Can someone please clarify the following: If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years. If I elect to use my server with its DNS capability to send the mail 'direct', even though I still need the ISP to give me an internet connection, they have nothing to log. Is my understanding correct? Many thanks John -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 12:02, John wrote:
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
SUSE does that too with its mailing lists. ;) But how long an ISP is allowed to keep your email might differ from country to country.
If I elect to use my server with its DNS capability to send the mail 'direct', even though I still need the ISP to give me an internet connection, they have nothing to log.
Is my understanding correct?
Do they log (email) traffic? I suppose your internet traffic has to pass through their servers, right? Then theoretically they can log whatever they want, the legality of it being another question. ;) Cheers, Leen -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2006-06-02 at 12:36 +0200, Leendert Meyer wrote:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
SUSE does that too with its mailing lists. ;) But how long an ISP is allowed to keep your email might differ from country to country.
I think that in Europe they have to keep the headers for a year or so. Or part of the headers: from, to, etc. But I'm not sure if they have agreed on this, and if it is implemented, and which countries. ISPs want to charge the goverments the cost of the storage, for instance. They also log connections (phone number, id, IP, timestamp). This I think has been done always, but may depnd on countries, of course. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEgBkatTMYHG2NR9URArm+AJ992bx5Z/2PO93wOpEMVfHExZdtBwCcD+ex gnAyio9OHfTdQ0CJexH7+1c= =G6S2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Leen, On Friday 02 June 2006 03:36, Leendert Meyer wrote:
On Friday 02 June 2006 12:02, John wrote:
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
...
If I elect to use my server with its DNS capability to send the mail 'direct', even though I still need the ISP to give me an internet connection, they have nothing to log.
Is my understanding correct?
Do they log (email) traffic? I suppose your internet traffic has to pass through their servers, right? Then theoretically they can log whatever they want, the legality of it being another question. ;)
It has to pass through their routers, yes, and that does give them the _possibility_ to log application-level protocol information, such as POP, IMAP or RFC2822 (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2822.html) headers. While I'd expect extensive logging of mail relayed via one's ISP's mail servers, I'd be surprised (at the moment) if they were doing it for TCP streams that were not terminating in one of their servers, which I believe was John's question.
Cheers,
Leen
Randall Schulz -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 15:36, Randall R Schulz wrote:
Leen,
On Friday 02 June 2006 03:36, Leendert Meyer wrote:
On Friday 02 June 2006 12:02, John wrote:
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
...
If I elect to use my server with its DNS capability to send the mail 'direct', even though I still need the ISP to give me an internet connection, they have nothing to log.
Is my understanding correct?
Do they log (email) traffic? I suppose your internet traffic has to pass through their servers, right? Then theoretically they can log whatever they want, the legality of it being another question. ;)
It has to pass through their routers, yes, and that does give them the _possibility_ to log application-level protocol information, such as POP, IMAP or RFC2822 (http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2822.html) headers.
While I'd expect extensive logging of mail relayed via one's ISP's mail servers, I'd be surprised (at the moment) if they were doing it for TCP streams that were not terminating in one of their servers, which I believe was John's question.
Indeed. I suppose the better answer to John would probably be: "Have you asked your ISP?". Cheers, Leen -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
John wrote:
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
If I elect to use my server with its DNS capability to send the mail 'direct', even though I still need the ISP to give me an internet connection, they have nothing to log.
Is my understanding correct?
Your ISP can theoretically intercept anything and everything your servers sends or receives as your internet-connection obviously goes through your ISP. If you operate your own mailserver, your ISP would need to be listening in on e.g. port25 to have anything to log - not likely, but far from impossible. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Fri, 2006-06-02 at 12:50 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
John wrote:
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
If I elect to use my server with its DNS capability to send the mail 'direct', even though I still need the ISP to give me an internet connection, they have nothing to log.
Is my understanding correct?
Your ISP can theoretically intercept anything and everything your servers sends or receives as your internet-connection obviously goes through your ISP.
If you operate your own mailserver, your ISP would need to be listening in on e.g. port25 to have anything to log - not likely, but far from impossible.
And the funny thing is that if I wanted to contact my nogoodnick buddies, I would choose to use other than port 25. Maybe their evil smtp daemon is listening on port 666 (evil, don't ya know). Just about any e-mail client lets you select the port. All this with standard off-the-shelf software. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems AB Ramböll Sverige AB Kapellgränd 7 P.O. Box 4205 SE-102 65 Stockholm, Sweden Tel: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Fax: Int +46 8-31 42 23 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
And the funny thing is that if I wanted to contact my nogoodnick buddies, I would choose to use other than port 25. Maybe their evil smtp daemon is listening on port 666 (evil, don't ya know). Just about any e-mail client lets you select the port. All this with standard off-the-shelf software.
But of course - however, the point is really that if someone wants to spy on you and your internet-traffic, there's very little that'll stop them. If instead it's mostly about avoiding leaving an immediate trace, security by obscurity does work quite well. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
So, to recap, if I set my postfix server to send direct via DNS, it may, or masy not, be logged by my ISP, depending on their nosiness. For incoming mail, I use Freeparking (http://www.freeparking.co.uk/) to redirect to my own DNS server. Does this bypass my ISP or not? Many Thanks John Per Jessen wrote:
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
And the funny thing is that if I wanted to contact my nogoodnick buddies, I would choose to use other than port 25. Maybe their evil smtp daemon is listening on port 666 (evil, don't ya know). Just about any e-mail client lets you select the port. All this with standard off-the-shelf software.
But of course - however, the point is really that if someone wants to spy on you and your internet-traffic, there's very little that'll stop them. If instead it's mostly about avoiding leaving an immediate trace, security by obscurity does work quite well.
/Per Jessen, Zürich
-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 15:15, John wrote:
For incoming mail, I use Freeparking (http://www.freeparking.co.uk/) to redirect to my own DNS server. Does this bypass my ISP or not?
Any traffic that goes to or from your computer can be seen by your ISP. If that bothers you, use encryption -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Fri, 2006-06-02 at 14:15 +0100, John wrote:
So, to recap, if I set my postfix server to send direct via DNS, it may, or masy not, be logged by my ISP, depending on their nosiness.
For incoming mail, I use Freeparking (http://www.freeparking.co.uk/) to redirect to my own DNS server. Does this bypass my ISP or not?
Everything passes through your ISP, that's where your internet connection is. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Ken, On Friday 02 June 2006 06:28, Ken Schneider wrote:
On Fri, 2006-06-02 at 14:15 +0100, John wrote:
So, to recap, if I set my postfix server to send direct via DNS, it may, or masy not, be logged by my ISP, depending on their nosiness.
For incoming mail, I use Freeparking (http://www.freeparking.co.uk/) to redirect to my own DNS server. Does this bypass my ISP or not?
Everything passes through your ISP, that's where your internet connection is.
It really bears emphasizing that there's a distinction between relaying email (it's a store-and-forward distribution mechanism) and transmitting information (email or otherwise) directly to a peer who is also the ultimate recipient of that information. In the former, the originating SMTP client (your email program) connects to an SMTP server and sends the message (all messages) which is then forwarded to the destination SMTP server by that intermediate server. In the latter, the only computers that handle the data between the originator and its final recipient are routers. This is still a kind of store-and-forward, but it's at the network level (IP), not the application level (SMTP). So while there are computers involved that are not owned or managed by the people at the endpoints of the communication even in the latter case, they deal with packets in isolation and far more of them, and don't generally have a lot of mass storage attached, so logging at that locus is not likely, at least not today and not until something forces the ISP and networking backbone companies to put a lot more hardware resources into the Internet's hardware infrastructure than they now need to. That something would probably be a law.
-- Ken Schneider
Randall Schulz -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 14:15, John wrote:
So, to recap, if I set my postfix server to send direct via DNS, it may, or masy not, be logged by my ISP, depending on their nosiness.
If you send your email "direct" is must still pass through processing stages at your ISP. At the very least, it will pass through their routers and gateways, any one of which can interfere in various ways with the connection. As an example, some ISPs will block outgoing smtp connections unless they originate in their own email servers as a way to fight spam relays. Realistically, an ISP is not going to trawl through every connection to extract detailed info about it - the [amount of data | £cost] is just unmanagable. If you are in the UK, then the law provides for your ISP to be forced to hold your data, but that would only be practical in cases where a person was already under physical surveillance and monitoring - again, the quantity of data is prohibitive for it to be used for blanket monitoring. On the other hand, an individual who serves his own mail may fall foul of the act if they cannot produce logs on request.
For incoming mail, I use Freeparking (http://www.freeparking.co.uk/) to redirect to my own DNS server. Does this bypass my ISP or not?
If you mean that Freeparking sets your MX record to point at your local mail server, then it bypasses your ISP to the extent that your incoming mail does not get collected on their servers, but passes through their routers and gateways on its way to you. If you mean that Freeparking receives your mail and you collect it from them then you have only shifted the issue to a different company. Dylan -- "The man who strikes first admits that his ideas have given out." (Chinese Proverb) -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:
And the funny thing is that if I wanted to contact my nogoodnick buddies, I would choose to use other than port 25. Maybe their evil smtp daemon is listening on port 666 (evil, don't ya know).
So, that's why Doom uses port 666. ;-) -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
If I elect to use my server with its DNS capability to send the mail 'direct', even though I still need the ISP to give me an internet connection, they have nothing to log.
Is my understanding correct? I think the only way to keep your privacy would be to use encryption. But that poses a problem for those receiving and sending you mail. Since
John wrote: they would have to start using encrypted emails themselves. Something which I think would be cool to do but I think it's too hard to implement. -- Regards Kenneth Aar -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 11:59, Kenneth Aar, Grafikern.no wrote:
John wrote:
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
No ISP will keep copies of mail sent the amount of data would cost a fortune to store, for example the ISP I work for relays 30 million + emails per day, every day that's thousands of terabytes/year. We keep copies of the headers for a few months but even that is a lot of data, no-one ever looks at it unless we get a specific request from the Police. I wouldn't worry about someone spying on you or recording what you do, the shear volume of the data that can be collected makes it unusable as nothing could ever sift through all that data at the same rate it's collected. Matthew -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Matthew Stringer wrote:
On Friday 02 June 2006 11:59, Kenneth Aar, Grafikern.no wrote:
John wrote:
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
No ISP will keep copies of mail sent the amount of data would cost a fortune to store, for example the ISP I work for relays 30 million + emails per day, every day that's thousands of terabytes/year. We keep copies of the headers for a few months but even that is a lot of data, no-one ever looks at it unless we get a specific request from the Police.
I wouldn't worry about someone spying on you or recording what you do, the shear volume of the data that can be collected makes it unusable as nothing could ever sift through all that data at the same rate it's collected.
Used to be the case, but no longer. Here in the states, the NSA has been installing carnivore-style boxes in many of the biggest ISPs. They just sit there and suck up the data for later analysis. They even claim they can reconstruct VoIP calls from the rtp traffic. Encryption is the _only_ way to ensure privacy (and even that's only for a certain amount of time). I also recommend going with smaller ISPs. Most of us would tell the goons to take a hike if they showed up here, whereas the high powered CEOs only see the potential for more government contracts and weakly roll over. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
John wrote:
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
If I elect to use my server with its DNS capability to send the mail 'direct', even though I still need the ISP to give me an internet connection, they have nothing to log.
If you're worried about email security, you might want to consider encryption. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 03:02 am, John wrote:
Can someone please clarify the following:
If I use my ISP to send email, they log it and keep the record for years.
Probably not "years" but they do keep the record.
If I elect to use my server with its DNS capability to send the mail 'direct', even though I still need the ISP to give me an internet connection, they have nothing to log. Is my understanding correct?
Not necessarily. They will log the outgoing transmission on port 25. That is the typical email port used for sending email. If you're worried about security, I'd highly recommend Cotse - www.cotse.net Cotse does not keep any backups whatsoever and have no log of your usage. In addition to secure email, you get http proxy usage, ftp proxy usage and many other services. In fact I use Cotse for most of my junk emails, they even provide an expiring email format which I can use an addres which will expire after a certian time. -- kai - www.perfectreign.com www.livebeans.com - the new NetBeans community 43...for those who require slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything. -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
At 12:42 PM 6/2/2006 -0700, kai wrote: /snip/
If you're worried about security, I'd highly recommend Cotse - www.cotse.net
Cotse does not keep any backups whatsoever and have no log of your usage. In addition to secure email, you get http proxy usage, ftp proxy usage and many other services.
In fact I use Cotse for most of my junk emails, they even provide an
expiring
email format which I can use an addres which will expire after a certian time. -- kai - /snip/
If Kai is using this site to send junk emails, and he is promoting it, why would anyone want to use it? --dm -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/354 - Release Date: 6/1/2006 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 04:45 pm, Doug McGarrett wrote:
At 12:42 PM 6/2/2006 -0700, kai wrote: /snip/
If you're worried about security, I'd highly recommend Cotse - www.cotse.net
Cotse does not keep any backups whatsoever and have no log of your usage. In addition to secure email, you get http proxy usage, ftp proxy usage and many other services.
In fact I use Cotse for most of my junk emails, they even provide an
expiring
email format which I can use an addres which will expire after a certian time. -- kai -
/snip/
If Kai is using this site to send junk emails, and he is promoting it, why would anyone want to use it?
Nah, I send my junk emails to this list. This is an example.
-- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.1/354 - Release Date: 6/1/2006
Since when is AVG available on *nix? :P -- k -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 21:42, kai wrote:
In fact I use Cotse for most of my junk emails
Are you pleading guilty? In many countries, you are dangerously close to confessing to a felony here. Choose your words with caution -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 04:57 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Friday 02 June 2006 21:42, kai wrote:
In fact I use Cotse for most of my junk emails
Are you pleading guilty? In many countries, you are dangerously close to confessing to a felony here. Choose your words with caution
Say what? Guilty of what? I can't use a throwaway email account? /me very confused! I use the auto-expiring email to sign up on sites and whatnot where I don't want junk emails coming to me after I've registered. For example, I used it yesterday to sign up for some contacts offer. After a month, the email will be invalid and I won't get any spam from that offer. -- k -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Saturday 03 June 2006 06:18, kai wrote:
On Friday 02 June 2006 04:57 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Friday 02 June 2006 21:42, kai wrote:
In fact I use Cotse for most of my junk emails
Are you pleading guilty? In many countries, you are dangerously close to confessing to a felony here. Choose your words with caution
Say what? Guilty of what? I can't use a throwaway email account?
/me very confused!
I use the auto-expiring email to sign up on sites and whatnot where I don't want junk emails coming to me after I've registered. For example, I used it yesterday to sign up for some contacts offer. After a month, the email will be invalid and I won't get any spam from that offer.
OK, that just shows the value of being careful with your wording. Your previous mail made it sound like you used them for sending spam -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Saturday 03 June 2006 04:19 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Saturday 03 June 2006 06:18, kai wrote:
On Friday 02 June 2006 04:57 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Friday 02 June 2006 21:42, kai wrote:
In fact I use Cotse for most of my junk emails
Are you pleading guilty? In many countries, you are dangerously close to confessing to a felony here. Choose your words with caution
Say what? Guilty of what? I can't use a throwaway email account?
/me very confused!
I use the auto-expiring email to sign up on sites and whatnot where I don't want junk emails coming to me after I've registered. For example, I used it yesterday to sign up for some contacts offer. After a month, the email will be invalid and I won't get any spam from that offer.
OK, that just shows the value of being careful with your wording. Your previous mail made it sound like you used them for sending spam
Well, some may consider this to be spam, but no. I only sing the song, not send it. -- k -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
I used to work for an ISP before recently moving over to a UNIX position at a bank. This was not a huge ISP by any means, but rather a speciality ISP owned by one of the largest ISP's in the US. I can testify that we did NOT log customer's email as many have stated. It sits in the spool until it is successfully sent and then it's 'gone'. Come to think of it, there's only one place where they COULD retrieve your sent mail after it's out - the full backups made of the servers' data that are kept for a couple months at a time. But where I worked, it was a pain to have them retrieve tapes that were removed from the robot for even important data, I highly doubt they would be pulling them to scour through spools of people's worthless emails. As far as you running your own server (if your port 25 isn't blocked), or using a different server other than your ISP's, there was no log kept of anything like this, nor any traffic whatsoever. On the other hand, anything is possible. Typically email and most web traffic is not encrypted and COULD be sniffed and logged. But why waste the resources? -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
On Friday 02 June 2006 22:56, Warren Crigger wrote:
On the other hand, anything is possible. Typically email and most web traffic is not encrypted and COULD be sniffed and logged. But why waste the resources?
Maybe because the contracts have nine zeros before the decimal point? Carl -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
Carl Hartung wrote:
On Friday 02 June 2006 22:56, Warren Crigger wrote:
On the other hand, anything is possible. Typically email and most web traffic is not encrypted and COULD be sniffed and logged. But why waste the resources?
Maybe because the contracts have nine zeros before the decimal point?
Carl
count me in :-) -- Hans Krueger hanskrueger@adelphia.net registered Linux user 289023 411024 -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
participants (18)
-
Anders Johansson -
Carl Hartung -
Carlos E. R. -
Doug McGarrett -
Dylan -
Hans Krueger -
James Knott -
John -
kai -
Ken Schneider -
Kenneth Aar, Grafikern.no -
Leendert Meyer -
Matthew Stringer -
Per Jessen -
Randall R Schulz -
Roger Oberholtzer -
suse＠rio.vg -
Warren Crigger