External repositories
Hi. Maybe this question seems a little stupid, but I would like to ask it anyway. Does it makes sence to keep the system up-to-date with external repositories? The ones I am going to use are basically guru, packman and (a bit of) rbos. As far as I see they are somewhat less crippled with respect to multimedia software, but I am not sure whether I am looking for trouble by by letting them replace the packages from the base system. And one more question -- what is the status of the apt repository on ftp4.gwdg.de? At the moment it is somewhat out-of-sync with the corresponding yast repositories, and even more some of them are still missing (like supplementary/KDE and supplementary/GNOME). Is it a temporary glitch caused by a huge load on ftp4? -- Best regards, Alexander.
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 09:19:34AM +0200, Alexander S. Usov wrote:
As far as I see they are somewhat less crippled with respect to multimedia software, but I am not sure whether I am looking for trouble by by letting them replace the packages from the base system.
The `danger` is that those you replace are being locked, wich means they will not be updated with YOU. To see what foles are affected, open yast, Software Management and filter on Instalation summery. There you can select the Versions and see if there are any that you can use. You then can change it and do a reinstall of the files. It can happen that things are then not compatible, but YaST will warn you. That way I only have `speex` that is available on SUSE and Packman, but must use the Packman one. The other programs that are locked with me are: apollon, aterm, ccze, GeoIP, gift, grepm, lame, libdvdcss2, libxine1, mad, makeSUSEdvd, MPlayer, mx, netselect, skype, speex, w32codec-all, wmdrawer, xmms-lib. The only program (apart from scripts) that are not yet in an RPM are JAlbum and MPlayer-plugin
And one more question -- what is the status of the apt repository on ftp4.gwdg.de? At the moment it is somewhat out-of-sync with the corresponding yast repositories, and even more some of them are still missing (like supplementary/KDE and supplementary/GNOME). Is it a temporary glitch caused by a huge load on ftp4?
It should be the same as the YaST repositories as they use the same file. However I can not verify, as I do not use apt, because it works with YaST. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 houghi wrote:
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 09:19:34AM +0200, Alexander S. Usov wrote:
As far as I see they are somewhat less crippled with respect to multimedia software, but I am not sure whether I am looking for trouble by by letting them replace the packages from the base system.
The `danger` is that those you replace are being locked, wich means they will not be updated with YOU. To see what foles are affected, open yast,
Yes, that behaviour is still a little weird for me. That's something that must be changed in YaST2. [...]
And one more question -- what is the status of the apt repository on ftp4.gwdg.de? At the moment it is somewhat out-of-sync with the corresponding yast repositories, and even more some of them are still missing (like supplementary/KDE and supplementary/GNOME). Is it a temporary glitch caused by a huge load on ftp4?
It should be the same as the YaST repositories as they use the same file.
They don't.
They target the same RPM files (an APT repository has symlinks to the actual RPM files outside of
the APT repository tree), but they have completely different repository formats and metadata.
So, yes, they can be out of sync, most specifically because - as far as my own repository (guru) is
concerned:
- - I generate the YaST2 repository metadata on my own server, before it gets pulled by ftp4.gwdg.de
- - the APT repositories are generated by ftp4.gwdg.de, after pulling packages
If, indeed, ftp4.gwdg.de is under heavy load, it takes ages to generate the APT repositories
(they're quite slow and I/O intensive). On the other hand, my YaST2 repository is always up-to-date,
as far as it has been pulled properly by ftp4.gwdg.de
And here we run in another issue we have at the moment: because of a nasty bug in the latest rsync
version (2.6.6) - apparently only triggered when under extreme load - the nightly sync of my
packages onto gwdg.de is broken. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Eberhard and I will have to find some time to try fixing that, although we couldn't find any
workaround until now :\
Hopefully the load will decrease of ftp4.gwdg.de, which should solve that issue as well.
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
On Wednesday 12 October 2005 09:45, houghi wrote:
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 09:19:34AM +0200, Alexander S. Usov wrote:
As far as I see they are somewhat less crippled with respect to multimedia software, but I am not sure whether I am looking for trouble by by letting them replace the packages from the base system.
The `danger` is that those you replace are being locked, wich means they will not be updated with YOU. To see what foles are affected, open yast, Software Management and filter on Instalation summery.
There you can select the Versions and see if there are any that you can use. You then can change it and do a reinstall of the files. It can happen that things are then not compatible, but YaST will warn you. That way I only have `speex` that is available on SUSE and Packman, but must use the Packman one.
That's is one of the reasons I don't like YaST package manager. The other one is a very strange way of updating the stuff and the inability to set priorities. Truly to say the only one thing I really liked is the ability to revert the installed system to one of the installation choices. For the rest I think apt is much better. -- Best regards, Alexander.
houghi wrote:
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 09:19:34AM +0200, Alexander S. Usov wrote:
As far as I see they are somewhat less crippled with respect to multimedia software, but I am not sure whether I am looking for trouble by by letting them replace the packages from the base system.
The `danger` is that those you replace are being locked, wich means they will not be updated with YOU. To see what foles are affected, open yast, Software Management and filter on Instalation summery.
If you installed them by apt, you can simply update them by apt, too. Even if they are locked in yast. But what I read on this list (even by Richard Bos himself?), the longterm plannings will go to using yum not apt. For 10.0 however, apt is fine. Ciao Siegbert
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Siegbert Baude wrote: ...
If you installed them by apt, you can simply update them by apt, too. Even if they are locked in yast.
Yep.
But what I read on this list (even by Richard Bos himself?), the longterm plannings will go to using yum not apt. For 10.0 however, apt is fine.
yum has at least two advantages over apt:
1) it's been written to support RPM "natively", where apt(rpm) is "just" a port of apt to support an
RPM subsystem instead of dpkg (the Debian package manager, which it was originally written and still
actively maintained for)
2) creating yum repositories is very easy, straightforward and fast; creating apt(rpm) repositories
is magnitudes slower and a little more complex to set up
On the other hand, what speaks for apt is that it has been used a lot, since a long time, it's
definately a very stable and well functioning piece of software, although those arguments are voided
a little because apt(rpm) is a port, not the one used by all the Debian folks.
The longterm plan is this: http://smartpm.org
SUSE Linux RPMs are here: http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/rpm-navigation.php?cat=/System/smart
Note that the author and current maintainer of Smart is Gustavo Niemeyer, who is the guy who
originally ported apt to RPM. It's a while he's being paid full-time for implementing Smart, first
at Conectiva, then at Mandriva (Mandrake having bought up Conectiva) and now for Canonical.
That means it's very actively maintained and that the author pretty much knows his subject ;)
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 09:03:29PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:
yum has at least two advantages over apt: 1) it's been written to support RPM "natively", where apt(rpm) is "just" a port of apt to support an RPM subsystem instead of dpkg (the Debian package manager, which it was originally written and still actively maintained for) 2) creating yum repositories is very easy, straightforward and fast; creating apt(rpm) repositories is magnitudes slower and a little more complex to set up
On the other hand, what speaks for apt is that it has been used a lot, since a long time, it's definately a very stable and well functioning piece of software, although those arguments are voided a little because apt(rpm) is a port, not the one used by all the Debian folks.
Another very importand difference is that yum repo's are usable with YaST and apt is not. (at least for 10.0 onwards) and YaST is from a users point of view the ultimate instalation tool for SUSE.
The longterm plan is this: http://smartpm.org Will this be usable with YaST as well? As a user I am not really interested wether a repo is yum, apt, smartpm, YaST or a bunch of zip files. As long as I can use it with YaST I am happy.
I understand that for the repo maintainers it is an issue and I hope that smartpm can satisfy both parties. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Op woensdag 12 oktober 2005 21:50, schreef houghi:
On the other hand, what speaks for apt is that it has been used a lot, since a long time, it's definately a very stable and well functioning piece of software, although those arguments are voided a little because apt(rpm) is a port, not the one used by all the Debian folks.
Another very importand difference is that yum repo's are usable with YaST and apt is not.
The only thing apt(-rpm) actually needs is someone to implement a repomd (md = metadata) parser. The parser must convert the repomd format to apt's internal format. As the debian apt developers attended the repomd format discussion all needed information is in the repomd format. It's up to the apt community (suse and beyond, including debian) to keep apt-rpm usable in the future too...
(at least for 10.0 onwards) and YaST is from a users point of view the ultimate instalation tool for SUSE.
As long as Eberhard is generating the apt repository, apt can be used. But I can imagine that Eberhard will stop generating the apt repository for newer suse versions as soon as the repomd format is fully implemented (including the clients). As you have noticed it's quite some work for the server to create the repository! If apt is extended with a repomd parser, apt could be used much longer.
The longterm plan is this: http://smartpm.org
Will this be usable with YaST as well?
Difficult to answer. I think the real answer is no, but if I think I understand what you want to ask, than the answer is yes... YAST, smartpm, red-carpet and yum are all client programs (you see, smartpm can not be used by yast, thence my 'no' answer)... They all use and query the same package repository (at least in the future). That package repository is repomd formatted. As such it does not matter what tool you use. (you see, hence my 'yes' answer).
As a user I am not really interested wether a repo is yum, apt, smartpm, YaST or a bunch of zip files. As long as I can use it with YaST I am happy.
See above, this remark does not make sense. There is no yum, apt or smartpm now or in the future. There is only repomd.
I understand that for the repo maintainers it is an issue and I hope that smartpm can satisfy both parties.
No smartpm does not satisfy the server side. It is the repomd format that makes Eberhard happy and you as well. Because with less load on the server, there is more processor and io capacity available for you. -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 10:48:18PM +0200, Richard Bos wrote:
As a user I am not really interested wether a repo is yum, apt, smartpm, YaST or a bunch of zip files. As long as I can use it with YaST I am happy.
See above, this remark does not make sense. There is no yum, apt or smartpm now or in the future. There is only repomd.
Yes it does. I am not interested if it is YaST or repomd or if it is infinite monleys typing. As long as I can use it with the YaST client, I am happy. The names of the programs were mere examples. I do not care about the underlying techniques used or what the server runs. My sole interest as a user is if I just can do `Yast > Instalation Source` and add things, then go to `Yast -> Software Management` and install software. If whatever it is called does that, I am happy. If it is not possible or I need another program installed, I really can't be bothered, because I won't use it. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
2005/10/12, houghi
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 10:48:18PM +0200, Richard Bos wrote:
As a user I am not really interested wether a repo is yum, apt, smartpm, YaST or a bunch of zip files. As long as I can use it with YaST I am happy.
See above, this remark does not make sense. There is no yum, apt or smartpm now or in the future. There is only repomd.
Yes it does. I am not interested if it is YaST or repomd or if it is infinite monleys typing. As long as I can use it with the YaST client, I am happy. The names of the programs were mere examples.
I do not care about the underlying techniques used or what the server runs. My sole interest as a user is if I just can do `Yast > Instalation Source` and add things, then go to `Yast -> Software Management` and install software.
If whatever it is called does that, I am happy. If it is not possible or I need another program installed, I really can't be bothered, because I won't use it.
Well we can rename smart as Yast installer if you prefer. -- Marcel Mourguiart
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 06:14:02PM -0300, Marcel Mourguiart wrote:
Well we can rename smart as Yast installer if you prefer.
I am not making myself clear apperntly. So a simple question. Can I add furure reporsitories as an Instalation source? Can I install programs on those repo's with Yast -> Software management? I am not interested in names. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
On Wednesday 12 October 2005 21:03, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Siegbert Baude wrote: ...
If you installed them by apt, you can simply update them by apt, too. Even if they are locked in yast.
Yep.
But what I read on this list (even by Richard Bos himself?), the longterm plannings will go to using yum not apt. For 10.0 however, apt is fine.
yum has at least two advantages over apt: 1) it's been written to support RPM "natively", where apt(rpm) is "just" a port of apt to support an RPM subsystem instead of dpkg (the Debian package manager, which it was originally written and still actively maintained for) 2) creating yum repositories is very easy, straightforward and fast; creating apt(rpm) repositories is magnitudes slower and a little more complex to set up
On the other hand, what speaks for apt is that it has been used a lot, since a long time, it's definately a very stable and well functioning piece of software, although those arguments are voided a little because apt(rpm) is a port, not the one used by all the Debian folks.
The longterm plan is this: http://smartpm.org SUSE Linux RPMs are here: http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/rpm-navigation.php?cat=/System/smart
Note that the author and current maintainer of Smart is Gustavo Niemeyer, who is the guy who originally ported apt to RPM. It's a while he's being paid full-time for implementing Smart, first at Conectiva, then at Mandriva (Mandrake having bought up Conectiva) and now for Canonical. That means it's very actively maintained and that the author pretty much knows his subject ;)
Hope it wouldn't happen in the very near future ;) As a simple example: $ ps axl | grep smart 0 1001 21282 1 15 0 24548 3420 - S ? 0:00 kdesu smart --gui 4 0 21297 21294 15 0 557048 236368 - Ss ? 2:23 /usr/bin/python /usr/bin/smart --gui 0 1001 21842 21529 17 0 1864 628 - R+ pts/1 0:00 grep smart Note VSZ and RSS columns. And I have "only" half-gig of ram installed :( -- Best regards, Alexander.
Pascal Bleser wrote:
The longterm plan is this: http://smartpm.org SUSE Linux RPMs are here: http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/rpm-navigation.php?cat=/System/smart
Note that the author and current maintainer of Smart is Gustavo Niemeyer, who is the guy who originally ported apt to RPM. It's a while he's being paid full-time for implementing Smart, first at Conectiva, then at Mandriva (Mandrake having bought up Conectiva) and now for Canonical.
Speaking of that, and remembering a mail from myself, just yesterday I've seen that the EasyUrpmi page [1] can now help one to configure his smart channels (as they are called in smart). Do you experts think that can be merged with the apt4suse [2] script to abtain a dumb-ready user like me a quick configuration for software repository ? Thanks ! [1] http://tinyurl.com/d8tpj [2] http://susewiki.org/index.php?title=Install-apt4suse -- .~. Nicola -=KOOLINUS=- Losito /v\ http://www.koolinus.net // \\ /( )\ Linux Registered User #293182 ^^ ^^ icq:62837984 * Jabber-ID:koolinus@jabber.linux.it
Hi, On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Alexander S. Usov wrote:
Maybe this question seems a little stupid, but I would like to ask it anyway.
Does it makes sence to keep the system up-to-date with external repositories? The ones I am going to use are basically guru, packman and (a bit of) rbos.
As far as I see they are somewhat less crippled with respect to multimedia software, but I am not sure whether I am looking for trouble by by letting them replace the packages from the base system.
And one more question -- what is the status of the apt repository on ftp4.gwdg.de? At the moment it is somewhat out-of-sync with the corresponding yast repositories, and even more some of them are still missing (like supplementary/KDE and supplementary/GNOME). Is it a temporary glitch caused by a huge load on ftp4?
Yes. Repository generation needs more than 24 hours currently (was usually only some few minutes), and during that time, some packages get renewed (but not recognized)... "By design" we will never get this totally in-sync, but currently we see very very clearly how bad it can be if the servers first have to build metadata before the files will be usable. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Eberhard Moenkeberg schrieb:
Hi,
On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Alexander S. Usov wrote:
Maybe this question seems a little stupid, but I would like to ask it anyway.
Does it makes sence to keep the system up-to-date with external repositories? The ones I am going to use are basically guru, packman and (a bit of) rbos.
As far as I see they are somewhat less crippled with respect to multimedia software, but I am not sure whether I am looking for trouble by by letting them replace the packages from the base system.
And one more question -- what is the status of the apt repository on ftp4.gwdg.de? At the moment it is somewhat out-of-sync with the corresponding yast repositories, and even more some of them are still missing (like supplementary/KDE and supplementary/GNOME). Is it a temporary glitch caused by a huge load on ftp4?
Yes. Repository generation needs more than 24 hours currently (was usually only some few minutes), and during that time, some packages get renewed (but not recognized)... "By design" we will never get this totally in-sync, but currently we see very very clearly how bad it can be if the servers first have to build metadata before the files will be usable.
If ftp4 runs 10.0, it should be possible to use ionice to give higher io priority to metadata building and lowest prio to ftp serving. Restricting the max concurrent ftp logins to a lower number and forbidding more than one ftp login per IP should help even more to reduce disk seeks. Regards, Carl-Daniel -- http://www.hailfinger.org/
Hi, On Wed, 12 Oct 2005, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg schrieb:
Yes. Repository generation needs more than 24 hours currently (was usually only some few minutes), and during that time, some packages get renewed (but not recognized)... "By design" we will never get this totally in-sync, but currently we see very very clearly how bad it can be if the servers first have to build metadata before the files will be usable.
If ftp4 runs 10.0, it should be possible to use ionice to give higher io priority to metadata building and lowest prio to ftp serving.
Good idea. I have started experimenting with ionice now... But it seems to be a hazardous tool: any user is able to starve a system, f.e. by doing "ionice -c1 -n0 bonnie...". I guess ionice needs a mechanism like nice: a user can only lower the priority, only root can raise. This probably needs some more work: each process needs a default cfq class and priority "somewhere in the middle" which is hard to define. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
participants (9)
-
Alexander S. Usov -
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger -
Eberhard Moenkeberg -
houghi -
Marcel Mourguiart -
Nicola -kOoLiNuS- Losito -
Pascal Bleser -
Richard Bos -
Siegbert Baude