[opensuse] Re: 64bit Kernel and 32bit Userland - how to do it?
Jerry Houston wrote:
On Thursday 20 November 2008 02:42:13 Joachim Schrod wrote:
In case you're wondering why I want that constellation: I prefer 32bit userland for its stability and availability of media stuff (e.g., win32 codecs), but I also want to run 64bit OSes in VMware instances. For that I need a 64bit kernel. In addition, it will handle my 8 GB main memory better than a PAE kernel.
Oh yes, the release of choice will be eventually 11.1; in case that matters.
Joachim, I'm not sure you'd have any problem with a 64-bit "userland" at all.
Here at home, both my domain controller and my desktop workstation are 64-bit AMD machines running 11.0, 64-bit all the way. My laptop (which I'm using to answer you) is a 32-bit Toshiba Intel machine, also running 11.0.
So far, I haven't found anything that I can do with the laptop that I can't also do with either the desktop workstation or the server. That includes watching MotoGP videos, YouTube videos, commercial DVDs, and so on.
Maybe our requirements are different, but I'd recommend that you consider starting with a 64-bit system, and only worrying about a 32-bit runtime if you find out that it really matters to you. I'm guessing that it won't.
In June, on several Java/Eclipse mailing lists were still reports by people who have problems with 64-bit installations, also with SUSE 11.0. Just google for "eclipse 64-bit crash" and you see the
60,000 posts, many of them from the last half year. Even if this is supposed to change with 11.1, that would be way to fresh and the risk would be too high to make that the primary environment for development. (Also, my clients use 32-bit Java installations mostly.)
According to many reports, 64-bit Linux desktop userland is not stable enough to be used as primary system for my intented use cases. Nevertheless, I want to try and experiment with 64-bit (in a VM); but I won't change my primary workstation, where I'm earning money with, without extensive tests. I would not consider that professional. I don't get this new system for fun or to play with, but because this fscking development environments and virtual machines need so much main memory and disk space that it's not economic any more to upgrade my current workstation. But plunging head-first into untested environments is something for home and after-hours, not for work where I have to get stuff done on tight time schedules. I'm using Linux since more than 13 years, and Unix since more than 25 years -- that's a lesson I learned in that time. Upgrading to 11.1 shortly after it comes out will be risk enough... Please believe me, my question was born out of necessity, and not because I'm overly cautious. Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Joachim Schrod escribió:
According to many reports, 64-bit Linux desktop userland is not stable enough to be used as primary system for my intented use cases.
care to explain what has the architecture to do with "stability" from your point of view ? -- "We have art in order not to die of the truth" - Friedrich Nietzsche Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/
Cristian Rodríguez writes:
Joachim Schrod escribió:
According to many reports, 64-bit Linux desktop userland is not stable enough to be used as primary system for my intented use cases.
care to explain what has the architecture to do with "stability" from your point of view ?
As I explained: There are 64-bit userland programs that I intend to use, where there are confirmed reports of crashes and instability in the last 6 months. This concerns in particular Eclipse and other Java-based packages, when one uses the 64-bit JVM 1.5 from Sun. Please note that updating to Java 6 or an other JVM is not possible for me; Java versions to be used are determined by my customers, not by me. I can't tell them to update the JVM for their central JBoss in their data center just because I want to use 64-bit Eclipse on OpenSUSE 11.1. They would laugh me out of the room, and just rightly so. For some of these crashes, root cause analysis are available and fixes sit in Sun's code repository or are even released -- but it ain't clear if they really resolve the major problems, since they have not been out for long enough. See, for example, from the 1st page of a Google search: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=214092#c19 http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6614100 http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse/browse_thread/thread/0b3a32231b683d... http://tcl.sfs.uni-tuebingen.de/~hendrik/eclipse64.shtml (I know from mailing lists that these issues are also there for Java 5, not only for Java 6. I just don't have the bug numbers handy right now.) If one follows Java and Eclipse mailing lists and newsgroups, similar reports pour in even after Sun's fix was released. Thus, more testing is needed for me before I make the switch to an all-64-bit userland. Add to that the recommendations from this mailing list to use 32-bit userland for all programs that use win32 codecs or flash, and I'm at the point to prefer to start with 32-bit userland programs and move gradually to 64-bit after testing. But for testing, I need a 64-bit kernel, and that triggered my question. Using 11.1 right from the start will be bleeding-edge enough for a workstation where schedules have to be met... Regards, Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 11/21/2008 05:29 PM, Joachim Schrod wrote:
As I explained: There are 64-bit userland programs that I intend to use, where there are confirmed reports of crashes and instability in the last 6 months. This concerns in particular Eclipse and other Java-based packages, when one uses the 64-bit JVM 1.5 from Sun.
You can have both a 64 bit and 32 bit java installed. I'm not experienced beyond that, i.e. Eclipse, but you would use the update-alternatives script to switch which version would be the default java used.
Please note that updating to Java 6 or an other JVM is not possible for me; Java versions to be used are determined by my customers, not by me. I can't tell them to update the JVM for their central JBoss in their data center just because I want to use 64-bit Eclipse on OpenSUSE 11.1. They would laugh me out of the room, and just rightly so.
You could just use the 32 bit versions of the dependencies for Eclipse, set your 32 bit as default, and enjoy the best of both. In I believe 10.1 or 10.2, opensuse did not use a 64 bit browser because of the poor 64 bit plugin support at the time, including java. So they provided everything needed to run either arch.
Thus, more testing is needed for me before I make the switch to an all-64-bit userland. Add to that the recommendations from this mailing list to use 32-bit userland for all programs that use win32 codecs or flash, and I'm at the point to prefer to start with 32-bit userland programs and move gradually to 64-bit after testing. But for testing, I need a 64-bit kernel, and that triggered my question. Using 11.1 right from the start will be bleeding-edge enough for a workstation where schedules have to be met...
As you have mentioned many times, your use case for your computer requires it just works. Most things work in 64 bit, some not as mature as 32 bit. Some things run better 64 bit. In your case, kernel and supporting packages require 64 bit. You can mix your 64 bit and 32 bit userland apps to suit your needs. Some of our use case or goal is different. I have been using 64 bit since I believe 9.1. I have went from trying to get everything working as 64 bit, to seeing the wisdom of some things being used as 32 bit because of the lack of an equal or better 64 bit version. I have been frustrated that the adobe (or macromedia actually then) still hasn't made even a beta version of the flash plugin for 64 bit, while in that time I have seen the OSS community (with special thanks to Kandy and others) port a much more complicated app like OpenOffice to 64 bit. The problem some of us have to using 32 bit stuff in 64 bit is the "It works already as 32 bit" type of thinking which hinders 64 bit development. But you are free to use what works best for you in your use of your computer. What you are wanting to accomplish is definitely doable with a 64 bit opensuse, which I think have the best availability of the supporting packages to run 32 bit stuff in 64 bit. -- Joe Morris Registered Linux user 231871 running openSUSE 10.3 x86_64 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Joe Morris wrote:
On 11/21/2008 05:29 PM, Joachim Schrod wrote:
As I explained: There are 64-bit userland programs that I intend to use, where there are confirmed reports of crashes and instability in the last 6 months. This concerns in particular Eclipse and other Java-based packages, when one uses the 64-bit JVM 1.5 from Sun.
You can have both a 64 bit and 32 bit java installed. I'm not experienced beyond that, i.e. Eclipse, but you would use the update-alternatives script to switch which version would be the default java used.
Please note that updating to Java 6 or an other JVM is not possible for me; Java versions to be used are determined by my customers, not by me. I can't tell them to update the JVM for their central JBoss in their data center just because I want to use 64-bit Eclipse on OpenSUSE 11.1. They would laugh me out of the room, and just rightly so.
You could just use the 32 bit versions of the dependencies for Eclipse, set your 32 bit as default, and enjoy the best of both. In I believe 10.1 or 10.2, opensuse did not use a 64 bit browser because of the poor 64 bit plugin support at the time, including java. So they provided everything needed to run either arch. <snip>
AFAIK Eclipse does not exclude the capability to work with other Java JRE versions for development work than the version of JRE eclipse is actually running on, I suspect Joachim is already aware of this. (BTW This is not something I have ever tried, like to get feedback if anyone has, I would also really like to know how the debugger handles this). The issues with 64 bit Eclipse are well known and are very irritating, I believe Ganymede is more stable on Java 6 (and it is also not well buried in an obscure place on the eclipse site any more). There are some sneaky Java 6 requirements for certain bits of Eclipse so ruling out 6 may not be wise. BTW The SuSE package is good for those who want to learn Eclipse or have very basic requirements, for serious work get it from elsewhere (eclipse.org or for 32 bit Yoxos). I sometimes get the feeling that maybe a list for those who use SuSE as a development platform might be a good idea, (the SuSE programmers list is a bit ambiguous because it not really clear whether this is for people who want to write stuff for the distro or on the distro). - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkm9UgACgkQasN0sSnLmgLDQgCg1q0Be8YQrj15j80ybchlogdw SmcAoJGmzHXddUOiQGFRw6pqYVBXWgr8 =2An6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
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Cristian Rodríguez -
G T Smith -
Joachim Schrod -
Joe Morris