By Matthew Broersma ZDNet (UK) October 29, 2002, 9:09 AM PT Linux distributor SuSE is hoping to get desktop users to switch to its operating system with a new edition of its software specifically designed for office workers--including software that allows it to run Microsoft Office and other Windows applications. In January SuSE will launch, through its resellers, SuSE Linux Office Desktop, a distribution aimed at small to medium-sized enterprises. The package includes SuSE Linux 8.1 and applications designed to ease Windows users' transition to Linux. Read the rest of the article at: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-963703.html Looks, like someone's busting a move. Good luck guys! Curtis
Including Crossover is completely wrong decigion - it is unstable
and has problems with fonts (at least with cyrillic ;-) ).
IMHO, this desktop project will fail completely.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Rey"
On Wed, 2002-10-30 at 11:26, Dmitry Melekhov wrote:
Including Crossover is completely wrong decigion - it is unstable and has problems with fonts (at least with cyrillic ;-) ). IMHO, this desktop project will fail completely.
Not sure it will fail but its the wrong approach IMHO. It will take a community effort backed by UnitedLinux, RedHat, Mandrake and even IBM to put together a true wine compatibility layer for windows apps so distros do not have to rely on other companies to give people the safety net of running windows apps. I am afraid that too much of the progress in regards to wine is going to end up being owned by transgaming and CrossOver (please correct me if I am wrong this is a perception only). Even with OpenOffice there are people who are going to need run win-only programs like Visio and MS Project as two examples. Linux distros need to stop thinking of the total package only being the OS layer. Like other OS makers we need to start thinking about the final product in regards to three layers: OS layer -- kernel, shell, gnu utilities and services GUI layer -- X, window managers, desktop and user apps. Compatibility layer -- windows compatibility through wine. Some of this with the move toward desktop Linux is being addressed but we as a community have to be careful not to base our efforts too heavily on proprietary solutions to our problems. -- Johnathan Bailes BAE Systems ESI "UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things." - Doug Gwyn ---
On 10/31/2002 01:03 AM, Johnathan Bailes wrote:
Not sure it will fail but its the wrong approach IMHO. It will take a community effort backed by UnitedLinux, RedHat, Mandrake and even IBM to put together a true wine compatibility layer for windows apps so distros do not have to rely on other companies to give people the safety net of running windows apps.
After having been an OS/2 user for several years before SuSE linux, I can tell you that this idea is also non workable. IBM had Win/OS2, which was more stable than native Windows 3.1 (I guess that wasn't too hard ;-) ), but Microsoft will constantly change the goal post to make something break. A better idea is to build native apps that outperform M$. That is something M$ can do nothing about, but fear. -- Joe & Sesil Morris New Tribes Mission Email Address: Joe_Morris@ntm.org Web Address: http://www.mydestiny.net/~joe_morris Registered Linux user 231871 God said, I AM that I AM. I say, by the grace God, I am what I am.
On Fri, 2002-11-01 at 07:04, Joe & Sesil Morris (NTM) wrote:
After having been an OS/2 user for several years before SuSE linux, I can tell you that this idea is also non workable. IBM had Win/OS2, which was more stable than native Windows 3.1 (I guess that wasn't too hard ;-) ), but Microsoft will constantly change the goal post to make something break. A better idea is to build native apps that outperform M$. That is something M$ can do nothing about, but fear.
That should be the real emphasis on effort sure. However, every successful OS has had some sort of compatibility layer to help people make the move to the new OS. Max OSX has Mac 9 compatibility. Win 95 had DOS compatibility. I know this is different in a sense because linux would have to emulate not an older version of its own software base but another companies software base. This is different and I do understand this. However, it is necessary to wean users from their MS ways as well as make up the time until Mr. Project matches MS Project's capability or DIA matches Visio's feature set for examples that go beyond the OpenOffice can open Word files debate. The failure of OS/2 which I worked on for a time as well was due first to bad marketing and a failure to produce applications in native format at all. IBM's Office suite was about the only commercial native app I even remember. The ad campaign gave no clue about what Warp could really do and why anyone should buy it. I swear sometimes the best way to make a software project fail is to give to IBM. Lotus Notes and its success is the only example I can think of where IBM from a business sense got it right in terms of placing the product to corporate america. Plus, at that time, people in corporate IT were still more afraid of IBM than they were MS. linux since already has plenty of wonderful native apps available for the platform. It was not planned but it turned out in my opinion to be the best formula for success. Get the native apps going and then focus on integrating a compatibility layer to reel in more users. -- Johnathan Bailes BAE Systems ESI "UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever things." - Doug Gwyn ---
* Johnathan Bailes (johnathan.bailes@esi.baesystems.com) [021101 04:21]: -> ->The failure of OS/2 which I worked on for a time as well was due first ->to bad marketing and a failure to produce applications in native format ->at all. IBM's Office suite was about the only commercial native app I ->even remember. The ad campaign gave no clue about what Warp could ->really do and why anyone should buy it. I swear sometimes the best way ->to make a software project fail is to give to IBM. Lotus Notes and its ->success is the only example I can think of where IBM from a business ->sense got it right in terms of placing the product to corporate ->america. Plus, at that time, people in corporate IT were still more ->afraid of IBM than they were MS. Don't forget one of the biggest reasons for OS/2 failure. Microsoft strongarmed them into not supporting and not advertizing OS/2 and Lotus for one year after Windows 95/Office 95 was released. If they didn't do this then they would be raped on the cost for these pieces of software. There were a great many commerical applications for OS/2 but they just didn't get much limelight. The only reason Microsoft put out Windows 3.1.1 was to break compatiblity with Win-OS/2. :) The above was read into evidence at the 1998 Anti-Trust trial. So I would say that the 800lb guerilla twisted the arm of the 400lb guerilla. -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org Tell me what you believe.. I tell you what you should see.
On Wednesday 30 October 2002 11:26, Dmitry wrote:
Including Crossover is completely wrong decigion
I agree. Let's stop wasting time trying to make Windows apps run on Linux and put the resources into developing quality native apps. *************************************************** Powered by SuSE Linux 8.0 Professional KDE 3.0.0 KMail 1.4 This is a Microsoft-free computer Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net ***************************************************
On Wednesday 30 October 2002 12:45, Bryan Tyson wrote:
On Wednesday 30 October 2002 11:26, Dmitry wrote:
Including Crossover is completely wrong decigion
I agree. Let's stop wasting time trying to make Windows apps run on Linux and put the resources into developing quality native apps.
*************************************************** Powered by SuSE Linux 8.0 Professional KDE 3.0.0 KMail 1.4 This is a Microsoft-free computer
Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net ***************************************************
"...[P]ut the resources into developing quality native apps". I couldn't agree more. The Linux/Open Source community has shown time and time again that when need be the talent is more than sufficient to tackle and conqueror any task or challenge. I fell it's more than high time that the commitee decided what is needed. Oh, seems that a fair percentage have already done so,... that being a comprehensive and user friendly office suite. We keep hearing it over and over again. M$ Office compatibility. Like it or not boys and girls the world has been force into a quasi-standard by M$. It's like being a heroin addict. You can't just go cold turkey with out a methadone program and trained medical staffing to supervise the recovery. The same, in an off-hand way, is true about all the M$ Office minions. They will need a stop gap and hand holding in order to make the switch. And like any addict, once clean and sober, they almost never go back. We have the talent, we have the means. The question is.... do we have the will and desire to accomlish this task and succeed? Cheers, Curtis.
On Wednesday 30 October 2002 12:45, Bryan Tyson wrote:
On Wednesday 30 October 2002 11:26, Dmitry wrote:
Including Crossover is completely wrong decigion
I agree. Let's stop wasting time trying to make Windows apps run on Linux and put the resources into developing quality native apps.
*************************************************** Powered by SuSE Linux 8.0 Professional KDE 3.0.0 KMail 1.4 This is a Microsoft-free computer
Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net ***************************************************
"...[P]ut the resources into developing quality native apps".
I couldn't agree more. The Linux/Open Source community has shown time and time again that when need be the talent is more than sufficient to tackle and conqueror any task or challenge. I fell it's more than high time that the commitee decided what is needed. Oh, seems that a fair percentage have already done so,... that being a comprehensive and user friendly office suite. We keep hearing it over and over again. M$ Office compatibility. Like it or not boys and girls the world has been force into a quasi-standard by M$. It's like being a heroin addict. You can't just go cold turkey with out a methadone program and trained medical staffing to supervise the recovery. The same, in an off-hand way, is true about all the M$ Office minions. They will need a stop gap and hand holding in order to make the switch. And like any addict, once clean and sober, they almost never go back.
We have the talent, we have the means. The question is.... do we have the will and desire to accomlish this task and succeed?
Cheers, Curtis. There are two applications forcing me to also use the Windows OS: Adobe Photoshop and Girotel, an talabanking application of my Dutch bank, which is not available for Linux. Allowing me to use those programs through something
On Wednesday 30 October 2002 18:51, Curtis Rey wrote: like Wine on Linux would be very welcome, as long as the native Linux version is not available. -- Frits Wüthrich
On Wed, 2002-10-30 at 23:58, Frits Wüthrich wrote:
There are two applications forcing me to also use the Windows OS: Adobe Photoshop and Girotel, an talabanking application of my Dutch bank, which is not available for Linux. Allowing me to use those programs through something like Wine on Linux would be very welcome, as long as the native Linux version is not available. -- Frits Wüthrich
Hi Frits, seems there is one application less to worry about: Girotel. I've been happily using the Internet version for over a year now. The only reason I can think of not wanting to use the web-version is maybe security. For me that doesn't count because I never have any money on this account (nor on any other account) ;-) And for Photoshop: you must be a professional "imager", dealing with printshops etc. when you decided the Gimp wasn't "there" yet? regards, Marcel
On Wednesday 30 October 2002 22:24, Marcel Broekman wrote:
On Wed, 2002-10-30 at 23:58, Frits Wüthrich wrote:
There are two applications forcing me to also use the Windows OS: Adobe Photoshop and Girotel, an talabanking application of my Dutch bank, which is not available for Linux. Allowing me to use those programs through something like Wine on Linux would be very welcome, as long as the native Linux version is not available. -- Frits Wüthrich
Hi Frits,
seems there is one application less to worry about: Girotel. I've been happily using the Internet version for over a year now. The only reason I can think of not wanting to use the web-version is maybe security. For me that doesn't count because I never have any money on this account (nor on any other account) ;-) And for Photoshop: you must be a professional "imager", dealing with printshops etc. when you decided the Gimp wasn't "there" yet?
regards, Marcel Marcel,
I don't use the web based Girotel, because it doesn't download my account transfers and stores that on my PC, as far as I understand that from what I read from the documentation. That is the big advantage for me of using the PC version. I think the web based version does the same thing as my Barclays web based online banking does. Gimp is nice, but is not there yet, it doesn't handle 16 bit colour depth yet, and I found a few other issues as well. Groetjes uit de UK, Frits Wüthrich
On Thu, 2002-10-31 at 00:58, Frits Wüthrich wrote:
Marcel,
I don't use the web based Girotel, because it doesn't download my account transfers and stores that on my PC, as far as I understand that from what I read from the documentation. That is the big advantage for me of using the PC version. I think the web based version does the same thing as my Barclays web based online banking does.
Gimp is nice, but is not there yet, it doesn't handle 16 bit colour depth yet, and I found a few other issues as well.
Groetjes uit de UK,
Frits Wüthrich
Actually you can download your data, only it doesn't do so automatically. I haven't done this myself but saw the option (for me it's enough to get it all in an envelope once a month). I guess you can use this downloaded data in a spreadsheet. Might be worth trying and maybe I'll do that, just for the fun of it. mazzel, uit Amsterdam.
On Wed, 2002-10-30 at 10:45, Bryan Tyson wrote:
On Wednesday 30 October 2002 11:26, Dmitry wrote:
Including Crossover is completely wrong decigion
I agree. Let's stop wasting time trying to make Windows apps run on Linux and put the resources into developing quality native apps.
I agree, but trust me an awful lot of people won't use it unless the application they use happens to say Microsoft Office. If you were a world dictator and ordered MSFT to remove MS Office in its current form and use StarOffice/OpenOffice in its current form I would lay bets that people would probably rave about it being the best yet... *Hopefully* those people coming over will experiment with Open Source offerings also and decide on using those instead of Ms Office. The biggest shame imho is WebSphere Homepage builder for Linux, real Wine hack labelled as Linux software. Most unfortunate as I was interested in it. Matt
participants (9)
-
Ben Rosenberg -
Bryan Tyson -
Curtis Rey -
Dmitry Melekhov -
Frits Wüthrich -
Joe & Sesil Morris (NTM) -
Johnathan Bailes -
Marcel Broekman -
Matthew Johnson