[opensuse] openSUSE Weekly News, Issue 38

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Jan-Simon Möller

12 Sep 2008 12 Sep '08

16:07

We are pleased to announce: Issue 38 of openSUSE Weekly News is out! [0] In this week's issue: * Last Call for openSUSE Board Candidates * openSUSE KDE Bug Squashing Days (20-21 September) * Board election * openSUSE 11.0 survey * KDE in openSUSE 11.1 and beyond [0] http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Weekly_News/38 Last weeks issue: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Weekly_News/37 Have a lot of fun! -- Jan-Simon Möller -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Larry Stotler

12 Sep 12 Sep

18:07

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Jan-Simon Möller wrote:

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We are pleased to announce: Issue 38 of openSUSE Weekly News is out! [0]

Tell Michael Loeffler he needs to learn how to read the survey results. He states: KDE4 is already adopted by kind of 40% out of all KDE users When the results clearly show slightly less than 40% using KDE3 and slightly less than 30% using KDE4. If we're gonna promote something, the numbers need to back it up. Andreas made the same comment the other day, so where are these different numbers coming from? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

ne...

13 Sep 13 Sep

12:10

On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 19:07, Larry Stotler wrote:

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On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Jan-Simon Möller wrote:

...
We are pleased to announce: Issue 38 of openSUSE Weekly News is out! [0]

Tell Michael Loeffler he needs to learn how to read the survey results. He states:

KDE4 is already adopted by kind of 40% out of all KDE users

When the results clearly show slightly less than 40% using KDE3 and slightly less than 30% using KDE4.

If we're gonna promote something, the numbers need to back it up. Andreas made the same comment the other day, so where are these different numbers coming from? From the survey: Response % Response Count KDE3 38.5 4007 KDE4 29.8 3109

Total KDE count 7116 % of KDE Users that use KDE4 3109*100/(4007+3109) = 43.69% approx I think Michael Loeffler is owed an apology by Larry Stotler. What do you think? ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Gilda Radner - "I base most of my fashion taste on what doesn't itch." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

14:45

On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 8:10 AM, ne... wrote:

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% of KDE Users that use KDE4 3109*100/(4007+3109) = 43.69% approx

I think Michael Loeffler is owed an apology by Larry Stotler. What do you think?

Actually, then I feel that he shouldn't have worded it that way. I've seen openSUSE devs pushing KDE4 way too much when it is still not ready. It was obvious before 11.0 and it still is now, that more of the TOTAL userbase prefers KDE3 and I stand by that. I may have misread what he said, but it still shows that over 1/2 of KDE users PREFER KDE3 and that's the part that a lot of KDE4 promoters seem to miss. KDE4 will be adoped as it becomes feature rich and more stable. I have repeastedly stated that openSUSE's KDE4 was the best available at the time, but that doesn't mean that KDE4 was ready to be promoted like it has. It became more stable after the update to 4.1, which happened not long after 11.0 was released, which is why I have suggested that the 11.1 release be delayed to include 4.2. I'd rather see a delay so that a more solid, stable product can be included instead of seeing a huge amount of effort being put into backporting the 4.2 stuff into 4.1. I dunno, but that's my opinion. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

17:59

On Saturday 13 September 2008 09:45:02 am Larry Stotler wrote:

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On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 8:10 AM, ne... wrote:

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% of KDE Users that use KDE4 3109*100/(4007+3109) = 43.69% approx

I think Michael Loeffler is owed an apology by Larry Stotler. What do you think?

Actually, then I feel that he shouldn't have worded it that way.

:-D You never give up. That is a spirit, but this time, guhvies@gmail.com just applied math to Michael's statement, nothing more, and the result is 43.69%.

...

I've seen openSUSE devs pushing KDE4 way too much when it is still not ready. It was obvious before 11.0 and it still is now, that more of the TOTAL userbase prefers KDE3 and I stand by that. I may have misread what he said, but it still shows that over 1/2 of KDE users PREFER KDE3 and that's the part that a lot of KDE4 promoters seem to miss.

Taking loud outcry on openSUSE mail lists, and around Internet, which taken without emotions is not without any merit, I would expect no more than 5-10% of people, those that always hang on the newest, will use it. Any number above tells that something in KDE4 act as strong attraction despite all negative PR. Out of 7116 (100%) KDE users that took part in the survey there is 4007 (43.7%) that use KDE4. It is way more that expected 5-10%. Correlating that to result of "How you are involved with openSUSE": No, I am not involved. 74.5% 7640 Editing/creating of Wiki 4.2% 431 Creating software packages 2.7% 276 Creating software patches 1.3% 132 Bug reporting 13.2% 1354 Partic. on ML or IRC 7.8% 796 Use a build services 5.6% 578 Partic. in the oS forums 13.1% 1341 tells that large silent user base was invloved in the survey, not many active members, supporters or disputers, and the result is pretty much realistic. The 93.9% used Linux before. So fear for the new users is not very well supported. Looking this numbers: KDE3 38.5% 4007 KDE4 29.8% 3109 GOME 26.9% 2799 xfce 1.1% 117 Console 1.4% 148 Other 2.3% 238 tells that KDE4 cuts better than GNOME, and if KDE4 is not given to the users, openSUSE will miss the same number of users as with GNOME, Xfce and console ;-) There is of course more interesting hidden gems for those that can corelate different answers, so I bet that openSUSE pro part (Novell guys) have pretty good idea what they do.

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KDE4 will be adoped as it becomes feature rich and more stable.

As you can see above it already surpassed some others, so it is adopted ;-)

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I have repeastedly stated that openSUSE's KDE4 was the best available at the time, but that doesn't mean that KDE4 was ready to be promoted like it has. It became more stable after the update to 4.1, which happened not long after 11.0 was released, which is why I have suggested that the 11.1 release be delayed to include 4.2. I'd rather see a delay so that a more solid, stable product can be included instead of seeing a huge amount of effort being put into backporting the 4.2 stuff into 4.1. I dunno, but that's my opinion.

It seems there is something that I can't convey properly. Negative PR will not help to make transition as fast as possible, and procrastinating has the same effect as delaying visit to a dentist. Whether we are old or new users, have we business that doesn't like changes or not, let put our differences in opinions aside, they will not matter in a year anyway, and push developers with bugs and tests to go on faster. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

18:53

On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

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You never give up. That is a spirit, but this time, guhvies@gmail.com just applied math to Michael's statement, nothing more, and the result is 43.69%.

Nope I dont, but then again, you have to stand for what you feel is right. I don't feel that they should have pushed KDE4 as hard as they did(and the fact that they released 11.0 with only a KDE4 livecd instead of having both shows that is what happened). Unfortunately, I wasn't able to be a part of the while 11.0 process until really late. I have endeavored to make sure that doesn't happen again. I wuld have pushed for more KDE3 if I could have.

...

Taking loud outcry on openSUSE mail lists, and around Internet, which taken without emotions is not without any merit, I would expect no more than 5-10% of people, those that always hang on the newest, will use it. Any number above tells that something in KDE4 act as strong attraction despite all negative PR.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have included KDE4 nor am I saying that KDE4 is not wihout it's merits. I'm saying that even now, a majoirty of the users still prefer KDE3 over KDE4 even with the all the bugfixes and addons. We've had this discussion so many times. KDE4 is just not up to par for the Majority of KDE users, as that survey showed. Which is why we KDE3 users have pushed so hard to make sure that we will have the choice in 11.1. I for one would prefer that KDE4 had delivered on it's promises of faster, leaner and better, but for me it has failed to do so. I do sincerely hope that that changes. I have never said that KDE4 isn't worth it. I've said that I disagree with how KDE4 was pushed out and that the design choices for KDE4 are so radically different from KDE3 that a lot of people have been unhappy with KDE4. KDE4 has been slower than KDE3, unstable, and missing a lot of things as well as the fact that a lot of KDE3 apps haven't been ported over to qt4 even now.

...

tells that KDE4 cuts better than GNOME, and if KDE4 is not given to the users, openSUSE will miss the same number of users as with GNOME, Xfce and console ;-)

Hey, I have a console box sitting right here beside me now :-) . It's the customer backup server for my work and it's the first linux box that has been installed(hopefully of many). As for gnome, SuSE has always been more partial to KDE.

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As you can see above it already surpassed some others, so it is adopted ;-)

Sorry, I should have said it will gain wider adoption.....

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Negative PR will not help to make transition as fast as possible, and procrastinating has the same effect as delaying visit to a dentist.

It's not negative PR, it's a fact. If KDE4 was so "great" then the majority of openSUSE's KDE users would already be using it. The fact that less than half are using KDE4 is what the math shows. KDE4 adoption has picked up, but it's still in the minority.

...

Whether we are old or new users, have we business that doesn't like changes or not, let put our differences in opinions aside, they will not matter in a year anyway, and push developers with bugs and tests to go on faster.

Look, I'm not against KDE4 even though that may have become the perception about me. I'm against how KDE4 was released in a half finished state with lots of features missing and with questionable stability. As a longtime KDE user, I'm not thrilled with a lot of the changes, but I would be happy with it if it was stable, faster, and had most of the features that I use already implemented. I won't even start on the look and feel. Change can be good, but so far, I'm just not impressed with the state of KDE4. I honestly would prefer that I would be able to support and promote it, and when it does become closer to the state that I can actually replace KDE3 with it, then I will support and promote it. Till then, I have to go with what my experience has been, and that has been far from positive. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

22:34

* Larry Stotler [09-13-08 14:54]:

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KDE4 has been slower than KDE3, unstable,

Please support this argument as I have paid close attention to this list and all the anti KDE4 retoric and have yet to see anyone else agree or propose this, but you. All the statements about KDE4 lend to very much attention to removing glut and making it faster, but you continually write about it being the opposite. Were all the developers efforts for naught or is there a perceptual problem here? Somehow the words come to mind, "dead horse". -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

23:31

On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Larry Stotler [09-13-08 14:54]:

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KDE4 has been slower than KDE3, unstable,

Please support this argument as I have paid close attention to this list and all the anti KDE4 retoric and have yet to see anyone else agree or propose this, but you. All the statements about KDE4 lend to very much attention to removing glut and making it faster, but you continually write about it being the opposite. Were all the developers efforts for naught or is there a perceptual problem here?

On identical hardware, KDE4 is slower than KDE3. This hardware includes: Celeron DualCore E1200(running @ 3.2Ghz) with 2GB RAM and ATI X300/128MB Thinkpad A22p P3/1Ghz/256MB with ATI Mobility M3(Rage 128 Pro) 8MB. I have repeatedly noticed that KDE4 is sluggish on this thinkpad. I haven't tried KDE4 on my Desktop recently because I have it apart for drive upgrades( and haven't gotten around to finishing it). And before I get more comments about upgrading the RAM in the Thinkpad, the second slot is bad and I'm stuck at 256MB. KDE3 is fine on it as is. Like I have said before, I don't have an 8800GT or X4850 video card. And, I wn't even get into how bad KDE4 is on my Thinkpad 390X P3/500Mhz/512MB with the Neomagic 256 2.5MB VRAM chip. KDE3 is fast, and I can play XviD encoded movies at 1536 bitrate on it just fine, so why KDE4 is so slow is beyond me. I also don't install Compiz or any of the desktop effects either. As for supporting my arguement, I'm starting to get tired of hearing that. KDE4 is slower on my hardware. That, and the bling, it the biggest reason I don't use it. Every time I fire it up, I logoff and go back to KDE3. As for memory usage, I say a 15MB saving at first with KDE4, but when I came back and checked it after about 30 minute, it was using within 2MB of KDE3 and it had been doing nothing but sitting there with Firefox open and the same pages loaded. So, I just haven't really seen the savings there either. Granted, it's not a big deal on my Desktop with 2GB RAM, but this Thinkpad only has 256MB, so if there are savings, I'd like to see the numbers. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

23:45

Larry Stotler wrote:

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That, and the bling, it the biggest reason I don't use it.

Here's another vote against "eye candy". I want a desktop that clean and functional. I don't want it bogged down with all that extra crap. If it's necessary to include it with KDE 4, then I consider it mandatory that it can be turned off. Otherwise, KDE 4 will also be considered to be so much useless garbage. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

ka1ifq

14 Sep 14 Sep

00:52

On Saturday 13 September 2008 07:45:27 pm James Knott wrote:

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Larry Stotler wrote:

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That, and the bling, it the biggest reason I don't use it.

Here's another vote against "eye candy". I want a desktop that clean and functional. I don't want it bogged down with all that extra crap. If it's necessary to include it with KDE 4, then I consider it mandatory that it can be turned off. Otherwise, KDE 4 will also be considered to be so much useless garbage. --

I agree also!! If the bling is included in the desktop make it an option not required if you choose to use KDE. I like KDE and have used it since I started with suse, I will continue to use it if the bling is optional as I do not feel the need to add a processor just to run the desktop. Mike. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

03:58

On Saturday 13 September 2008 07:52:11 pm ka1ifq wrote:

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I agree also!! If the bling is included in the desktop make it an option not required if you choose to use KDE. I like KDE and have used it since I started with suse, I will continue to use it if the bling is optional as I do not feel the need to add a processor just to run the desktop.

Mike.

Mike, you agree on what? Your next sentence after agreement is conditional based on someone else opinion, based on while ago published version of software in development. You know how far from reality that can be. It is easier to turn it off and on than in was ever in KDE3. You know new architecture that doesn't copy all the "features" of old desktop. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

ka1ifq

04:28

On Saturday 13 September 2008 11:58:24 pm Rajko M. wrote:

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On Saturday 13 September 2008 07:52:11 pm ka1ifq wrote:

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I agree also!! If the bling is included in the desktop make it an option not required if you choose to use KDE. I like KDE and have used it since I started with suse, I will continue to use it if the bling is optional as I do not feel the need to add a processor just to run the desktop.

Mike.

Mike, you agree on what?

Your next sentence after agreement is conditional based on someone else opinion, based on while ago published version of software in development. You know how far from reality that can be.

It is easier to turn it off and on than in was ever in KDE3. You know new architecture that doesn't copy all the "features" of old desktop.

-- Regards, Rajko

You did not post the message I quoted! [QUOTE]

...

Here's another vote against "eye candy". I want a desktop that clean and functional. I don't want it bogged down with all that extra crap. If it's necessary to include it with KDE 4, then I consider it mandatory that it can be turned off. Otherwise, KDE 4 will also be considered to be so much useless garbage. -- [/QUOTE]

I agree with the poster about the 'eye candy' , if included should be able to be turned off, give the user the option. In no way am I slamming opensuse or kde, or I would not be using both. I have a new drive on order so I can compare what I am running now with the new offering (11.0). Regards, Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

15 Sep 15 Sep

05:06

New subject: [opensuse] KDE4 etc

Hi Mike, On Saturday 13 September 2008 11:28:50 pm ka1ifq wrote: ...

...

You did not post the message I quoted!

It was quoted most of it, but in any case I did read all. The point is that listening other is good, but sometimes it is a tricky business. Other can have a bad experience for various reasons that don't apply to your circumstances. Only you know what you want to use and KDE4 might be ready for you, but you can't know that before you try it. You base your opinion on previous post, and poster has no much experience with KDE4, as it removed it few months ago. With software in fast development, it is just not possible to give a good comment after so long period. Point where it can come to misunderstanding is word 'bling'. If bling are desktop effects, they are disabled by default. If you would know that your comment would not speculate that it should be disabled. If bling are new elements of graphic layout than talk about computer resources usage is without point. Every desktop is using CPU for that, and KDE4 doesn't introduce much more in that part. Taking problems with proprietary graphic drivers, it seems that KDE4 is trying to increase graphic adapter processor usage, instead of main CPU, and problems arise when it hits not implemented functions, or buggy parts of the driver, but that is nvidia or ATI problem, and they are working on solution. KDE guys can't do much about it. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

14 Sep 14 Sep

15:49

On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:58 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

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It is easier to turn it off and on than in was ever in KDE3. You know new architecture that doesn't copy all the "features" of old desktop.

Well, I couldn't find it. And I have looked. I couldn't find half the stuff that KDE3 has options for. Did they put it someplace different? Please, let me know where so I can turn it off.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

16:46

On Sunday 14 September 2008 10:49:43 am Larry Stotler wrote:

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On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:58 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

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It is easier to turn it off and on than in was ever in KDE3. You know new architecture that doesn't copy all the "features" of old desktop.

Well, I couldn't find it. And I have looked. I couldn't find half the stuff that KDE3 has options for. Did they put it someplace different? Please, let me know where so I can turn it off....

Main menu > Configure desktop > Desktop It is actually turned off by default - button Desktop effects. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

10:16

On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 19:31 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:

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On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Larry Stotler [09-13-08 14:54]:

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KDE4 has been slower than KDE3, unstable,

Could it be that KDE4 requires a (much) larger footprint than KDE3? So that with only 512MB your system starts swapping... Would explain a lot! (Can't verify here, all my kde4's are at work..) hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

11:36

On Sunday 14 September 2008 05:16:56 am Hans Witvliet wrote:

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On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 19:31 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:

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On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Larry Stotler [09-13-08 14:54]:

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KDE4 has been slower than KDE3, unstable,

Could it be that KDE4 requires a (much) larger footprint than KDE3? So that with only 512MB your system starts swapping... Would explain a lot!

Larry has 256 and 384 MB, depends on machine. In 512 MB you can squeeze both desktops at the same time and run some applications before it starts swapping. We already checked using free, and memory usage seems comparable to KDE3. This requires the latest factory version, as some issues with applications not exiting when window is closed and stray kio_http and kio_file, not exiting at all, are resolved recently. See bug https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=414912 for details. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

15:58

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 7:36 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

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Larry has 256 and 384 MB, depends on machine. In 512 MB you can squeeze both desktops at the same time and run some applications before it starts swapping.

I do have 2 systems with 2GB in them. The Celeron E1200( @ 3.2Ghz) DDR2/800(@ 1Ghz) and an X2 3800+ 939/DDR system(stock speed for now.... :--) ). The Celeron has an ATI X300/128MB and the X2 has an nVidia 5200/128MB. I don't have time at the moment to play around with them tho....(work is way too busy, and have a boy scout trip this coming weekend with my son).

...

We already checked using free, and memory usage seems comparable to KDE3.

Which is disappointing since it was supposed to be better. I need to try to get some time to actually tweak the settings on KDE4 and see what happens.....

...

This requires the latest factory version, as some issues with applications not exiting when window is closed and stray kio_http and kio_file, not exiting at all, are resolved recently.

Not running factory ATM. How much has been backported to 11.0? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

21:18

On Sunday 14 September 2008 10:58:16 am Larry Stotler wrote:

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On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 7:36 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

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Larry has 256 and 384 MB, depends on machine. In 512 MB you can squeeze both desktops at the same time and run some applications before it starts swapping.

I do have 2 systems with 2GB in them. The Celeron E1200( @ 3.2Ghz) DDR2/800(@ 1Ghz) and an X2 3800+ 939/DDR system(stock speed for now.... :--) ). The Celeron has an ATI X300/128MB and the X2 has an nVidia 5200/128MB. I don't have time at the moment to play around with them tho....(work is way too busy, and have a boy scout trip this coming weekend with my son).

Well those both are better than my current.

...

...
We already checked using free, and memory usage seems comparable to KDE3.

Which is disappointing since it was supposed to be better. I need to try to get some time to actually tweak the settings on KDE4 and see what happens.....

Later I found nepomuk running. It has almost the same purpose as beagle, so I have 2 identical serices running. Second, in another mail to Mark Miskulich, I mentioned 2 bugs that are recently fixed, and each increased memory usage.

...

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This requires the latest factory version, as some issues with applications not exiting when window is closed and stray kio_http and kio_file, not exiting at all, are resolved recently.

Not running factory ATM. How much has been backported to 11.0?

When I used Stable repository, there was little or no updates, so I don't think it is much backported. See http://en.opensuse.org/KDE4 for description. The KDE4 factory is now 4.1.1 which has many features that are missing in 4.0.4. including option to disable gimmicks (desktop effects). -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

21:37

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

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Well those both are better than my current.

What card are you running?

...

Later I found nepomuk running. It has almost the same purpose as beagle, so I have 2 identical serices running. Second, in another mail to Mark Miskulich, I mentioned 2 bugs that are recently fixed, and each increased memory usage.

Great. Another useless desktop search. I really think you should be asked if you want to use that stuff instead of it being a default. The KDE3 LiveCD doesn't install Beagle by default which is nice.

...

When I used Stable repository, there was little or no updates, so I don't think it is much backported. See http://en.opensuse.org/KDE4 for description. The KDE4 factory is now 4.1.1 which has many features that are missing in 4.0.4. including option to disable gimmicks (desktop effects).

Well, I installed KDE4 recently on this thinkpad from the OSS repo and got 4.1, so I'm not sure what the status of KDE4 is in 11.0. Maybe one of the devs can shed a light on that..... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

23:24

New subject: [opensuse] KDE4 etc

On Sunday 14 September 2008 04:37:06 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

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On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

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Well those both are better than my current.

What card are you running?

Built in GeForce 6100, but I have FX 5200 in another computer and I know it is better.

...

...
Later I found nepomuk running. It has almost the same purpose as beagle, so I have 2 identical services running. Second, in another mail to Mark Miskulich, I mentioned 2 bugs that are recently fixed, and each increased memory usage.

Great. Another useless desktop search. I really think you should be asked if you want to use that stuff instead of it being a default. The KDE3 LiveCD doesn't install Beagle by default which is nice.

I didn't gave much attention to it, but even if it is YA-UDSE, it is at least written in faster compiled code, not on top of YA byte code engine.

...

...
When I used Stable repository, there was little or no updates, so I don't think it is much backported. See http://en.opensuse.org/KDE4 for description. The KDE4 factory is now 4.1.1 which has many features that are missing in 4.0.4. including option to disable gimmicks (desktop effects).

Well, I installed KDE4 recently on this thinkpad from the OSS repo and got 4.1, so I'm not sure what the status of KDE4 is in 11.0. Maybe one of the devs can shed a light on that.....

Maybe trough update repository, the OSS does not change. zypper if kdebase4 will reveal where it comes from. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

19 Sep 19 Sep

15:28

...

Later I found nepomuk running. It has almost the same purpose as beagle, so I have 2 identical serices running. Second, in another mail to Mark Miskulich, I mentioned 2 bugs that are recently fixed, and each increased memory usage.

Nepomuk was the culprit for me.. and something called strigi or something like that.. I have yet to be able to actually completely remove strigi. I remove it, YAST says it's removed but it still shows up as installed. The strigi/nepomuk crap totally kills my system performance on a 6400+ dual processor. At least it doesn't run by default now (after much tinkering and inventing many new swear words). Once I got those stupid desktop search things killed and installed the latest nVidia binary drivers, KDE4 started working fine (speedwise). I dearly wish that these desktop search tools be optional - or if installed, be OFF by default... then people who are testing out KDE4 and openSUSE can see what the desktop performs like without 99% of CPU being redirected to indexing on startup... nepomuk is like Beagle used to be... a total system resource hog. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

22:04

On Friday 19 September 2008 10:28:36 am Clayton wrote:

...

...
Later I found nepomuk running. It has almost the same purpose as beagle, so I have 2 identical serices running. Second, in another mail to Mark Miskulich, I mentioned 2 bugs that are recently fixed, and each increased memory usage.

Nepomuk was the culprit for me.. and something called strigi or something like that.. ... Once I got those stupid desktop search things killed and installed the latest nVidia binary drivers, KDE4 started working fine (speedwise).

I dearly wish that these desktop search tools be optional - or if installed, be OFF by default...

I don't know how it was before last night update, but nepomuk was disabled in control panel. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton

20 Sep 20 Sep

10:26

...

...
Nepomuk was the culprit for me.. and something called strigi or something like that.. ... Once I got those stupid desktop search things killed and installed the latest nVidia binary drivers, KDE4 started working fine (speedwise).

I dearly wish that these desktop search tools be optional - or if installed, be OFF by default...

I don't know how it was before last night update, but nepomuk was disabled in control panel.

I don't know either since I squashed that little app and removed it a few weeks ago. It is banned from all of my computers... :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mark Misulich

13 Sep 13 Sep

23:36

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Larry Stotler [09-13-08 14:54]:

...
KDE4 has been slower than KDE3, unstable,

Please support this argument as I have paid close attention to this list and all the anti KDE4 retoric and have yet to see anyone else agree or propose this, but you. All the statements about KDE4 lend to very much attention to removing glut and making it faster, but you continually write about it being the opposite. Were all the developers efforts for naught or is there a perceptual problem here?

Somehow the words come to mind, "dead horse".

Hi, I put both kde4.1 and 3.5 on my old laptop that I use for playing around with various systems, at the same time I first installed Opensuse 11.0. I tried each of them out to see how they and 11.0 worked. The computer is a Dell Inspiron 5000 with a PIII 600 and 512 mb ram. When I ran 3.5 on the computer everything ran smooth. When I ran the 4.1 computer started to chug, sometimes freezing and unfreezing when I tried to operate the same programs in kde 4.1 as I ran in kde 3.5 . Maybe there is something more technical involved, but I took it that kde 4.1 required more ram to operate and ran slower on my computer. It seemed similar to the difference in the way that Vista and Suse run on the computer I am using at the moment, Vista runs way slower. Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

23:49

Mark Misulich wrote:

...

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* Larry Stotler [09-13-08 14:54]:

...
KDE4 has been slower than KDE3, unstable,

Please support this argument as I have paid close attention to this list and all the anti KDE4 retoric and have yet to see anyone else agree or propose this, but you. All the statements about KDE4 lend to very much attention to removing glut and making it faster, but you continually write about it being the opposite. Were all the developers efforts for naught or is there a perceptual problem here?

Somehow the words come to mind, "dead horse".

Hi, I put both kde4.1 and 3.5 on my old laptop that I use for playing around with various systems, at the same time I first installed Opensuse 11.0. I tried each of them out to see how they and 11.0 worked. The computer is a Dell Inspiron 5000 with a PIII 600 and 512 mb ram. When I ran 3.5 on the computer everything ran smooth. When I ran the 4.1 computer started to chug, sometimes freezing and unfreezing when I tried to operate the same programs in kde 4.1 as I ran in kde 3.5 . Maybe there is something more technical involved, but I took it that kde 4.1 required more ram to operate and ran slower on my computer. It seemed similar to the difference in the way that Vista and Suse run on the computer I am using at the moment, Vista runs way slower.

Mark

FWIW, I tried KDE 4 on a test computer a while ago, and I couldn't get it off that computer fast enough. While it was an earlier version, if it was any indication of the future of KDE, I want out. KDE 4 will require a considerable improvement before it will see use on my computers. My requirements include all the functionality that's currently in 3.5x and no eye candy crap. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

14 Sep 14 Sep

11:49

On Saturday 13 September 2008 06:36:54 pm Mark Misulich wrote: ...

...

When I ran 3.5 on the computer everything ran smooth. When I ran the 4.1 computer started to chug, sometimes freezing and unfreezing when I tried to operate the same programs in kde 4.1 as I ran in kde 3.5 . ... Mark

See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=414912 and https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=421899 Can you reproduce/check is anything like that in question. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mark Misulich

19 Sep 19 Sep

14:42

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 13 September 2008 06:36:54 pm Mark Misulich wrote: ...

...
When I ran 3.5 on the computer everything ran smooth. When I ran the 4.1 computer started to chug, sometimes freezing and unfreezing when I tried to operate the same programs in kde 4.1 as I ran in kde 3.5 . ... Mark

See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=414912 and https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=421899

Can you reproduce/check is anything like that in question.

Hi Rajko, I looked at the bugs you listed, neither seems to be like what I experienced. The problem with the computer chugging has gone away, I expect because I have been doing updates regularly even though I haven't used kde 4.1 too much. The hand of the developers is evident, something got fixed. There are still flukey things that happen, for example I have a popup window display less than every second after I close the window telling me that I can't use the gstreamer multimedia backend because of some missing dependency. I also can't orient the desktop from left to right. I can only put the kmenu on the right side of the kicker panel. There are more minor issues, but you get the idea; kde4 is getting better but still has various weird problems. It seems only to be slightly slower than kde3 now, taking maybe 1/2 again as much time to work as kde3. Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

22:08

New subject: [opensuse] KDE4 etc

On Friday 19 September 2008 09:42:00 am Mark Misulich wrote:

...

... It seems only to be slightly slower than kde3 now, taking maybe 1/2 again as much time to work as kde3.

I have to find URL of Lubos Lunak KDE blog to see again, but it seems there is some bug in Qt libs that slows down display. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Richard

14 Sep 14 Sep

00:45

On Sat September 13 2008 6:34:08 pm Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Larry Stotler [09-13-08 14:54]:

...
KDE4 has been slower than KDE3, unstable,

Please support this argument as I have paid close attention to this list and all the anti KDE4 retoric and have yet to see anyone else agree or propose this, but you. All the statements about KDE4 lend to very much attention to removing glut and making it faster, but you continually write about it being the opposite. Were all the developers efforts for naught or is there a perceptual problem here?

Somehow the words come to mind, "dead horse".

-- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org

Larry does NOT come across as ANTI KDE4, he comes across as KDE4 devs are prematurely attempting to replace a fucntional desktop environment, KDE3 before KDE4 is ready. He has repeatedly stated that he supports the development of KDE4 and he simply opposes the premature removal of KDE3. And KDE4 *is* slower on my machine at doing most things I attempt and I have plenty of horsepower and memory. I perceive that KDE4 spends a lot of time being pretty and not enough time *doing* the requested job. This ignores also the time lost in figuring out *how* to get it to do what is intuitive in the old, outmoded, ancient KDE3 that still 'just works'. I applaud his dogmatic stance NOT to eliminate KDE4 but to eliminate the premature elimination of KDE3 from the distro. He has repeatedly stated that when it is ready to replace KDE3 people will jump on it (I add) like flies on s**t, but until then don't expect the flies to like vinager. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller

03:29

Richard wrote:

...

On Sat September 13 2008 6:34:08 pm Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* Larry Stotler [09-13-08 14:54]:

...
KDE4 has been slower than KDE3, unstable,

Please support this argument as I have paid close attention to this list and all the anti KDE4 retoric and have yet to see anyone else agree or propose this, but you. All the statements about KDE4 lend to very much attention to removing glut and making it faster, but you continually write about it being the opposite. Were all the developers efforts for naught or is there a perceptual problem here?

Somehow the words come to mind, "dead horse".

-- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org

Larry does NOT come across as ANTI KDE4, he comes across as KDE4 devs are prematurely attempting to replace a fucntional desktop environment, KDE3 before KDE4 is ready. He has repeatedly stated that he supports the development of KDE4 and he simply opposes the premature removal of KDE3. And KDE4 *is* slower on my machine at doing most things I attempt and I have plenty of horsepower and memory. I perceive that KDE4 spends a lot of time being pretty and not enough time *doing* the requested job. This ignores also the time lost in figuring out *how* to get it to do what is intuitive in the old, outmoded, ancient KDE3 that still 'just works'. I applaud his dogmatic stance NOT to eliminate KDE4 but to eliminate the premature elimination of KDE3 from the distro. He has repeatedly stated that when it is ready to replace KDE3 people will jump on it (I add) like flies on s**t, but until then don't expect the flies to like vinager.

Correct! It's also SLOWER (4.1) on ALL my boxen AND clients I tried it on, so it was removed. I have high hopes for it, bit it's just NOT anywhere near ready yet. It MUST be a functionally equal replacement. Fred -- “While addressing the [GOP convention], Sarah Palin criticized Barack Obama for not having enough ‘specifics.’ Obama was reportedly angry about the claim, but didn’t say exactly why.” —Conan O’Brien -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (12)

Clayton
Fred A. Miller
Hans Witvliet
James Knott
Jan-Simon Möller
ka1ifq
Larry Stotler
Mark Misulich
ne...
Patrick Shanahan
Rajko M.
Richard