Re: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

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Mark Hounschell

24 Jan 2017 24 Jan '17

15:40

You should have posted to the list. In any case.... On 01/24/2017 10:13 AM, stakanov wrote:

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In data martedì 24 gennaio 2017 09:55:34, Mark Hounschell ha scritto:

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On 01/19/2017 07:18 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-01-20 01:09, Anton Aylward wrote:

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On 01/19/2017 04:33 PM, stakanov wrote:

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Sorry but this is senseless. 13.2 received yesterday the out of support notice. It is deprecated and will not receive any updates or security updates. So you better fix the problem you have instead of searching for a new one.>> No, its not senseless. After all, there are many other repositories that can deal with updates anyway, ignoring the official ones.

For example, I use the Kernel_Stable repository for my kernel updates rather than the official 13.2 repository. There also the Mozilla repository, language, LibreOffice and many more.

All those repos will stop producing things for 13.2 in a matter of weeks if not days.

Sorry, but I also think that installing 13.2 now is senseless, except for testing or proving a point.

It's senseless unless you want a machine that JUST works. I will be using the repos described above for my 13.2 installations for the foreseeable future.

I installed Leap 42.2 this morning and it was a nogo for me.

First, in the expert partitioning, for every partition I setup (ext4) upon completion the partitioner barfed and spit out some message about debugging the problem (experts only) and had to reenter the expert partitioning for each partition I set up. Fortunately my settings were not lost and I was actually allowed to set them up as I did in 13.2.

Then I noticed I could get to no virtual consoles during the install or even after the install was complete and at the graphical login screen. What's up with that?

Then when I logged in I get a black screen with a mouse cursor. Mouse buttons do nothing and had no desktop at all.

Come on. Install problems? Dead machine after install? IMHO, Leap should be more stable than this. It's like I was back in the SuSE 7.0 days. No thanks.

Mark

Well, maybe to tell you what happened, one would have to know: Did you do an update or a fresh install with formatting root? Fresh install. Reformatting boot and root Do you have an AMD graphics card? Nvidia? Intel? Nvidia What is your RAM? 8GB Did you read the release note? No You can get virtual consoles any time, nothing changed from 13.2-42.1-42.2. My mistake here. I forgot the F-Lock key on this keyboard. When you logged in..... what desktop did you set to use? Default (Plasma 5) Did you maintain the home? Yes but I login as root or user with same results. Did you try to set up a new empty user to see if the problems were user dependent (local settings) or if this is really a problem with the graphics driver?

Just the root account.

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Come on. Install problems? Dead machine after install because you run into quirks with proprietary driver or because you do an update over two generations (jumping right away 42.1). Yeap that can of course happen. Black screen with a mouse coursor indicates more of a graphics problem (probably plasma crashed). If you wait long enough it should come back all alone (is the case since 42.1 that plasma once crashed generally autostarts.

Standard install. No proprietary drivers. I'm not here for help on this. There is nothing "senseless" about staying on 13.2 for the time being. If I need help with a _basic_ install of Leap on hardware that works on 13.2, I will stay with 13.2. The install was just an exercise to see where it is. Can I use this yet sort of thing. I'll try 42.3 when it arrives, but until then I'll be sticking with 13.2. Regards Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Show replies by date

Richard Brown

24 Jan 24 Jan

16:04

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

On 24 January 2017 at 16:40, Mark Hounschell wrote:

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I'm not here for help on this. There is nothing "senseless" about staying on 13.2 for the time being. If I need help with a _basic_ install of Leap on hardware that works on 13.2, I will stay with 13.2. The install was just an exercise to see where it is. Can I use this yet sort of thing. I'll try 42.3 when it arrives, but until then I'll be sticking with 13.2.

senseless - lacking common sense; wildly foolish. openSUSE 13.2 is no longer receiving any security updates Leap 42.3 will likely be available earlier than November 2017, but that still means a period of months where you will be running a machine that will be vulnerable to major security vulnerabilities. If a 13.2 machine is connected to the internet, I would consider it's use from this point to be lacking common sense and wildly foolish, therefore, senseless. If people wish to continue using 13.2, fine. If people on this list wish to continue giving 13.2 users advice, fine. But I think it's fine and fair to call those actions senseless. While it could be seen to be disrespectful, sometimes ignorance or poor judgement needs to be challenged and it is clearly in the best interest of 13.2 users to cease using 13.2 as soon as possible if they wish their systems to remain secure on the internet or stable with new hardware and peripherals. Your issue with the expert partitioner is lacking sufficient detail for me to help you debug it - and I have little desire to extend much more help on that topic given the attitude displayed. I would expect an 'expert' using the expert partitioner to file a bug. But I will say that ext4 installations work absolutely fine when using the 'non-expert' "Edit Proposal Settings" or "Create Partition Setup" options in the installer. The "Create Partition Setup" wizard lets you pick a filesystem of your choice while simultaneously letting you choose which partitions to reuse/leave untouched, which sounds like exactly what you were aiming for. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

16:25

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

Richard Brown wrote:

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On 24 January 2017 at 16:40, Mark Hounschell wrote:

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I'm not here for help on this. There is nothing "senseless" about staying on 13.2 for the time being. If I need help with a _basic_ install of Leap on hardware that works on 13.2, I will stay with 13.2. The install was just an exercise to see where it is. Can I use this yet sort of thing. I'll try 42.3 when it arrives, but until then I'll be sticking with 13.2.

senseless - lacking common sense; wildly foolish.

[big snip] While it could be seen to be disrespectful, sometimes ignorance or poor judgement needs to be challenged and it is clearly in the best interest of 13.2 users to cease using 13.2 as soon as possible if they wish their systems to remain secure on the internet or stable with new hardware and peripherals.

That is certainly true - as you say, "as soon as possible". Hence, until it is possible to migrate, it makes a lot of sense to remain. Even for new installations. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-4.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

16:29

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

On 24 January 2017 at 17:25, Per Jessen wrote:

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Richard Brown wrote:

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On 24 January 2017 at 16:40, Mark Hounschell wrote:

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I'm not here for help on this. There is nothing "senseless" about staying on 13.2 for the time being. If I need help with a _basic_ install of Leap on hardware that works on 13.2, I will stay with 13.2. The install was just an exercise to see where it is. Can I use this yet sort of thing. I'll try 42.3 when it arrives, but until then I'll be sticking with 13.2.

senseless - lacking common sense; wildly foolish.

[big snip] While it could be seen to be disrespectful, sometimes ignorance or poor judgement needs to be challenged and it is clearly in the best interest of 13.2 users to cease using 13.2 as soon as possible if they wish their systems to remain secure on the internet or stable with new hardware and peripherals.

That is certainly true - as you say, "as soon as possible". Hence, until it is possible to migrate, it makes a lot of sense to remain. Even for new installations.

It is possible. We've tested it. It works. We wouldn't have shipped it otherwise. If there are caveats, the mitigations for those caveats include workarounds and bug reports. Keeping with openSUSE 13.2 when it is unmaintained and vulnerable is senseless. We will not be testing migrations from openSUSE 13.2 to Leap 42.3 If it works, great, but people shouldn't expect it to. They should spend their efforts working with what we do have, do support, and do work to improve..not clinging to something which is now, by definition and clear public pronouncement, obsolete. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Andrei Borzenkov

17:19

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

24.01.2017 19:29, Richard Brown пишет:

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We will not be testing migrations from openSUSE 13.2 to Leap 42.3

Mark did clean new install with formatting filesystems. Where have you got idea about "migration from openSUSE 13.2"? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

17:39

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

Richard Brown wrote:

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On 24 January 2017 at 17:25, Per Jessen wrote:

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Richard Brown wrote:

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On 24 January 2017 at 16:40, Mark Hounschell wrote:

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I'm not here for help on this. There is nothing "senseless" about staying on 13.2 for the time being. If I need help with a _basic_ install of Leap on hardware that works on 13.2, I will stay with 13.2. The install was just an exercise to see where it is. Can I use this yet sort of thing. I'll try 42.3 when it arrives, but until then I'll be sticking with 13.2.

senseless - lacking common sense; wildly foolish.

[big snip] While it could be seen to be disrespectful, sometimes ignorance or poor judgement needs to be challenged and it is clearly in the best interest of 13.2 users to cease using 13.2 as soon as possible if they wish their systems to remain secure on the internet or stable with new hardware and peripherals.

That is certainly true - as you say, "as soon as possible". Hence, until it is possible to migrate, it makes a lot of sense to remain. Even for new installations.

It is possible. We've tested it. It works. We wouldn't have shipped it otherwise.

I beg to differ. We didn't test it well enough. Depending on the context, there are a number of bugs that prevent one from moving to Leap42x. I posted a list last week I think; these prevent me from moving office desktops to Leap42x. I also had one show-stopper that prevented some servers from running Leap42x, but that was fixed 1-2 weeks ago. https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=905034 Descr: psychedelic colours in scans. Workaround: remain on 13.2. https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1012299 Descr: wicked does not work (rfkill prob). Workaround: use NetworkManager, but it doesn't work with systemd::fstab mounts. https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1011196 Descr: firefox rendering problem, reported upstream. Workaround: none. https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1015478 Descr: printing an a4 pdf from okular comes out scaled down to apprx a5. Workaround: remain on 13.2. https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1006175 Descr: zypper dup from leap421 renders system unbootable (now fixed, release notes amended).

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If there are caveats, the mitigations for those caveats include workarounds and bug reports. Keeping with openSUSE 13.2 when it is unmaintained and vulnerable is senseless.

I'll have to check the bugreports, but the only workaround I'm aware of is to remain on 13.2. Makes sense. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-4.2°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen

18:51

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

On 01/24/2017 08:29 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

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Keeping with openSUSE 13.2 when it is unmaintained and vulnerable is senseless.

It was fine the day maintenance ran out. It suddenly became senseless the day YOU looked away? What is senseless is dropping a perfectly fine release when many users are having such basic problems with your latest release, and when so many had skipped 42.1 because of the same problems that still block 42.2 install The lock-in EOL edicts are senseless. IINBDFI. If, like some here, you can not get 42.2 working, then converting to 42.2 is senseless. Filing a bug report does not get one's work done. Your machine is down, you can't install, and your best advice is file a bug report? -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

michael norman

18:59

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

On 24/01/17 18:51, John Andersen wrote:

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On 01/24/2017 08:29 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

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Keeping with openSUSE 13.2 when it is unmaintained and vulnerable is senseless.

It was fine the day maintenance ran out. It suddenly became senseless the day YOU looked away?

What is senseless is dropping a perfectly fine release when many users are having such basic problems with your latest release, and when so many had skipped 42.1 because of the same problems that still block 42.2 install The lock-in EOL edicts are senseless. IINBDFI.

If, like some here, you can not get 42.2 working, then converting to 42.2 is senseless.

Filing a bug report does not get one's work done. Your machine is down, you can't install, and your best advice is file a bug report?

Absolutely plus one here. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Mark Hounschell

19:28

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

On 01/24/2017 01:59 PM, michael norman wrote:

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On 24/01/17 18:51, John Andersen wrote:

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On 01/24/2017 08:29 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

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Keeping with openSUSE 13.2 when it is unmaintained and vulnerable is senseless.

It was fine the day maintenance ran out. It suddenly became senseless the day YOU looked away?

What is senseless is dropping a perfectly fine release when many users are having such basic problems with your latest release, and when so many had skipped 42.1 because of the same problems that still block 42.2 install The lock-in EOL edicts are senseless. IINBDFI.

If, like some here, you can not get 42.2 working, then converting to 42.2 is senseless.

Filing a bug report does not get one's work done. Your machine is down, you can't install, and your best advice is file a bug report?

Absolutely plus one here.

Plus two here. Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Inge Oestmoen

20:33

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

Richard Brown wrote:

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Keeping with openSUSE 13.2 when it is unmaintained and vulnerable is senseless.

If the system works and is fully functional, why not?

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We will not be testing migrations from openSUSE 13.2 to Leap 42.3

That is understandable, it cannot be expected that people who are busy working with software should test software which is no longer maintained and developed further.

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If it works, great, but people shouldn't expect it to. They should spend their efforts working with what we do have, do support, and do work to improve..not clinging to something which is now, by definition and clear public pronouncement, obsolete.

A piece of software that is fully functional and does what the user wants it to do on compatible hardware, is not obsolete. It may be advisable to refrain from connecting to the internet if security issues are serious and cannot realistically be counteracted effectively with that software, but that is entirely another topic. Let the proprietary software manufacturers try to force their subscription schemes and cloud computing on us, we should be thankful for representing an alternative. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

22:10

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

On 24 January 2017 at 21:33, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

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Richard Brown wrote:

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Keeping with openSUSE 13.2 when it is unmaintained and vulnerable is senseless.

If the system works and is fully functional, why not?

Look at how many issues we fix due to security issues: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-security-announce/2017-01/ Then consider that in addition to that we regularly fix things that are not security relevant, but are important issues for users. It's probably also worth accepting that sometimes we fix security issues by accident while fixing those non-security issues. All of that. All of the security issues, all of the non security issues, has now ceased for 13.2

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It may be advisable to refrain from connecting to the internet if security issues are serious and cannot realistically be counteracted effectively with that software, but that is entirely another topic. Let the proprietary software manufacturers try to force their subscription schemes and cloud computing on us, we should be thankful for representing an alternative.

You wrote your email from a machine claiming to be a Macbook Pro running Firefox 42.0 on OS X 10.6 If this is true, your operating system is out of support and has been for almost 3 years Your browser is out of support and you should really consider upgrading to Firefox 59 or Firefox ESR 52.x This isn't a proprietary vs open source thing. Both development models rely on developers to keep on securing systems against the threats that are out there. Without those developers constantly and vigilantly patching out security vulnerabilities, every user of that software is at risk. openSUSE 13.2 no longer has anyone looking into it's packages. It is no longer providing security updates. Any user still using openSUSE 13.2 is at an increased risk of immeasurable security issues. Of course there is nothing I can do to compel someone to take my advice, but anyone who ignores it should do so with a fair understanding of the risks they are taking. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

22:25

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

On 2017-01-24 23:10, Richard Brown wrote:

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openSUSE 13.2 no longer has anyone looking into it's packages. It is no longer providing security updates. Any user still using openSUSE 13.2 is at an increased risk of immeasurable security issues.

Of course there is nothing I can do to compel someone to take my advice, but anyone who ignores it should do so with a fair understanding of the risks they are taking.

Yes, absolutely. We can say that it is not that nobody should run 13.2 now, but that people doing that should be well aware of what they are doing, what are the risks. That also means that we can not advise anybody to run 13.2 now. That somebody decides to do it is different from advising it here. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Per Jessen

22:27

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

Richard Brown wrote:

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Of course there is nothing I can do to compel someone to take my advice, but anyone who ignores it should do so with a fair understanding of the risks they are taking.

It's getting close to bedtime here, but I wish to agree with what Richard says above and only add that it applies equally well to my recommendation to stick to openSUSE 13.2 when you _depend_ on a working system for 8-5 office work. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-4.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Roger Oberholtzer

25 Jan 25 Jan

06:33

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 11:27 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

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Richard Brown wrote:

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Of course there is nothing I can do to compel someone to take my advice, but anyone who ignores it should do so with a fair understanding of the risks they are taking.

It's getting close to bedtime here, but I wish to agree with what Richard says above and only add that it applies equally well to my recommendation to stick to openSUSE 13.2 when you _depend_ on a working system for 8-5 office work.

We are the same with 13.1. It works for us. We are looking to move from that in 2018 (we do long term planning for these moves...). We'll see what the landscape looks like at that time. The only problem we have had with sticking with an older release has been on a server in our company's DMZ. All exposed servers are periodically tested by an independent external company to identify security risks. Our server was deemed to be running too old versions of the exposed services. Updating some of these services on an old OS led to RPM hell. Newer versions were not available. Building them required newer development versions of many libraries. And the effect just rippled. We eventually decided to update the server. As a new install. -- Roger Oberholtzer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Inge Oestmoen

16:02

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

Richard Brown wrote:

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On 24 January 2017 at 21:33, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

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Richard Brown wrote:

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Keeping with openSUSE 13.2 when it is unmaintained and vulnerable is senseless.

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If the system works and is fully functional, why not?

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Look at how many issues we fix due to security issues:

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https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-security-announce/2017-01/ Then consider that in addition to that we regularly fix things that are not security relevant, but are important issues for users. It's probably also worth accepting that sometimes we fix security issues by accident while fixing those non-security issues. All of that. All of the security issues, all of the non security issues, has now ceased for 13.2

That is understood by most if not all users who are aware of the fact that every development of openSUSE 13.2 is over.

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It may be advisable to refrain from connecting to the internet if security issues are serious and cannot realistically be counteracted effectively with that software, but that is entirely another topic. Let the proprietary software manufacturers try to force their subscription schemes and cloud computing on us, we should be thankful for representing an alternative.

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You wrote your email from a machine claiming to be a Macbook Pro running Firefox 42.0 on OS X 10.6

That was the other machine, this is another running openSUSE 13.2 and with Seamonkey as e-mail client.

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If this is true, your operating system is out of support and has been for almost 3 years Your browser is out of support and you should really consider upgrading to Firefox 59 or Firefox ESR 52.x

The thing is; Upgrading to ever new operating systems entails serious challenges: One is severe incompatibility issues with existing programs that are fully functional and frequently cannot be replaced arise all the time of one upgrades uncritically. Also, a computer that is such upgraded will be gradually less functional over time because software programs tend to be larger and demand ever more of the hardware. Thus, the software upgrade frenzy leads to the need to buy new computers much more frequently than what would have been the case in a more sane economy. Moreover, Apple has ceased to deliver a full version of their operating systems with their computers. Of course, CD's or DVD's are no longer the best solution. USB sticks are their natural successor, but Apple does not deliver any USB sticks with full software versions. I and other reasonably tech-savvy users can still make bootable USB sticks, but the point is that Apple as well as Microsoft and Adobe want us to be completely dependent on ties to the manufacturer and the permanent availability of a software service in order to run our computers. Any social, political or economic crisis or technical failure, discontinuation of the software service or possible legal intervention or failure to pay for the software subscription for whatever reason will make many people unable to write as much as a letter to grandma - unless the typewriter has a renaissance. Which is in fact not that unlikely, in view of the cloud computing schemes devised by software companies that see endless opportunities for profit if the damned standalone, independent computer can be eliminated. So yes, this is among other things an Open Source theme. The existence of free software gives us an alternative to the software restrictions that started with copy protection schemes, then followed by witch hunting after software pirates - and as we should remenber the definition of piracy was basically broad enough to encompass any user who wanted to back up his or her legally licensed software and be able to install it without further ties to the software company. Cloud computing is the software companies' brilliant attempt to restore the restrictive control that was taken from the proprietary companies when Linux and Open Source software emerged as an alternative for those who want user control and are not content if the machine merely "works." Needless to say, this Open Source argument is tangential to the discussion - but it is nevertheless relevant insofar as more or less planned obsolescence must be considered a conscious strategy in much of the software industry. It may be added that the aforementioned deplorable tendencies within the software industry may necessitate the introduction and spread of not only Open Source software, but also Open Source hardware. User-controlled computers require hardware that is capable of running user-controlled and copyable software that is installed and run from each individual local computer which may or may not be connected to networks. (There is of course rather more to the "Cloud" concept than the infamous form of "Cloud Computing" referred to in the above. To establish an internal Own Cloud within the company or in our home is - needless to say - a good and recommendable idea. Likewise, the "Cloud" is in reality what we use when we share data with others over the internet.)

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This isn't a proprietary vs open source thing. Both development models rely on developers to keep on securing systems against the threats that are out there.

The latter sentence is demonstrably and obviously true, the first is best described by a "yes and no" statement because the fundamental premises and thereby the possibilities are entirely different.

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Without those developers constantly and vigilantly patching out security vulnerabilities, every user of that software is at risk. openSUSE 13.2 no longer has anyone looking into it's packages. It is no longer providing security updates. Any user still using openSUSE 13.2 is at an increased risk of immeasurable security issues. Of course there is nothing I can do to compel someone to take my advice, but anyone who ignores it should do so with a fair understanding of the risks they are taking.

We are in basic agreement about the above. My point is that the answer is not as clear cut as some would like to argue. There are quite a few other considerations. Many people see no reason to update functional programs at the cost of reduced functionality and/or eventual unnecessary premature obsolescence of the computer. For computers that are not connected to the internet, there are no compelling reasons to upgrade as long as the computer is functional. -- Noise reduction is just another word for image destruction. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

stakanov

16:07

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

In data mercoledì 25 gennaio 2017 17:02:18, Per Inge Oestmoen ha scritto:

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For computers that are not connected to the internet, there are no compelling reasons to upgrade as long as the computer is functional. Forgive me but, how many are these? Hold in mind that I consider a laptop that is used on a public wireless well connected to the internet. So for me..there are not many machines that have this kind of characteristic.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

16:30

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

stakanov wrote:

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In data mercoledì 25 gennaio 2017 17:02:18, Per Inge Oestmoen ha scritto:

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For computers that are not connected to the internet, there are no compelling reasons to upgrade as long as the computer is functional.

Forgive me but, how many are these? Hold in mind that I consider a laptop that is used on a public wireless well connected to the internet. So for me..there are not many machines that have this kind of characteristic.

I guess it depends on whether a computer is directly or indirectly connected (thru a firewall for instance). None of our systems are directly connected. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-5.8°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

26 Jan 26 Jan

11:02

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

On 01/25/2017 11:30 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

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stakanov wrote:

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For computers that are not connected to the internet, there are no compelling reasons to upgrade as long as the computer is functional. Forgive me but, how many are these? Hold in mind that I consider a laptop that is used on a public wireless well connected to the internet. So for me..there are not many machines that have this kind of characteristic. I guess it depends on whether a computer is directly or indirectly connected (thru a firewall for instance). None of our systems are

In data mercoledì 25 gennaio 2017 17:02:18, Per Inge Oestmoen ha scritto: directly connected.

A firewall is only one part of security and only protects against attacks directly from the Internet. It does nothing against software flaws that may be compromised by malware. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

L A Walsh

05:04

New subject: [opensuse] Re: is it "senseless" to keep working with openSUSE 13.2 ?

Richard Brown wrote:

...

If it works, great, but people shouldn't expect it to. They should spend their efforts working with what we do have, do support, and do work to improve..not clinging to something which is now, by definition and clear public pronouncement, obsolete.

Sorta like Windows 7? And you know what people's reaction to MS's announcement that Win 7 -- which *is* still under maint., can't be secured? Do you really think people will judge 13.2 to be less secure than Windows 7? It really depends on your use case, doesn't it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Christopher Myers

24 Jan 24 Jan

16:44

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes (was: Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer)

...

...
...
Richard Brown 01/24/17 10:04 AM >>> While it could be seen to be disrespectful, sometimes ignorance or poor judgement needs to be challenged and it is clearly in the best interest of 13.2 users to cease using 13.2 as soon as possible if they wish their systems to remain secure on the internet or stable with new hardware and peripherals.

IMO, the biggest fault that openSuSE has is that it doesn't have an LTS version like other vendors do. I understand that if you want a long-term version, you're supposed to head to either SLES or SLED. But those platforms don't have the "end-user" feel of openSuSE, nor do they have all of the same packages or package versions available to them. (For example, SLES12 comes with PHP 5.5 released in 2014, and the latest is 7.0.14.) This is especially painful with regard to libraries, and means that some software simply cannot work on the enterprise SLE versions because they only support old versions of core libraries. I've uses openSuSE at work for almost 10 years now, where we have a three- to five-year computer replacement cycle. It's a royal pain in the rear to (re)configure all of my software, and a lot of it simply doesn't work on SLED. Believe me, I've tried. In the past I've gotten around this by using whatever openSuSE Evergreen release existed, but that's been eliminated. So, sadly, my next work laptop upgrade will probably have to be Debian, which I've been playing around with for a while at home. It's not as refined as openSuSE, but it means that I'll have to rebuild my laptop a third as many times during its lifetime... I know that we're supposed to upgrade regularly to stay "fresh" and "recent," but when you're trying to actually use your laptop for stuff, it's an incredible pain to have to stop, upgrade, then fix what broke (and hope that you can fix it...) I just don't have time for that -- my computers are supposed to work for me, not the other way around. I want to upgrade my laptop when I'm ready, not when someone tells me that I have to. openSuSE: https://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime A Leap Minor Release (42.1, 42.2, etc.) is expected to be released annually. Users are expected to upgrade to the latest minor release within 6 months of its availability, leading to a support life cycle of 18 months. Fedora: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Release_Life_Cycle The Fedora Project releases a new version of Fedora approximately every 6 months and provides updated packages (maintenance) to these releases for approximately 13 months [[18 months total]]. This allows users to "skip a release" while still being able to always have a system that is still receiving updates. Ubuntu: https://www.ubuntu.com/info/release-end-of-life Standard Ubuntu releases are supported for 9 months and Ubuntu LTS (long-term support) releases are supported for five years on both the desktop and the server. During that time, there will be security fixes and other critical updates. Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ Debian Long Term Support (LTS) is a project to extend the lifetime of all Debian stable releases to (at least) 5 years. Windows: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet 5 years for mainstream support, 10 years for extended support -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

17:02

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes (was: Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer)

Hi, We try such a thing for openSUSE Leap . The 42.x series is considered to be very easy upgradable between their minor versions, so the jump from 42.1 to 42.2 should be doable without any impact. Ciao, Marcus On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 10:44:10AM -0600, Christopher Myers wrote:

...

...
...
...
Richard Brown 01/24/17 10:04 AM >>> While it could be seen to be disrespectful, sometimes ignorance or poor judgement needs to be challenged and it is clearly in the best interest of 13.2 users to cease using 13.2 as soon as possible if they wish their systems to remain secure on the internet or stable with new hardware and peripherals.

IMO, the biggest fault that openSuSE has is that it doesn't have an LTS version like other vendors do. I understand that if you want a long-term version, you're supposed to head to either SLES or SLED. But those platforms don't have the "end-user" feel of openSuSE, nor do they have all of the same packages or package versions available to them. (For example, SLES12 comes with PHP 5.5 released in 2014, and the latest is 7.0.14.) This is especially painful with regard to libraries, and means that some software simply cannot work on the enterprise SLE versions because they only support old versions of core libraries.

I've uses openSuSE at work for almost 10 years now, where we have a three- to five-year computer replacement cycle. It's a royal pain in the rear to (re)configure all of my software, and a lot of it simply doesn't work on SLED. Believe me, I've tried. In the past I've gotten around this by using whatever openSuSE Evergreen release existed, but that's been eliminated. So, sadly, my next work laptop upgrade will probably have to be Debian, which I've been playing around with for a while at home. It's not as refined as openSuSE, but it means that I'll have to rebuild my laptop a third as many times during its lifetime...

I know that we're supposed to upgrade regularly to stay "fresh" and "recent," but when you're trying to actually use your laptop for stuff, it's an incredible pain to have to stop, upgrade, then fix what broke (and hope that you can fix it...) I just don't have time for that -- my computers are supposed to work for me, not the other way around. I want to upgrade my laptop when I'm ready, not when someone tells me that I have to.

openSuSE: https://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime A Leap Minor Release (42.1, 42.2, etc.) is expected to be released annually. Users are expected to upgrade to the latest minor release within 6 months of its availability, leading to a support life cycle of 18 months.

Fedora: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Release_Life_Cycle The Fedora Project releases a new version of Fedora approximately every 6 months and provides updated packages (maintenance) to these releases for approximately 13 months [[18 months total]]. This allows users to "skip a release" while still being able to always have a system that is still receiving updates.

Ubuntu: https://www.ubuntu.com/info/release-end-of-life Standard Ubuntu releases are supported for 9 months and Ubuntu LTS (long-term support) releases are supported for five years on both the desktop and the server. During that time, there will be security fixes and other critical updates.

Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ Debian Long Term Support (LTS) is a project to extend the lifetime of all Debian stable releases to (at least) 5 years.

Windows: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet 5 years for mainstream support, 10 years for extended support

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- Marcus Meissner,SUSE LINUX GmbH; Maxfeldstrasse 5; D-90409 Nuernberg; Zi. 3.1-33,+49-911-740 53-432,,serv=loki,mail=wotan,type=real -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen

19:15

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes

On 01/24/2017 09:02 AM, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

We try such a thing for openSUSE Leap . The 42.x series is considered to be very easy upgradable between their minor versions, so the jump from 42.1 to 42.2 should be doable without any impact.

Marcus, with all due respect, do you realize how lame that sounds? Every distro promises that!! Big deal !! It doesn't address Christopher's point that Opensuse does not have a rolling release option. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

stakanov

19:37

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes

In data martedì 24 gennaio 2017 11:15:44, John Andersen ha scritto:

...

It doesn't address Christopher's point that Opensuse does not have a rolling release option. ? It has. Tumbleweed is Opensuses rolling release option.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

21:42

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes

On 24 January 2017 at 20:37, stakanov wrote:

...

In data martedì 24 gennaio 2017 11:15:44, John Andersen ha scritto:

...
It doesn't address Christopher's point that Opensuse does not have a rolling release option. ? It has. Tumbleweed is Opensuses rolling release option.

Indeed we do It's on the front page of www.opensuse.org even, with the words "Get the newest Linux packages with our rolling release. " directly below it I sometimes wonder if guys like John are truly as mistaken or ignorant as they seem to be on these lists, or if it's just an ornate attempt at satirical commentary about current affairs? Is this a poor attempt at latching onto the 'alternative facts' meme? If not, I suggest anyone who doesn't know that openSUSE has a rolling release distribution review www.opensuse.org, news.opensuse.org, opensuse-announce, and probably everything we've posted on YouTube since about November 2014..that should get you caught up on where we are today :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

20:30

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes (was: Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer)

Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

Hi,

We try such a thing for openSUSE Leap . The 42.x series is considered to be very easy upgradable between their minor versions, so the jump from 42.1 to 42.2 should be doable without any impact.

I have tested that upgrade a few times, on desktops and on servers. I had one little hiccup on the server, but otherwise it works. I stress _little_ because the support I received was second to none, despite the hardware being fairly ancient. Chapeau! -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-4.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

stakanov

17:06

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes (was: Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer)

...

Windows: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/13853/windows-lifecycle-fact-sheet 5 years for mainstream support, 10 years for extended support

Well, at least this I take it for "abusive" criticism because it is a naked OS. Try to pay for all the software....and tell me how often you are forced to update withing your 5 to 10 years, while spending a lot of money and not getting a thing. The minor versions of Leap where foreseen to be like one bigger update, so you would consider 42 as one version. The fact that people have glitches is normal if you consider that: a) they changed a core aspect with 42.1 b) KDE is still (or should I say "again") in heavy development. c) people expect too much? Some things I agree could have been avoided but since I did the update (and reverted) I have to say if it would not have been for wanting for one generation to stay with KMail4 instead of shifting to KMail 5 / Kontakt, I would have stayed on the new version that, a part from that and a sddm bug was nice and stable for what I was able to see. Try to use Debian with recent hardware.... And Fedora is sometimes (if you read the bug report a PITA so......I would not take that for a reference either. In the context as of above: that was a brand new laptop with a known difficult graphics card that was so recent that it probably has still that nice plastic stink when you switch it on. And then you expect it to run on the conservative leap instead of TW...... Believe me I "AM" bitchy and demanding, but I feel like an angel sometimes, if I consider the general "standard" :@) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen

19:07

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes

On 01/24/2017 08:44 AM, Christopher Myers wrote:

...

I know that we're supposed to upgrade regularly to stay "fresh" and "recent," but when you're trying to actually use your laptop for stuff, it's an incredible pain to have to stop, upgrade, then fix what broke (and hope that you can fix it...) I just don't have time for that -- my computers are supposed to work for me, not the other way around. I want to upgrade my laptop when I'm ready, not when someone tells me that I have to.

Well said. On on of my desktop systems, I've switched to Manjaro, a rolling Archlinux release, with KDE/Plasma5 and I couldn't be happier. Amazing. On my laptop, I did a fresh install of Leap 42.2. Had I not been upgrading the laptop to an SSD anyway, I would not have upgraded from 13.2 to 42.2. But since a fresh install was in the card I decided to give 42.2 a try. It is sufficiently old computer, and my needs or it are sufficiently mundane that I ran into no major problems, and 42.2 is running fine. Had the fresh install not gone fine, it would now be running Manjaro. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Lew Wolfgang

19:31

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes

On 01/24/2017 11:07 AM, John Andersen wrote:

...

On on of my desktop systems, I've switched to Manjaro, a rolling Archlinux release, with KDE/Plasma5 and I couldn't be happier. Amazing.

On my laptop, I did a fresh install of Leap 42.2. Had I not been upgrading the laptop to an SSD anyway, I would not have upgraded from 13.2 to 42.2. But since a fresh install was in the card I decided to give 42.2 a try.

It is sufficiently old computer, and my needs or it are sufficiently mundane that I ran into no major problems, and 42.2 is running fine.

Had the fresh install not gone fine, it would now be running Manjaro.

Hi John, So why wouldn't you continue to use Manjaro? Also, what does Manjaro provide that Arch itself doesn't? Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen

22:55

New subject: [opensuse] -OT- Manjaro, was Support lifetimes

On 01/24/2017 11:31 AM, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

On 01/24/2017 11:07 AM, John Andersen wrote:

...
On on of my desktop systems, I've switched to Manjaro, a rolling Archlinux release, with KDE/Plasma5 and I couldn't be happier. Amazing.

On my laptop, I did a fresh install of Leap 42.2. Had I not been upgrading the laptop to an SSD anyway, I would not have upgraded from 13.2 to 42.2. But since a fresh install was in the card I decided to give 42.2 a try.

It is sufficiently old computer, and my needs or it are sufficiently mundane that I ran into no major problems, and 42.2 is running fine.

Had the fresh install not gone fine, it would now be running Manjaro.

Hi John,

So why wouldn't you continue to use Manjaro?

Also, what does Manjaro provide that Arch itself doesn't?

Regards, Lew

This particular laptop has always run Opensuse. Since the Pleistocene. Manjaro was Plan B for this laptop if 42.2 failed. It didn't. So it stays. I didn't want Manjaro on it because I have a paid Vmware License on this laptop that I rely on for development work, and Manjaro is not a supported VMWare host, but opensuse is. On my other machine.... I have a desktop that runs Manjaro, I like it, I continue to use it. Manjaro paints over the Arch warts, provides a nice clean installer and package manager and a helpful and responsive Development team (rather than Arch's arrogant, combative, and petulant bunch). Its a Rolling Release. Install once and roll along on any of three different branches, Stable (that's me), testing, unstable. It comes with a great tool to install and switch between kernels. Manjaro has two main Desktop Environments that they directly support XFCE and KDE/Plasma as well as several Community editions that they Host (Deepin, Mint, i3, Cinnamon, yadda, yadda). These are derivatives, but they get a lot of support and co-hosting from Manjaro. If you got some disk space, maybe throw VirtualBox on your Opensuse machine and play with it. www.manjaro.org -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

stakanov

25 Jan 25 Jan

01:10

New subject: [opensuse] -OT- Manjaro, was Support lifetimes

...

This particular laptop has always run Opensuse. Since the Pleistocene. Do you have taken some photos of the Pleistocene by chance? I know people at

In data martedì 24 gennaio 2017 14:55:52, John Andersen ha scritto: the university here that would freak out for it :-) (as it is OT I will be forgiven) :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Florian Gleixner

24 Jan 24 Jan

21:12

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes

On 24.01.2017 17:44, Christopher Myers wrote:

...

IMO, the biggest fault that openSuSE has is that it doesn't have an LTS version like other vendors do. I understand that if you want a long-term version, you're supposed to head to either SLES or SLED. But those platforms don't have the "end-user" feel of openSuSE, nor do they have all of the same packages or package versions available to them. (For example, SLES12 comes with PHP 5.5 released in 2014, and the latest is 7.0.14.) This is especially painful with regard to libraries, and means that some software simply cannot work on the enterprise SLE versions because they only support old versions of core libraries.

SLES12 comes with the "core" and "modules". The core versions change slowly and only on service pack updates. The module's versions may change faster. The "web and scripting module" got recently a update to php7 while php5 is still supported.

Felix Miata

25 Jan 25 Jan

08:04

New subject: [opensuse] Support lifetimes

Christopher Myers composed on 2017-01-24 10:44 (UTC-0600): ...

...

Ubuntu: https://www.ubuntu.com/info/release-end-of-life Standard Ubuntu releases are supported for 9 months and Ubuntu LTS (long-term support) releases are supported for five years on both the desktop and the server. During that time, there will be security fixes and other critical updates.

...

Debian: https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/ Debian Long Term Support (LTS) is a project to extend the lifetime of all Debian stable releases to (at least) 5 years. ...

You've counted the same OS multiply. *buntus are customized versions of Debian, so get the bulk of their LTS character from the work that goes into Debian. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen

24 Jan 24 Jan

18:39

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

On 01/24/2017 08:04 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

senseless - lacking common sense; wildly foolish.

openSUSE 13.2 is no longer receiving any security updates

I wonder if if it dawned on Richard just how prophetic it is having those two lines adjacent to each other? -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

21:52

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

On 24 January 2017 at 19:39, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 01/24/2017 08:04 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...
senseless - lacking common sense; wildly foolish.

openSUSE 13.2 is no longer receiving any security updates

I wonder if if it dawned on Richard just how prophetic it is having those two lines adjacent to each other?

openSUSE 13.2 was released with the support promise of "2 releases plus 2 months" At the time we had an 8 month release cycle. That meant that when it was released on 2014-11-04, the expected end of life was 18 months later, which would have been June 2016 With the elongation of release cycles as a result of the move to openSUSE Leap, this produced a strange situation. Does the project support openSUSE 13.2 for 18 months like originally intended? Or do we keep the original promise of "2 releases plus 2 months" despite the extra work required? The openSUSE Maintenance team chose the longer of the two, with the logic being that everyone should have expected 'at least 18 months' support, and people would be pleased to recieve 6 months longer support than originally implied. I think it's most unreasonable for users to expect continued support for a version of openSUSE longer than the period which we declared upon it's release. That period has most certainly ended now, no matter which way you interpret our original announcements regarding the support lifecycle of openSUSE 13.2. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

22:05

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

On 2017-01-24 22:52, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 24 January 2017 at 19:39, John Andersen wrote:

...
On 01/24/2017 08:04 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...
senseless - lacking common sense; wildly foolish.

openSUSE 13.2 is no longer receiving any security updates

I wonder if if it dawned on Richard just how prophetic it is having those two lines adjacent to each other?

openSUSE 13.2 was released with the support promise of "2 releases plus 2 months"

At the time we had an 8 month release cycle.

That meant that when it was released on 2014-11-04, the expected end of life was 18 months later, which would have been June 2016

With the elongation of release cycles as a result of the move to openSUSE Leap, this produced a strange situation. Does the project support openSUSE 13.2 for 18 months like originally intended? Or do we keep the original promise of "2 releases plus 2 months" despite the extra work required? The openSUSE Maintenance team chose the longer of the two, with the logic being that everyone should have expected 'at least 18 months' support, and people would be pleased to recieve 6 months longer support than originally implied.

I think it's most unreasonable for users to expect continued support for a version of openSUSE longer than the period which we declared upon it's release. That period has most certainly ended now, no matter which way you interpret our original announcements regarding the support lifecycle of openSUSE 13.2.

Yes, this is true. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

nicholas

16:33

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 10:40:27 CET Mark Hounschell wrote:

...

I'm not here for help on this. There is nothing "senseless" about staying on 13.2 for the time being. If I need help with a _basic_ install of Leap on hardware that works on 13.2, I will stay with 13.2. The install was just an exercise to see where it is. Can I use this yet sort of thing. I'll try 42.3 when it arrives, but until then I'll be sticking with 13.2.

Regards Mark

This post was started by a newcomer on cutting edge hardware looking for advice. The recommendation of installing EOL 13.2 using a vintage kernel is sensless. Im not entirly sure what take away from your assement of 42.2 given that you obviously made no serious effort in installing it ; nor in finding solutions to trivial issues, including understanding your own keyboard. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

19:51

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

On 01/24/2017 11:33 AM, nicholas wrote:

...

This post was started by a newcomer on cutting edge hardware looking for advice. The recommendation of installing EOL 13.2 using a vintage kernel is sensless.

That's an interesting wording. As you've worded it, I have to agree. But, as I keep pointing out, there's a lot of "yes it used to be but we changed all that" going on. Lets leave aside, for the moment the issue that we're not going to see any more work on the core repositories. I'm assuming, regardless, that after installing anything, be it 13.2, 42.1 or 42.2, the first thing you do is 'update' from the core repositories. So, after doing so, you're not running the vintage kernel of the distribution. Regular readers will recall that I make use of a number of other repositories, non-core ones, one of which is Kernel Stable. So my 13.2 system is actually running 4.9.5-1. That's a long way from the 32.something on the distribution DVD. No way can you call that 'vintage'. There's a similar argument to be made for other heavily used appreciations, Mozilla, LibreOffice and in my case the photo applications. Now John is going to say that people are going to stop producing updates in those for 13.2 Perhaps. So far I've only had the "distribution" repositories stop/discontinue. Another 30-some Are happily going along. But to get back to that original quotation. I'm also running 'antique' hardware, an old HP Optiplex 755. Santa was not generous in the computer area this year. Could the Optiplex run 42.1? I'm sure it could, but other people posting to this thread have spoken of the disruption associated with major upgrades such as this would be. If I had new hardware the effort would be worth while, as nicolas points out, installing 13.2 on blinding new hardware is quite another matter! I have no incentive to upgrade and a lot of disincentive to do so. I gather that I'm not alone in this situation. As I say, Context is Everything -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

stakanov

20:18

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

I see the point of the project that there is no manpower to maintain three distributions. So, in order to run 13.2 you would have to have an "Evergreen team" that gives the updates to the system. And, you have to admit, you will have a totally heterogeneous userbase. You update Mozilla, somebody else for some constraints does not. You use the Kernel from Kernel stable, somebody else needs for constraints the original one. No you two have a problem with the system ... and expect that you will find the people and the energy to stay after such a wide variation of installations (and therefore also of error sources?). Because once you will give such updates people will expect that all(!) security problems will be timely fixed, for currently 4 distributions. I do not see this as very realistic to tell the truth. Not even from the users point of view, there was a news today that still a lot of rented server are unpatched for heardbleed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

25 Jan 25 Jan

07:55

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

Anton Aylward composed on 2017-01-24 14:51 (UTC-0500):

...

I'm also running 'antique' hardware, an old HP Optiplex 755. Santa was not generous in the computer area this year. Could the Optiplex run 42.1?

I have 6 Optiplexes. All were made by Dell (not HP), models 620 (X3, my oldest machines with 64 bit Intel CPUs, and too old for modesetting Xorg driver support), 745, 760 and 780. All run 42.1 and either KDE3 or TDE, and without any hiccups that I can recall. All of the 6 also have 13.1. 5 of the 6 also have 42.2. 4 of the 6 also have 13.2. The 760 and 780 also have DisplayPorts, back panel eSATA ports, and even Windows 10. :-p -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

24 Jan 24 Jan

20:45

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

nicholas wrote:

...

On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 10:40:27 CET Mark Hounschell wrote:

...
I'm not here for help on this. There is nothing "senseless" about staying on 13.2 for the time being. If I need help with a _basic_ install of Leap on hardware that works on 13.2, I will stay with 13.2. The install was just an exercise to see where it is. Can I use this yet sort of thing. I'll try 42.3 when it arrives, but until then I'll be sticking with 13.2.

Regards Mark

This post was started by a newcomer on cutting edge hardware looking for advice. The recommendation of installing EOL 13.2 using a vintage kernel is sensless.

1. Terry Eck, the OP, is not a newcomer. He's been around openSUSE for at least ten years, 2. installing 13.2 does not mean sticking to a "vintage" kernel. 3. Even if you do, as long as your hardware is supported, so what? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-4.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

nicholas

21:57

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

...

nicholas wrote:

...
On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 10:40:27 CET Mark Hounschell wrote:

...
I'm not here for help on this. There is nothing "senseless" about staying on 13.2 for the time being. If I need help with a _basic_ install of Leap on hardware that works on 13.2, I will stay with 13.2. The install was just an exercise to see where it is. Can I use this yet sort of thing. I'll try 42.3 when it arrives, but until then I'll be sticking with 13.2.

Regards Mark

This post was started by a newcomer on cutting edge hardware looking for advice. The recommendation of installing EOL 13.2 using a vintage kernel is sensless.

1. Terry Eck, the OP, is not a newcomer. He's been around openSUSE for at least ten years, ok not a newcomer but judging from the posts not an eager hacker (no disrespect). 2. installing 13.2 does not mean sticking to a "vintage" kernel.

3. Even if you do, as long as your hardware is supported, so what? latest stuff, security, ease of installation, support, the ability to log bugs

On Tuesday, 24 January 2017 21:45:12 CET Per Jessen wrote: that wont be rejected for EOL. And like you said 'if the hardware is supported' Im quite certain the OP would have far more problems to solve with 13.2 than 42.2. people digging there heels in over how thier own 'personal use case' contradits good 'general' advice, it is not an argument that can be won by either side. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:41

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

On 2017-01-24 16:40, Mark Hounschell wrote:

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On 01/24/2017 10:13 AM, stakanov wrote:

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Did you read the release note? No

Well, you should, because the known problems are listed there.

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You can get virtual consoles any time, nothing changed from 13.2-42.1-42.2. My mistake here. I forgot the F-Lock key on this keyboard.

Ok, one less :-)

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When you logged in..... what desktop did you set to use? Default (Plasma 5) Did you maintain the home? Yes but I login as root or user with same results. Did you try to set up a new empty user to see if the problems were user dependent (local settings) or if this is really a problem with the graphics driver?

Just the root account.

You should try a new user account, and also another desktop.

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Come on. Install problems? Dead machine after install because you run into quirks with proprietary driver or because you do an update over two generations (jumping right away 42.1). Yeap that can of course happen. Black screen with a mouse coursor indicates more of a graphics problem (probably plasma crashed). If you wait long enough it should come back all alone (is the case since 42.1 that plasma once crashed generally autostarts.

Standard install. No proprietary drivers.

Plasma may need the proprietary driver.

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I'm not here for help on this. There is nothing "senseless" about staying on 13.2 for the time being. If I need help with a _basic_ install of Leap on hardware that works on 13.2, I will stay with 13.2. The install was just an exercise to see where it is. Can I use this yet sort of thing. I'll try 42.3 when it arrives, but until then I'll be sticking with 13.2.

Well, if you want 42.3 to work, you have to install 42.2 and report and follow each issue on bugzilla. Else, those problems are not known and nobody will work on them. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Per Jessen

22:01

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-01-24 16:40, Mark Hounschell wrote:

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On 01/24/2017 10:13 AM, stakanov wrote:

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Did you read the release note? No

Well, you should, because the known problems are listed there.

Quite often only after the fact. The release notes are some times only a cop out for our inadequate QA. Besides, how often do you study the release notes before you install the first time? It's been a veryyyy long time since anyone closed one of my bugreports with "See the release notes". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-4.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

22:14

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

On 2017-01-24 23:01, Per Jessen wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-01-24 16:40, Mark Hounschell wrote:

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On 01/24/2017 10:13 AM, stakanov wrote:

...
...
Did you read the release note? No

Well, you should, because the known problems are listed there.

Quite often only after the fact. The release notes are some times only a cop out for our inadequate QA. Besides, how often do you study the release notes before you install the first time? It's been a veryyyy long time since anyone closed one of my bugreports with "See the release notes".

Well, yes, after the fact :-) Still... I can say that I found one issue, reported in bugzilla, then got into the release notes. Obviously the QA tests did not find the issue in time for the GM. Richard, if you can: the installation crashes if one attempts to create partitions with labels and mount using labels. Put that in the the QA tests for the next time. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Per Jessen

22:55

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Richard, if you can: the installation crashes if one attempts to create partitions with labels and mount using labels. Put that in the the QA tests for the next time.

The testcase will be tied directly to the bugreport. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-5.0°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23:32

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

On 2017-01-24 23:55, Per Jessen wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Richard, if you can: the installation crashes if one attempts to create partitions with labels and mount using labels. Put that in the the QA tests for the next time.

The testcase will be tied directly to the bugreport.

It is simply trying to install creating partition with labels, and changing the default to mount by label. Crash. [Bug 1009493] New: Leap 42.2 RC2 says internal ruby error on install But the thing is that the automated tests obviously do not try to install that way, so did not detect the problem in time. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Per Jessen

25 Jan 25 Jan

10:32

New subject: [opensuse] Most stable openSUSE version for 64bit computer

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2017-01-24 23:55, Per Jessen wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Richard, if you can: the installation crashes if one attempts to create partitions with labels and mount using labels. Put that in the the QA tests for the next time.

The testcase will be tied directly to the bugreport.

It is simply trying to install creating partition with labels, and changing the default to mount by label. Crash.

[Bug 1009493] New: Leap 42.2 RC2 says internal ruby error on install

But the thing is that the automated tests obviously do not try to install that way, so did not detect the problem in time.

Right - that's why I'm saying your bugreport ought to cause the creation of a testcase, so that it can be tested next time. I did once look into how to create test cases for our automatic testing. ISTR it looking fairly complex and time-consuming, but I may not have looked closely enough. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-5.2°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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participants (19)

Andrei Borzenkov
Anton Aylward
Carlos E. R.
Christopher Myers
Felix Miata
Florian Gleixner
James Knott
John Andersen
L A Walsh
Lew Wolfgang
Marcus Meissner
Mark Hounschell
michael norman
nicholas
Per Inge Oestmoen
Per Jessen
Richard Brown
Roger Oberholtzer
stakanov