...

even with all the help i've received on this mailing list from the manuals the man pages and various help forums online not to mention friend and the library of knowledge

linux isn't ready for the desktop market for one reason it's just too hard to use that i've picked up over the years of computer geeking

i still can't get my ati all-in-wonder radeon to function properly in kde tuxracer doesn't even work

now kde has it's own host of bugs but until installing and running

linux won't score any points in the desktop market ps and don't tell me i'm just too dumb to use it a computer is a tool and like any other tool it should be easy to use linux is more powerful for its customisability but if i can't just download one program that scans my machine and grabs what i need off the web i'll keep my windows box

On Tuesday 04 September 2001 08:07 pm, gabriel, you wrote: the os is as easy as "point, doubleclick, ok, ok, ok" thanks ---------------------------------- Gabriel, I suspect you are quite the opposite of "dumb", it sounds that at least you tried your hand at Linux and may even still have something setup with it. I think you will probably be back when you once again become disgusted with Windows. I came to SuSE from the Amiga looking for an OS as stable and configurable. I had never actually used Linux before, even though the AmigaOS is somewhat loosely based on Unix. I have to use Windows & MacOS in my work, so I am familar with those as well. SuSE Linux has proven to be as easy an OS to use and setup that I have seen in a long time. I think one of the problems with Linux as was with AmigaOS is that it is so darn configurable! That in some ways makes it hard to use, because you just can't leave it alone! If someone just did the install using automatic installation and never messed with it outside the GUI, it is as easy to use as anything available. But, as I suspect this was one of your problems too, most people just can't stop there! They have to tweak, add on, change things, etc until they run into problems, then whine about how difficult it is to use. I ran across this in the schools here when I setup the Amiga computers for them. As long as they stayed in the setup, no problems, but they just couldn't do that. That was one reason the Apple computers were better starting systems for them, because the OS is so restrictive and makes them stay just in one area. Windoze tried to do that too and succeeded somewhat, but they ended up messing more things up than fixing them and of course the antiquated hardware didn't help either with all the IRQ problems, slow bus and memory limits. Anyway, I digress and didn't mean to go off in this long winded reply, I just wanted to point out some things that actually say that Linux is ready for the Desktop and SuSE leads the way for that. The problems you pointed out that you had are not unusual, but I suspect your original setup/install worked pretty well for you? end of line Tracer -- ---KMail 1.3--- SuSE Linux v7.2--- Registered Linux User #225206 /tracerb@sprintmail.com/ *Magic Page Products* *Team Amiga* http://home.sprintmail.com/~tracerb

Vitaly et al - Jumping in a little late on this discussion but just can't help comment on at least one part, that of the Office Suite. While I work in an almost exclusive microsoft office environment, I have never used the product and never will; I simply refuse to work with such an awkward, and very limited, piece of software. I began using the WordPerfect Office Suite back in version 7 when it shipped with hundreds of programs to complement it on the set of disks that required you to pay for first and then receive a key to unlock. This was in the early 90s prior to anything office suite-wise from other companies and was head and shoulders above any competition. I still use this office suite except that it is now produced by Corel corporation and up to version 10. Version 9, otherwise known as WordPerfect Office 2000 was made for both windows and Linux; in fact, the two programs are virtually the same the exception being that the Linux version runs under wine. All the power that is WordPerfect and its accompanying office partners Quattro Pro, Paradox, Presentations (a vector/raster/presentation program that literally shames powerpoint), CorelCENTRAL, Paradox, and Dragon Naturally Speaking is available for Linux. This is the ONLY office suite I use; the windows version at work and the Linux version at home. I would humbly suggest that this is the office suite we should be discussing and using for comparative purposed. True, its not free, but it is roughly a third the cost of the ms based products and it is far more capable. More importantly, the Corel Office Suite does not leave you natively exposed to all the problems associated with visual basic. Linux has the very BEST of the office suites! dave Vitaly Shishakov wrote:

Well, i was greatly confised to see a great discussion fired up by my message. Too sad to it's growing into usual WINDOWZ vs LINUX flame, i've already seen on many linux sites. (Luckily there was almost none xBSD vs LINUX arguments here, almost usual for such flames)

I just wanted to highlight and summarize some statements:

MS-OFFICE vs Other office suites: -- this is the most valueable argument for people who say the Linux will never be a Desktop system.

I agree with Ben Rosenberg, who say, that, for example, StarOffice package is not less featurefull than MS suite is, the point it to teach a user to use these features, which is actually a problem of schools. But we should consider, while Windows is considered to be the desktop #1 OS, you would never persuade application programmers to swith platform for SOHO solutions development. (for example such as various MS-OFFICE utilities, that use MS databases to account some things) .

while Windows is a platform #1 for multimedia games (and #2 is MAC) -- we will see less games for Linux. QuakeIII is good in linux, but it is not enough to call Linux a multimedia platform for games. Yet, despite of great success of Linux in cinema industry, where it replaces legendary SGI (does it mean a support of exotic input and media devices that cinema guys use?), mutimedia is still a weak part of it -- people who work with sound and music will agree with me.

Q: Why Linux should become a Desktop OS #1 ? A: i dont know. just because. the point for today is simple competition -- this stuff is business related, and we, common users, care less about it. all we want -- is a quility product, fully satisfying our needs. The other point is, that having Linux as a default desktop, we get -- a freedom of choice for distribution (this results in different service, Desktop look-and-feel, being sure we are not watched by BB, etc.) -- what we do not have in Windows case.

Q: Does Linux have any chance to become a desktop OS #1 ? A: Exactly -- it has a CHANCE, but this chance is to be used. Some people would say, that Linux was designed for serious proffessional work and nothing else. Objection: Imagine, that 4 years ago you learn, that Windows NT would ever become a HOME desktop enviroment #1, and a mutimedia platform too -- you would laugh hearing that. And as a result we see attempts to make this platform uniform in every field of industry -- Enterprise servers, Business desktop, Home entertaiment, and even Embedded Devices. Same with Linux -- it already leads in some fields (web servers, super-computing, etc) but the greater piece of pie is yet to be taken -- Desktop. how to use the chance -- SIMPLE, just give the user what it wants, the rest will be done automatically, everithing works for this NOW: IBM 'Love, peace, Linux" campaign, MS-antitrust trial, forthcoming ACTIVATION feature enabling in MS products, and, of course, LOTS OF WORK ALREADY DONE BY OUR BRILLIANT DEVELOPERS, and of course, history experience of OS/2.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! All above is said to stress the original idea of my first message !! !! to users, to do more FEEDBACK about the product they use, and !! !! i urge you all to discuss not WINDOWZ vs LINUX, but LINUX alone! !! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sincerelly, Vitaly.

PS: [OT] about MS activation: it is known that windows currently is the desktop #1 in the world, and i am sure, that more than 90% of windows installations are illegal (in Europe and US -- may be just 60-70%). It is quite legal for MS to demand their money from every Windows installation ever made -- that is why Activation was made. -- but i dont think that this will be quite popular, and if hackers will not break this protection, most home users will never update their OSes to new versions, and, for e.g. that is why support from Game makers for win9x will last for long time. And that is exactly the chance that Linux should use to persuade these users to switch LEGALLY to free and more cost-effective platform, and will succeed if, and only if it will satisfy the users needs.

PPS: [further off topic] lets scream all together: HACKERS! PLEASE, DO NOT BREAK THE ACTIVATION!

PPPS: to Ben:

...

I just want lazy people out of mine. If people can't take the time to learn something new then they shouldn't. They should stay in their comfort zone and stay out of mine. Simple.

I used to help a teacher in a computer class of 1st year students in Department of Physics, Moscow State University (that what phys.msu.su stands for in my address). The base platform of our computer class is WindowsNT + MS-Dev. Studio. -- we teach 1st and 2nd year students C++ and Matlab. In russia it not as good with home computers as in EU and US, and it is common to see people came to university who'd never seen a computer before. And sometimes, while reading lectures about pointers in C, in the same time i had to TEACH some students to do basic things -- Cut&Paste, Drag&Drop, and even a simple Mouse clicks and double-clicks. I said to underline the following: Linux is a great platform, and the mighty RTFM is you great helper for it's overriding. BUT: You still have to TEACH many people even to use the intuitive-clear interface (at least in schools).

Please, all of you, next time you say that 'command line rules', 'FAQ you!' and 'RTFM!' -- please, remeber my experience above.

-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq and the archives at http://lists.suse.com

On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:49:33PM -0400, Doug McGarrett wrote:

Except that, AFAIK, Corel has abandoned all Linux support, since it accepted a major bailout from MS, and you can no longer buy the Corel Office Suite for Linux. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. Please. --doug

Well, I noticed it for sale at Vroom and Dreesman (a big department store in Holland) the other day, at a reduced price however. Cliff

StarTux wrote:

Cliff Sarginson wrote:

...

On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:49:33PM -0400, Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

Except that, AFAIK, Corel has abandoned all Linux support, since it accepted a major bailout from MS, and you can no longer buy the Corel Office Suite for Linux. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. Please. --doug

Well, I noticed it for sale at Vroom and Dreesman (a big department store in Holland) the other day, at a reduced price however.

Cliff

http://www3.corel.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagenam e=Corel/Product/Details&id=CC1868B84AC

Saw it here too, with buy icon next to it. But selecting this gives you a number to call...So not too sure..

Matt

Certainly can you buy WPO2000.. Corel has spinned off its Linux distro, but Corel maintains its applications for Linux. It remains uncertain, however, if there will be a Linux version of WPO2002. The issue is, they have ported WPO2K to Linux using Wine technology, and that turned out not to be such a good idea. Wine, in a sort of permanent beta state, is good for small programs, but it makes a large program such as WPO2000 a little, let's say, fragile. It's not as stable as you would expect of a Linux program, and it causes installation problems on several distributions. So they had to make new install scripts and an optimized version of Wine, and there are a few known problems left. So one thing is certain: a next release of WPO should be Linux native. However, this is an enormous task, and if the market for WPO4L would be large enough, they would do it, but, as the situation is now, it's not worth while. But don't let yourself be disencouraged by this; for those who like WordPerfect it's well worth the trouble. I have it running well on SuSE 7.1, it offers an impressive functionality that is hardly seen on any other Linux program. Biggest advantage over SO for me is that it has a font installer, and it comes with a thousand fonts (a few hundred "font families", that is), truetype as well as type1. And a CD full of clipart and the like. The price is just about one third of the price for the Win version. SH

Vitaly Shishakov wrote:

<snip>

Well its still in its infancy, but is much easier to use than Windows 3.11 and DOS :). Trumpet Winsock, and mem problems, ugh...Wonder how many remember that? Matt

At 00:59 09/05/2001 -0700, Ben Rosenberg wrote: /snip/

People are just cranky because Linux requires learning and reading..two things that most schools fail to teach these days. *shrug*

-- Ben Rosenberg mailto:ben@whack.org

I think the problem is that most of us have never been exposed to the in-depth computer argot that one finds in the UNIX/Linux manuals, and so much of what is written could just as well have been in Greek. (Unless, of course, you live in Greece; then it might as well have been in Chinese.) Things are improving, or I am improving, or both, but there are certain (read: many) concepts that I, for one, am simply not in the least familiar with. When most of the mavins have actively studied CS in school, it is somewhat difficult, even for someone who built his own Big Board, to cope. --doug