Maybe, instead of having a personal version and professional version, just have a standard version (profession version) with all the manuals and discs and a guru version which only have discs without manuals?

Sounds GREAT! As several people agreed when SuSE first announced the package split (I loved the way they were one of the few that just had one package), the NEW users need the 90 days support, 4 manuals, etc. Really, the Personal is better for Pro users (save the fact that it doesn't have all the software) than the Pro edition. It just doesn't make sense, I'm glad you agree! ;-) SUGGESTION to SuSE: Why not poll your loyal users about things like what the Pro and Personal editions should have, and if a "Guru" edition is viable? Remember, community is what makes Linux, and I can't think of anything more in the spirit of open source than keeping up with what your users want in their Linux distro... Pricing suggestion: PowerPack (a.k.a. Guru edition, 6-CD's and DVD, in-Jewel case 5 or 6 page startup guide and PDF's of manual): $29 -Basically the same as downloading it off the 'net, but added convience of DVD, and pre-burnt CD's. PowerPack also replaces Professional Upgrade Edition. Personal (re-designed with 90-days support, and pro-edition manuals - but same 3-CD's): $39 MSRP Professional (Now with personal edition manuals, 60-days support - but same 6-CD's and DVD): $59 MSRP Professional Library (All the books that use to go in the Pro edition, plus maybe a few other good Linux books, plus 90-days support, plus Pro-Edition CD's) $89 To keeps things simple, IMO, I'd offer the PowerPack, Personal, and Professional at stores (stores probably wouldn't mind yet another edition, since the PowerPack would be small). Since I doubt there would be much demand for Pro-Library, offer it on the 'net. This layout would keep everyone happy it seems to me. Any comments? -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" ===================== -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

The main point is that the price difference between the upgrade/guru version should be large enough to make it worth anyone's while. Obviously, SuSE fears people just buying that version instead of the other one. The easy solution is to make it a subscription service contingent on your having bought, in the first instance, the professional edition/SuSE 6.4 or whatever. Your ability to buy the upgrade CD's could be tied to your registration number. That seems like a reasonable compromise to me. The professional edition still has added value in the form of the manuals, which a lot of people, myself included, appreciate. SuSE has its considerations, obviously. Among them must be the high cost of producing those books -- not only the paper, but the people, authors and translators, etc. Those are pricy things to make. So I think it's highly unlikely you'd get the Personal edition having more books and costing less than the Pro edition. That's just not realistic. The handbook is very expensive to make, and _pace_ one commenter, many people find it useful. Why should SuSE essentially give it away? I agree with the person who commented on the cheapness of the paper sleeve for the CD's. You can easily get a jewel box with an accordion-thingy inside to fit 6 cd's. And scratches *do* sometimes affect CD-readability. -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

So, as I have it, here are the suggestions for SuSE: Personal Edition: for the new guys just starting in Linux Professional Edition: for the power users Upgrade: for us loyal consumers of SuSE over the years Guru: Professional - (documentation + support) I think I would pay for a guru edition. Come to think of it, I really

Pretty much so, only, IMO, the Upgrade should be elimated, since the Pro edition's price would be lowered (since it would have less manuals), and Guru would be slightly cheaper than 6.4 (since it doesn't have manuals or support). My thoughts would create 4 versions: -Guru: Bare bowns, really cheap ~$25 -Pro: 6.4-like version ~$39 (MSRP $49, like it use to be) -Linux Starter Kit (Personal Edition): 7.0-Pro manuals and support, with 7.0-Personal-like 3-CD package (~$59) -Professional Library: One with all the Pro stuff, plus all the manuals and support in the Linux Starter Kit (~$89) Optionally, there could be a Professional Library Upgrade: -Professional Library Upgrade: Manual that overviews changed from last Pro-library version, 6-CD's, plus 90-days support (~$59) Maybe the Pro-Library and Pro-Library Upgrade could be mail-order only, thus keeping it simple for stores, while making SuSE perfect for nearly any requirements. Basically, what I've heard from SuSE, is that the price increase was due to adding extra support and better manuals. This is why I suggested the Guru edition, which would take out those "price raising" features - creating an affordable version for those of us who would like _every_single_version_. IMO, SuSE benefits on this, because once devel costs are paid off, the Guru has very little production cost, and is nearly pure profit. Better yet, I think more of us would buy every version, creating more sales of a version with little cost to produce! C'mon SuSE, can't we hear your opinions? -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" ===================== -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

I think you are all missing out something very important. (Apart from the fact that SuSE needs to make enuff money to pay it's staff!) If the price is too cheap, then the retailers will simply not stock it. They expect ot make a certain amount of money on each unit of shelf they stock. If the price is too cheap, then the retailers can't make their margin so they go and look for a more expensive product to fill up their shelf space. But that isn't all. Production companies deal with distributors not retailers, I don't know what SuSE's deal with its distributors is, but based on my experience in the computer boxed games industry a few years back, I would guess the distributors are getting it at about 50% and selling it on to retailers at 67% of retail price. This has two implications. First SuSE are only getting half the money we pay over for the distribution, and second if there isn't enuff profit between the 50% the distributors pay for it and the 67% they sell it on for, or they won't take it. I don't work for SuSE, so I've no idea what the actual figures are but I suspect that the ones I've given are in the correct ball park. Pricing a product is a lot more complex than it appears on the surface... Alan Lenton -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

Hi, On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, matthew johnson wrote:

I personally think they have done a pretty good job thus far. I loved that lapel pin! :-)

[SNIP] Thanks for your nice comments :)

PS I hope SuSE is glad that people are thinking up product ideas for free! Open Source production? :-)

Yes, a lot of good ideas have been raised here. I try to forward what I consider worth thinking about, but of course I cannot guarantee any success or make any final decisions. You might also want to consider to send your suggestions to feedback@suse.de, our team will forward your comments to the people responsible. Bye, LenZ -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lenz Grimmer SuSE GmbH mailto:grimmer@suse.de Schanzaeckerstr. 10 http://www.suse.de/~grimmer/ 90443 Nuernberg, Germany Piano tuners do it twice a year. -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

Tim, That is a good point. Perhaps if nothing else, what about a "FOR EXPERIENCED LINUX USERS ONLY, NO TECH SUPPORT OR MANUALS INCLUDED" sticker in orange print on the front of it? That ought to scare off all the "Windows Experts" and plain newbies looking for a good deal, right? -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================

-----Original Message----- From: Tim Duggan [mailto:tduggan@dekaresearch.com] Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 9:08 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: RE: [SLE] Attention SuSE'ers: New Distro Suggestions laid out,waddaya think? (was: [SLE] SuSE Needs a "Guru Edition"!)

Hi,

On 10/18/00 at 8:06 PM Timothy R. Butler wrote:

...

-Guru: Bare bowns, really cheap ~$25 -Pro: 6.4-like version ~$39 (MSRP $49, like it use to be) -Linux Starter Kit (Personal Edition): 7.0-Pro manuals and support, with 7.0-Personal-like 3-CD package (~$59) -Professional Library: One with all the Pro stuff, plus all the manuals and support in the Linux Starter Kit (~$89)

The only problem I see is someone new to Linux or SuSE buying the Guru edition to try it out because they don't want to "waste" the extra money if they don't like it. That is a large potential to turn off a lot of people who only thought they would save themselves a few bucks. Most people (around here anyway) look at the price first, contents second and then (if you are lucky) they will concern themselves with the fine print and find out there is no support. They will see the lower price and more software and might actually prefer the fact that it comes in a smaller, lighter box. How many games are on the shelf in a jeweled CD case, no box, no manual, just a plastic wrapper but _with_ support (ok sometimes they put them in a big empty box)? I think it might be best to make the Guru ed. only available by mail order, and price the Pro and Personal the same putting more manuals in the Personal and more software in the Pro. This would make it more clear to newbies and not give them an overwhelming reason to buy the wrong package.

Perhaps a little sticker that says "Users 3? years and up" ;-)

Tim P.S. I think Tux in diapers would be a bit much, but then again cute sells.

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At 20.50 16/10/00 -0500, Timothy R. Butler wrote:

...

Maybe, instead of having a personal version and professional version, just have a standard version (profession version) with all the manuals and discs and a guru version which only have discs without manuals?

Sounds GREAT! As several people agreed when SuSE first announced the package split (I loved the way they were one of the few that just had one package), the NEW users need the 90 days support, 4 manuals, etc. Really, the Personal is better for Pro users (save the fact that it doesn't have all the software) than the Pro edition. It just doesn't make sense, I'm glad you agree! ;-)

(just suggestions) Good for me. Standard Edition (manuals + disks) Guru Edition (only disks maybe with electronic version of manuals and power tools). But just two version plz not more than two. For a more clear distribution machanism (not all reseller give to clients all the range of choice (eg: 10 Standard edition, 1 Pro, half Guru of an older release, on the shelf. Finally you'll buy ever standard edition =)). Publishing just the really consolidated milestones release, without furious vortex. Make you the price. Ftp: just a free well-functioning base tree to remain in the line of freedom and secure method of ditribution in countries with lack of resellers. No restricted lists or payment ftp service, please. Best regards, Fabrizio. -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:44:17 -0500 From: Corvin Russell Message-ID: <20001119234417.A2418@raven.unknowing.org> Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. But isn't the relevant calculation not whether SuSE makes more or less money from a given individual, but whether they make more or less from the total client base? It may be true that they make less money from you with a given pricing scheme, but do they make less money from everyone? If not, you must admit there would be little argument for a different pricing scheme. It seems to me we don't have this information. Hopefully SuSE does. I admit that SuSE's pricing of the upgrade version seems a little odd. But it may be efficient. I don't have the data to judge that. What you are imagining is something like FreeBSD. 4 CD's, $25 on a subscription basis from bsdi. There is a little booklet in the jewel-box and manuals are sold separately (but are not very up to date). There is also an option to buy a bundle which is cheaper than any of its components (now they also have a desktop bundle, which includes FreeBSD, The Complete FreeBSD, Applixware, and Partition Magic. It costs $130). <p><p><p> -- Corvin Russell

Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:03:51 -0800 From: Ben Rosenberg Message-ID: <20001119220351.C6681@suse.com> Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. Tim, I am not sure where you get the "every three or four months" from. If you look at the last year or so...6.4 came out April 11th in the states and about 3 weeks earlier in Europe..then comes 7.0 in September..and I doubt you are going to see a release from SuSE for another 2-3 months at least..so if you really look at it..it's about 6-8 months now between release cycles..which is why there are updates on the ftp site...so accept for the pay series .. if you bought the personal edition and just pulled the rest down with your broadband connect you are doing pretty well. Why would you need a "guru" edition with 6 CD's of software if you have a fast pipe to the net? One would only need a single cd of the base system and then do all the installing of other software from downloads. I would like a greater thought out arguement on the subject. I just don't get it so far. I am not trying to be a smartass or anything. Don't get me wrong, it's just that your logic is flawed. If I hear good ideas I am not opposed to saying something to the people I work with or to others within the company..let me know your thoughts. Regards, * Timothy R. Butler (tbutler@uninetsolutions.com) [001119 21:25]: -**- -**- Exactly! I just want a distribution I can justify buying every three or four -**-months when a new version comes out. I don't want to spend the same amount as a -**-full copy of Windows Millenium Edition ($189) each year in Linux updates. However, -**-$25 every four months wouldn't seem all that bad. And the added value of a DVD -**-would definately create demand... -**- -- Benjamin Rosenberg The Linux Experts :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: SuSE Inc. Tel: +1-510-628-3380 ext:5086 580 Second St Suite 210 Fax: +1-510-835-3381 Suite 210 mailto:brosenb@suse.com Oakland CA 94607 U.S.A http://www.suse.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking. --LBJ "My opinions are not a reflection of the opinions of SuSE Inc."

Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:54:58 -0800 From: Ben Rosenberg Message-ID: <20001119225458.A8158@suse.com> Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. Corvin, I wasn't suggesting you were. It's cool. I was just wanting some more thought out reasons why there should be a guru edition for people with broadband connections that included 6 CD's. After all the point was that they had broadband and could download most everything after the base system is installed. I wouldn't worry about the freeBSD thing. I happen to know a lot of developers that work on it as well..and those guys work really hard as well. It think we should all think of OSS as one big family..people take different roads to get through life...for us it's SuSE :) Kind Regards, * Corvin Russell (corvinr@sympatico.ca) [001119 22:39]: -**-BTW, I did not mean to suggest that FreeBSD and SuSE can be so easily -**-compared. SuSE is a business after all, and lots of people work -**-there. FreeBSD is an excellent OS, and the ports system is great, but -**-I also know how hard SuSE packagers work to make a consistent, reliable -**-package. SuSE's printed documentation is usually quite up to date. -**- -**-If such pricing is important, FreeBSD and Slackware are priced on -**-subscription at bsdi.com. -- Benjamin Rosenberg The Linux Experts :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: SuSE Inc. Tel: +1-510-628-3380 ext:5086 580 Second St Suite 210 Fax: +1-510-835-3381 Suite 210 mailto:brosenb@suse.com Oakland CA 94607 U.S.A http://www.suse.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking. --LBJ "My opinions are not a reflection of the opinions of SuSE Inc."

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:51:26 -0800 From: Ben Rosenberg Message-ID: <20001121125126.A29774@suse.com> Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. Cliff, I never said you were "poorer" :/ <p>* Cliff Sarginson (cliff@raggedclown.net) [001121 05:08]: -**-Some of us do not have broad band or even ISDN connections. -**-We are poorer in Europe ... lol -**- -**-Cliff -**-On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 10:54:58PM -0800, Ben Rosenberg wrote: -**-> Corvin, -**-> -**-> I wasn't suggesting you were. It's cool. I was just wanting some -**-> more thought out reasons why there should be a guru edition for -**-> people with broadband connections that included 6 CD's. After all -**-> the point was that they had broadband and could download most -**-> everything after the base system is installed. I wouldn't worry -**-> about the freeBSD thing. I happen to know a lot of developers that -**-> work on it as well..and those guys work really hard as well. It -**-> think we should all think of OSS as one big family..people take -**-> different roads to get through life...for us it's SuSE :) -**-> -**-> Kind Regards, -**-> -**-> * Corvin Russell (corvinr@sympatico.ca) [001119 22:39]: -**-> -**-BTW, I did not mean to suggest that FreeBSD and SuSE can be so easily -**-> -**-compared. SuSE is a business after all, and lots of people work -**-> -**-there. FreeBSD is an excellent OS, and the ports system is great, but -**-> -**-I also know how hard SuSE packagers work to make a consistent, reliable -**-> -**-package. SuSE's printed documentation is usually quite up to date. -**-> -**- -**-> -**-If such pricing is important, FreeBSD and Slackware are priced on -**-> -**-subscription at bsdi.com. -**-> -- -**-> -**-> Benjamin Rosenberg The Linux Experts -**-> -**-> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -**-> SuSE Inc. Tel: +1-510-628-3380 ext:5086 -**-> 580 Second St Suite 210 Fax: +1-510-835-3381 -**-> Suite 210 mailto:brosenb@suse.com -**-> Oakland CA 94607 U.S.A http://www.suse.com -**-> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -**-> If two men agree on everything, you may be sure -**-> that only one of them is doing the thinking. --LBJ -**-> -**-> "My opinions are not a reflection of the opinions of SuSE Inc." -**-> -**-> -- -**-> To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com -**-> For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com -**-> Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq -**- -**--- -**-To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com -**-For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com -**-Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq -**- -- Benjamin Rosenberg The Linux Experts :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: SuSE Inc. Tel: +1-510-628-3380 ext:5086 580 Second St Suite 210 Fax: +1-510-835-3381 Suite 210 mailto:brosenb@suse.com Oakland CA 94607 U.S.A http://www.suse.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking. --LBJ "My opinions are not a reflection of the opinions of SuSE Inc."

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:49:47 +0100 From: Cliff Sarginson Message-ID: <20001121124947.F1477@buffy.local> Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. I am a bit puzzled by all this. I posted before about Suse's strange distributions in Holland. However for 99 Dutch Gulders (which I quickly estimate is about $50 US), I got the lot, minus the DVD. The English Professional version I think is about 50% more expensive, but it makes no sense to buy it even if you dont speak Dutch (unless you really need the English version of Staroffice). For this you also get an excellent book (albeit rather quaintly translated from German in parts), the book alone would cost around 80 guldens I would guess if sold seperately. This is much cheaper than other distributions, even the minimalist Slackware distro cost's more as a boxed set. There are no perfect distro's. Suse is a good attempt at a reasonable price. Their so-called 60 day support however is a joke, maybe they could abandon it and knock something off the price. I find all this talk of Guru's slightly nauseating. Since I have worked with Unix systems most of my professional life ( > 20 years ) maybe I am a Guru ..lol. I wouldn't presume to say so though. I think people who want distribution changes should email info@suse.com and not flaunt their Guru'ness so loudly in this list. We don't all have broadband or cable modems, just cheap little dial-up modems twinkling at us while trying to get a connection :) L&K Cliff <p><p>On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 05:15:15PM -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote:

Ben, Here are my three main reason for such a request:

1.) The added convenience of the DVD-ROM included with the 6 CD's. 2.) At one point a few months ago, people commented about buying it rather than downloading SuSE to support the company. This would allow users to support SuSE without paying for all the trimmings. 3.) The convenience of having it ready to go. For $25 or so dollars, you don't have to bother fooling with disk images, burning CD's, etc. (the reason I mention burning CD's, is that, of course, you would want a copy of the system incase you were installing it for a friend, or perhaps your broadband connection was down) 4.) A small/mid-sized business, may want to avoid having to burn CD's, but may still want a large number of copies of the CD's/DVD's. So they could go buy one or two professional sets, and then buy a dozen Guru Editions (etc). However, they probably wouldn't buy a dozen Pro Edition CD's (due to cost), so it wouldn't really be like SuSE competing with it's self. Other considerations (this would be extra work on SuSE's part, but might be worth considering), would be too then offer ala carte copies of the manuals - however this wouldn't really be necessary. SuSE could then offer some kind of Guru subscription, and allow people to buy manuals every few releases.

Most of all though, as I said, users would get the DVD they probably don't have the hardware to burn themselves, and SuSE gets at least something for all of your efforts.

I don't know about most SuSE customers, but I would definitely be interested in such an edition. I hope I made a little more sense in this description.

Best, Tim

----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================

...

-----Original Message----- From: Ben Rosenberg [mailto:brosenb@suse.com] Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 12:04 AM To: SuSE Linux English Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH.

Tim,

I am not sure where you get the "every three or four months" from. If you look at the last year or so...6.4 came out April 11th in the states and about 3 weeks earlier in Europe..then comes 7.0 in September..and I doubt you are going to see a release from SuSE for another 2-3 months at least..so if you really look at it..it's about 6-8 months now between release cycles..which is why there are updates on the ftp site...so accept for the pay series .. if you bought the personal edition and just pulled the rest down with your broadband connect you are doing pretty well. Why would you need a "guru" edition with 6 CD's of software if you have a fast pipe to the net? One would only need a single cd of the base system and then do all the installing of other software from downloads. I would like a greater thought out arguement on the subject. I just don't get it so far. I am not trying to be a smartass or anything. Don't get me wrong, it's just that your logic is flawed. If I hear good ideas I am not opposed to saying something to the people I work with or to others within the company..let me know your thoughts.

Regards,

* Timothy R. Butler (tbutler@uninetsolutions.com) [001119 21:25]: -**- -**- Exactly! I just want a distribution I can justify buying every three or four -**-months when a new version comes out. I don't want to spend the same amount as a -**-full copy of Windows Millenium Edition ($189) each year in Linux updates. However, -**-$25 every four months wouldn't seem all that bad. And the added value of a DVD -**-would definately create demand... -**- --

Benjamin Rosenberg The Linux Experts

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: SuSE Inc. Tel: +1-510-628-3380 ext:5086 580 Second St Suite 210 Fax: +1-510-835-3381 Suite 210 mailto:brosenb@suse.com Oakland CA 94607 U.S.A http://www.suse.com :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: If two men agree on everything, you may be sure that only one of them is doing the thinking. --LBJ

"My opinions are not a reflection of the opinions of SuSE Inc."

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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:59:32 -0800 (PST) From: Greg Thomas Message-ID: Subject: RE: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Timothy R. Butler wrote:

...

This is much cheaper than other distributions, even the minimalist Slackware distro cost's more as a boxed set.

Here in the states, I've seen Slack go for about $40-$50 _less_ than SuSE. FreeBSD's 10 CD set with manuals even goes for $20 less than SuSE.

Where'd you see that? Cuz I'd like to get me some at that price. Greg

From: "Timothy R. Butler" Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:34:32 -0600 Message-ID: <000001c054f5$e96365a0$0101a8c0@g4958> Subject: RE: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. Greg, Last I saw, I believe BestBuy had a few copies left going at that price (IIRC). I was pretty shocked, and thought about picking it up, but I rather like Linux - so I skipped it. It's the FreeBSD PowerPack (MSRP $99). -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" ===================== <p><p>> -----Original Message-----

From: Greg Thomas [mailto:ethant@pacificnet.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 12:00 AM To: Timothy R. Butler Cc: SuSE Mailing List Subject: RE: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH.

On Tue, 21 Nov 2000, Timothy R. Butler wrote:

...

...

This is much cheaper than other distributions, even the minimalist Slackware distro cost's more as a boxed set.

Here in the states, I've seen Slack go for about $40-$50 _less_ than SuSE. FreeBSD's 10 CD set with manuals even goes for $20 less than SuSE.

Where'd you see that? Cuz I'd like to get me some at that price.

Greg

From: "Timothy R. Butler" Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:23:16 -0600 Message-ID: <001201c054fc$b8344920$0101a8c0@g4958> Subject: RE: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. Actually it's been that price for months, so they weren't trying to dump it. What I'm assuming, is that BSDi provided more room between wholesale and retail pricing, thus allowing a big price drop. -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" ===================== <p><p>> -----Original Message-----

From: Corvin Russell [mailto:corvinr@sympatico.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 8:48 PM To: Timothy R. Butler; suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH.

They're dumping because the new FreeBSD release came out a couple of days ago. If you have an extra box, I stronly encourage you to give FreeBSD a whirl. The documentation in the FreeBSD handbook and The Complete FreeBSD is excellent, and the freeBSD-questions mailing list is very helpful.

C

On Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 08:34:32PM -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote:

...

Last I saw, I believe BestBuy had a few copies left going at that price (IIRC). I was pretty shocked, and thought about picking it up, but I rather like Linux - so I skipped it. It's the FreeBSD PowerPack (MSRP $99).

-- Corvin Russell

Message-ID: <3A1E8C77.E50B238D@halenet.com.au> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 01:42:47 +1000 From: Don Hansford Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. Corvin Russell wrote:

They're dumping because the new FreeBSD release came out a couple of days ago. If you have an extra box, I stronly encourage you to give FreeBSD a whirl. The documentation in the FreeBSD handbook and The Complete FreeBSD is excellent, and the freeBSD-questions mailing list is very helpful.

C

And don't forget, FreeBSD _invented_ load-sharing ...... it is just stomp-down amazing how many logins at once that system can handle!!!! -- This Email is 100% Virus Free! How do I know? Because no Microsoft products were used to generate it! Regards Don Hansford ECKYTECH COMPUTING/ SQIT Warwick

From: "Timothy R. Butler" Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:22:02 -0600 Message-ID: <002701c05359$73ff9ba0$0101a8c0@g4958> Subject: RE: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. <p>----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" ===================== <p>> Now the perennial question? Is the US the only country in the world? The

fact is, the US has only a small percentage of the Earths' population (less than 5%), and I would hazard the guess that a heck of a lot of the others are lucky to get a 33.6 dialup speed.

True, but I believe we also buy well over a quarter (or is it a third?) of the goods purchased on the earth. The U.S. isn't the most populous country, but it is one of the richest and most computerized.

...

I'm also looking at the fact that many new computers come standard with CD-RW drives. Together, if not now, I would assume soon, many Linux'ers will download there distro unless given a reason not to. I could be wrong...

One of the reasons a lot of people go to Linux, is so that they won't have to remain on the hardware upgrade Merry-go-round.

True, but many people are using CD-RW's now. I just bought one a few weeks ago for just $119 - I assume many other people are taking advantage of the new low pricing too.

...

...I just want a distribution I can justify buying every three or four months when a new version comes out.

Do what I do, buy every _other_ one.

That would work.

...

I don't want to spend the same amount as a full copy of Windows Millenium Edition ($189) each year in Linux updates. However, $25 every four months wouldn't seem all that bad. And the added value of a DVD would definately create demand...

That argument could be refuted on a couple of points, 1) WinME doesn't come with 1500 apps and utilities,

True, but none of Window ME's code is developed for free and made open source. :-) If SuSE developed every line of code of those 1,500 apps - it would cost a lot more. Although I'm not saying that SuSE doesn't do a lot, but MS has written a lot more code than SuSE has (for their respective OSes), I'm pretty sure...

...

Just my $0.02...

Plus mine :-)

Now are we up to six? <g> -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" ===================== <p><p>>

--

This Email is 100% Virus Free! How do I know? Because no Microsoft products were used to generate it!

Regards Don Hansford ECKYTECH COMPUTING/ SQIT Warwick

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

From: "Timothy R. Butler" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:45:39 -0600 Message-ID: <000c01c0543f$0ff59740$0101a8c0@g4958> Subject: RE: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH.

The cheapest I can get one here is about $350 - (our poor old dollar is worth about 58c US) On line costs are similar - I live two hours drive from Brisbane (State Capital) and a 24/7 dialup connection will cost me $145/month with a 5GB download limit. Or I can pay an ISP $1550 for the connection, then $445/month for ISDN - with a 10GB/month d/l limit. I have to sign up for a minimum 18 months to get it that cheap(!). That would make a few problems with the wife, I'm sure! In Brisbane itself, I believe the

Woah, that is pretty bad. I can get a cable or ASDL line with unlimited bandwidth for $39.95 a month (What about $80 in Australian Dollars?). <p>> Sure they have, and great code it is (not!). The fact is, Linux and the

FSF promote the word "free" as in 'free speech' - not 'free beer'. Would you really expect someone to put in the work that SuSE does on the distro, AND support the Open Source movement the way they do, without looking for a return on their investment? I still consider the Pro package to be a very reasonable price to pay for a collection of top quality (and constantly getting better) software.

Right, I agree. Mainly my point was that, since I would say around 80-90% of the code is free (as in 'free beer') for SuSE to use, it isn't quite like SuSE is developing 1,500 apps. I might also add, that not all of the 1,500 apps work or work well, so it's not even 1,500 GREAT apps. Not complaining here, simply pointing out that top quality code or not, MS offers quite a bit more investment for the price they charge. On the flip side, they also sell wwwaaayyy more software. However, while I still think that the Pro edition is a bit on the high side (c'mon I was paying $29 for the same thing for months ago - inflation ain't that bad), I'm simply suggesting a cheaper version to complement SuSE's current offerings.

...

...

...

Just my $0.02...

Plus mine :-)

Now are we up to six? <g>

--eight--

Okay now we are at ten - are we using U.S. currency? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================

Message-ID: <3A18D8C8.9FAE5A1C@turk.net> Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:54:48 +0200 From: Togan Muftuoglu Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. "Timothy R. Butler" wrote: Hi, Timothy

To SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH, I find it funny that over one month after I petitioned for a response to my Guru Edition proposal, I have heard nothing. Other users, indeed, have agreed with me

What makes you think that you have the hear a reply from SuSE ? What makes you think that they have never considered you approach ?

that this is a product that would be useful. Pure common sense that more and more people have broadband internet and a cd burner alone hint at the fact that there is little reason for a knowledgeable user to buy a $70 distro.

In where do people have broadband internet? That is a relative point as where I live a non diconnecting dialup is considered to be excellent. The knowledgeable user has the option to buy the upgrade not the full version so not $70 distibution. The knowledagble user who has the broad internet connection has the option to do ftp install freeofcharge for the OS not limited to SuSE

That is why I, along with other SuSE Linux users, have said that a full version without all the manuals and support for a dirt cheap price would be great. This is a win/win situation for both users and SuSE. If people like me go download SuSE off FTP, how much does SuSE make? Nothing. If I go spend a $20 or $30 (the price Linux distros should be, IMO) and buy a SuSE, how much does SuSE make? I don't know - but it's more than if I download SuSE.

How you define the customer can be different from SuSE ! I do not think SuSE is aiming to make millions of dollars from the sales revenue of the personal /pro/upgrade edition packages. This would be looking to a forest and seeing the tree only. If I was a member of Sales and Marketing at Suse I would have focused on large support sales; corporate accounts (making transition to use SuSE linux at the corporation). These would pump more cash in to the company than selling the packages alone One examaple that comes in to my mind is the Pareto rule 80 % of the customers make 20 % profit and vice versa. <p>> The moral of the story is, you can't endlessly bundle services with an open

source product to inflate prices.

IMHO service is something else and yes you can bundle it endlessly depending on how creative you are at creating services and how succesfull you are at marketing those services

Eventually, knowledgeable users will just burn their own CD's. However, if SuSE gives an affordable way to support SuSE's continued good work, but doesn't force the user to buy more than he wants - we both win.

<p>AFAIK you are not forced to buy anyhting at all. Waiting patiently will allow you to do a ftp install when it is available. <p>> This is a request for comments for either SuSE division, I would greatly

appreciate a response.

The best solution I think is rather than sending to suse-linux mail list (which is just a community service from Suse to the users) sendit to feedback@suse.com if you have not done yet. Then you can be sure than someone responsible for listening customer feedback is hearing you. Again I would say that does not obliged them to implement the idea. Over all what do we know about SuSE business and marketing plan and the blue print for growth. These are internal things and Suse does not need to make them open source also. <p><p>> Once again this is what I'm proposing:

Guru Edition: - 6 CD's/1 DVD - Small 10 or 20 page booklet with errata, getting started, etc. in Jewel Case - Sold at retail stores (could be in section where they sell software that is only in a Jewel Case - No box, no support, just 6 CD's and 1 DVD in a Jewel case or if necessary - a paper CD case. - Sold somewhere between $20-$30 (There is no reason for it to be more, it has no support, no manual, and most of the software is developed around the world for free) - Could replace the current Upgrade Edition

replacing the upgrade edition what is you reasoning ? here is mine that I disagree why should I buy the full product where I can get the upgrade and still have the limited support <p> -- Togan Muftuoglu toganm@turk.net 100% MS FREE Absolutely no component of Microsoft was used in the generation or posting of this e-mail. So it is virus free

From: "Timothy R. Butler" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 22:45:36 -0600 Message-ID: <000b01c0543f$0e28c680$0101a8c0@g4958> Subject: RE: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. Hey Cliff, I didn't say I was a guru, I suggested Guru edition. That is, requires more knowledge than some one who is a using the Personal edition or who is a profession (using professional). Let me be the first to state that I am not a guru in any sense of the word. Maybe PowerPack would be a better name? -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" ===================== <p><p>> -----Original Message-----

From: Cliff Sarginson [mailto:cliff@raggedclown.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 5:28 AM To: Togan Muftuoglu Cc: SuSE Mailing List Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH.

Come to think of it I rather object to people implicitly describing themselves as "gurus" because they have fast internet connections. They maybe rich, but that doesn;t make them Gurus... which is a silly word to use anyway.

Keep on rocking...

Cliff

...

"Timothy R. Butler" wrote:

Hi, Timothy

...

To SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH, I find it funny that over one month after I petitioned for a

response to my Guru

...

Edition proposal, I have heard nothing. Other users, indeed, have agreed with me

What makes you think that you have the hear a reply from SuSE ? What makes you think that they have never considered you approach ?

...

that this is a product that would be useful. Pure common sense that more and more people have broadband internet and a cd burner alone hint at the fact that there is little reason for a knowledgeable user to buy a $70 distro.

In where do people have broadband internet? That is a relative point as where I live a non diconnecting dialup is considered to be excellent.

The knowledgeable user has the option to buy the upgrade not the full version so not $70 distibution. The knowledagble user who has the broad internet connection has the option to do ftp install freeofcharge for the OS not limited to SuSE

...

That is why I, along with other SuSE Linux users, have said that a full version without all the manuals and support for a dirt cheap price would be great. This is a win/win situation for both users and SuSE. If people like me go download SuSE off FTP, how much does SuSE make? Nothing. If I go spend a $20 or $30 (the price Linux distros should be, IMO) and buy a SuSE, how much does SuSE make? I don't know - but it's more than if I download SuSE.

How you define the customer can be different from SuSE !

I do not think SuSE is aiming to make millions of dollars from the sales revenue of the personal /pro/upgrade edition packages. This would be looking to a forest and seeing the tree only. If I was a member of Sales and Marketing at Suse I would have focused on large support sales; corporate accounts (making transition to use SuSE linux at the corporation). These would pump more cash in to the company than selling the packages alone

One examaple that comes in to my mind is the Pareto rule 80 % of the customers make 20 % profit and vice versa.

...

The moral of the story is, you can't endlessly bundle services with an open source product to inflate prices.

IMHO service is something else and yes you can bundle it endlessly depending on how creative you are at creating services and how succesfull you are at marketing those services

...

Eventually, knowledgeable users will just burn their own CD's. However, if SuSE gives an affordable way to support SuSE's continued good work, but doesn't force the user to buy more than he wants - we both win.

AFAIK you are not forced to buy anyhting at all. Waiting patiently will allow you to do a ftp install when it is available.

...

This is a request for comments for either SuSE division, I would greatly appreciate a response.

The best solution I think is rather than sending to suse-linux mail list (which is just a community service from Suse to the users) sendit to feedback@suse.com if you have not done yet. Then you can be sure than someone responsible for listening customer feedback is hearing you. Again I would say that does not obliged them to implement the idea. Over all what do we know about SuSE business and marketing plan and the blue print for growth. These are internal things and Suse does not need to make them open source also.

...

Once again this is what I'm proposing:

Guru Edition: - 6 CD's/1 DVD - Small 10 or 20 page booklet with errata, getting started, etc. in Jewel Case - Sold at retail stores (could be in section where they sell software that is only in a Jewel Case - No box, no support, just 6 CD's and 1 DVD in a Jewel case or if necessary - a paper CD case. - Sold somewhere between $20-$30 (There is no reason for it to be more, it has no support, no manual, and most of the software is developed around

On Mon, Nov 20, 2000 at 09:54:48AM +0200, Togan Muftuoglu wrote: the world for

...

...

free) - Could replace the current Upgrade Edition

replacing the upgrade edition what is you reasoning ?

here is mine that I disagree why should I buy the full product where I can get the upgrade and still have the limited support

-- Togan Muftuoglu toganm@turk.net

100% MS FREE Absolutely no component of Microsoft was used in the generation or posting of this e-mail. So it is virus free

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq

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Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.20001121093838.00fbb4e0@popd.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:38:38 +0000
From: Samy Elashmawy 
Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH.



I think you can burn a cd right off the ftp sight and use that.

At 12:20 PM 11/21/2000 +0100, Cliff Sarginson wrote:
>I have bought CD's in Holland, where I live, from a small
>company that burns them and sells them very cheaply.
>This is strictly legal. However they cannot do so with
>Suse CD's because of the "pay" type software on the CD's.
>
>It would be nice if Suse could produce CD's that do not
>contain software with licensing problems that prevent this.
>
>In passing I would say that here in Holland the Suse 
>dustribution is marketed in a very strange way. You
>can buy the English Personal Edition and the English Professional
>edition. You can also buy the Dutch edition. The Dutch edition
>is much cheaper, and contains all of the professional edition software!
>The only things different are:
>-No DVD
>-Staroffice is a Dutch language edition.
>-The installation manual is in Dutch.
>
>Mysterious huh ?
>
>Cliff
>
>On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 08:51:27PM -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
>> To SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH,
>>   I find it funny that over one month after I petitioned for a response
to my Guru
>> Edition proposal, I have heard nothing. Other users, indeed, have agreed
with me
>> that this is a product that would be useful. Pure common sense that more
and more
>> people have broadband internet and a cd burner alone hint at the fact
that there
>> is little reason for a knowledgeable user to buy a $70 distro.
>>   That is why I, along with other SuSE Linux users, have said that a
full version
>> without all the manuals and support for a dirt cheap price would be
great. This is
>> a win/win situation for both users and SuSE. If people like me go
download SuSE
>> off FTP, how much does SuSE make? Nothing. If I go spend a $20 or $30
(the price
>> Linux distros should be, IMO) and buy a SuSE, how much does SuSE make? I
don't
>> know - but it's more than if I download SuSE.
>>   The moral of the story is, you can't endlessly bundle services with an
open
>> source product to inflate prices. Eventually, knowledgeable users will
just burn
>> their own CD's. However, if SuSE gives an affordable way to support SuSE's
>> continued good work, but doesn't force the user to buy more than he
wants - we
>> both win.
>> 
>>  This is a request for comments for either SuSE division, I would greatly
>> appreciate a response.
>> 
>>   Once again this is what I'm proposing:
>> 
>>     Guru Edition:
>>     - 6 CD's/1 DVD
>>     - Small 10 or 20 page booklet with errata, getting started, etc. in
Jewel Case
>>     - Sold at retail stores (could be in section where they sell
software that is
>> only in a Jewel Case
>>     - No box, no support, just 6 CD's and 1 DVD in a Jewel case or if
necessary -
>> a paper CD case.
>>     - Sold somewhere between $20-$30 (There is no reason for it to be
more, it has
>> no support, no manual, and most of the software is developed around the
world for
>> free)
>>     - Could replace the current Upgrade Edition
>> 
>> 
>>   -Tim
>> 
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Timothy R. Butler                              Universal Networks
>> Information Tech. Consultant    Christian Web Services Since 1996
>> ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm       An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller
>> tbutler@uninetsolutions.com        http://www.uninetsolutions.com
>> ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Timothy R. Butler [mailto:tbutler@uninetsolutions.com]
>> > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 7:37 PM
>> > To: Jonathan Wilson; SuSE Mailing List
>> > Subject: RE: [SLE] SuSE Needs a "Guru Edition"! (was RE: [SLE] Upgrade
>> > worth it?)
>> >
>> >
>> > Glad to hear someone else feels the same way! It seems especially
critical for
>> > SuSE to realize the need for this since broadband is becoming
increasingly
>> > popular, and those of us who don't need $50 added to the price tag for
books and
>> > support will be more likely to download in the future _unless_ there is
>> > a cheaper
>> > version with all of the power.
>> >
>> >   Just my $0.02...
>> >
>> >    -Tim
>> >
>> > PS: I believe I might signup for broadband soon, so I'll be all set for
>> > downloading it. However, as I said, if there was a cheap version with
6-CD's
>> > (what, less than $0.10 a piece) and a DVD without support or a manual
- I'd pay
>> > for it. Anyone at SuSE or other users who feel the same?
>> >
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Timothy R. Butler                              Universal Networks
>> > Information Tech. Consultant    Christian Web Services Since 1996
>> > ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm       An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller
>> > tbutler@uninetsolutions.com        http://www.uninetsolutions.com
>> > ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Jonathan Wilson [mailto:wilson@claborn.net]
>> > > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:15 AM
>> > > To: tbutler@uninetsolutions.com
>> > > Subject: Re: [SLE] SuSE Needs a "Guru Edition"! (was RE: [SLE] Upgrade
>> > > worth it?)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Same here! I'd buy every single version if it would fall to $40 or
>> > > less. And I use the books less and less all the time, in fact I hardly
>> > > ever look at them now. They should just make the book available online
>> > > on their web site.
>> > >
>> > >         JW
>> > >
>> > > At 07:48 PM 10/11/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>> > > >Hi Tosi,
>> > > >> You don't think half a thought ? What of FOUR books ? For the
price of SuSE
>> > > >> Linux 7.0 Pro
>> > > >> I get *ONE* book "for idiots" on Linux. What of the work of making a
>> > > >
>> > > >  But, I don't need four books. That's fine, but I don't feel like
>> > shelling out
>> > > >$30 extra bucks every 4 months when all I want is the CD's. But, I
>> > > have no choice,
>> > > >the upgrade is just $10 less than the full thing at retail, and that
>> > > savings would
>> > > >be taken by the shipping and handling.
>> > > >  Personally, for power users, I think SuSE should take RedHat's old
>> > > "Powertools"
>> > > >idea, and offer a version that is just 6-cds and 1 DVD, and perhaps
>> > a few page
>> > > >booklet that fits in the product's jewel case. Then stamp something
between
>> > > >$20-$35 on the case and call it "SuSE 7.1 Guru Edition" or something
>> > like that.
>> > > >  The fact is, I wouldn't mind buying ever single version of SuSE, but
>> > > I won't do
>> > > >it for $60-$70 a wack. However, if SuSE had that "Guru Edition",
>> > SuSE probably
>> > > >would probably have a higher profit margin on that version than the
>> > Pro edition
>> > > >(since it lacks manuals and support), and they would also sell more
to "SOHO"
>> > > >users like myself. Infact, I probably won't buy another copy of SuSE
>> > > as it stands
>> > > >for at least a year and a half [can't justify $70 for small
>> > upgrades], but I'd
>> > > >gladly pay $25, say, for every version of the bookless version.
>> > > >  Another benefit for SuSE on such a version would be the fact that
>> > > Broadband is
>> > > >increasingly popular. If I had broadband I would be inclined to
just download
>> > > >SuSE, but I still might ***buy*** it if it's going for $25.
>> > > >
>> > > >  Just my $0.02...
>> > > >
>> > > >   -Tim
>> > > >
>> > > >-----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >Timothy R. Butler                              Universal Networks
>> > > >Information Tech. Consultant    Christian Web Services Since 1996
>> > > >ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm       An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller
>> > > >tbutler@uninetsolutions.com        http://www.uninetsolutions.com
>> > > >===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> USER-FRIENDLY install-
>> > > >> process ? That takes a large amount of work, and does cost a lot
>> > of money if
>> > > >> you're paying
>> > > >> someone to do it for you. And what about a supportline ? Slackware
>> > has to my
>> > > >> knowledge NONE,
>> > > >> and neither do *BSD ( not counting usenet and post-lists ) I
think SuSE are
>> > > >> walking in the
>> > > >> middle of that narrow yellow-brick road between rough-cut (
Slackware etc )
>> > > >> and overpriced
>> > > >> ( RedHat ), and doing so with style.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> -tosi
>> > > >>
>> > > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> From: Timothy R. Butler [mailto:tbutler@uninetsolutions.com]
>> > > >> Sent: 11. október 2000 22:24
>> > > >> To: SuSE Mailing List
>> > > >> Subject: RE: [SLE] Upgrade worth it?
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Hi there,
>> > > >>  I thought I'd add a little something into my rant from last
week. FreeBSD
>> > > >> is not
>> > > >> only cheaper but comes with 2,000 packages (the extra 6 CD's) on
top of the
>> > > >> main
>> > > >> distribution packages (first 4 CD's).
>> > > >>  Now, I can't attest to the quality or the ease-of-use of FreeBSD,
>> > nor would
>> > > >> I
>> > > >> want to switch from Linux, but that means two of the "other" guys
(FreeBSD
>> > > >> along
>> > > >> with Slackware) both offer comparable amounts of stuff for less
money. And,
>> > > >> if
>> > > >> ease of use is the excuse, once again, look at Windows ME Quick
Jump for
>> > > >> Windows
>> > > >> 98 at just $49 (at stores).
>> > > >>
>> > > >>   I'll quit ranting for now, but I still can't understand why
SuSE is
>> > > >> suddenly
>> > > >> worth so much more (30-40 $ is a big big hike)...
>> > > >>
>> > > >>   Still ranting at the fact that open source ain't cheap any more...
>> > > >>
>> > > >>    -Tim
>> > > >>
>> > > >> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >> Timothy R. Butler                              Universal Networks
>> > > >> Information Tech. Consultant    Christian Web Services Since 1996
>> > > >> ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm       An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller
>> > > >> tbutler@uninetsolutions.com        http://www.uninetsolutions.com
>> > > >> ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
>> > > >> > From: Timothy R. Butler [mailto:tbutler@uninetsolutions.com]
>> > > >> > Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 11:11 PM
>> > > >> > To: SuSE Mailing List
>> > > >> > Subject: [SLE] Upgrade worth it?
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > Hi again,
>> > > >> >   I know, I know, I'm posting about the Upgrade pricing (again),
>> > but I was
>> > > >> > wondering if the Upgrade situation will improve. I noticed that
>> > on the web
>> > > >> site,
>> > > >> > SuSE Pro 7.0 Upgrade is $49.95 plus Shipping and Handling,
however I've
>> > > >> seen the
>> > > >> > full release for only ten bucks more ($59). As you can figure,
if you
>> > > >> > buy the full
>> > > >> > one for $59 at the store, you aren't going to save much (if
any) buying
>> > > >> the
>> > > >> > upgrade for $49 + S&H. So my question is, once SuSE realizes
that the
>> > > >> upgrade's
>> > > >> > price isn't saving anybody anything, and comes with _less_ than
the
>> > > >> > full release,
>> > > >> > will they make the price more sensible?
>> > > >> >   Before when I asked about prices, I know it was my opinion
vs. someone
>> > > >> else's,
>> > > >> > but I don't understand this. I'm sure SuSE _knew_ that most stores
>> > > >> > would charge at
>> > > >> > least $10 less than MSRP (as usual), and yet they priced the
upgrade high
>> > > >> enough
>> > > >> > that it is virtually useless to even offer here. Did anyone
else notice
>> > > >> this?
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >   I might add, usually upgrades are a substantial price
difference. If
>> > > >> nothing
>> > > >> > else, it would be nice if each version came with a coupon to
upgrade for
>> > > >> $30-$40
>> > > >> > to the next release (when released). That way new customers
would pay the
>> > > >> full
>> > > >> > price, but loyal buy-every-version customers would get a deal.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >   Case and point:
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >    MS Windows Millenium Edition ARP (Average Retail Pricing): $189
>> > > >> >    MS Windows Millenium Edition Upgrade ARP: $89.95
>> > > >> >    MS Windows Millenium Edition Quick Jump ARP: $49.95
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >   As you can see, since Windows 98 to ME's features were nearly
the
>> > > >> > same (similar
>> > > >> > to how SuSE 6.4 and 7.0 are nearly the same, from what I hear),
>> > > >> > Microsoft offered
>> > > >> > Windows 98 users (loyal buy-every-version customers) a really
cheap
>> > > >> > version. Quick
>> > > >> > Jump retails for 1/4 of the full version's price, and nearly
1/2 of even
>> > > >> the
>> > > >> > upgrade's price.
>> > > >> >   While it can be said this is different, it is not. Microsoft
sees that
>> > > >> the
>> > > >> > difference between 98 and ME isn't enough to get everyone to
pay even
>> > > >> > $89 for it,
>> > > >> > so they offer customers who have bought 98 or 98 SE a cheaper
version.
>> > > >> > To me, this
>> > > >> > is ideal for Linux distros too, since generally there is little
>> > > >> > version-to-version
>> > > >> > change, but slow accumulative change. Enclosing an offer, as I
said
>> > > >> before,
>> > > >> > allowing say 6.4 users-only to go to 7.0 for say $29-$39 would
be great.
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >   Just my $0.02, adding up to over $1.00 since I've already
>> > thown in a lot
>> > > >> of
>> > > >> > $0.02 on the issue...
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >    -Tim
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > >> > Timothy R. Butler                              Universal Networks
>> > > >> > Information Tech. Consultant    Christian Web Services Since 1996
>> > > >> > ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm       An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller
>> > > >> > tbutler@uninetsolutions.com        http://www.uninetsolutions.com
>> > > >> > ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> > --
>> > > >> > To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com
>> > > >> > For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
>> > > >> > Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
>> > > >> >
>> > > >> >
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> --
>> > > >> To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com
>> > > >> For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
>> > > >> Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> --
>> > > >> To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com
>> > > >> For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
>> > > >> Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >--
>> > > >To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com
>> > > >For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
>> > > >Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com
>> > For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
>> > Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com
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>> Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq      
>
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>Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq      
>
>

To SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH, I find it funny that over one month after I petitioned for a response to my Guru Edition proposal, I have heard nothing. Other users, indeed, have agreed with me that this is a product that would be useful. Pure common sense that more and more people have broadband internet and a cd burner alone hint at the fact that

is little reason for a knowledgeable user to buy a $70 distro. That is why I, along with other SuSE Linux users, have said that a full version without all the manuals and support for a dirt cheap price would be great. This is a win/win situation for both users and SuSE. If people like me go download SuSE off FTP, how much does SuSE make? Nothing. If I go spend a $20 or $30 (the

Linux distros should be, IMO) and buy a SuSE, how much does SuSE make? I don't know - but it's more than if I download SuSE. The moral of the story is, you can't endlessly bundle services with an open source product to inflate prices. Eventually, knowledgeable users will just burn their own CD's. However, if SuSE gives an affordable way to support SuSE's continued good work, but doesn't force the user to buy more than he wants - we both win.

This is a request for comments for either SuSE division, I would greatly appreciate a response.

Once again this is what I'm proposing:

Guru Edition: - 6 CD's/1 DVD - Small 10 or 20 page booklet with errata, getting started, etc. in Jewel Case - Sold at retail stores (could be in section where they sell software

only in a Jewel Case - No box, no support, just 6 CD's and 1 DVD in a Jewel case or if necessary - a paper CD case. - Sold somewhere between $20-$30 (There is no reason for it to be more, it has no support, no manual, and most of the software is developed around the world for free) - Could replace the current Upgrade Edition

-Tim

----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================

...

-----Original Message----- From: Timothy R. Butler [mailto:tbutler@uninetsolutions.com] Sent: Friday, October 13, 2000 7:37 PM To: Jonathan Wilson; SuSE Mailing List Subject: RE: [SLE] SuSE Needs a "Guru Edition"! (was RE: [SLE] Upgrade worth it?)

Glad to hear someone else feels the same way! It seems especially critical for SuSE to realize the need for this since broadband is becoming increasingly popular, and those of us who don't need $50 added to the price tag for books and support will be more likely to download in the future _unless_ there is a cheaper version with all of the power.

Just my $0.02...

-Tim

PS: I believe I might signup for broadband soon, so I'll be all set for downloading it. However, as I said, if there was a cheap version with 6-CD's (what, less than $0.10 a piece) and a DVD without support or a manual - I'd pay for it. Anyone at SuSE or other users who feel the same?

----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================

...

-----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Wilson [mailto:wilson@claborn.net] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:15 AM To: tbutler@uninetsolutions.com Subject: Re: [SLE] SuSE Needs a "Guru Edition"! (was RE: [SLE] Upgrade worth it?)

Same here! I'd buy every single version if it would fall to $40 or less. And I use the books less and less all the time, in fact I hardly ever look at them now. They should just make the book available online on their web site.

JW

...

Hi Tosi,

...

You don't think half a thought ? What of FOUR books ? For the price of SuSE Linux 7.0 Pro I get *ONE* book "for idiots" on Linux. What of the work of making a

But, I don't need four books. That's fine, but I don't feel like shelling out $30 extra bucks every 4 months when all I want is the CD's. But, I have no choice, the upgrade is just $10 less than the full thing at retail, and that savings would be taken by the shipping and handling. Personally, for power users, I think SuSE should take RedHat's old "Powertools" idea, and offer a version that is just 6-cds and 1 DVD, and perhaps a few page booklet that fits in the product's jewel case. Then stamp something between $20-$35 on the case and call it "SuSE 7.1 Guru Edition" or something

At 07:48 PM 10/11/2000 -0500, you wrote: like that.

...

The fact is, I wouldn't mind buying ever single version of SuSE, but I won't do it for $60-$70 a wack. However, if SuSE had that "Guru Edition", SuSE probably would probably have a higher profit margin on that version than the Pro edition (since it lacks manuals and support), and they would also sell more to "SOHO" users like myself. Infact, I probably won't buy another copy of SuSE as it stands for at least a year and a half [can't justify $70 for small upgrades], but I'd gladly pay $25, say, for every version of the bookless version. Another benefit for SuSE on such a version would be the fact that Broadband is increasingly popular. If I had broadband I would be inclined to just download SuSE, but I still might ***buy*** it if it's going for $25.

Just my $0.02...

-Tim

----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================

...

USER-FRIENDLY install- process ? That takes a large amount of work, and does cost a lot of money if you're paying someone to do it for you. And what about a supportline ? Slackware has to my knowledge NONE, and neither do *BSD ( not counting usenet and post-lists ) I think SuSE are walking in the middle of that narrow yellow-brick road between rough-cut ( Slackware etc ) and overpriced ( RedHat ), and doing so with style.

-tosi

-----Original Message----- From: Timothy R. Butler [mailto:tbutler@uninetsolutions.com] Sent: 11. október 2000 22:24 To: SuSE Mailing List Subject: RE: [SLE] Upgrade worth it?

Hi there, I thought I'd add a little something into my rant from last week. FreeBSD is not only cheaper but comes with 2,000 packages (the extra 6 CD's) on top of the main distribution packages (first 4 CD's). Now, I can't attest to the quality or the ease-of-use of FreeBSD, nor would I want to switch from Linux, but that means two of the "other" guys (FreeBSD along with Slackware) both offer comparable amounts of stuff for less money. And, if ease of use is the excuse, once again, look at Windows ME Quick Jump for Windows 98 at just $49 (at stores).

I'll quit ranting for now, but I still can't understand why SuSE is suddenly worth so much more (30-40 $ is a big big hike)...

Still ranting at the fact that open source ain't cheap any more...

-Tim

----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================

...

-----Original Message----- From: Timothy R. Butler [mailto:tbutler@uninetsolutions.com] Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 11:11 PM To: SuSE Mailing List Subject: [SLE] Upgrade worth it?

Hi again, I know, I know, I'm posting about the Upgrade pricing (again), but I was wondering if the Upgrade situation will improve. I noticed that on the web site, SuSE Pro 7.0 Upgrade is $49.95 plus Shipping and Handling, however I've seen the full release for only ten bucks more ($59). As you can figure, if you buy the full one for $59 at the store, you aren't going to save much (if any) buying the upgrade for $49 + S&H. So my question is, once SuSE realizes that

...

...

...

...

upgrade's

...

price isn't saving anybody anything, and comes with _less_ than

...

...

...

...

...

full release, will they make the price more sensible? Before when I asked about prices, I know it was my opinion vs. someone else's, but I don't understand this. I'm sure SuSE _knew_ that most stores would charge at least $10 less than MSRP (as usual), and yet they priced the upgrade high enough that it is virtually useless to even offer here. Did anyone else notice this?

I might add, usually upgrades are a substantial price difference. If nothing else, it would be nice if each version came with a coupon to upgrade for $30-$40 to the next release (when released). That way new customers would

...

...

...

...

full

...

price, but loyal buy-every-version customers would get a deal.

Case and point:

MS Windows Millenium Edition ARP (Average Retail Pricing): $189 MS Windows Millenium Edition Upgrade ARP: $89.95 MS Windows Millenium Edition Quick Jump ARP: $49.95

As you can see, since Windows 98 to ME's features were nearly

Message-ID: <002501c053d0$08dd55c0$070210ac@horsell.ibgames.com> From: "Alan Lenton" Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 15:30:20 -0000 Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. We may live in a 'global village', but the laws and the copyright rules are still national ones! Alan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cliff Sarginson" To: "Timothy R. Butler" Cc: "SuSE Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [SLE] This is an RfC for SuSE, Inc. and SuSE GmBH. <p>I have bought CD's in Holland, where I live, from a small company that burns them and sells them very cheaply. This is strictly legal. However they cannot do so with Suse CD's because of the "pay" type software on the CD's. It would be nice if Suse could produce CD's that do not contain software with licensing problems that prevent this. In passing I would say that here in Holland the Suse dustribution is marketed in a very strange way. You can buy the English Personal Edition and the English Professional edition. You can also buy the Dutch edition. The Dutch edition is much cheaper, and contains all of the professional edition software! The only things different are: -No DVD -Staroffice is a Dutch language edition. -The installation manual is in Dutch. Mysterious huh ? Cliff On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 08:51:27PM -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote: there price that is the the pay the the

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...

same (similar to how SuSE 6.4 and 7.0 are nearly the same, from what I hear), Microsoft offered Windows 98 users (loyal buy-every-version customers) a really cheap version. Quick Jump retails for 1/4 of the full version's price, and nearly 1/2 of even the upgrade's price. While it can be said this is different, it is not. Microsoft sees that the difference between 98 and ME isn't enough to get everyone to pay even $89 for it, so they offer customers who have bought 98 or 98 SE a cheaper version. To me, this is ideal for Linux distros too, since generally there is little version-to-version change, but slow accumulative change. Enclosing an offer, as I said before, allowing say 6.4 users-only to go to 7.0 for say $29-$39 would be great.

Just my $0.02, adding up to over $1.00 since I've already thown in a lot of $0.02 on the issue...

-Tim

----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================

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