I've worked with and ran various other Linux distros including Ubuntu and its variations, and compared to the 10.x releases, Ubuntu won in package management. OpenSuse 11.0 thouhg... has got it right (for how I think/work anyway)..

Coming from Debian&Ubuntu, and before that, Gentoo, I agree. Speed is comparable. Perhaps synaptic/aptitude are just a tiny bit faster, but not much. It has the same speed issues when you add lots of repo's. The OpenSuse 11.0 interface doesn't feel alien[*] to me: I can do most things with it that I could also do with synaptic. What I think is a big plus, is that it splits up the download count for each repo. Also a big win for OpenSuse is the different kind of repo's it can manage. What is it, more than 10 types? ftp, http, cd/dvd,... Eat that, Ubuntu! ;-) I cannot comment on 10.x because I never used those, except for a livecd that came with a magazine. [*] alien is a program that converts .rpm to .deb -- Amedee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

21 Aug 21 Aug

20:03

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Joop Beris wrote:

...

Hello listmates,

...

After this, I have decided to give up and go back to openSUSE 10.3, which has worked relatively flawlessly for me. It just seems to me that the openSUSE 11.0/KDE 4.1 combination is not mature enough yet to be unleashed on the general public.

Ah, but the root of your problem was not opensuse 11.0, but rather the unfinished kde 4.1 Its too late now, but you could have just backed up to 3.5.9 and been in fat city. Its sad, really, that Opensuse has given themselves another black eye with KDE4 so close to the scabbing over of the self inflicted wounds they got when they revised the package management in 10.1. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

20:27

* John Andersen [08-21-08 16:06]:

...

Its sad, really, that Opensuse has given themselves another black eye with KDE4 so close to the scabbing over of the self inflicted wounds they got when they revised the package management in 10.1.

What is really sad is your spreading of f.u.d. due to your misconception of the basis KDE4 was provided, as a work in progress, not a nuts-and-bolts replacement of KDE3. Please stop with the fud! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

21:04

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* John Andersen [08-21-08 16:06]:

...
Its sad, really, that Opensuse has given themselves another black eye with KDE4 so close to the scabbing over of the self inflicted wounds they got when they revised the package management in 10.1.

What is really sad is your spreading of f.u.d. due to your misconception of the basis KDE4 was provided, as a work in progress, not a nuts-and-bolts replacement of KDE3.

Please stop with the fud!

It was never provided as a work in progress. Go read the announcement. Go look what it actually says at install time. We've been over this a hundred times on this list. Here you have a user abandoning 11 for 10.3 ONLY because Opensuse sold 4.0/4.1 as the next great thing rather than an experimental release that it clearly is. How does users dumping the entire product constitute FUD? Yet you still hang around here jumping on ME every time I reply to one of these threads. Its way past time for you to just back off Patrick! Everybody hear knows you are an ardent apologist for KDE 4 and that you refuse to see its limitation. The evidence is at the top of this thread. Go back and read it. In the meantime, get off my case. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

22:54

* John Andersen [08-21-08 17:06]:

...

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
What is really sad is your spreading of f.u.d. due to your misconception of the basis KDE4 was provided, as a work in progress, not a nuts-and-bolts replacement of KDE3.

Please stop with the fud!

It was never provided as a work in progress. Go read the announcement. Go look what it actually says at install time. We've been over this a hundred times on this list.

You apparently have a reading disorder.

...

Its way past time for you to just back off Patrick! Everybody hear knows you are an ardent apologist for KDE 4 and that you refuse to see its limitation. The evidence is at the top of this thread. Go back and read it. In the meantime, get off my case.

Stop the fud. Nuf sed! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

23:12

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

Stop the fud. Nuf sed!

KDE4 has many issues and that has been discussed and ranted on repeatedly. I have used it very little. When I just tried to load it into a seperate session, it failed saying: Could not start kedinit4. Check your installation. So, there's definately something broken IF you are only using the stock 4.04 install. I haven't tried the new KDE 4.1 yet, but if I was a new user running openSUSE and KDE4 and that happened, I'd probably run back to WinDoZe. I fully disagreed with the decision to give KDE4 "preference" over KDE3 in regards to the lack of a KDE3 liveCD(I TRIED to remove KDE4 after installing from the liveCD and gave up and installed from the DVD to get KDE3). They are way too many KDE4 components in the KDE3 version as well. The KDE4 versions of a lot of programs suck visually IMO. Granted, I've used KDE since v2. There wasn't much visually different between v2 and v3. v4 is a HUGE shift and a lot of long time users who could care less about eye candy have been very dissappointed. Sure, I can make it look like KDE3, but I can't make it fully act like KDE3. That would be like running Vista and make it look like XP. What's the point? XP uses less resources and has been proven faster on identical hardware. I hate to say it, but I feel the same about KDE4 vs. KDE3. Again, this is my opinion. Feel free to disagree. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

22 Aug 22 Aug

00:08

On Thursday 21 August 2008 06:12:05 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

...

KDE4 has many issues and that has been discussed and ranted on repeatedly. I have used it very little. When I just tried to load it into a seperate session, it failed saying:

Could not start kedinit4. Check your installation.

So, there's definately something broken IF you are only using the stock 4.04 install. I haven't tried the new KDE 4.1 yet, but if I was a new user running openSUSE and KDE4 and that happened, I'd probably run back to WinDoZe.

I fully disagreed with the decision to give KDE4 "preference" over KDE3 in regards to the lack of a KDE3 liveCD(I TRIED to remove KDE4 after installing from the liveCD and gave up and installed from the DVD to get KDE3). They are way too many KDE4 components in the KDE3 version as well. The KDE4 versions of a lot of programs suck visually IMO.

Granted, I've used KDE since v2. There wasn't much visually different between v2 and v3. v4 is a HUGE shift and a lot of long time users who could care less about eye candy have been very dissappointed. Sure, I can make it look like KDE3, but I can't make it fully act like KDE3. That would be like running Vista and make it look like XP. What's the point? XP uses less resources and has been proven faster on identical hardware. I hate to say it, but I feel the same about KDE4 vs. KDE3.

Again, this is my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Absolutely, in many points, but it would not change much your thoughts if you don't update to KDE Factory and try that. There is still a lot of bugs to chase, so you experience will be all but boredom. We need more adventurous people that will test new stuff. Updates are comming every week, and it is always something new. To cover many features and applications that are added since 4.0.4 every helpfull hand is welcome. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

00:17

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

...

Absolutely, in many points, but it would not change much your thoughts if you don't update to KDE Factory and try that. There is still a lot of bugs to chase, so you experience will be all but boredom.

And that's what I don't need when it comes to getting things done. I feel that less emphasis should have been given to KDE4 due to it's incomplete state. At least they didn't do like Fedora 9 and remove KDE3. I only recently migrated my Fedora 8 box, and it went to openSUSE 11.0.

...

We need more adventurous people that will test new stuff. Updates are comming every week, and it is always something new. To cover many features and applications that are added since 4.0.4 every helpfull hand is welcome.

I don't mind testing, but I don't test things I don't use like beagle, compiz, openoffice, etc. Since I don't rely on these programs(or really see the point in them), it makes little sense for me to test thing. I'd be coloring my testing with the fact that I don't use them. I rely on KOffice, and until they get a stable KDE4/KOffice4 setup, I won't be using it much. The thing I like about SuSE is that it has always pretty much worked. 10.1's huge problems with the package manager and lack of Old World Mac support was a really big blow. 10.2 was much better, but 10.3 was a step back. 11.0 has been rock solid for what I do. KNetwork Manager works fine on all my laptops. Kde3 works fine. Package management is really fast(not counting Comcast's slowness on DNS resolving here at the house). I see no incentive to go back to 10.3. I even have 8.1 installed on my old Thinkpad 380XD, so I know my SuSE versions. Been using it since 5.3 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

00:26

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

I even have 8.1 installed on my old Thinkpad 380XD, so I know my SuSE versions. Been using it since 5.3

Ah, you grey-beards... Make me feel like a whipper-snapper. I've only been on Suse since 7.1 (or was it 7.2). I still have machines in production running 9.2. (Fully firewalled). I wish i had more time to test 11. I can only fire it up in a VM occasionally because I am not at a point where I can risk a machine just yet. As soon as I get some more time, I am going to nuke it and start again, but 11.1 may be out by then, and this will all be "water under the bridge" by then. Actually, we will all have passed a lot of water by then. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

00:50

* Larry Stotler [08-21-08 20:19]:

...

Package management is really fast(not counting Comcast's slowness on DNS resolving here at the house).

set your dns (?router) to http://www.opendns.com/ 208.67.222.222 208.67.220.220 It is quicker for me than roadrunner. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

01:20

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 8:50 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

set your dns (?router) to http://www.opendns.com/ 208.67.222.222 208.67.220.220 It is quicker for me than roadrunner.

We have that at work. It blocks some sites tho. I might give it a shot. It's a good, fast connection, but it lags a lot. Oh well. Thanx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

01:42

On Thursday 21 August 2008 07:17:38 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

...

I don't mind testing, but I don't test things I don't use like beagle, compiz, openoffice, etc. Since I don't rely on these programs(or really see the point in them), it makes little sense for me to test thing. I'd be coloring my testing with the fact that I don't use them. I rely on KOffice, and until they get a stable KDE4/KOffice4 setup, I won't be using it much.

Test things that one doesn't use isn't really efficient, so test what you know the best. When you have some time during the day, give a try to KDE4, in another session, as another user, so it doesn't affect your work environment. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John E. Perry

04:39

Rajko M. wrote:

...

...When you have some time during the day, give a try to KDE4, in another session, as another user, so it doesn't affect your work environment.

Is it really needed to set up a different user? I haven't seen any ill effects on my account, but then I haven't really exercised kde4 much. Are you saying this because it's important, or because it's a good thing to do? John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

05:33

On Thursday 21 August 2008 11:39:28 pm John E. Perry wrote:

...

Rajko M. wrote:

...
...When you have some time during the day, give a try to KDE4, in another session, as another user, so it doesn't affect your work environment.

Is it really needed to set up a different user? I haven't seen any ill effects on my account, but then I haven't really exercised kde4 much. Are you saying this because it's important, or because it's a good thing to do?

John Perry

It is just useful, mostly because it Works for me :-) Having all settings separated just makes clear when something doesn't work, it is not unwanted interaction, it is a bug. Both KDE3 and KDE4 use the same Desktop directory. To avoid interaction, the easiest way is to create another user, and then Desktop directories are separated, just as the rest of settings. Also, on occasions I want to see default KDE4 settings and move ~/.kde4 away forcing creation of default one, but if there is already populated ~/.kde than it will attempt to import user settings in ~/.kde4. That might be the reason that some people have problems that I can't reproduce. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John E. Perry

04:30

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

The thing I like about SuSE is that it has always pretty much worked. ... 11.0 has been rock solid for what I do.

Same here... KNetwork

...

Manager works fine on all my laptops.

I'm having the same problem others have reported regarding the ultra-selective display of wifi access points. When I upgraded I had to use ethernet for a couple of weeks until someone put a workaround on the list that finally let me get my home wifi network displayed again. It still doesn't display any other AP, even though it showed half a dozen, some quite strong, before 11.0. When I have to travel again, I'll probably have to go back to 10.3 or (ugh) xp. _Please_, suse, give us back a full access display! Or at least a reasonable one. Kde3 works fine. Yes, I have to drop back to kde3, too. Actually, it's been a couple of weeks since I tried kde4. I guess it's time to give it another try. Last time I gave up because it was just too slow to put up with. I didn't even get as far as trying seriously OOo or firefox. Package

...

management is really fast

Yes! a HUGE improvement. Thank you, suse! I see no incentive to go back to 10.3. Nor I.

...

I even have 8.1 installed on my old Thinkpad 380XD, so I know my SuSE versions. Been using it since 5.3

So, do you still have the old pink 5.0 manuals? I've lost track of mine, and the (what color were they?) 7.0 manuals. I do still have the green ones from 9.0. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Amedee Van Gasse

24 Aug 24 Aug

11:55

New subject: OT: OpenDNS (Was: [opensuse] Back to 10.3)

Larry Stotler schreef:

...

(not counting Comcast's slowness on DNS resolving here at the house).

Have you tried OpenDNS? I'm using it since the big DNS security problem. -- Amedee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Scarlett Clark

22 Aug 22 Aug

01:38

On Thursday 21 August 2008 20:08:01 Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Thursday 21 August 2008 06:12:05 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

...
KDE4 has many issues and that has been discussed and ranted on repeatedly. I have used it very little. When I just tried to load it into a seperate session, it failed saying:

Could not start kedinit4. Check your installation.

So, there's definately something broken IF you are only using the stock 4.04 install. I haven't tried the new KDE 4.1 yet, but if I was a new user running openSUSE and KDE4 and that happened, I'd probably run back to WinDoZe.

I fully disagreed with the decision to give KDE4 "preference" over KDE3 in regards to the lack of a KDE3 liveCD(I TRIED to remove KDE4 after installing from the liveCD and gave up and installed from the DVD to get KDE3). They are way too many KDE4 components in the KDE3 version as well. The KDE4 versions of a lot of programs suck visually IMO.

Granted, I've used KDE since v2. There wasn't much visually different between v2 and v3. v4 is a HUGE shift and a lot of long time users who could care less about eye candy have been very dissappointed. Sure, I can make it look like KDE3, but I can't make it fully act like KDE3. That would be like running Vista and make it look like XP. What's the point? XP uses less resources and has been proven faster on identical hardware. I hate to say it, but I feel the same about KDE4 vs. KDE3.

Again, this is my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Absolutely, in many points, but it would not change much your thoughts if you don't update to KDE Factory and try that. There is still a lot of bugs to chase, so you experience will be all but boredom.

We need more adventurous people that will test new stuff. Updates are comming every week, and it is always something new. To cover many features and applications that are added since 4.0.4 every helpfull hand is welcome.

-- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. I am adventurous! I am still trying to figure out the best way to "get involved" I signed up for the KDE list, is there other things I should do? Sorry I am rather new. Scarlett

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

02:54

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Scarlett Clark wrote:

...

I am adventurous! I am still trying to figure out the best way to "get involved" I signed up for the KDE list, is there other things I should do? Sorry I am rather new.

Everyone starts somewhere. A good place for testing is the opensuse-factory list. Download and install the testing versions(just remember that they aren't production ready). They usually add delta isos so you don't have to download the whole thing each time as the testing goes on. Welcome aboard. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

04:49

On Thursday 21 August 2008 09:54:44 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Scarlett Clark

wrote:

...

...
I am adventurous! I am still trying to figure out the best way to "get involved" I signed up for the KDE list, is there other things I should do? Sorry I am rather new.

Everyone starts somewhere. A good place for testing is the opensuse-factory list. Download and install the testing versions(just remember that they aren't production ready). They usually add delta isos so you don't have to download the whole thing each time as the testing goes on.

Welcome aboard.

That's straight in the fire :-D Clark, don't forget asbestos suit when you install Factory. Right now it is in pretty volatile state. You should use spare machine, not the main one. If you are not that adventurous KDE4 is better place, but as mentioned in another post, to keep problems from you main desktop, create new user and use that one for KDE4 only, and start with applications that you know the best. That means you need main desktop to communicate. I still use KDE3, most of the time. Seriously, what you can do depends on your experience. "Rather new" is open to interpretations: new to computers, Linux, openSUSE, KDE4, or software testing. -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Scarlett Clark

09:56

On Friday 22 August 2008 00:49:06 Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Thursday 21 August 2008 09:54:44 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

...
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Scarlett Clark

wrote:

...
I am adventurous! I am still trying to figure out the best way to "get involved" I signed up for the KDE list, is there other things I should do? Sorry I am rather new.

Everyone starts somewhere. A good place for testing is the opensuse-factory list. Download and install the testing versions(just remember that they aren't production ready). They usually add delta isos so you don't have to download the whole thing each time as the testing goes on.

Welcome aboard.

That's straight in the fire :-D

Clark, don't forget asbestos suit when you install Factory. Right now it is in pretty volatile state. You should use spare machine, not the main one.

If you are not that adventurous KDE4 is better place, but as mentioned in another post, to keep problems from you main desktop, create new user and use that one for KDE4 only, and start with applications that you know the best. That means you need main desktop to communicate. I still use KDE3, most of the time.

Seriously, what you can do depends on your experience. "Rather new" is open to interpretations: new to computers, Linux, openSUSE, KDE4, or software testing.

-- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. Software testing :) I am pretty good at disaster recovery! I am returning to Linux after losing a few years in gaming which all run in windows. I used KDE and SuSe years ago but alot has changed! I have 3 computers I can work with. I will make sure to do backups. I am learning Java right now, any suggestions for another language? I am an extremely fast learner so I don't mind being thrown into fires :) Thanks, Scarlett

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte

22:46

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Friday 22 August 2008 02:56:03 am Scarlett Clark wrote:

...

I am learning Java right now, any suggestions for another language? I am an extremely fast learner so I don't mind being thrown into fires :)

Scarlett: To answer your question on languages, that depends on what you want. The "hot" languages nowdays are either Java or .NET in the business world. If you want to be more classic, there's still a need for traditional COBOL and C/C++ in the business area. I manage a team of 11 programmers, and we use C#, Java, C++ and COBOL. Of course, there's a little Cold Fusion, PHP and ASP thrown in for good measure. Pick one you like and stick with it. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Scarlett Clark

23:40

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Friday 22 August 2008 18:46:11 Kai Ponte wrote:

...

On Friday 22 August 2008 02:56:03 am Scarlett Clark wrote:

...
I am learning Java right now, any suggestions for another language? I am an extremely fast learner so I don't mind being thrown into fires :)

Scarlett:

To answer your question on languages, that depends on what you want.

The "hot" languages nowdays are either Java or .NET in the business world. If you want to be more classic, there's still a need for traditional COBOL and C/C++ in the business area.

I manage a team of 11 programmers, and we use C#, Java, C++ and COBOL. Of course, there's a little Cold Fusion, PHP and ASP thrown in for good measure.

Pick one you like and stick with it.

-- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request

I am having a blast with Java and it is on your list so I will stick with that :) I will probably also delve into some more of the web oriented languages once I perfect Java. Thanks! Scarlett -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte

23 Aug 23 Aug

14:52

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Friday 22 August 2008 04:40:04 pm Scarlett Clark wrote:

...

I am having a blast with Java and it is on your list so I will stick with that

:)

Though Java has a few idiosyncricies, I agree. It is a powerful language. I have been using NetBeans to design GUI apps in Java for a few years now. It is free, open source, and works great on *nix, wintendo and TheCultOfMac. http://www.donutmonster.com/stuff/dm_screen051024_linux.jpg http://www.donutmonster.com/stuff/dm_screen051024.jpg http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080317_netbeans_ide.png http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080128_GERRY_Mac1.png http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080525_gerry_add_contact.jpg

...

I will probably also delve into some more of the web oriented languages once I perfect Java.

Keep in mind that Java/C# can also get you "web" programming done. Though the classic scripting languages such as ASP, CGI, PHP are more "web oriented", there's no reason you can't use a 3GL like Java or C#/Mono to do your web programming. We've done that at my work, where we used exclusively C# to do web applications. http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080823_yoda_search.png http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080823_yoda_search_results.png http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080823_yoda_document.png Unfortunately, this one also relies on an ActiveX viewer object, so we couldn't make it cross-browser/cross-platform yet. I plan to move to another image control in the next year which is cross-platform, so I don't have to run the bloody thing in IE. (I use Crossover Office or IES4Linux to run IE web apps.) -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request

Scarlett Clark

15:03

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Saturday 23 August 2008 10:52:16 Kai Ponte wrote:

...

On Friday 22 August 2008 04:40:04 pm Scarlett Clark wrote:

...
I am having a blast with Java and it is on your list so I will stick with that

:)

Though Java has a few idiosyncricies, I agree. It is a powerful language. I have been using NetBeans to design GUI apps in Java for a few years now. It is free, open source, and works great on *nix, wintendo and TheCultOfMac.

http://www.donutmonster.com/stuff/dm_screen051024_linux.jpg

http://www.donutmonster.com/stuff/dm_screen051024.jpg

http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080317_netbeans_ide.png

http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080128_GERRY_Mac1.png

http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080525_gerry_add_contact.jpg

...
I will probably also delve into some more of the web oriented languages once I perfect Java.

Keep in mind that Java/C# can also get you "web" programming done. Though the classic scripting languages such as ASP, CGI, PHP are more "web oriented", there's no reason you can't use a 3GL like Java or C#/Mono to do your web programming.

We've done that at my work, where we used exclusively C# to do web applications.

http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080823_yoda_search.png

http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080823_yoda_search_results.png

http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20080823_yoda_document.png

Unfortunately, this one also relies on an ActiveX viewer object, so we couldn't make it cross-browser/cross-platform yet. I plan to move to another image control in the next year which is cross-platform, so I don't have to run the bloody thing in IE. (I use Crossover Office or IES4Linux to run IE web apps.)

I am using Netbeans as we speak on opensuse (still stuck on SuSe lol) I absolutely love it. I did not fair so well with eclipse. Forgive my newbness but what is the difference between Java and JavaScript? Yeah I have been using Wine to run my windows apps. My Vista box is cowering in the corner because it knows its days are numbered. I am thinking that is the machine I will use for testing as it is a really nice box (Dell XPS system) Unfortunately, school requires me to have a windows box so I guess I will throw in on one of my older machines. Though Vista is very system resource heavy..... Dual boot a testing box ... I am guessing that is asking for trouble. Thanks! Scarlett -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte

15:26

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Saturday 23 August 2008 08:03:09 am Scarlett Clark wrote:

...

I am using Netbeans as we speak on opensuse (still stuck on SuSe lol) I absolutely love it. I did not fair so well with eclipse.

I tried to like Eclipse, but found it lacking in the GUI design area. I've heard good things about SWT, but find that SWING works just as well these days.

...

Forgive my newbness but what is the difference between Java and JavaScript?

Java is a compiled C-like language that is run in bytecode on any machine which has an interpreter. Javascript is a scripted C-like language that can be run in an interpreter (such as a browser) and is used for mostly client-side scripting, such as validating when a form is filled-in or when a button is clicked.

...

Yeah I have been using Wine to run my windows apps.

Wine works good for many things, but not for some items, such as Office 2003 or other interfacce-intensive apps like USB support.

...

My Vista box is cowering in the corner because it knows its days are numbered. I am thinking that is the machine I will use for testing as it is a really nice box (Dell XPS system) Unfortunately, school requires me to have a windows box

What?? Tell that school of yours to take a hike!

...

so I guess I will throw in on one of my older machines. Though Vista is very system resource heavy..... Dual boot a testing box ... I am guessing that is asking for trouble.

Not at all... -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

19:26

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Saturday 23 August 2008 08:26, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

On Saturday 23 August 2008 08:03:09 am Scarlett Clark wrote:

...
I am using Netbeans as we speak on opensuse (still stuck on SuSe lol) I absolutely love it. I did not fair so well with eclipse.

I tried to like Eclipse, but found it lacking in the GUI design area. I've heard good things about SWT, but find that SWING works just as well these days.

Eclipse was bad when it was Visual Age for Java and it has never recovered. I cannot work with it, and I, too, have tried. SWT introduces problematic native code. The incredible improvements in JVM technology along with the general march of hardware speed has made Swing applications as responsive as any.

...

...
Forgive my newbness but what is the difference between Java and JavaScript?

Their similarities end at the four letters "Java" and an entirely superficial lexical and syntactic similarity.

...

Java is a compiled C-like language that is run in bytecode on any machine which has an interpreter.

It would make more sense to compare Java with C++. Furthermore, gcj aside, the use of a virtual machine is a cornerstone of Java. In fact, what you get from the JVM is so valuable that people have invented literally dozens of languages (or compilers for existing languages) that generate JVM bytecodes and, with varying degrees of "seamlessness," allow the use of the tremendous selection of libraries available in the Java realm.

...

Javascript is a scripted C-like language

JavaScript is anything but C-like. It's more like a very poorly executed version of Scheme with a non-S-expression syntax (and no macros). JavaScript has its proponents (well, one anyway: Douglass Crockford), but they are few and far between. It's really an abomination of a language.

...

that can be run in an interpreter (such as a browser) and is used for mostly client-side scripting, such as validating when a form is filled-in or when a button is clicked.

In fact, all the fancy browser-hosted interactivity (the technology side of Web 2.0, as opposed to the community content aspect of Web 2.0) come from extensive use of client-side (browser) JavaScript.

...

...

-- kai

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Amedee Van Gasse

24 Aug 24 Aug

12:01

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

Kai Ponte schreef:

...

On Friday 22 August 2008 02:56:03 am Scarlett Clark wrote:

...
I am learning Java right now, any suggestions for another language? I am an extremely fast learner so I don't mind being thrown into fires :)

Scarlett:

To answer your question on languages, that depends on what you want.

The "hot" languages nowdays are either Java or .NET in the business world. If you want to be more classic, there's still a need for traditional COBOL and C/C++ in the business area.

I manage a team of 11 programmers, and we use C#, Java, C++ and COBOL. Of course, there's a little Cold Fusion, PHP and ASP thrown in for good measure.

Pick one you like and stick with it.

When Robert Cailliau, one of the two founding fathers of the World Wide Web, was recently asked this question, he said: "nothing with the letter C in the name". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte

20:44

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Sunday 24 August 2008 05:01:20 am Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...

...
I manage a team of 11 programmers, and we use C#, Java, C++ and COBOL. Of course, there's a little Cold Fusion, PHP and ASP thrown in for good measure.

Pick one you like and stick with it.

When Robert Cailliau, one of the two founding fathers of the World Wide Web, was recently asked this question, he said: "nothing with the letter C in the name".

Hmm, does that rule out Visual Basic? How about Whitespace? Okay, then Lisp? Fortran? -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

20:56

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Sunday 24 August 2008 13:44, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

On Sunday 24 August 2008 05:01:20 am Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...
...
...

Pick one you like and stick with it.

I don't think this is an ideal strategy. If you choose poorly, you'll be forever hampered by that bad choice. Even if you choose well, there are a lot of programming language concepts and no language incorporates them all (though Lisp _admits_ them all). Furthermore, programming language technology is still improving and, I dare say, there's a long way to go. Exploration of different and new languages is important if you want to be a competent programmer. And a language you like today may come to impede the realization of your ambitions over time.

...

...
When Robert Cailliau, one of the two founding fathers of the World Wide Web, was recently asked this question, he said: "nothing with the letter C in the name".

Hmm, does that rule out Visual Basic?

Whatual Whatic?

...

How about Whitespace?

Huh?

...

Okay, then Lisp? Fortran?

Lisp is all languages for all people and the only language we've ever needed. FORTRAN is for pipe-stress freaks and crystalography weenies.

...

-- kai

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Scarlett Clark

21:22

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Sunday 24 August 2008 16:56:50 Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Sunday 24 August 2008 13:44, Kai Ponte wrote:

...
On Sunday 24 August 2008 05:01:20 am Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...
...
...

Pick one you like and stick with it.

I don't think this is an ideal strategy. If you choose poorly, you'll be forever hampered by that bad choice. Even if you choose well, there are a lot of programming language concepts and no language incorporates them all (though Lisp _admits_ them all). Furthermore, programming language technology is still improving and, I dare say, there's a long way to go. Exploration of different and new languages is important if you want to be a competent programmer. And a language you like today may come to impede the realization of your ambitions over time.

...
...
When Robert Cailliau, one of the two founding fathers of the World Wide Web, was recently asked this question, he said: "nothing with the letter C in the name".

Hmm, does that rule out Visual Basic?

Whatual Whatic?

...
How about Whitespace?

Huh?

...
Okay, then Lisp? Fortran?

Lisp is all languages for all people and the only language we've ever needed.

FORTRAN is for pipe-stress freaks and crystalography weenies.

...
-- kai

Randall Schulz lol

Well I definately like Java hopefully that will not impede me :) I would like to learn some others too, I would really like to contribute to the Linux community so I imagine Java would not fit there. C++ and python keep coming up on searches for linux development. And of course the web development. Looks like I have alot of reading to do! Back to the books... Scarlett -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

21:47

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Sunday 24 August 2008 14:22, Scarlett Clark wrote:

...

...

lol

Well I definately like Java hopefully that will not impede me :) I would like to learn some others too, I would really like to contribute to the Linux community so I imagine Java would not fit there.

I don't know why you think that. I use several Java applications on Linux. True, one of them is a Java IDE (IDEA) and another is a Java profiler, but others include XML tools, image processing, a BitTorrent client, Semantic Web tools, a general-purpose (though programmer-oriented) editor and so on. After all, much of "The Web" today runs on Linux and uses Java applications.

...

C++ and python keep coming up on searches for linux development.

If you do this kind of "native" development, you'll either sacrifice portability to alternate operating systems or buy yourself a lot of extra portability issues that can seriously complicate a non-trivial application. Java side-steps almost all of those complications.

...

And of course the web development. Looks like I have alot of reading to do!

There are those who would disagree, but Java is an OK choice for lots of general-purpose programming tasks. Really, it all depends on your goals, as best you know them right now. If you just want to be able to cobble together some simple purpose-built tools for your day-to-day computing activities, Python or Ruby (even Perl) might be adequate. If you're looking to get into paid professional programming, then you need to be specific about what sorts of work you want to do. The reality today is that a significant majority of Web applications and Web services are done in Java. If you're going to do Windows applications, you'll probably want to know C++. For the Mac it would be Objective C. And as far as I know, scientific computing still heavily leans toward FORTRAN. And if you are on a professional track (or want to get on such a track), then computing theory is something you should know about and you should be looking at modern languages in the functional realm such as ML, Haskel and / or Scala. And seriously, Lisp is something every serious programmer should have some experience with. And make no mistake, there _are_ jobs for Lisp programmers, just not a whole lot of them. Lastly, there's more to computing than programming languages. There's algorithms, data structures, design patterns, problem-solving techniques, database systems, computational complexity etc. And so on. The computing landscape is large and varied. As a variation on the "pick one..." suggestion, you can't go very far wrong by simply digging in. The last bit of advice I'd give a beginner is never assume that something you're having trouble with is impossible. Likewise, always question the workability and suitability of solutions you devise.

...

Back to the books... Scarlett

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte

23:26

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Sunday 24 August 2008 02:22:22 pm Scarlett Clark wrote:

...

On Sunday 24 August 2008 16:56:50 Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
On Sunday 24 August 2008 13:44, Kai Ponte wrote:

...
On Sunday 24 August 2008 05:01:20 am Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...
...
...

Pick one you like and stick with it.

I don't think this is an ideal strategy. If you choose poorly, you'll be forever hampered by that bad choice. Even if you choose well, there are a lot of programming language concepts and no language incorporates them all (though Lisp _admits_ them all). Furthermore, programming language technology is still improving and, I dare say, there's a long way to go. Exploration of different and new languages is important if you want to be a competent programmer. And a language you like today may come to impede the realization of your ambitions over time.

...
...
When Robert Cailliau, one of the two founding fathers of the World Wide Web, was recently asked this question, he said: "nothing with the letter C in the name".

Hmm, does that rule out Visual Basic?

Whatual Whatic?

Heh - I'm still supporting VB apps. Believe it or not, we have some small-ish mission critical apps written in the late '90s in VB6, which are now maintained by a select few who still know the language.

...

...
...
How about Whitespace?

Huh?

Whitespace is a programming language developed with the intent that all code is written using non-printable characters, such as tab, space, carriage return... http://spacesharp.batard.info/

...

...
...
Okay, then Lisp? Fortran?

Lisp is all languages for all people and the only language we've ever needed.

LOL!!

...

...
FORTRAN is for pipe-stress freaks and crystalography weenies.

Heh - I know a few fortran old-folgies.

...

lol

Well I definately like Java hopefully that will not impede me :) I would like to learn some others too, I would really like to contribute to the Linux community so I imagine Java would not fit there. C++ and python keep coming up on searches for linux development. And of course the web development. Looks like I have alot of reading to do! Back to the books... Scarlett

When searching on "linux development", you find the hard-core weenies who write and think in C/C++ because they're kernel or interface developers. People who write business apps - whether in Linux or TheCultOfMac or Wintendo or UNIX/Mainframe - tend to write in 3GL or even 4GL variants. Java is a biggie in Linux because it is very well supported, cross platform and becoming an OSS language ever so slowly. You can also write cross-platform in C++ if you're a masochist. Trolltech - who brings you the glorious KDE - has a compiler that runs C++ apps in both *nix and Wintendo. Check out the Opera browser for an example. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Damon Register

25 Aug 25 Aug

15:24

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

...

...
...
FORTRAN is for pipe-stress freaks and crystalography weenies.

Heh - I know a few fortran old-folgies. That was my first real programming language, though I don't use it any more. One of my coworkers is still a big fan of it. You can call him what you want but his programming skills are amazing. About 2 years ago I was working with a few others trying to solve a problem with one of our programs. The programmer was trying to blame the user and didn't want to mess with it because it was written years ago by someone else. This Fortran guy was one of

...

When searching on "linux development", you find the hard-core weenies who write and think in C/C++ because they're kernel or interface developers. I have used C/C++ for 12 years but still don't feel like I am an expert. I have made several attempts to learn GTK and Qt in the

Kai Ponte wrote: the users. He asked me if I could get him the Ada source so he could investigate himself. In one evening he figured out the problem and told the Ada programmer how to fix it. The Fortran user wasn't even an Ada programmer. past but only recently I have finally learned GTK well enough to actually produce a program that works. I am very happy with it. If I can do it, then I would have to say that GTK is a good option to consider. Damon Register -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Amedee Van Gasse

11:51

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

On Sun, August 24, 2008 22:56, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Sunday 24 August 2008 13:44, Kai Ponte wrote:

...
On Sunday 24 August 2008 05:01:20 am Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...
...
...

Pick one you like and stick with it.

I don't think this is an ideal strategy. If you choose poorly, you'll be forever hampered by that bad choice. Even if you choose well, there are a lot of programming language concepts and no language incorporates them all (though Lisp _admits_ them all). Furthermore, programming language technology is still improving and, I dare say, there's a long way to go. Exploration of different and new languages is important if you want to be a competent programmer. And a language you like today may come to impede the realization of your ambitions over time.

...
...
When Robert Cailliau, one of the two founding fathers of the World Wide Web, was recently asked this question, he said: "nothing with the letter C in the name".

Hmm, does that rule out Visual Basic?

Whatual Whatic?

...
How about Whitespace?

Huh?

...
Okay, then Lisp? Fortran?

Lisp is all languages for all people and the only language we've ever needed.

FORTRAN is for pipe-stress freaks and crystalography weenies.

How about P? Or how about http://www.fullduplex.org/humor/2006/10/how-to-shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-in... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Duaine & Laura Hechler

14:37

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

You forgot about REXX and it's siblings: I used it for 19 years - in a professional capacity on the mainframe and midrange. And still using it on Linux (and - was - on windows) Two of the most complicated programs I wrote were: - At a direct marketing mail job, the program was written to query - all - of the necessary parms to build flyers, newsletters, etc and create - all - of the parm cards for the JCL to run the job for printing (margins, filler text, headers, footers, etc) - With about 90% accuracy, read in the 370 object code - and - recreate the 370 Assembler source. (We had a project to take an IBM supplied online CICS program and make it into a batch program that the programmers could run any time without CICS being up.) P.S. I have - everything - I wrote on a CD Duaine -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Brian K. White

17:23

New subject: Programming Languages (WAS: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3 )

...

How about P? Or how about http://www.fullduplex.org/humor/2006/10/how-to-shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-in...

How about my signature? If you happen to recognize the language, and wind up with a string "Linut~" then you got the right language, as that was my usual nick/sig back when I made that. -- Brian K. White brian@aljex.com http://www.myspace.com/KEYofR +++++[>+++[>+++++>+++++++<<-]<-]>>+.>.+++++.+++++++.-.[>+<---]>++. filePro BBx Linux SCO FreeBSD #callahans Satriani Filk! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

peter nikolic

21 Aug 21 Aug

23:13

On Thursday 21 August 2008, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* John Andersen [08-21-08 17:06]:

...
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
What is really sad is your spreading of f.u.d. due to your misconception of the basis KDE4 was provided, as a work in progress, not a nuts-and-bolts replacement of KDE3.

Please stop with the fud!

It was never provided as a work in progress. Go read the announcement. Go look what it actually says at install time. We've been over this a hundred times on this list.

You apparently have a reading disorder.

...
Its way past time for you to just back off Patrick! Everybody hear knows you are an ardent apologist for KDE 4 and that you refuse to see its limitation. The evidence is at the top of this thread. Go back and read it. In the meantime, get off my case.

Stop the fud. Nuf sed! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org

The BIG problem was your choice of menu layout and the fact that it was not made CLEAR that KDE 4 was ALPHA and use at your own risk you were told so many times but you chose to continue on the INSANE route and now when you are givrn justifiable grief you just get all objectionable and accuse the users of been the guilty party you chose NOT to listen you are now getting it in the neck right where it should be gotten . Pete . -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joop Beris

25 Aug 25 Aug

10:43

On Thursday 21 August 2008 11:04:13 pm John Andersen wrote:

...

Here you have a user abandoning 11 for 10.3 ONLY because Opensuse sold 4.0/4.1 as the next great thing rather than an experimental release that it clearly is.

Please don't interpret my post in that way, because it is not true. I knew before installing that I could expect issues with KDE 4.1 and I was prepared to deal with some issues. However, I found I had to deal with more issues that I was willing or prepared to handle, since I also want to get some work done on this machine, as much as I love to tinker with Linux. I was never mislead by the openSUSE team or anyone else. I just decided I wanted to take the plunge now that KDE 4.1 had been released. I agree that KDE 4.1 is not yet ready for the desktop, but I have no doubt that it will be in the near future. When it is, I'll be back and running KDE 4.x, because I really liked the look of things. However, looks are nothing to me if I can't get my work done, which is why I switched back. Just wanted to set the record straight that I was fooled by marketing-speak, because I was not. Regards, Joop ------------------------------------------------------------ Dit bericht is gescand op virussen en andere gevaarlijke inhoud door MailScanner en lijkt schoon te zijn. Mailscanner door http://www.prosolit.nl Professional Solutions fot IT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Brian K. White

21 Aug 21 Aug

21:15

----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Shanahan" To: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [opensuse] Back to 10.3

...

* John Andersen [08-21-08 16:06]:

...
Its sad, really, that Opensuse has given themselves another black eye with KDE4 so close to the scabbing over of the self inflicted wounds they got when they revised the package management in 10.1.

What is really sad is your spreading of f.u.d. due to your misconception of the basis KDE4 was provided, as a work in progress, not a nuts-and-bolts replacement of KDE3.

Please stop with the fud!

He makes perfect sense. During install you are presented with a very simple list with gnome at the top, then kde4 then kde3 then others. There is no indication that the normal user should by default avoid kde4 because it's a work in progress. If it was provided on that basis then it should not be plastered on that dialog at all let alon in a position superceding kde3. It should be tucked away in the other/advanced options dialog that requires another click to burrow in to even see it. -- Brian K. White brian@aljex.com http://www.myspace.com/KEYofR +++++[>+++[>+++++>+++++++<<-]<-]>>+.>.+++++.+++++++.-.[>+<---]>++. filePro BBx Linux SCO FreeBSD #callahans Satriani Filk! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jay Mistry

22 Aug 22 Aug

16:47

* John Andersen [08-21-08 16:06]: Its sad, really, that Opensuse has given themselves another black eye with KDE4 so close to the scabbing over of the self inflicted wounds they got when they revised the package management in 10.1. Having installed KDE4, is there a way to remove (uninstall) KDE4 & it's base libraries & associated programs? (as I am new to Linux, can work with only-gnome in openSUSE 11) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

16:53

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Jay Mistry wrote:

...

* John Andersen [08-21-08 16:06]:

Its sad, really, that Opensuse has given themselves another black eye with KDE4 so close to the scabbing over of the self inflicted wounds they got when they revised the package management in 10.1.

Having installed KDE4, is there a way to remove (uninstall) KDE4 & it's base libraries & associated programs? (as I am new to Linux, can work with only-gnome in openSUSE 11) --

Its been said that you can install 3.5.9 right along side KDE4, which would allow you to move back and forth. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jay Mistry

17:04

...

...
Its been said that you can install 3.5.9 right along side KDE4, which would allow you to move back and forth.

I would prefer to have only the stable KDE 3 (or is it KDE 3.x?, whichever). What happens is that in the gnome Application Menu (set up from the top Panel of the Desktop), there appear 2 moieties of each application (e.g. there are 2 kedit's, 2 kate's , etc.). So, I would like to remove the KDE4Desktop, KDE4 Base Files (& it's associated libraries & apps.) . Is this possible from YAST (or by any other way). If so, how can it be done? PS: Am new to Linux

...

...
Having installed KDE4, is there a way to remove (uninstall) KDE4 & it's base libraries & associated programs? (as I am new to Linux, can work with only-gnome in openSUSE 11) --

Its been said that you can install 3.5.9 right along side KDE4, which would allow you to move back and forth.

-- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

17:14

On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 10:04 AM, Jay Mistry wrote:

...

...
...
Its been said that you can install 3.5.9 right along side KDE4, which would allow you to move back and forth.

I would prefer to have only the stable KDE 3 (or is it KDE 3.x?, whichever). What happens is that in the gnome Application Menu (set up from the top Panel of the Desktop), there appear 2 moieties of each application (e.g. there are 2 kedit's, 2 kate's , etc.). So, I would like to remove the KDE4Desktop, KDE4 Base Files (& it's associated libraries & apps.) . Is this possible from YAST (or by any other way). If so, how can it be done? PS: Am new to Linux

If you are new to linux, I would recommend sticking to Either Gnome or KDE. Its your choice, you can run all three, but things are way less confusing if you pick one and stick with that. KDE 3 is so complete and feature rich that I find no use for Gnome, but that's just me. But yes, you can go into yast software management section and find KDE4 and ask that all of it be dis installed. You could then turn around and select all of kde3 for installation. You can even do those in the same pass if you want. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mark Misulich

17:33

...

...
I would prefer to have only the stable KDE 3 (or is it KDE 3.x?, whichever). What happens is that in the gnome Application Menu (set up from the top Panel of the Desktop), there appear 2 moieties of each application (e.g. there are 2 kedit's, 2 kate's , etc.). So, I would like to remove the KDE4Desktop, KDE4 Base Files (& it's associated libraries & apps.) . Is this possible from YAST (or by any other way). If so, how can it be done? PS: Am new to Lin Hi,

I just wanted to add a little to the replies that have gone on before. You can go into yast > software management > then select patterns. In patterns you may select or deselect the kde3, 4 or gnome systems that you wish to install or uninstall. that will make it easy for you to accomplish what you wish to do. Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mark A. Taff

23 Aug 23 Aug

09:06

On Friday 22 August 2008 10:14:55 John Andersen wrote:

...

If you are new to linux, I would recommend sticking to Either Gnome or KDE. Its your choice, you can run all three, but things are way less confusing if you pick one and stick with that. KDE 3 is so complete and feature rich that I find no use for Gnome, but that's just me.

Assuming you are indeed new to Linux, I just want to state what is obvious to those that have been around a spell: You do not have to run the Gnome desktop environment to run gtk apps like Gimp or evolution. They will run just fine inside of KDE (3.5.9, at least, 4.1 is still wonky, especially with nvidia graphics). The reverse is also true. --Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

lynn

12:17

You do not have to run the Gnome

...

desktop environment to run gtk apps like Gimp or evolution. They will run just fine inside of KDE (3.5.9, at least, 4.1 is still wonky, especially with nvidia graphics). The reverse is also true.

Kde3 y gnome are not viable on my lan much of which are PII 450 boxes where I've had to run xfce for many years. Kde 4.1 is the quickest I've had so far. So if you can stand the quirks I'd give that a go. L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

19:28

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 8:17 AM, lynn wrote:

...

Kde3 y gnome are not viable on my lan much of which are PII 450 boxes where I've had to run xfce for many years. Kde 4.1 is the quickest I've had so far. So if you can stand the quirks I'd give that a go.

Strange. KDE3 was faster than KDE4 on my Thinkpad with P3/450. At least with the stock settings. I didn't try to make KDE4 look like KDE3. It would be really nice if they would bring back the "eye-candy-meter" that was in 7.x and 8.x. That way those of us who don't care for it would have an easy way turn it off instead of hunting through the configs. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Amedee Van Gasse

24 Aug 24 Aug

11:51

John Andersen schreef:

...

On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:43 AM, Joop Beris wrote:

...
Hello listmates,

...
After this, I have decided to give up and go back to openSUSE 10.3, which has worked relatively flawlessly for me. It just seems to me that the openSUSE 11.0/KDE 4.1 combination is not mature enough yet to be unleashed on the general public.

Ah, but the root of your problem was not opensuse 11.0, but rather the unfinished kde 4.1

Its too late now, but you could have just backed up to 3.5.9 and been in fat city.

Its sad, really, that Opensuse has given themselves another black eye with KDE4 so close to the scabbing over of the self inflicted wounds they got when they revised the package management in 10.1.

I went from Ubuntu 8.04 (Gnome whatever) to OpenSUSE 11.0+KDE 4.1 and for me it felt like a real "upgrade". I'm not happy with package manglement and I try to avoid Yast as much as possible, but that is only because of my lack of experience. So no FUD from my side... -- Amedee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Michael S. Dunsavage

19:11

...

I'm not happy with package manglement and I try to avoid Yast as much as possible, but that is only because of my lack of experience. So no FUD from my side...

-- Amedee

Just what is about the package "manglement" you're not happy about? And why avoid Yast? I think Yast is a great for installing software as well as configuring the firewall and system and hardware and well, everything. You want to use the world mannglement instead of management and say you avoid Yast as much as you can and then you say it's not FUD........ If you have questions about Yast, and that's why you're avoiding it, by all means ask on here, we'll help you. Or look @ http://en.opensuse.org/YaST -- Michael S. Dunsavage -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

20:18

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

...

...
I'm not happy with package manglement and I try to avoid Yast as much as possible, but that is only because of my lack of experience. So no FUD from my side...

-- Amedee

Just what is about the package "manglement" you're not happy about?

Had you used Ubuntu for any length of time as Amedee mentions, you would see that it is much simpler in this regard. Perhaps not as powerful as Yast in all respects, but pretty intuitive and very fast. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

20:35

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 4:18 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

Had you used Ubuntu for any length of time as Amedee mentions, you would see that it is much simpler in this regard. Perhaps not as powerful as Yast in all respects, but pretty intuitive and very fast.

One of the biggest reasons I have stayed with SuSE and openSUSE is YaST. Not having really used uBuntu to any extent, I can't comment on it's config tools, but so far nothing I have used has been anywhere near as comprehensive as YaST. While I do some configs by editing the actual files, I do drop into YaST if I'm not exactly sure of what I want to do. To be honest, I don't even use YaST that much once the system is up and running It's a very seldom used utility, but it's always good to know it's there if I need it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

20:44

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 1:35 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 4:18 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...
Had you used Ubuntu for any length of time as Amedee mentions, you would see that it is much simpler in this regard. Perhaps not as powerful as Yast in all respects, but pretty intuitive and very fast.

One of the biggest reasons I have stayed with SuSE and openSUSE is YaST. Not having really used uBuntu to any extent, I can't comment on it's config tools, but so far nothing I have used has been anywhere near as comprehensive as YaST.

You have that exactly correct, Larry. I was speaking strictly of software management being somewhat easier in ubuntu than in yast, but as far as other setup options yast wins hands down.

...

While I do some configs by editing the actual files, I do drop into YaST if I'm not exactly sure of what I want to do.

And I wish yast has an option to show a little pop-up window as you select each option to tell you what you will be changing. You might want to hide this so as not to scare off Joe Sixpack, but it would be nice to know exactly what files and config lines in sysconfig would be modified when I select an option for a printer, or a service, etc. More educational as well. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Amedee Van Gasse

25 Aug 25 Aug

18:45

John Andersen schreef:

...

...
While I do some configs by editing the actual files, I do drop into YaST if I'm not exactly sure of what I want to do.

And I wish yast has an option to show a little pop-up window as you select each option to tell you what you will be changing. You might want to hide this so as not to scare off Joe Sixpack, but it would be nice to know exactly what files and config lines in sysconfig would be modified when I select an option for a printer, or a service, etc. More educational as well.

I will definitely consider YaST when they add that feature! -- Amedee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Amedee Van Gasse

18:43

Michael S. Dunsavage schreef:

...

...
I'm not happy with package manglement and I try to avoid Yast as much as possible, but that is only because of my lack of experience. So no FUD from my side...

-- Amedee

Just what is about the package "manglement" you're not happy about?

I don't know, it just feels a bit awkward for someone who is used to apt-get/aptitude on Debian and Ubuntu. And before that I emerged everything on Gentoo.

...

And why avoid Yast? I think Yast is a great for installing software as well as configuring the firewall and system and hardware and well, everything.

Because I like to tinker. I like to edit the config files myself so that I *really* know what I'm doing. I don't like it when configuration software changes things behind my back.

...

You want to use the world mannglement instead of management and say you avoid Yast as much as you can and then you say it's not FUD........

I always use the word manglement, but most of the time when I'm talking about people. You know, the people in suits. It's just a word.

...

If you have questions about Yast, and that's why you're avoiding it, by all means ask on here, we'll help you. Or look @ http://en.opensuse.org/YaST

I will when I need it. But so far I was able to help myself with vi, so no need for YaST. Thank you anyway. -- Amedee -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mike

19:22

On Monday 25 August 2008 20:43, Amedee Van Gasse wrote:

...

...
Just what is about the package "manglement" you're not happy about?

I don't know, it just feels a bit awkward for someone who is used to apt-get/aptitude on Debian and Ubuntu. And before that I emerged everything on Gentoo.

Everytime I've tried a Deb style distro, Apt drives me nuts. It's not what I'm used to. That doesn't mean it isn't good. It's all about what you are used to.

...

...
And why avoid Yast? I think Yast is a great for installing software as well as configuring the firewall and system and hardware and well, everything.

Because I like to tinker. I like to edit the config files myself so that I *really* know what I'm doing. I don't like it when configuration software changes things behind my back.

Some I do like this, and for some Yast is just a simple and just works. After a while you get a feel for what will work, and what won't. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 10.0 Kernel 2.6.13 X86_64 KDE 3.4 Kmail 1.8 9:19pm up 33 days 6:29, 4 users, load average: 3.23, 3.20, 3.20 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joop Beris

10:36

On Thursday 21 August 2008 10:03:41 pm John Andersen wrote:

...

Ah, but the root of your problem was not opensuse 11.0, but rather the unfinished kde 4.1

I thought so too at first, but this is NOT true. I have now installed openSUSE 11 on this laptop, with KDE 3.5.9. with latest updates and KNetworkmanager displays the same symptoms it did on openSUSE 11 with KDE 4.1. So the problem isn't KDE 4, it's somehow related to openSUSE 11. Regards, Joop ------------------------------------------------------------ Dit bericht is gescand op virussen en andere gevaarlijke inhoud door MailScanner en lijkt schoon te zijn. Mailscanner door http://www.prosolit.nl Professional Solutions fot IT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Robert Smits

16:23

On August 25, 2008 03:36:33 am Joop Beris wrote:

...

On Thursday 21 August 2008 10:03:41 pm John Andersen wrote:

...
Ah, but the root of your problem was not opensuse 11.0, but rather the unfinished kde 4.1

I thought so too at first, but this is NOT true. I have now installed openSUSE 11 on this laptop, with KDE 3.5.9. with latest updates and KNetworkmanager displays the same symptoms it did on openSUSE 11 with KDE 4.1. So the problem isn't KDE 4, it's somehow related to openSUSE 11.

Mark Misulich

17:09

Yes, and in this regard it appears to be Network Manager that's at fault. It also doesn't play well with scpm (and I don't know which program is at fault) so you can't use Network Manager (knetwork manager is a gui front end for network manager) if you need to configure changing nfs networks, for example. Hi, I also think that the problem is knetwork manager. There is a bug opened for the problem on Bugzilla on 64 bit systems. I opened one for 32 bit systems but the bugzilla managers combined my bug into the 64 bit knetworkmanager bug. The programmers are working on fixing it now, but who knows when it will be resolved. One of the other posters on the list suggested to me that I install a program called compat-wireless to get knetworkmanager working correctly. It did improve it considerably. I am not near my linux computer so can't double check the name of the program, but if you go through my posts for this month you can verify the name of the rpm. The original poster used that program from the build service, but I just used the ones by that name found in yast and they seem to work fine. Hope this info helps you out. Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joop Beris

10:22

Hello listmates, Replying to oneself is usually not a good sign, but I wanted to bring you all up to speed. On Thursday 21 August 2008 04:43:30 pm Joop Beris wrote:

...

After this, I have decided to give up and go back to openSUSE 10.3, which has worked relatively flawlessly for me. It just seems to me that the openSUSE 11.0/KDE 4.1 combination is not mature enough yet to be unleashed on the general public.

I have done a fresh install openSUSE 11 on my laptop again. Wiped the root partition and installed openSUSE 11 and KDE 3.5 as graphical desktop. Things worked great for a while...but not anymore. I can now safely say that the problem with KNetworkmanager I am having, is NOT related to KDE 4. KNetworkmanager also does not work at all with openSUSE 11 and KD 3.5. In /var/log/Knetworkmanager, the following line is logged over and over again: Aug 25 09:27:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the supplicant... Aug 25 09:27:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the system settings daemon... Aug 25 09:29:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the supplicant... Aug 25 09:29:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the system settings daemon... Aug 25 09:31:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the supplicant... Aug 25 09:31:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the system settings daemon... Aug 25 09:33:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the supplicant... Aug 25 09:33:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the system settings daemon... Aug 25 09:35:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the supplicant... Aug 25 09:35:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the system settings daemon... Aug 25 09:37:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the supplicant... Aug 25 09:37:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the system settings daemon... Aug 25 09:39:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the supplicant... Aug 25 09:39:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the system settings daemon... KNetworkmanager is dumb and stays dumb, no matter if I plug in a cable or not. Wireless networks are not found, but iwlist wlan0 scan does show networks, so I know the wireless card is working. The only way I can get on any network is through manual configuration. The odd thing is, everything did work before the previous kernel update. Also the kernel itself doesn't matter. I tried with both the default and the pae kernel. So it seems openSUSE 11 and this laptop (HP nc6320) just are not on friendly terms with eachother, which is weird, since it ran fine for about a year on openSUSE 10.3. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get my automatic network configuration back? Thanks, Joop ------------------------------------------------------------ Dit bericht is gescand op virussen en andere gevaarlijke inhoud door MailScanner en lijkt schoon te zijn. Mailscanner door http://www.prosolit.nl Professional Solutions fot IT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte

14:11

On Monday 25 August 2008 03:22:59 am Joop Beris wrote:

...

I have done a fresh install openSUSE 11 on my laptop again. Wiped the root partition and installed openSUSE 11 and KDE 3.5 as graphical desktop. Things worked great for a while...but not anymore.

I can now safely say that the problem with KNetworkmanager I am having, is NOT related to KDE 4. KNetworkmanager also does not work at all with openSUSE 11 and KD 3.5.

In /var/log/Knetworkmanager, the following line is logged over and over again: Aug 25 09:27:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the supplicant... Aug 25 09:27:23 deepthought NetworkManager: <info> Trying to start the system settings daemon...

That's because your computer will take seven and a half million years to come up with the answer to why the daemon won't start. Try another name for your system. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joop Beris

26 Aug 26 Aug

06:28

On Monday 25 August 2008 04:11:11 pm Kai Ponte wrote:

...

That's because your computer will take seven and a half million years to come up with the answer to why the daemon won't start.

Try another name for your system.

Oh dear...the mice will be very upset. Joop ------------------------------------------------------------ Dit bericht is gescand op virussen en andere gevaarlijke inhoud door MailScanner en lijkt schoon te zijn. Mailscanner door http://www.prosolit.nl Professional Solutions fot IT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte

14:29

On Monday 25 August 2008 11:28:48 pm Joop Beris wrote:

...

On Monday 25 August 2008 04:11:11 pm Kai Ponte wrote:

...
That's because your computer will take seven and a half million years to come up with the answer to why the daemon won't start.

Try another name for your system.

Oh dear...the mice will be very upset.

ROTFL! Sorry I couldn't provide a better answer. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joop Beris

14:29

On Tuesday 26 August 2008 04:29:28 pm Kai Ponte wrote:

...

...
Oh dear...the mice will be very upset.

ROTFL!

Sorry I couldn't provide a better answer.

That's fine. :-) Good to know someone else enjoys that book! Joop ------------------------------------------------------------ Dit bericht is gescand op virussen en andere gevaarlijke inhoud door MailScanner en lijkt schoon te zijn. Mailscanner door http://www.prosolit.nl Professional Solutions fot IT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte

15:12

On Tuesday 26 August 2008 07:29:56 am Joop Beris wrote:

...

On Tuesday 26 August 2008 04:29:28 pm Kai Ponte wrote:

...
...
Oh dear...the mice will be very upset.

ROTFL!

Sorry I couldn't provide a better answer.

That's fine. :-) Good to know someone else enjoys that book!

I'm still trying to solve the infocom game. (Notice the size of the file.) -- kai www.filesite.org || www.4thedadz.com || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request

Joop Beris

28 Aug 28 Aug

20:48

Hello listmates, I've finally gave up tinkering on messing around with (K)Networkmanager, and decided to file a buzilla report for it. For the life of me, I can't figure out why it's not working, so I hope the devs can come up with something. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=420995 I'm willing to test solutions! Regards, Joop

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Amedee Van Gasse
Brian K. White
Clayton
Damon Register
Duaine & Laura Hechler
Eddie
Hans de Faber
Jay Mistry
John Andersen
John E. Perry
Joop Beris
Joop Beris
Kai Ponte
Larry Stotler
lynn
Mark A. Taff
Mark Misulich
Michael S. Dunsavage
Mike
Patrick Shanahan
peter nikolic
Rajko M.
Randall R Schulz
Robert Smits
Scarlett Clark