[opensuse] Re: grub no longer being maintained? so Suse drops support for XFS boot?

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Linda Walsh

12 Jun 2009 12 Jun '09

06:38

Re: "Grub supposedly unable to start if /boot is on xfs partition, So, because grub is broken, XFS is no longer supported as a boot partition by Novell/SuSE. (!)... Sujit Karataparambil wrote:

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This is an Known Issue. Grub hangs when used With XFS. You could Try Lilo instead. But does the same with my experiance.

Weird. I've been booting from xfs with lilo, and more recently, 'grub', from suse 7.x up to 11.1. I haven't any recent probs concerning lilo, but I saw this same type of issue and a solution in Ubuntu's bug database (though they encountered this problem 3 years ago and automatically used a workaround to not corrupt a user's choice of filesystem. The issue was Grub not being able to write to the root directory if it is formatted as an XFS partition. The response was Ubuntu's workaround (maybe openSuSE could figure out how they did this...it is open source...and they could adopt their solution rather than just throwing up their hands and saying they don't support XFS). The Ubuntu installer automatically uses lilo in the case where the root (or boot) file system is XFS. Thus no ever sees the problem grub has with XFS, they simply use the more primitive, but more reliable 'lilo' bootloader. It's a bit weird to see some people at SuSE prefer to work around a bootloader bug by disallowing user-desired file systems, rather than by simply using a bootloader that doesn't have the bug. I would have thought that most people would have simply chosen to Not use a buggy boot-loader and use a more reliable alternative, over disallowing file-systems that are unsupported by the buggy-boot loader. Some folks at Suse must have a real 'thing' for 'grub' to rate it's importance more highly than users' file system choices... But I would really suggest that OpenSuse follow Ubuntu's example -- just use a bootloader that works. Don't limit file-system selection based on the bugs of a bootloader (same would be true if lilo didn't work with some filesystem and grub did...use the combinations that work -- to rigidly disallow anything that grub suggests someone needs to re-examine their priorities. FWIW, though, I _am_ using grub, with XFS...but if grub broke, I'd switch back to lilo in a heartbeat, NOT reformat my boot or root partition to accommodate the bootloader's bugs de jour. -linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Dave Plater

12 Jun 12 Jun

07:00

Linda Walsh wrote:

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Weird. I've been booting from xfs with lilo, and more recently, 'grub', from suse 7.x up to 11.1. I haven't any recent probs concerning lilo, but I saw this same type of issue and a solution in Ubuntu's bug database (though they encountered this problem 3 years ago and automatically used a workaround to not corrupt a user's choice of filesystem.

The issue was Grub not being able to write to the root directory if it is formatted as an XFS partition. The response was Ubuntu's workaround (maybe openSuSE could figure out how they did this...it is open source...and they could adopt their solution rather than just throwing up their hands and saying they don't support XFS).

The Ubuntu installer automatically uses lilo in the case where the root (or boot) file system is XFS. Thus no ever sees the problem grub has with XFS, they simply use the more primitive, but more reliable 'lilo' bootloader.

-linda

I was about to refer you to http://xfs.org/index.php/XFS_FAQ and tell you to read the lilo and xfs boot sections but I see they have changed their tune about grub and say that grub now works as of 0.97 so maybe it will work. Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Heinz Diehl

09:49

New subject: [opensuse] Re: grub no longer being maintained? so Suse drops support for XFS boot?

On 12.06.2009, Linda Walsh wrote:

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Weird. I've been booting from xfs with lilo, and more recently, 'grub', from suse 7.x up to 11.1.

There's a patch around (related to grub-install) which allows grub to boot from an XFS partition.

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The issue was Grub not being able to write to the root directory if it is formatted as an XFS partition.

Are you shure about that? This should not be related to GRUB at all, the main problem to have GRUB installed on a XFS formatted partition is that XFS writes its superblock to sector 0 and the grub installer overwrites it by default, and this results in not being able to chainload. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

14:16

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2009-06-11 at 23:38 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:

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Re: "Grub supposedly unable to start if /boot is on xfs partition, So, because grub is broken, XFS is no longer supported as a boot partition by Novell/SuSE. (!)...

This is old and well known stuff. You new here? >:-P

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The issue was Grub not being able to write to the root directory if it is formatted as an XFS partition.

No, that's not the issue. The issue is that both xfs and grub write to the same place breaking one another. They are (were?) currently incompatible. And it was documented by the XFS people, the idea of this problem came from them, not from suse people. Please read the original thread when this problem was first reported (factory).

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But I would really suggest that OpenSuse follow Ubuntu's example -- just use a bootloader that works.

I agree that Novell should not have dropped lilo from the bootloader configuration. But not sufficient people complained when they decided that, to save costs :-( The current suse-fied solution is just to have a small boot partition, separate from root, formatted as ext2 - grub goes there, root remains being xfs, everything works. :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoyY1IACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VKHwCeOdOy5Gn20JIbYDXJLGEtZxYz 2E8Amwa8hOE5jkoQ3+ZYiYG3Cvc71rBr =DGTJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez

14:35

On 12/06/09 10:16, Carlos E. R. wrote: But not sufficient people complained when they decided

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that, to save costs :-(

Maybe because nobody really uses it anymore ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

16:11

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

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On 12/06/09 10:16, Carlos E. R. wrote: But not sufficient people complained when they decided

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that, to save costs :-(

Maybe because nobody really uses it anymore ?

We use it on all our systems - I also complained, and also asked that it be kept in YaST as unsupported/deprecated in 11.1. I even volunteered to take over the support in YaST, but had to back out of that due to lack of time & skills. In my opinion, lilo does the job, is easy and straight forward, has no problems with RAID etc. - we just have no reason to change. /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.7°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

15:07

On Friday June 12 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The issue was Grub not being able to write to the root directory if it is formatted as an XFS partition.

No, that's not the issue. The issue is that both xfs and grub write to the same place breaking one another. They are (were?) currently incompatible.

I must be missing something. I'm running two openSUSE 11.1 systems with XFS root file systems that boot with GRUB. What are the full set of criteria for encountering this bad interaction between XFS root file systems and GRUB? (By the way, my /boot is on my root file system, i.e. XFS.)

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-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dan Goodman

15:23

Randall R Schulz wrote:

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I must be missing something. I'm running two openSUSE 11.1 systems with XFS root file systems that boot with GRUB. What are the full set of criteria for encountering this bad interaction between XFS root file systems and GRUB? (By the way, my /boot is on my root file system, i.e. XFS.)

As Heinz Diehl pointed out, earlier in this thread:

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This should not be related to GRUB at all, the main problem to have GRUB installed on a XFS formatted partition is that XFS writes its superblock to sector 0 and the grub installer overwrites it by default, and this results in not being able to chainload.

And since grub is looking for its initial data in a location somewhere within /boot on your root filesystem, that is not located at sector 0, it does not overwrite XFS's superblock at sector 0, nor does XFS clobber grub's data. Remembering also, as Carlos E.R. noted:

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The current suse-fied solution is just to have a small boot partition, separate from root, formatted as ext2 - grub goes there, root remains being xfs, everything works. :-) No reason why this wouldn't be equally true with /boot inside of the root filesystem, at other than sector 0, as it is with a /boot on a separate partition.

Does that make sense? Because it seems to me that that is what is occurring. -Dan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

15:48

On Friday June 12 2009, Dan Goodman wrote:

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Randall R Schulz wrote:

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I must be missing something. I'm running two openSUSE 11.1 systems with XFS root file systems that boot with GRUB. What are the full set of criteria for encountering this bad interaction between XFS root file systems and GRUB? (By the way, my /boot is on my root file system, i.e. XFS.)

As Heinz Diehl pointed out, earlier in this thread:

...
This should not be related to GRUB at all, the main problem to have GRUB installed on a XFS formatted partition is that XFS writes its superblock to sector 0 and the grub installer overwrites it by default, and this results in not being able to chainload.

And since grub is looking for its initial data in a location somewhere within /boot on your root filesystem, that is not located at sector 0, it does not overwrite XFS's superblock at sector 0, nor does XFS clobber grub's data.

I'm having trouble sorting that out, but I think the answer might be that the first partition on my boot volume (which _is_ the root file system) starts at cylinder 2.

...

...

-Dan

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

16:16

New subject: [opensuse] grub no longer being maintained? so Suse drops support for XFS boot?

On 2009/06/12 08:48 (GMT-0700) Randall R Schulz composed:

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I'm having trouble sorting that out, but I think the answer might be that the first partition on my boot volume (which _is_ the root file system) starts at cylinder 2.

Are you sure you don't mean "starts at track 2"? Normally that's where a primary that starts at the front of a disk begins. It can't begin on the first sector of track 1 because that's the MBR sector. Other primaries start on the first sectors of their respective tracks 1, as they provide no homes for partitioning information. Logicals have first tracks configured like first primaries, except that instead of MBR sectors at their starts they have EBR sectors. -- "Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle." Proverbs 23:5 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

16:28

New subject: [opensuse] grub no longer being maintained? so Suse drops support for XFS boot?

On Friday June 12 2009, Felix Miata wrote:

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On 2009/06/12 08:48 (GMT-0700) Randall R Schulz composed:

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I'm having trouble sorting that out, but I think the answer might be that the first partition on my boot volume (which _is_ the root file system) starts at cylinder 2.

Are you sure you don't mean "starts at track 2"? Normally that's where a primary that starts at the front of a disk begins. It can't begin on the first sector of track 1 because that's the MBR sector.

-==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- # fdisk /dev/sdb The number of cylinders for this disk is set to 4470. There is nothing wrong with that, but this is larger than 1024, and could in certain setups cause problems with: 1) software that runs at boot time (e.g., old versions of LILO) 2) booting and partitioning software from other OSs (e.g., DOS FDISK, OS/2 FDISK) Command (m for help): p Disk /dev/sdb: 36.7 GB, 36771581952 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 4470 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = bytes Disk identifier: 0x000cd67f Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sdb1 2 3265 26218080 83 Linux /dev/sdb2 3266 3918 5245222+ 83 Linux /dev/sdb3 3919 4470 4433940 82 Linux swap / Solaris Command (m for help): q -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- It would seem that in pdisk's terms, it's cylinders.

...

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Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

21:20

New subject: [opensuse] grub no longer being maintained? so Suse drops support for XFS boot?

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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# fdisk /dev/sdb

Wouldn't grub default to sda in most cases? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

22:24

New subject: [opensuse] grub no longer being maintained? so Suse drops support for XFS boot?

On Friday June 12 2009, Larry Stotler wrote:

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On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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# fdisk /dev/sdb

Wouldn't grub default to sda in most cases?

?? GRUB goes where we tell it. The BIOS boots from the drive we configure. /dev/sdb is my boot drive and /dev/sdb1 is my root file system. The letters that follow /dev/sd mean very little and in fact are not stable across changes in hardware, firmware and software, which is why we now prefer by-label or by-id mounting. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

18:04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2009-06-12 at 08:07 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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On Friday June 12 2009, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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...

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The issue was Grub not being able to write to the root directory if it is formatted as an XFS partition.

No, that's not the issue. The issue is that both xfs and grub write to the same place breaking one another. They are (were?) currently incompatible.

I must be missing something. I'm running two openSUSE 11.1 systems with XFS root file systems that boot with GRUB. What are the full set of criteria for encountering this bad interaction between XFS root file systems and GRUB? (By the way, my /boot is on my root file system, i.e. XFS.)

As I said, the problem was noticed and reported originally in factory. Search the archive for the thread "XFS Boot Problem" last november. +++ start --- From: Josef Reidinger <> Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] XFS Boot Problem ... OK, here is description why this could cause problems. From sources :) http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/faq.html#grubwork Q: Does GRUB work with XFS? There is native XFS filesystem support for GRUB starting with version 0.91 and onward. Unfortunately, GRUB used to make incorrect assumptions about being able to read a block device image while a filesystem is mounted and actively being written to, which could cause intermittent problems when using XFS. This has reportedly since been fixed, and the 0.97 version (at least) of GRUB is apparently stable. JR ... - --- end ++- From: Jiri Srain <> +++ start --- You always need to write at least the block numbers of filesystem driver to stage1 so that you are able to load it. XFS does not have a space in boot sector for any booting code. This makes impossible to have a system with /boot on XFS boot other way than installing to an unrelated boot sector (if there is any available partition - really don't recommend it) or to MBR (which e.g. removes the ThinkVantage button functionality on ThinkPad laptops). Jiri - --- end ++- http://en.opensuse.org/Bootloader/Scenarios - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoymLgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UnkQCfQ8ukzNBwYaZGg0L7PsQq7ygP JzUAn03P9sGQ+raF+T3pdi68/2WN6rEU =ez8W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh

13 Jun 13 Jun

16:43

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The current suse-fied solution is just to have a small boot partition, separate from root, formatted as ext2 - grub goes there, root remains being xfs, everything works. :-)

And that's crap. New and casual users will want to put everything in 1 partition. Make it xfs and lilo, they'll be happy. No fsck, and if they power off their system, they won't corrupt things -- they may lose everything anything recently written, but maybe they should clearly know that they should set 'sync' for disks that might just "go away" (lose power) without a proper shut down if they can't afford to lose the last 5 minutes data. Otherwise, for the occasional power-dip -- they at least don't have to worry about corruption or 'fsck' times on anything. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dean Hilkewich

16:49

Linda Walsh wrote:

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And that's crap. New and casual users will want to put everything in 1 partition. Make it xfs and lilo, they'll be happy. No fsck, and if they power off their system, they won't corrupt things -- they may lose everything anything recently written, but maybe they should clearly know that they should set 'sync' for disks that might just "go away" (lose power) without a proper shut down if they can't afford to lose the last 5 minutes data. Otherwise, for the occasional power-dip -- they at least don't have to worry about corruption or 'fsck' times on anything.

You do realize your proposal to default to lilo if xfs is used totally hoses users of dmraid right? Dean -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

17:20

New subject: [opensuse] lilo & dmraid (was: grub no longer being maintained?)

Dean Hilkewich wrote:

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Linda Walsh wrote:

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And that's crap. New and casual users will want to put everything in 1 partition. Make it xfs and lilo, they'll be happy. No fsck, and if they power off their system, they won't corrupt things -- they may lose everything anything recently written, but maybe they should clearly know that they should set 'sync' for disks that might just "go away" (lose power) without a proper shut down if they can't afford to lose the last 5 minutes data. Otherwise, for the occasional power-dip -- they at least don't have to worry about corruption or 'fsck' times on anything.

You do realize your proposal to default to lilo if xfs is used totally hoses users of dmraid right?

What is the issue with lilo and dmraid? /Per -- Per Jessen, Zürich (25.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Linda Walsh

14 Jun 14 Jun

05:24

Dean Hilkewich wrote:

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You do realize your proposal to default to lilo if xfs is used totally hoses users of dmraid right?

Um...AFAIK, raid was in use long before grub was around. I would think it would be workable with lilo, BUT, what you are asking is not relevant. If xfs isn't supported with grub, then you can't use xfs with dmraid when booting from grub. So your point is irrelevant, though your tone, in "presuming" that I am knowingly hosing some group of people does sound a bit 'aggressive'... Perhaps you should be more concerned that, if you are using xfs on top of dmraid with grub, eithe, you are already operating in an unsupported config because of a predisposition to grub hosing your xfs system, OR xfs on top of dmraid doesn't cause the same conflicts with grub that has had SuSE drop support for single partition XFS installations or XFS boot partitions. If grub doesn't stomp on dmraid with XFS on top of it, then, you realize the obvious solution would be to not move to lilo as a 'workaround' as the problem wouldn't exist in that situation. However, if the problem does exist...you are already operating in an unsupported configuration. There's no guarantee that it will continue working (which is usually what is meant by 'unsupported'). Perhaps you should express your concerns over the drop of XFS support due to grub's overwriting disk data, and hope your system doesn't become corrupt before the issue is fixed? With appropriately felt, deep concern, Linda ;^) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:48

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2009-06-13 at 22:24 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote: ...

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Perhaps you should express your concerns over the drop of XFS support due to grub's overwriting disk data, and hope your system doesn't become corrupt before the issue is fixed?

There is no drop of XFS support. Instead, and following recommendations from the XFS people, it is not recommended to put grub in an XFS partition. You may ignore the recommendation and it may work for you; some do so. Or it may not work. They simply warn that it is not safe (and I suppose YaST refuses (or issues a stiff warning) to configure as such). Notice that this issue has been always present, it is not new: it was simply not recognized or known. It is not a "drop of support", it is a new warning for a, previously ignored, old situation. You can follow the recommended, time proved, practice of having a separate /boot partition in ext2 format, then root can be XFS (or anything). Having a /boot partition is still the only configuration that is ensured to work on all cases. Yes, in this 21st century. If you don't like that, complain to XFS and Grub people, not SUSE/Novell - and remember that the 1.xx version of grub is frozen and the 2.xx is not finished, so we are stuck. Or, you can complain to Novell so that they reinstate Lilo as supported - in which proposal, every body will be ignored, I'm afraid. I tried. Money mandates. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko01YQACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W19QCghfh71myFYKjbNxwyxtcoNQUX eCsAn3keKRTok/s9JpwRwY9pNYLumuf0 =7Tfx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Steffen Winterfeldt

15 Jun 15 Jun