I came across this article below, and it looks like the System D implementation on Debian has caused a great deal of havoc and alienation amongst devs and admins, so a fork is potentially in the works. I was wondering if a similar interest is also present in the openSUSE community? Is openSUSE going to become one huge monolith where practically every package is dependent on each other, and, the user is forced into a corner? For instance, that atrocious Baloo virus that runs by default on a new KDE install will start indexing before you allowed it to, and can't be removed because it's dependent on so many things. Part of it can be removed (last I checked), but not the entire thing. If things are going to become one big monolith, which obviously is contrary to the Unix philosophy, why not just run Windows? It seems like more people than not don't like System D, and Lennart Poettering's attitude has been described as rude, egocentric and childish which doesn't help the case. PulseAudio was also developed by Pottering, and I don't like it at all as it's just one more broken piece of software on top of the already overly complex Linux sound stack. I've had problems with it, and it has provided me zero benefit. Anyway, I think the System D debate here should continue as not everybody here is swallowing the System D Kool-Aide. http://debianfork.org/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/21/unix_greybeards_threaten_debian_fork... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Debian forks multiple times a year, while opensuse forks are very rare. Look here: http://futurist.se/gldt/wp-content/uploads/12.10/gldt1210.svg -- Florian Gleixner SV des Bibliotheksverbund Bayern, Verbundzentrale im Leibniz-Rechenzentrum Boltzmannstr. 1 85748 Garching Tel.: 089-35831-8824 Fax.: 089-35831-8624 e-mail: gleixner@bib-bvb.de e-mail: gleixner@lrz.de
On Wednesday 22 Oct 2014 00:40:58 Sam M. wrote:
I came across this article below, and it looks like the System D implementation on Debian has caused a great deal of havoc and alienation amongst devs and admins, so a fork is potentially in the works. I was wondering if a similar interest is also present in the openSUSE community? Is openSUSE going to become one huge monolith where practically every package is dependent on each other, and, the user is forced into a corner? For instance, that atrocious Baloo virus that runs by default on a new KDE install will start indexing before you allowed it to, and can't be removed because it's dependent on so many things. Part of it can be removed (last I checked), but not the entire thing. If things are going to become one big monolith, which obviously is contrary to the Unix philosophy, why not just run Windows?
It seems like more people than not don't like System D, and Lennart Poettering's attitude has been described as rude, egocentric and childish which doesn't help the case. PulseAudio was also developed by Pottering, and I don't like it at all as it's just one more broken piece of software on top of the already overly complex Linux sound stack. I've had problems with it, and it has provided me zero benefit. Anyway, I think the System D debate here should continue as not everybody here is swallowing the System D Kool-Aide.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/10/21/unix_greybeards_threaten_debian_fork _over_systemd_plan/
Vote with your keyboard and go to a distro that doesn;t use anything you don't like. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/22/2014 03:40 AM, Sam M. wrote:
It seems like more people than not don't like System D,
I can see why you might think that. it is often the case that a subject which a few find objectionable gets more publicity because that mnority are more vocal. I think that for everyone who is vocal about not liking systemd there are 500 to 20,000 who accept it. Its not about linking it or not liking it. Its no more about liking it than liking five ligs/bolts on each wheel of your car -- except for the vocal majority who drive Fords because its more efficient and easier to change wheels when you have on 4 to undo and redo. As if anyone notices or cares. Yes its a ridiculous example. That's my point. The peoeple who drive the cars don't notice and don't care. But then for most people the underlying OS and how it boots, whether its LILO or GRUB or GRUB2, whether its W/XP, W/7 or W/8 all doesn't matter either. The see the application. Its only the 'geeks' like us that care. I had my 12"[1] Samsung tablet at a conference and someone was admiring it. He asked if that was Outlook. Yes he'd heard of Android, tablets and all, but he used a laptop with a slightly larger screen and all mail programs must be Outlook, all web browsers must be IE. The irony is that he was an experienced head-hunter -- had been placing IT people for over 25 years. He claimed to know enough about the technology candidates used so they couldn't white-wash him. But all these were just words to him, it seems. A vocal group object to systemd. You can find a vocal group that object to just about anything, regardless of evidence. That's their right. But when that group threaten to or actually take violent action, that's another matter. if you are willing to put the effort into a fork then fine. But please do not tell the rest of us that we have to go with you. Don't expect or force the majority to support your efforts with their time or money. The "more than not" argument does not hold. That the people who are happy with systemd don't scream about it the way the detractors do, that they don't go around spreading lies and misinformation, that they don't threaten the detractors with physical violence, does not mean they don't exist. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/22/2014 03:40 AM, Sam M. wrote:
I came across this article below, and it looks like the System D implementation on Debian has caused a great deal of havoc and alienation amongst devs and admins, so a fork is potentially in the works. I was wondering if a similar interest is also present in the openSUSE community? Is openSUSE going to become one huge monolith where practically every package is dependent on each other, and, the user is forced into a corner? For instance, that atrocious Baloo virus that runs by default on a new KDE install will start indexing before you allowed it to, and can't be removed because it's dependent on so many things. Part of it can be removed (last I checked), but not the entire thing. If things are going to become one big monolith, which obviously is contrary to the Unix philosophy, why not just run Windows?
It seems like more people than not don't like System D, and Lennart Poettering's attitude has been described as rude, egocentric and childish which doesn't help the case. PulseAudio was also developed by Pottering, and I don't like it at all as it's just one more broken piece of software on top of the already overly complex Linux sound stack. I've had problems with it, and it has provided me zero benefit. Anyway, I think the System D debate here should continue
Not a problem. There is a "Soapbox" forum for these types of discussions available, take it there. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Hey, One *last* time: This isn't a discussion list about Linux implementation details, politics or people. This is the user to user support list where people help each other with their problems with the openSUSE Distribution. If you can't stay on topic, I moderate you. This thread is dead now. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Mailinglist Admin http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/22/2014 02:40 AM, Sam M. wrote:
I came across this article below, and it looks like the System D implementation on Debian has caused a great deal of havoc and alienation amongst devs and admins, so a fork is potentially in the works.
Sam, Just for the record, it's just plain old 'systemd' (no fancy caps). Perhaps a bit of background will help everyone. Just about 4 years ago Arch started the planning to move to systemd. (see Arch thread: "When will Arch switch to Systemd") About 10 months later Arch made the switch. During that period of time there was an extended discussion over the merits of systemd verses traditional SysV and the drawbacks as well. There were 2 camps, deeply entrenched, and passionate over their respective positions. As I can imagine Debian is facing, there were threatened defections, walk-outs, forks, etc... Out of the discussion, Arch saw systemd as the future (Allan is seldom wrong), but knowing there would be a few rough patches during the transition. So beginning November 2011, the transition was made. Most of the resistance and criticism usually fell into to categories: (1) the kicking and screaming that came for users that truly did not understand systemd or the benefits it could provide; and (2) those that didn't completely understand systemd, but knew enough to know the changes in administering a linux box would require a fundamental relearning of application control and logging along with the time it would take to implement that change (especially at the organization level). (Note: any time there is significant relearning required, us older dogs get really touchy about upsetting the apple-cart). And to be fair, there should probably be a 3rd category: (3) those that understood systemd, but saw no benefit to moving to it at that particular time and thought the better course would be to let it mature a bit in other distros and when benefits and stability were clear, make the move at that time. One additional thing to consider is whether the people bringing you systemd are some new, unknown group of coders touting what they think is the latest killer init, or whether the push behind it comes from the open-source leaders in the community. Freedesktop.org certainly falls into the later category (though they are not without misstep) So you throw all this into the mix and think about how it applies to Debian, a longstanding traditional distribution. There is no question that they are going through, what all distributions go though, in deciding on whether, and when, to move to systemd. If you review their discussions on it, the arguments against will probably fall into one of the three categories above. Will this lead to a fork in Deb? -- I doubt it. If the management at Debian were smarter, would they have found to transition to systemd without setting the devs hair on-fire -- of course, but nobody seems smart enough to learn from history, managers or world-leaders alike. As for openSuSE? Will there be a fork? (Ummm... WTF are you talking about?) OpenSuSE has already moved to systemd (albeit systemd 'lite' retaining consolekit for desktop user-session tracking, etc..). The only time a fork would have been possible was when openSuSE was where Debian is now. (that ship has sailed) So no, no fork here. (unless Christian is part of some underground SysV conspiracy and does something that really surprises us all). What are the lessons? If you haven't pickup up on it, then: The first would be: if you do not fully understand the benefits provided by systemd as well as the trade-offs involved -- do not whine or complain (you fall into categories (1) or (2) above.) If you fall into (3) be part of the discussion on planning and help develop a migration path that works for all devs and minimizes impact on users. If admittedly you fall into (1) or (2), you ultimately have to learn to trust the people setting the direction for the distro based on their understanding of the benefits to the distro and there ability to manage the transition. (there really are times when you just have to trust the smartest guy in the room) Finally, change does take work, but with systemd, after a steep (but short) learning curve, you find there is really not much difference from an administration standpoint. It works fine, the lingering timing issues will get fixed, there are workarounds to all of them, and in the end -- there really was no need for all the kicking and screaming that signaled the sky was falling to begin with.... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Saturday 25 Oct 2014 16:44:01 David C. Rankin wrote:
On 10/22/2014 02:40 AM, Sam M. wrote:
I came across this article below, and it looks like the System D implementation on Debian has caused a great deal of havoc and alienation amongst devs and admins, so a fork is potentially in the works.
Sam,
snip
was falling to begin with....
Nicely put, you are now allowed to get a cake :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (7)
-
Anton Aylward -
David C. Rankin -
Florian Gleixner -
Henne Vogelsang -
ianseeks -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Sam M.