On 18 November 2015 at 11:18, buhorojo wrote:

On 18/11/15 07:46, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I don't use Leap42.1 except on my laptop as something to experiment with.

Hi There seems a lot of doubt about using leap. As novices, we see it as taking over from the opensuse we were used to. There seems no alternative. If you want opensuse it has to be leap from now on.

It is worrying members here who know what they are talking about are being cautious about using it. Our teacher just told us a story about opensuse 11 which contained an experimental versions but no one knew about it. Is this the same with leap?

Leap 42.1 is not a beta version Leap 42.1 is a final product of a stable regular release While Basil is very vocal, it's important to recognise that his voice does not reflect the intention of those contributors working on Leap, nor does it necessarily reflect the opinions of the majority of users of openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/11/15 22:17, Richard Brown wrote:

On 18 November 2015 at 11:18, buhorojo wrote:

...

On 18/11/15 07:46, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I don't use Leap42.1 except on my laptop as something to experiment with.

Hi There seems a lot of doubt about using leap. As novices, we see it as taking over from the opensuse we were used to. There seems no alternative. If you want opensuse it has to be leap from now on.

It is worrying members here who know what they are talking about are being cautious about using it. Our teacher just told us a story about opensuse 11 which contained an experimental versions but no one knew about it. Is this the same with leap? Leap 42.1 is not a beta version

Leap 42.1 is a final product of a stable regular release

While Basil is very vocal, it's important to recognise that his voice does not reflect the intention of those contributors working on Leap, nor does it necessarily reflect the opinions of the majority of users of openSUSE

If you notice I simply mention that I do not use Leap 42.1 but have it installed on my laptop to experiment with - which is the usual advice - but using other terminology - given to people when they ask questions about a new release of openSUSE. That usual advice has always been to wait for a while while the new release irons out its wrinkles before using it on a production machine. Stating what I said contains no hints of any wrongdoing or lack of expertise of those programmers who made Leap possible. As far as whether or not to use Leap is totally at the discretion of any user: whether they use Leap on their production machines immediately or wait a while while the wrinkles are ironed out it totally and absolutely up to them and I, nor anyone else, can influence their decisions. The only sway which can influence their actions is common sense. BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.0-4 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 18 Nov 2015 12:17:14 Richard Brown wrote:

On 18 November 2015 at 11:18, buhorojo wrote:

...

On 18/11/15 07:46, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I don't use Leap42.1 except on my laptop as something to experiment with.

Hi There seems a lot of doubt about using leap. As novices, we see it as taking over from the opensuse we were used to. There seems no alternative. If you want opensuse it has to be leap from now on.

It is worrying members here who know what they are talking about are being cautious about using it. Our teacher just told us a story about opensuse 11 which contained an experimental versions but no one knew about it. Is this the same with leap?

Leap 42.1 is not a beta version

Leap 42.1 is a final product of a stable regular release

While Basil is very vocal, it's important to recognise that his voice does not reflect the intention of those contributors working on Leap, nor does it necessarily reflect the opinions of the majority of users of openSUSE

i think you are being over sensitive to comments made by very experienced commentators in these forums and seeing things that are just not there. If people feel they cannot sometimes be robust in comments, then you get the feeling censorship is being enacted. Everybody has an off day when they word an email in a bad way, please show me the person that hasn't. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 18 Nov 2015 14:49:15 Richard Brown wrote:

On 18 November 2015 at 14:16, ianseeks wrote:

...

On Wednesday 18 Nov 2015 12:17:14 Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 18 November 2015 at 11:18, buhorojo wrote:

...

On 18/11/15 07:46, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I don't use Leap42.1 except on my laptop as something to experiment with.

Hi There seems a lot of doubt about using leap. As novices, we see it as taking over from the opensuse we were used to. There seems no alternative. If you want opensuse it has to be leap from now on.

It is worrying members here who know what they are talking about are being cautious about using it. Our teacher just told us a story about opensuse 11 which contained an experimental versions but no one knew about it. Is this the same with leap?

Leap 42.1 is not a beta version

Leap 42.1 is a final product of a stable regular release

While Basil is very vocal, it's important to recognise that his voice does not reflect the intention of those contributors working on Leap, nor does it necessarily reflect the opinions of the majority of users of openSUSE

i think you are being over sensitive to comments made by very experienced commentators in these forums and seeing things that are just not there. If people feel they cannot sometimes be robust in comments, then you get the feeling censorship is being enacted. Everybody has an off day when they word an email in a bad way, please show me the person that hasn't.

I'm not trying to censor Basil, but yes, I do want to counter his often negative perspective with my own, and where appropriate and when I feel comfortable doing so also do my best to reflect the broader perspectives I see in our community

...

i agree with you. I can't see anything in what you have said that could have caused that comment from Richard.

Well I can pick out a few examples that give me some concern

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-11/msg00111.html - inciting baseless FUD

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-11/msg00371.html - discouraging users from using a perfectly well tested and supported upgrade path

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-11/msg00373.html

Generally speaking, the trend of comments I'm seeing from Basil could be described to have a theme against the direction of travel of the Project. That's fine, different opinions are welcome, but I get worried when they become baseless advice that effect users. And this thread is a perfect example of such an impact.

I couldn't see anything in any of those links worth worrying about.

So lets cycle back to the original point of this thread, Buhorojo quoting Basil and citing that as grounds for concern about Leap, because Basils comments imply that Leap 42.1 isn't good enough for him/is buggy/whatever

His comment upthread doubles down on this point, suggesting that it's common sense that people do not upgrade right away, because new releases are going to be full of bugs.

Thats sensible, you don't upgrade your working system until you've proved the new one is ready for you. And its been common knowledge over the years of software development that version 1 of anything is risky, not out of malice but a fact of life in software.

And yet, despite having all these opinions which he is entitled to (fair enough) and is very keen to share with everyone..I can't find a single bug report in Leap from Basil, or involving Basil, or otherwise related to Basil [1]

So I think my effort to make it clear that Basil's opinion is not universal, and is possibly lacking a concrete basis, is both fair & justified. It's not personal, just as Basil is entitled to his opinion, I should be entitled to mine

Yes, everyone should have an opinion and be able to voice it. Wrong opinions can always be corrected with reasonable people. I think everyone would be very happy for you to exclude trolls because they are definitely not helpful.

- R

[1] https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/buglist.cgi?classification=openSUSE&email1=bl chupin%40iinet.net.au&emailassigned_to1=1&emailcc1=1&emaillongdesc1=1&emailq a_contact1=1&emailreporter1=1&emailtype1=substring&list_id=2737347&order=Imp ortance&product=openSUSE%20Distribution&query_format=advanced&version=Leap%2 042.1&version=Leap%2042.1%20Milestone1&version=Leap%2042.1%20Milestone2&vers ion=Leap%2042.1%20RC1%201

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 6:09 PM, buhorojo wrote:

On 18/11/15 16:00, ianseeks wrote:

...

On Wednesday 18 Nov 2015 14:49:15 Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 18 November 2015 at 14:16, ianseeks wrote:

...

On Wednesday 18 Nov 2015 12:17:14 Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 18 November 2015 at 11:18, buhorojo wrote:

...

On 18/11/15 07:46, Basil Chupin wrote: > > I don't use Leap42.1 except on my laptop as something to experiment > with.

Hi There seems a lot of doubt about using leap. As novices, we see it as taking over from the opensuse we were used to. There seems no alternative. If you want opensuse it has to be leap from now on.

It is worrying members here who know what they are talking about are being cautious about using it. Our teacher just told us a story about opensuse 11 which contained an experimental versions but no one knew about it. Is this the same with leap?

Leap 42.1 is not a beta version

Leap 42.1 is a final product of a stable regular release

While Basil is very vocal, it's important to recognise that his voice does not reflect the intention of those contributors working on Leap, nor does it necessarily reflect the opinions of the majority of users of openSUSE

i think you are being over sensitive to comments made by very experienced commentators in these forums and seeing things that are just not there. If people feel they cannot sometimes be robust in comments, then you get the feeling censorship is being enacted. Everybody has an off day when they word an email in a bad way, please show me the person that hasn't.

I'm not trying to censor Basil, but yes, I do want to counter his often negative perspective with my own, and where appropriate and when I feel comfortable doing so also do my best to reflect the broader perspectives I see in our community

...

i agree with you. I can't see anything in what you have said that could have

caused that comment from Richard.

Well I can pick out a few examples that give me some concern

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-11/msg00111.html - inciting baseless FUD

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-11/msg00371.html - discouraging users from using a perfectly well tested and supported upgrade path

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-11/msg00373.html

Generally speaking, the trend of comments I'm seeing from Basil could be described to have a theme against the direction of travel of the Project. That's fine, different opinions are welcome, but I get worried when they become baseless advice that effect users. And this thread is a perfect example of such an impact.

I couldn't see anything in any of those links worth worrying about.

...

So lets cycle back to the original point of this thread, Buhorojo quoting Basil and citing that as grounds for concern about Leap, because Basils comments imply that Leap 42.1 isn't good enough for him/is buggy/whatever

His comment upthread doubles down on this point, suggesting that it's common sense that people do not upgrade right away, because new releases are going to be full of bugs.

Thats sensible, you don't upgrade your working system until you've proved the new one is ready for you. And its been common knowledge over the years of software development that version 1 of anything is risky, not out of malice but a fact of life in software.

...

And yet, despite having all these opinions which he is entitled to (fair enough) and is very keen to share with everyone..I can't find a single bug report in Leap from Basil, or involving Basil, or otherwise related to Basil [1]

So I think my effort to make it clear that Basil's opinion is not universal, and is possibly lacking a concrete basis, is both fair & justified. It's not personal, just as Basil is entitled to his opinion, I should be entitled to mine

Yes, everyone should have an opinion and be able to voice it. Wrong opinions can always be corrected with reasonable people. I think everyone would be very happy for you to exclude trolls because they are definitely not helpful.

Thanks everyone I think the thing about version 1 of anything is a good one. It's not just here either. At school we are not allowed windows 10 until the service pack 1 is out. As it's up to us to be able to justify our choice of opensuse, the leap version has come at just the wrong time as we've only just proven that 13.2 does the job. We're sure that it will be fine as the only other repository we need is packman but still... ATM we argue that if leap has regular updates then that will count as a windows service pack and we can go ahead.

Leap is supposed to get routine security patches. That should be happening now. About a year from now Leap 42.2 should come out. That should be similar to a full service pack. I expect to be on Leap before a year from now, but I haven't made the jump yet. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* buhorojo [11-18-15 18:11]: [muuuuccchhhhh quoting removed ... ]

I think the thing about version 1 of anything is a good one.

*Except* as version numbers run on openSUSE, they are *meaningless* except to denote another different collection of applications. Version XX.2 will be different, but not necessarily better, sounder, more secure, less apt to break, (put anything else here that you can imagine). Version numbers for openSUSE only denote *differences* which usually are not mutually compatible.

It's not just here either. At school we are not allowed windows 10 until the service pack 1 is out.

Windows XXX (put any number here) is not linux, but appears to be trying to come closer to linux by very devious and aimless routes.

As it's up to us to be able to justify our choice of opensuse, the leap version has come at just the wrong time as we've only just proven that 13.2 does the job.

You can pick yer pizen, 13.1 -> 13.2 -> leap42.1 -> leap-next But remember that "1" is just a number, a place holder whose meaning is unrelated to anything except the version after the previous version. If you care to, you can search the archives and find supportive statements. The *notion* that 1 is worse than 2 is a figment of imagination. openSUSE! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/11/15 13:15, Greg Freemyer wrote:

................ You are out of date. In the new world:

Leap 42.1 is a first release that correlates with SLES 12 (a first release).

As SLES 12 gets service packs, Leap 42.2, etc. will be released.

Leap will stay in the 42.x series until SLES 13 is released. At that time Leap 43.1 will be released.

You mean when it loses its "42" tag it will cease to be "The answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything"???? -- Robin K Wellington "Harbour City" New Zealand -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed 18 Nov 2015 07:15:37 PM CST, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* buhorojo [11-18-15 18:11]: [muuuuccchhhhh quoting removed ... ]

...

I think the thing about version 1 of anything is a good one.

*Except* as version numbers run on openSUSE, they are *meaningless* except to denote another different collection of applications. Version XX.2 will be different, but not necessarily better, sounder, more secure, less apt to break, (put anything else here that you can imagine).

Version numbers for openSUSE only denote *differences* which usually are not mutually compatible.

...

It's not just here either. At school we are not allowed windows 10 until the service pack 1 is out.

Windows XXX (put any number here) is not linux, but appears to be trying to come closer to linux by very devious and aimless routes.

...

As it's up to us to be able to justify our choice of opensuse, the leap version has come at just the wrong time as we've only just proven that 13.2 does the job.

You can pick yer pizen, 13.1 -> 13.2 -> leap42.1 -> leap-next But remember that "1" is just a number, a place holder whose meaning is unrelated to anything except the version after the previous version.

If you care to, you can search the archives and find supportive statements. The *notion* that 1 is worse than 2 is a figment of imagination. openSUSE!

Patrick,

You are out of date. In the new world:

Leap 42.1 is a first release that correlates with SLES 12 (a first release).

As SLES 12 gets service packs, Leap 42.2, etc. will be released.

Leap will stay in the 42.x series until SLES 13 is released. At that time Leap 43.1 will be released.

Greg Hi It's SLE 12 SP1 hence the .1 == SP1 as opposed to the SLE 12 initial release (SP0) many moons ago... ;)

-- Cheers Malcolm °¿° LFCS, SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 12 | GNOME 3.10.1 | 3.12.48-52.27-default up 5:01, 3 users, load average: 0.51, 0.49, 0.51 CPU AMD A4-5150M @ 2.70GHz | GPU Radeon HD 8350G -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 1:37 AM, buhorojo wrote:

On 19/11/15 02:40, Malcolm wrote:

...

On Wed 18 Nov 2015 07:15:37 PM CST, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* buhorojo [11-18-15 18:11]: [muuuuccchhhhh quoting removed ... ]

...

I think the thing about version 1 of anything is a good one.

*Except* as version numbers run on openSUSE, they are *meaningless* except to denote another different collection of applications. Version XX.2 will be different, but not necessarily better, sounder, more secure, less apt to break, (put anything else here that you can imagine).

Version numbers for openSUSE only denote *differences* which usually are not mutually compatible.

...

It's not just here either. At school we are not allowed windows 10 until the service pack 1 is out.

Windows XXX (put any number here) is not linux, but appears to be trying to come closer to linux by very devious and aimless routes.

...

As it's up to us to be able to justify our choice of opensuse, the leap version has come at just the wrong time as we've only just proven that 13.2 does the job.

You can pick yer pizen, 13.1 -> 13.2 -> leap42.1 -> leap-next But remember that "1" is just a number, a place holder whose meaning is unrelated to anything except the version after the previous version.

If you care to, you can search the archives and find supportive statements. The *notion* that 1 is worse than 2 is a figment of imagination. openSUSE!

Patrick,

You are out of date. In the new world:

Leap 42.1 is a first release that correlates with SLES 12 (a first release).

As SLES 12 gets service packs, Leap 42.2, etc. will be released.

Leap will stay in the 42.x series until SLES 13 is released. At that time Leap 43.1 will be released.

Greg

Hi It's SLE 12 SP1 hence the .1 == SP1 as opposed to the SLE 12 initial release (SP0) many moons ago... ;)

Hi Yeah.OK. Our task is to convince our superiors that 13.2 was a good choice. They come back to us saying that now it's all changed because they look at a new name and new numbers. They can decide on windows because it's what their superiors in turn tell them. The only say we have is what we use for our projects. Understandably they are concerned now we've thrown this at them.

From the last message here, I think we're onto a winner in that we can go back with feedback that this version not only pertains to opensuse but it is indeed already a service pack. What they'll now tell us is that 12 is a version behind 13. To those who know nothing about computers, version numbers are everything.

Is this a good argument that we'll be able to support?

I wouldn't necessarily make that argument. Less than 25% of Leap comes from SLES 12 (SP1). That portion should be the quality you imply. That is the core infrastructure, systemd, etc. The other 75% is what one would have expected from a 13.3 release. (ie. from Factory just like 13.3 would have been). Embedded in the 75% the equivalent of KDE 5. That is a major KDE release and Leap 42 is the first non-Tumbleweed release from openSUSE to have it. As implied, I would give Leap a month or more to stabalize, then start evaluating it to see if it is a good update candidate for you. The openSUSE security update support lifetime is 2 releases + 2 months. That means 13.2 should be supported until 2 months after Leap 42.2 is released (around Nov 2016). There should be no urgency to move off of 13.2. In fact 13.1 is an extended support release and is expected to be supported for at least another yearl, so a lot of openSUSE users will be sticking with 13.1 for a while yet. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Evergreen#Supported_distributions Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am 19.11.2015 um 21:59 schrieb John Andersen:

On 11/19/2015 09:06 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

Less than 25% of Leap comes from SLES 12 (SP1). That portion should be the quality you imply. That is the core infrastructure, systemd, etc.

Then why was Leap created? There can't be much in the way of cost savings involved here.

Because it was never meant to save costs? There are different reasons why Leap was created. Yes, also to save a bit of work but that includes volunteer work. The old style of doing openSUSE releases on one side and SLES releases on the other side was not very successful IMHO. I'm not going to repeat why I'm supporting this move.

Also, How are you measuring this percentage? Simply number of rpms? Lines of code? What exactly?

Probably on source package level. Create your own measurements based on this list: https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file/openSUSE:Leap:42.1/00Meta/looku... It shows you on source package level where it was taken from. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/19/2015 01:37 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

So SLES packages being 25% of Leap represents a pretty high percentage of the packages that could be available from SLES ;)

That fact alone is one of the more enlightening facts posted here. SLES is a server product, most people running SLES don't even run a graphical user interface, or if they do, they just use what ever it comes with as a default. Yet the link I posted does show a boat load of packages for KDE and Gnome, although its not clear if any of them are installed by default. (I haven't installed SLES since version 9.) -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/11/15 00:22, Richard Brown wrote:

SLES includes and installs GNOME 3.10 by default. The KDE packages you see in the list you provided are base libraries, allowing SLES to run KDE applications - KDE is not included in SLES 12

In Leap, the openSUSE GNOME Team chose to use GNOME 3.16 instead of SLE's GNOME 3.10 - that probably accounts for a few hundred of the packages that Leap could have had from SLE but does not.

And so, going back to the point of Leap and stability - a huge part, I'd argue the core part, of an operating systems 'stability' comes from it's base system

But First what do I mean by 'stability'? I do not just mean 'does it work?' - that's RELIABILITY, and that's a trait shared by both Tumbleweed and Leap already, and validated every day by openQA

I'd define that STABILITY includes reliability, but has the additional attributes of 'it doesn't change dramatically'. You implement it, it works (reliability) and it keeps working the same way until a specific time when an upgrade comes around - and even when that upgrade does come around, the transition is smooth. That's what I mean when I talk about STABILITY.

Tumbleweed and Leap both provide reliability in spades (and I really do disagree with those people suggesting it's going to take a while for Leap to 'settle' down - it's settled, we wouldn't have released it if it wasn't ready, and while it isn't perfect, the amount of bugs reported so far are very low, of limited severity, and they're being fixed very quickly)

Tumbleweed doesn't promise much in terms of my above definition of 'Stability' - it moves at the pace of contribution, that's fast, it's meant to be fast. In Tumbelweed, we make no promises about keeping things similar. If upstreams do major changes, we reflect it as soon as we can do so reliably. We do our best to make the transitions always smooth as possible, but Tumbleweed offers the latest and greatest in a reliable way, and if we provided more in terms of 'stability' in Tumbleweed, we wouldn't be offering the newest upstream developments to our users, so it would be pretty darn useless as a rolling release

Leap on the otherhand, has it's mission of being the more STABLE (as defined in this post) counterpart to Tumbleweed. And with a shared Base System with SLE, we are starting with a Core that it Enterprise stable, the highest grade of stable, perfectly matching the definition I have above.

Ontop of that, our community have done a wonderful job of picking and choosing from the whole FOSS ecosystem, the best versions of the packages available to accomplish Leaps goal of being the stable equivalent to Tumbleweed. GNOME 3.16 is a fine example of decisions being made to ensure that those software stacks in Leap 42.1 are tried, tested, proven, and should provide a stable starting point for Leap 42.1 to move on from.

And so, while I understand the reluctance of those who haven't jumped onto Leap yet, I also think it is misguided. Leap 42.1 is a quantum shift (a Quantum Leap? [1]) from the previous openSUSE releases, and represent the first openSUSE releases which have actually set out with a clear goal to be the stable choice for its users. It's built properly, tested properly, maintained properly, compared to the previous approach which, despite our best efforts, was often a lot more happen-stance and impacted by external factors - We did the best we could, with the tools, talent, and upstream timings available to us..but doing a time-based regular release always offering the latest of everything each 8 months resulted in us being totally at the mercy of the upstream projects and the quality (of lack thereof) of whatever they pushed out, no matter how close it was to our release date.

With the Leap model, we're much more empowered to be in control of our own destiny than we ever were. Even the parts inherited from SLE, openSUSE decides what to do use, or not. Which versions of an upstream stack to include? openSUSE decides which version, or not. Of course this still means working with and alongside upstream projects, but if their latest version isn't good enough, we don't need to use it. The mission is to provide a stable distribution to our users, and we no longer are beholden to that always including the latest of everything - Tumbleweed takes care of that for those users who want that.

And so I'd argue anyone clinging to 13.1 or 13.2 should reconsider if it's really the best choice for them, or maybe now's the time to take the Leap, and start reaping the benefits of the work everyone has done to make Leap 42.1 as good as it is - It's only going to get better from here.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjK9GJMBpt0 Phew!

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 25/11/15 11:19, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 20/11/15 17:56, buhorojo wrote:

...

On 20/11/15 00:22, Richard Brown wrote:

...

SLES includes and installs GNOME 3.10 by default. The KDE packages you see in the list you provided are base libraries, allowing SLES to run KDE applications - KDE is not included in SLES 12

In Leap, the openSUSE GNOME Team chose to use GNOME 3.16 instead of SLE's GNOME 3.10 - that probably accounts for a few hundred of the packages that Leap could have had from SLE but does not.

And so, going back to the point of Leap and stability - a huge part, I'd argue the core part, of an operating systems 'stability' comes from it's base system

But First what do I mean by 'stability'? I do not just mean 'does it work?' - that's RELIABILITY, and that's a trait shared by both Tumbleweed and Leap already, and validated every day by openQA

I'd define that STABILITY includes reliability, but has the additional attributes of 'it doesn't change dramatically'. You implement it, it works (reliability) and it keeps working the same way until a specific time when an upgrade comes around - and even when that upgrade does come around, the transition is smooth. That's what I mean when I talk about STABILITY.

Tumbleweed and Leap both provide reliability in spades (and I really do disagree with those people suggesting it's going to take a while for Leap to 'settle' down - it's settled, we wouldn't have released it if it wasn't ready, and while it isn't perfect, the amount of bugs reported so far are very low, of limited severity, and they're being fixed very quickly)

Tumbleweed doesn't promise much in terms of my above definition of 'Stability' - it moves at the pace of contribution, that's fast, it's meant to be fast. In Tumbelweed, we make no promises about keeping things similar. If upstreams do major changes, we reflect it as soon as we can do so reliably. We do our best to make the transitions always smooth as possible, but Tumbleweed offers the latest and greatest in a reliable way, and if we provided more in terms of 'stability' in Tumbleweed, we wouldn't be offering the newest upstream developments to our users, so it would be pretty darn useless as a rolling release

Leap on the otherhand, has it's mission of being the more STABLE (as defined in this post) counterpart to Tumbleweed. And with a shared Base System with SLE, we are starting with a Core that it Enterprise stable, the highest grade of stable, perfectly matching the definition I have above.

Ontop of that, our community have done a wonderful job of picking and choosing from the whole FOSS ecosystem, the best versions of the packages available to accomplish Leaps goal of being the stable equivalent to Tumbleweed. GNOME 3.16 is a fine example of decisions being made to ensure that those software stacks in Leap 42.1 are tried, tested, proven, and should provide a stable starting point for Leap 42.1 to move on from.

And so, while I understand the reluctance of those who haven't jumped onto Leap yet, I also think it is misguided. Leap 42.1 is a quantum shift (a Quantum Leap? [1]) from the previous openSUSE releases, and represent the first openSUSE releases which have actually set out with a clear goal to be the stable choice for its users. It's built properly, tested properly, maintained properly, compared to the previous approach which, despite our best efforts, was often a lot more happen-stance and impacted by external factors - We did the best we could, with the tools, talent, and upstream timings available to us..but doing a time-based regular release always offering the latest of everything each 8 months resulted in us being totally at the mercy of the upstream projects and the quality (of lack thereof) of whatever they pushed out, no matter how close it was to our release date.

With the Leap model, we're much more empowered to be in control of our own destiny than we ever were. Even the parts inherited from SLE, openSUSE decides what to do use, or not. Which versions of an upstream stack to include? openSUSE decides which version, or not. Of course this still means working with and alongside upstream projects, but if their latest version isn't good enough, we don't need to use it. The mission is to provide a stable distribution to our users, and we no longer are beholden to that always including the latest of everything - Tumbleweed takes care of that for those users who want that.

And so I'd argue anyone clinging to 13.1 or 13.2 should reconsider if it's really the best choice for them, or maybe now's the time to take the Leap, and start reaping the benefits of the work everyone has done to make Leap 42.1 as good as it is - It's only going to get better from here.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjK9GJMBpt0 Phew!

WOW! Talk about being lucky!

Buhorojo, I hear that Richard (Brown) is an absolute stickler for having people adhere to the netiquette rules applicable to the mailing lists or else he gets someone on the Board to move to have sanctions applied on a person for violating the netiquette rules.

So, beware as one of the netiquette requirements is not to quote a complete, long, message and then simply add a single word/line response such as "Phew!" as you just did above.

That, in simple terms, is a NO-NO.

"Listen, don't mention the war. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right." -- Basil Fawlty, Fawlty Towers :-D .

BC

PS FOR CARLOS!

WHAT THE HECK *IS* YOUR REAL E-MAIL ADDRESS? I HAVE SOME 4 OR 5 FOR YOU - SO WHICH ONE SHOULD I REALLY USE?

Hi Not sure if this is aimed at us. We're new to mailing lists so if we've done something wrong then PLEASE tell us. We quoted the message ?. Is that is what we must do (or not do)? If we have offended then we apologise. Thanks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/25/2015 02:47 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 25/11/2015 11:45, buhorojo a écrit :

...

Not sure if this is aimed at us. We're new to mailing lists so if we've done something wrong then PLEASE tell us. We quoted the message ?. Is that is what we must do (or not do)?

you have to trim the message to reduce it to the part you answer to (as I did right now).

It's easy on a computer and may be very difficult on a smartphone

If we have offended then we apologise.

...

Thanks

not really a problem, but if the message is longer than my screen, I usually don't read it :-)

Must... control.... self...... Ach! Can't do it! Isn't this a use case for Top Posting? Works for me... Regards. Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 25 November 2015 at 11:45, buhorojo wrote:

Hi Not sure if this is aimed at us. We're new to mailing lists so if we've done something wrong then PLEASE tell us. We quoted the message ?. Is that is what we must do (or not do)? If we have offended then we apologise. Thanks

You have not offended. Reducing the quoted sections down to the minimum appropriate is good practice, but no one is going to get in serious trouble for the occasional breach of netiquette rules. Basil, please do not scare newcomers to our mailinglists. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 25/11/15 21:45, buhorojo wrote:

On 25/11/15 11:19, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 20/11/15 17:56, buhorojo wrote:

...

On 20/11/15 00:22, Richard Brown wrote:

...

SLES includes and installs GNOME 3.10 by default. The KDE packages you see in the list you provided are base libraries, allowing SLES to run KDE applications - KDE is not included in SLES 12

In Leap, the openSUSE GNOME Team chose to use GNOME 3.16 instead of SLE's GNOME 3.10 - that probably accounts for a few hundred of the packages that Leap could have had from SLE but does not.

And so, going back to the point of Leap and stability - a huge part, I'd argue the core part, of an operating systems 'stability' comes from it's base system

But First what do I mean by 'stability'? I do not just mean 'does it work?' - that's RELIABILITY, and that's a trait shared by both Tumbleweed and Leap already, and validated every day by openQA

I'd define that STABILITY includes reliability, but has the additional attributes of 'it doesn't change dramatically'. You implement it, it works (reliability) and it keeps working the same way until a specific time when an upgrade comes around - and even when that upgrade does come around, the transition is smooth. That's what I mean when I talk about STABILITY.

Tumbleweed and Leap both provide reliability in spades (and I really do disagree with those people suggesting it's going to take a while for Leap to 'settle' down - it's settled, we wouldn't have released it if it wasn't ready, and while it isn't perfect, the amount of bugs reported so far are very low, of limited severity, and they're being fixed very quickly)

Tumbleweed doesn't promise much in terms of my above definition of 'Stability' - it moves at the pace of contribution, that's fast, it's meant to be fast. In Tumbelweed, we make no promises about keeping things similar. If upstreams do major changes, we reflect it as soon as we can do so reliably. We do our best to make the transitions always smooth as possible, but Tumbleweed offers the latest and greatest in a reliable way, and if we provided more in terms of 'stability' in Tumbleweed, we wouldn't be offering the newest upstream developments to our users, so it would be pretty darn useless as a rolling release

Leap on the otherhand, has it's mission of being the more STABLE (as defined in this post) counterpart to Tumbleweed. And with a shared Base System with SLE, we are starting with a Core that it Enterprise stable, the highest grade of stable, perfectly matching the definition I have above.

Ontop of that, our community have done a wonderful job of picking and choosing from the whole FOSS ecosystem, the best versions of the packages available to accomplish Leaps goal of being the stable equivalent to Tumbleweed. GNOME 3.16 is a fine example of decisions being made to ensure that those software stacks in Leap 42.1 are tried, tested, proven, and should provide a stable starting point for Leap 42.1 to move on from.

And so, while I understand the reluctance of those who haven't jumped onto Leap yet, I also think it is misguided. Leap 42.1 is a quantum shift (a Quantum Leap? [1]) from the previous openSUSE releases, and represent the first openSUSE releases which have actually set out with a clear goal to be the stable choice for its users. It's built properly, tested properly, maintained properly, compared to the previous approach which, despite our best efforts, was often a lot more happen-stance and impacted by external factors - We did the best we could, with the tools, talent, and upstream timings available to us..but doing a time-based regular release always offering the latest of everything each 8 months resulted in us being totally at the mercy of the upstream projects and the quality (of lack thereof) of whatever they pushed out, no matter how close it was to our release date.

With the Leap model, we're much more empowered to be in control of our own destiny than we ever were. Even the parts inherited from SLE, openSUSE decides what to do use, or not. Which versions of an upstream stack to include? openSUSE decides which version, or not. Of course this still means working with and alongside upstream projects, but if their latest version isn't good enough, we don't need to use it. The mission is to provide a stable distribution to our users, and we no longer are beholden to that always including the latest of everything - Tumbleweed takes care of that for those users who want that.

And so I'd argue anyone clinging to 13.1 or 13.2 should reconsider if it's really the best choice for them, or maybe now's the time to take the Leap, and start reaping the benefits of the work everyone has done to make Leap 42.1 as good as it is - It's only going to get better from here.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjK9GJMBpt0 Phew!

WOW! Talk about being lucky!

Buhorojo, I hear that Richard (Brown) is an absolute stickler for having people adhere to the netiquette rules applicable to the mailing lists or else he gets someone on the Board to move to have sanctions applied on a person for violating the netiquette rules.

So, beware as one of the netiquette requirements is not to quote a complete, long, message and then simply add a single word/line response such as "Phew!" as you just did above.

That, in simple terms, is a NO-NO.

"Listen, don't mention the war. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right." -- Basil Fawlty, Fawlty Towers :-D .

BC

PS FOR CARLOS!

WHAT THE HECK *IS* YOUR REAL E-MAIL ADDRESS? I HAVE SOME 4 OR 5 FOR YOU - SO WHICH ONE SHOULD I REALLY USE?

Hi Not sure if this is aimed at us. We're new to mailing lists so if we've done something wrong then PLEASE tell us. We quoted the message ?. Is that is what we must do (or not do)? If we have offended then we apologise. Thanks

Don't worry about it. My fault for the bit about the PS. You have nothing to be sorry for. But just remember that Patrick is the network cop and if he comes down hard on you the.......oomph! light out! :-D . BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.0-17 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/11/15 00:49, Richard Brown wrote:

...

...

On 18 November 2015 at 11:18, buhorojo wrote:

...

On 18/11/15 07:46, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I don't use Leap42.1 except on my laptop as something to experiment with. Hi There seems a lot of doubt about using leap. As novices, we see it as taking over from the opensuse we were used to. There seems no alternative. If you want opensuse it has to be leap from now on.

It is worrying members here who know what they are talking about are being cautious about using it. Our teacher just told us a story about opensuse 11 which contained an experimental versions but no one knew about it. Is this the same with leap? Leap 42.1 is not a beta version

Leap 42.1 is a final product of a stable regular release

While Basil is very vocal, it's important to recognise that his voice does not reflect the intention of those contributors working on Leap, nor does it necessarily reflect the opinions of the majority of users of openSUSE i think you are being over sensitive to comments made by very experienced commentators in these forums and seeing things that are just not there. If

On Wednesday 18 Nov 2015 12:17:14 Richard Brown wrote: people feel they cannot sometimes be robust in comments, then you get the feeling censorship is being enacted. Everybody has an off day when they word an email in a bad way, please show me the person that hasn't. I'm not trying to censor Basil, but yes, I do want to counter his often negative perspective with my own, and where appropriate and when I feel comfortable doing so also do my best to reflect the broader

On 18 November 2015 at 14:16, ianseeks wrote: perspectives I see in our community

I am so glad that you do want to counter what you seem to perceive my negative perspective "with [your] own, and where appropriate ....." . It's great to learn that you have negative perspectives.

i agree with you. I can't see anything in what you have said that could have caused that comment from Richard.

Well I can pick out a few examples that give me some concern

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-11/msg00111.html - inciting baseless FUD

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-11/msg00371.html - discouraging users from using a perfectly well tested and supported upgrade path

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-11/msg00373.html

Generally speaking, the trend of comments I'm seeing from Basil could be described to have a theme against the direction of travel of the Project. That's fine, different opinions are welcome, but I get worried when they become baseless advice that effect users. And this thread is a perfect example of such an impact.

So lets cycle back to the original point of this thread, Buhorojo quoting Basil and citing that as grounds for concern about Leap, because Basils comments imply that Leap 42.1 isn't good enough for him/is buggy/whatever

His comment upthread doubles down on this point, suggesting that it's common sense that people do not upgrade right away, because new releases are going to be full of bugs.

Richard, *please* do not make me think of you as a less than an intelligent person. If you want to cast aspersions on my mentality then please do so as I really do not expect such from other people with whom I occasionally cross paths. It has been common sense for many, many years not to immediately use a newly released version of a "distro" on a production system until the bugs have been ironed out; this may take some weeks or months. If you don't know this then you should not be in the position of Chairman of the Board of openSUSE. I did NOT state that the release was "full of bugs". If you are silly enough to come to this conclusion then I have to question your analytical skills. You must be aware, as someone who has been a programmer (are you are programmer, btw?), that *no* piece of software is without "bugs", and that a newly created piece of software potentially has more "bugs" than a person has living on his/her body and which means that it would take some time for programmers to eliminate those bugs. You have been aware of this, right? If so then why are you making the comments above about what I stated!? Your comments above appear to indicate that you are either totally unaware of the real world or are trying to fool some people into thinking that your version of reality is correct.

And yet, despite having all these opinions which he is entitled to (fair enough) and is very keen to share with everyone..I can't find a single bug report in Leap from Basil, or involving Basil, or otherwise related to Basil [1]

And so -- what is your argument? Correct, I have not made a bug report about Leap. But so what? Does one have to make a bug report without his/her comment/observation/view before it is considered? Do you, Richard, trawl through bug reports before taking seriously what people are saying about anything-openSUSE? Only asking because you have made me ask you this question.

So I think my effort to make it clear that Basil's opinion is not universal, and is possibly lacking a concrete basis, is both fair & justified. It's not personal, just as Basil is entitled to his opinion, I should be entitled to mine

Of course, Richard. You are entitled to your opinion. Everybody here, and in the Community, accepts this. You have one voice to express yourself here as anyone else as a subscriber to the openSUSE mail lists.

- R

[1]https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/buglist.cgi?classification=openSUSE&email1=blchupin%40iinet.net.au&emailassigned_to1=1&emailcc1=1&emaillongdesc1=1&emailqa_contact1=1&emailreporter1=1&emailtype1=substring&list_id=2737347&order=Importance&product=openSUSE%20Distribution&query_format=advanced&version=Leap%2042.1&version=Leap%2042.1%20Milestone1&version=Leap%2042.1%20Milestone2&version=Leap%2042.1%20RC1%201

Ah! Now this is most interesting! I clicked on this URL only to have some time fly by while Firefox went looking for this URL. Eventually it found this URL, and when it did I found that it showed that I - blchupin@iinte.net.au - had not submitted any bug reports about Leap 42.1. What a discovery! But what I also found there is this quote: ""History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. -- Abba Eban (1915-)" But when I go to look up the information about this Abba Eban I find that Abba Eban was "...born Aubrey Solomon Meir Eban; later adopted Abba Solomon Meir Eban;[1] 2 February 1915 – 17 November 2002) was an Israeli diplomat and politician, and a scholar of the Arabic and Hebrew languages." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abba_Eban Eban expired in 2002 -- which the URL does not mention (but why is it quoting Eban to begin with?). But more importantly, Eban is coming out with rubbish and his quote should be replaced with something sensible. Something like, "History repeats itself because nobody listens". BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.0-17 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/18/2015 04:18 AM, buhorojo wrote:

It is worrying members here who know what they are talking about are being cautious about using it. Our teacher just told us a story about opensuse 11 which contained an experimental versions but no one knew about it. Is this the same with leap?

Holy %4it... Yes 11.0 released May, 2008? contained the experimental "Release" of KDE 4.0.4 from which the black-screen of death rapidly surpassed the blue-screen of death. God help us if leap is that way.... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org