Thank you for your lengty response. Very helpful. On 09/06/2015 03:38 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

Yes and I have it running on equipment that makes that look like a bleeding edge speed daemon!

Perhaps I've mentioned that my system is not really naturally sluggish. My system is really fast enough. I just think the designers made some choices that caused 'embedded' delays in how you experience the speed of the system, some of which are caused by animations, some are caused by search, some are caused by hickups in the system they did not intend. My Linux is as fast as my Windows except for all those experiences of delay. Look. If I was in the position (see, I'm blaming people here --- Linux people). If I was in the position I would just devise a little run dialog box myself. I would try to see if I could integrate it with the search thing, but first I would make sure it pops up in a good location instantly, and does what I need it to do first - which is no search but just running. Then I would go and find out about that integration thing and try to see if I can decouple the search from the dialog as it responds to key input. I would make it asynchronous in a way. I would probably make it a horizontal box in some way with two rows. I would create two types of search results most likely: one that is the ultimate thing I need (have typed) in the horizontal cell right below my type field. That cell would be "that is what currently going to happen". So that cell is always going to tell me what is going to happen when I press enter. To the right of that, and to the right of my type field, are two cells with search results. The top search result is an application. The bottom search result is a location. This would be consistent. So there are three feedback 'inputs'. What is going to happen, what is an application similar or most close to what I have typed, and what is a location that is most close to what I have typed. I'm only bragging about this because I'm too stupid to live my life in a way that I can actually choose to create it myself. Typing the arrow keys then (pressing the arrow keys) would be able to select any one of those three fields. That would open the dialog. The dialog would have a dimension of about 1 vertical by 1.5 horizontal. Or maybe 1 vertical and 2 horizontal. I just came up with this on the spot.

For you with your 4G, possibly, but on this 1G clunker I have, I doubt it :-) and the bulk of 'caching' is likely to be the virtual memory dirty queue retrieval.

Right, well, I was not saying it was a problem with you. On my system, it can clearly not be a cause. Which is why I wonder why and HOW ON EARTH can the alt-f2 thing take so long at times.

HA BLOODY HA HA. You're new here, you don't know me and my demands of equipment. if you did you'd know that I make a hobby of retrieving old equipment from the proverbial 'closet of Anxieties', other people's discards, and making them shine. Stuff that could, perhaps, have run W/XP in its day but nothing later of Microsoft, but runs current Linux to do the kinds of jobs that people are spending good money on for W/10 to do 'chromebook' level work, email, web i/f for Facebook, some word processing. Web applications. And all at acceptable performance.

I mean high demands of the user interface. And, long since, it started with my experience of the load times of Opera browser back in the day (say 2007). The same program always started up about twice as fast (or maybe 50% as fast) (I mean 1.5 as fast) in Windows as it did in Linux. Too now. Whenever I start Chromium it takes a long time. Whenever I start Firefox it takes a long time. Whenever I start Thunderbird when it is already open it takes about 10 or more seconds for it to realise that it is already running.

And yes, all with an eye-candy GUI.

Sure, but I don't know what causes the delays. I don't think it is the downtime of processing speed/calculations. I'm not sure. For instance, I would have to dive into all the things that happen when alt-f2 is pressed. From the keypress to the application being launched (how is it being launched? Is it sitting in memory as a daemon process? Is a new instance run from the harddisk each time? Why does it take so long to respond?) before I could really form an opinion on what causes it.

And I don't do this lightweight; I consider things like LVM "normal".

:). I love LVM. I'm using thin volumes now. They wouldn't work in Kubuntu at first, because the package was missing, but it is installed in SUSE by default (thank god!). I don't like manipulating the partition table as much for regular tasks such as backusp; that's why I don't like the snapshot features all that much. There is such a big risk of ruining things. So I was writing an application in Bash that would safeguard against such mistakes. It would be my layer wrapped around the lvcreate and (!!) lvremove commands so that the chance of making any mistake would be reduced to zero. I guess I'm going to shut down my computer life now and try to live a computerless life again.

OK, on some mobos I have to use a videocard cos the video on the mobo is broken. Big deal, its another item from the Closet and no more bleeding edge than the original. Ditto Ethernet cards.

Sure I used to do that as well. There is a cleaner (janitor) here in this facility who collects old boxes and runs Debian on them. I don't know what he does with it, but it seems interesting and fun. It seems he creates clusters of servers doing something, not sure.

Many of these clunkers, like some I got from the School Board, even pre-date the Capacitor Plague!

Before 1999 (I never heard about it!) I had an AMD K6 266 MHz. Are you saying KDE still runs on it? I had given it to my then GF but she 'left my life' and took that computer with her. I REGRET THAT.

Some of us Greybeards have decades on you. That not to belittle you; its just a fact. And a property of that is that we have acculturated in a way that many things we do "by reflex" and don't have to think about it, so have problems communicating the keystrokes.

I don't think my problems with Linux currently stem from this cultural difference. It stems from KDE trying to do what Windows does but failing at it equally bad. I love the console, for what it goes.

There's an article I reference occasionally

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/murphy/why-many-mcses-wont-learn-linux/1137

Actually I only read the Nathan part. I didn't read the Paul part as it's so full of...well.. bigotry.

The take-away is that there is a BIG culture gap. its a way of looking at things, a way of envisioning how things work, and ought to work.

I know there is a culture gap and I could discuss this with you at length (great length!) but it doesn't mean to say that the "linux" culture is superior to the "windows" culture. (Mac culture is not even referenced, apparently). Let's just say that the Unix camp can be characterized by the word "scorn". I am not sure if there is a great difference between Unix and Linux. I only had one friend who used BSDs and I know not much abou them, except that they deal with security issues a bit more rapidly.

The questions you've asked, despite your clear enthusiasm and commitment, leave me with the opinion that you haven't fully made the transition, haven't fully 'let go' of the "other side" view of things. That's not a belittlement; I'm an immigrant where I live and I still suffer some culture-shocks. People say things in idioms I'm not familiar with. many accents still baffle me. I have different terms for things.

Thank you for your admittance and acceptance. That's the first time in the Linux world that someone has characterized positive traits of mine, that I can remember. But I seriously doubt that the current direction of KDE should be the "here side" of things. Search, my prominent and predominent hate, considers Baloo and perhaps Akonadi (not sure), but it also happens in Ubuntu (with the Dash) is the exact same cultural notion that has so sickened the Windows atmosphere and is continuing to poison it (with their Windows 10 "we collect all your data off your hard drive and send it to our servers and our partners) " .... and I have just never come across a desktop search feature that I liked. I cannot imagine how this is "Unix" culture. Of course I intend to create one myself, but I have so many projects and like I said, my life is quite a mess and I think I need to get out of it (and out of using computers in the first place). The way I use my computer(s), search (desktop search) works against me rather than for me. But Linux people (distro developers, and the like) don't give you the choice to turn off Baloo. You hardly notice it's there until it starts hogging resources or ruining your computer. So while you may defend Alt-F2, it just does what the Windows 7 start menu does.

But UNIX/Linux is a 30+ year culture for me. As I say, some things are so deeply embedded I'm not conscious of them. I edit in VI because my fingertips know it. Using this embedded editor in Thunderbird I have to stop and think about corrections, some of which are actually my fingers doing VI-like things.

It happens to me for a short while. I think I've used Vim since 1996 or 1999, somewhere there, but never learned quite much about it. I still almost use the same small subset of actions/commands that I did back then. I tried to search for more but it was too difficult and a waste of time. Now, since I am using Linux much more than in the past, I sometimes learn new stuff but not much. I tend to use "w" more rapidly for instance than in the past. "w" and "b". That's about the biggest change I've made since about 6 months of VIM usage.

Have you compared start-up by different means?

I've suggested alternatives to using the alt-f2. I admit I hardly ever use the alt-f2 since I have my system configured so my 'favourites' are more easily, readily available.

So why do you defend it?.

How does the start-up of kwrite compare ...

* from a command line in an kterminal * from gecko: Application -> utilities -> editor * from 'recently used' in the gecko menu * as a pinned 'favourite' in the gecko menu * as a pinned main item in the gecko menu * using the search bar in the gecko menu

Obviously the program launch speed itself is going to be the same from one option to the next. 1. launching programs from a command line (graphical ones) is troublesome because they leave behind residue output in the shell that you don't want. 2. I told about it in a different mail. 3. Never used that; I consider most of the "Gecko" menu (KDE menu) to be quite unusable. I only use the favourites and the search feature. 4. I use that but only to launch bigger applications like browsers, irc chat, email, sometimes dolphin, the configuration settings thing. I don't use it for smaller items I need to open more often or more quick. There was a time when I populated my Windows XP start menu (and Windows 98, and ...) that way. See, you could easily add entries to that menu as a user. So I created my own categories on top of the default thing, and put every important program in there. Then, e.g. to open Irfanview (the f... the image editor) no viewer..... oh it can edit as well. To open it I would press Win, P, I, I (for example) and it would select the revelant entry from the menu and open it. This is just an example, that is actually the default sequence for an Irfanview install. It is clear something like that doesn't work in KDE menu. Basically I could open every application in the system with a few keystrokes. Dependable and consistent. This is the 'cascaded menu system' (how to call it) that I still like a lot. A tree menu that opens on key presses.

and finally, using KDE to create a sidebar panel with favourites in the way that David Rankin described. You'd either going to have to ask David or search the archives. Alternatively you could experiment.

I may need to get into that at some point, I don't know. Thank you for the reminder.

Indeed, the only bound key I have is the one to bring the gecko menu up.

Hmm hmm. So we agree at some point ;-).

Not CLI?

You don't use the CLI in Windows to start GUI applications, except when you are in a CLI and you want to open a file browser there. Same in Linux I guess; opening GUI applications from the cmd line is often fraught with peril. I might use it to open a file with a specific application. I have managed to configure my Bash shell such that my "sudo su" root shells can now also open applications in KDE. Which is a default in Debian/Ubuntu, for what that goes... But you generally don't open GUI applications without arguments from the CLI. You are IN the GUI and you can just as easily (normally!) open them from there. The CLI, after all, is probably some GUI terminal window in your GUI system.

Until you're at least comfortable with CLI as a way of doing things, you're not fully acclimatized.

I'm not sure if I need to acclimatize, but just saying, I am probably more comfortable in the Linux CLI than I am in the Linux GUI. When I was consistently and solely using Windows in the many years between say 2004 and 2010 (with smaller periods of using desktop Linux) I was still always using Linux CLI at remote servers. I mean between 2004 and 2014 I guess. I have only really started using Linux again since this year.

I'm not obsessive about this; I think some GUIs are wonderful for doing GUI things like reading email and browsing the web and editing mind-maps and doing spreadsheets and presentations. Menus are good 'short-cuts' and I can offload specifics into them.

I'm just saying menus were better shortcuts in the past. We have seen a deterioriation.... what did that book call it? Regression. We have seen a regression in recent years as to how the GUI functions, not a progression. "It is the mark of a primitive mind to view regression as progress".

But expecting the delivered system to be smarter than you is drinking the proverbial Microsoft cool-aid. Microsoft is about learned dependency and learned disability. Their menu is a crutch and not an accelerator.

No, I am offended by it TRYING to be smarter than me. Providing me with search "suggestions" that I don't want. I want the system to do exaclty what I tell it to, nothing more than that (and nothing less). These GUI systems of today are much less under the user's control than in the past. I think you are a bit mistaken about Windows, unless you are mentioning Windows 7 and 8 menus now. Perhaps you've noticed that I am not much keen on Windows 7 "improvements" that went on in a much worse way again with Windows 8. Actually my position these days is that there is no good software anymore. I don't know what happened. I like ended up in a twilight zone. I'm not sure if you've seen that movie called Back to the Future part two. They end up in a different present after having made a roundabout to the future. That different present is where a different history has taken place; now the crook of the story runs things and is in charge, and the whole town has turned into a biker gang paradise. I experienced that deep alienation back on october I think when I went back to some place I have loved before. I have experience that alienation in a very deep since every since August of last year. I still experience it today, although much less ...acute or intense. Just consider the following example or allegory: "A system decides on its own when it is going to tell you things, on a rather random basis not based on user input." That is something I don't like. I want my system to be deterministic from my point of view.

...

I can say alt-tab is also not instant here.

The you very definitely have something wrong.

I do not consider 1/5th of a second very instant. When I keep alt-tab pressed the window changes are instant. It's just the popup window switcher that takes time to fade in in a very nasty way. I guess you can call that configuration. Seriously. I might alt-tab to a window instantly and it is the right window, right? So I am already done, right? But no, after my window is already visible, the dialog is still fading in. So, that dialog grabs my attention, since it is an event proceeding (coming after) (how to say that?) the window switch. Now I am paying attention to my cute little window switcher like it tells me to. And what does it tell me? I don't know, I can't really read it. It gives me the impression that I have more to do to reach my window. So I try to squint at it, all the while my desired window being visible behind it. So like I said, it is not really the system (hardware) being slow (or the software even, in this case). In this case it is just the design of the software being so off that it confuses me and interrupts my task instead of speeding it.

I have mine configured (thanks to 'systemsettings') to present a wall. There are also there keybindings to do 'next'/'prev' and some defaults for that. It depends how little you want to use the mouse. I'm getting the feeling you don't like to use the mouse.

What is a wall? Prev/next is just alt-tab and alt-shift-tab.

...

Thumbnails I can't interpret visually ;-). What's the use even.

Why don't you use the tools to adjust size?

What tools? I have no use for "Window" thumbnails (in the task switcher) whatsoever. What can a shrunk-down minitiature of a window possibly achieve?. I have currently turned off "Show selected window". That means the window is now not faster than the switcher, which ends the confusion. I don't think I can change the icons of the "Big Icons" window switcher. That's why they call it "Big" :P. Someone, create Medium :P. Why is there "too small" and "too big" but not "in between"? :P. Or maybe there is and I can download it.....

Oh dear. You seem to be stuck using an icon package that has only fixed sizes. There are ones that are scalable. Why don't you try those.

No, the window switcher sets the size of the icon that it scales to.

Of course! Those come with scalable icons.

This is Linux, not Windows. You get what the specific developer(s) decide. Some are not acculturated, some don't spend the time polishing their turd.

Yes it was quite annoying when TrueCrypt (now deceased, so to speak) only had this tiny icon when all the other ones did scale.

Opinion and acculturation. And besides, you can download more; I've mentioned this before. The wall uses BIG ICONS. (that's 'present windows)

I don't know. Like I said, I got myself into a kind of life where I don't really have time to learn how to use a system where every little bit needs to be adjusted to your preference or else it is unworkable. Currently I am achieving a high level of customization but imagine the horror of having to do it all over again.

...

The visual impression is that of an outline of a window being drawn including fill, and then that drawn outline being faded in. Title and buttons are having a fade-in here. The window is instant but the text and buttons are not, which is a visual effect of having to wait. It is not handled by KWin's "Fade" apparently.

What's your

systemsetting -> Desktop Effects Configure Desktop Effects

settings?

That fade thing was caused by Fade. The Window switcher Fade in was also caused by Fade. I turned that off now...... for the moment. There is nothing special in there, all are KDE defaults. Blur. Translucency. I don't know. Make a new user lol, it will all be there.

...

You know what I'd say to myself? Maybe you shouldn't be using a computer in the first place. Maybe you should stop using a computer for a while. Stay away from it for a while.

I've stayed away from Windows per Windows (except when an employer has given me a laptop with same to use Office/email and even then it might well have been Lotus Notes or something equally as weird) for 20+ years. I think I'd have real problems trying to use something like W/10.

I mean I have so much issues with so much software these days that I better just stay away from everything and.... do personal enjoyment things in a physical way for the coming 3 years exclusively.

...

If I'd then speak of designer incompentence, I'd say: you can't blame the developers for your life being a mess.

Or alternative blame yourself for dragging in and holding on to Windows concepts and expectations in a Linux world.

I have many gripes with Windows as well. I consider myself lost in a strange world.

...

Then I wouldn't need to blame anyone anymore for my experiences.

Why do you want to 'blame' someone? Why do you want to call designers 'incompetent' when they are just making different assumptions from what you expect?

Because I can't blame myself if I don't understand how I ended up here. Because my experience is rotten and something should cause it. Partially, hopefully, it will end up being my own choices of the present and past. I would call them incompetent because they don't understand basic usability principles. Not that the design team of say Apple Computers is so great about that, but at least they understand how to make things easy for a user, even if the Apple ecosystem tries to take power away from users by vendor-locking them into Apple everything. Or the other way around, it vendor-locks them by taking away power. Nevertheless, and needless, I know for a fact that if I were in charge, Linux would become a hundred times more user friendly in 6 months even if I had only a 100 people to command. It would surpass both Windows and Mac for everyone in ~13 months. I'm just that good but I also love doing it. I spend attention to detail and make sure the experience is just perfect. I notice all the peculiarities and things that don't quite work as they were thought up to be. I see what can change and I know how to change it. Usually -- I am not very good at graphics myself. I consider myself a bit of a layout specialist, even if my only experience has been GUI design in Windows using a RAD tool and the layout of some magazine that was published in a certain area. I just love perfecting layouts. I just stink at colours and all, being partially colour-blind. I am quite keen at home user d.. user interface design effects people even when others don't. I don't pride myself on being a Linux guru or a Windows guru or anything. I just go by with what works but I also notice people coming from Windows and I see their complaints and I know they are real. I don't like much of what Microsoft is doing these days and in the past I ridiculed them like everyone did. I had a website in 1996 or 1997 that only featured Microsoft jokes. That "Mike" that was reference in your ZDNet article. He was basically ridiculed by you, wasn't he? I didn't read the respondents (respondent's) text (that Paul something) but I know for a fact he was being... compared to an idiot there. And as long as you don't listen to your users, you won't know how to design for them. But I do. I always listen to any user interface complaint. Anything that is real, and most of it is. I don't remember ever hearing a complaint in my life that was off. Even if it is off you can probably understand it with a particular peculiarity in someone's physical constitution or past experience. And you can design around that.

* as a pinned main item in the gecko menu * using the search bar in the gecko menu

I am not sure what a pinned main item is as opposed to a pinned favourite. I also explained the search, it is unreliable. From a purely objective perspective you can say that it produces unreliable and unpredictable results. Not something I want in a computer system.

Example: I don't like driving in France. Its not that they drive on the different side of the road from what I grew up with; its not that the signs are in French. its that so many of the 'road protocols' are different, like the way they use 'roundabouts' is the exact opposite to that of the rest of the world; they have priority for enter rather than priority for exit.

Adapting to the different road protocols of North America was significant. Some of the things I've seen America drivers do, which they consider perfectly natural and reasonable, have freaked out my European sensibility about what 'makes sense' on the road. I've see it the other way round, too, American's having problems with the protocols of the UK and Europe.

That might just mean that you have a frame of reference and they don't. It doesn't mean that they would be equally freaked out in the same direction (that you came from). Perhaps they would have to get used of it, leaving there own (their) own way behind. But they would soon discover that it was better, more enjoyable. See, not all things are equal. The famous line (in my life at least) from Trigun's episode with the drunk gunsmith - "But this is not equal". That I still don't understand lol. Someone coming from a more functional way of doing things going into a less functional way of doing things, will never quite forget, it is impossible to forget the prior more enjoyable experience. He/she has a frame of reference that the people accustomed to the less functional way of doing things, do not have. However, someone coming from the less functional way of doing things entering a more functional way, will have to drop some pride. There will be ego investment in the less functional way because that ego investment was the only thing that prevented more functional ways of surfacing. So there is false pride here. He will have to lose false pride. Or she. That might be inconvenient but in the end it is felt as an escape and a release. A sense of "finally". Now that experience is the thing that tells you the truth. If your experience was not a sense of "finally" (as in your case with your migrations) then you were accustomed to a more functional way of doing things. And it will be ... you will be hard fetched to convince anyone of that, where you migrated to. On the other hand, just one simple example. An american (American) woman starting a bakery in my home town. Immediate bliss. Not entirely, not all of it. But certainly so. Customer service that I've never been used to. Immediate bliss. The woman offers to charge phones for people who see their phones running out. Never happened before in the history of this country. Someone actually offering a friendly service out of nowhere. She felt as though the local entrepeneurs that also ran shops and all hated her for being that, for being different. She experienced being sabotaged in certain things. Her land lady was the cause of that, I'm sure. Things are not equal. Going from an ego-invested mindset to a more liberal mindset is not the same experience as going in reverse. You will always find things in a new culture that are like "Hey, this is amazing!" and also things that are like "Oh my god, I can't see how they can stand this." See, functionality is not a subjective thing because the human being is basically one single operation that works the same for everyone. Feelings like "feeling hurt" or "being exalted" or whatever are common across all cultures. User interface design improvements can be common across all people as well. Usually you won't know what it is until you get it. Then you can experience it. Till then it might be hard to talk about it. Especially if you've been used to a less functional thing for so long that you feel it is like nirvana. How about a user interface design concept that made it into BeOS but never anywhere else? It is still in what they call Haiku. Can you discover it? It is prevalent on even the first screenshot. It is called (or could be called) "tabbed windows". Yes, tabbed windows. Not windows with embedded tabs. Windows that are tabs themselves. It was there long ago. Amazing concept, never seen it in action (for longer than a few moments). You know where I saw it in action? It was at a Unix Consumer group of the Hobby Computer Club in this country. They held meetings. I went to one. It was back in 1996 I think. I was 15. I just in general consider Linux people to be /low profile consumers/ of user interface design. User interface principles are not in high demand by the Unix/Linux crowd. That is all I can see and all I can say. To get back to this:

Not CLI?

You don't use CLI to start any application unless you need to run it from that directory (usually because of an argument to the command line invocation) because in Windows you have Win+R which instantly opens up a run dialogue with history. For example opening up an SSH session to some remote (or local) host is as quick as win+r, putty @alias and you're up and running. I find opening many or repeated ssh sessions in Linux very difficult. I can put aliases in .ssh/config, but I first need to open a terminal window or a new tab in that terminal window. On the other hand, Putty has a very nasty way of handling closed connections. Its user interface for saving profiles is also not exactly great or amazing. Nevertheless it is what you use. And force-closing an SSH session often means closing the tab in your console GUI thing. I didn't know about the CTRL-SHIFT-S shortcut yet. It doesn't show any shortcuts in the GUI as you hover over the menu items. A learning failure from the perspective of what would be possible given better design. So I don't know about you but I have pretty clear views of where it can go. It's just that most active Linux people generally respond with "You're a moron!" when you suggest anything. They talk about culture gaps when none even exist and when they are defending features that are being advocated by Windows in the first place. They will call Microsoft crap and then see Baloo do the same thing. Ubuntu (okay, it is Ubuntu) even sends your search data to some business partner. Akonadi is not all that great either and all the K..... I'm sorry, but to my opinion and impression and slight experience, they S. Everything that tries to use Akonadi I basically try to stay away from. It's just that it will uninstall KDE when you uninstall libakonadi. I put my hopes with Evolution but it's still not there, whatever ;-). Evolution, from what I've heard about, actually has an amazing backend that is just right. Self-developed and all. So I don't think you can really pin me on the Windows to Unix difference except that I don't buy into "read 100-page manuals before you can do anything". I mentioned before on the VIM mailing list. Even the help system is user hateful. I will not call it unfriendly. I will call it hateful. When ESC is the most dominant key, but F1 opens up a help screen that you have to escape from with :q (from what I know) -- ctrl-w-q is faster. It is not the most helpful thing. I open up help by accident so many times. Yes, keyboard with adjacent keys. Just one example. --------- I HAVE NEVER in my experience of using a computer used the F1 key on its own ------------ The only time when it was useful was with contextual help from some IDE. I have, in that distant past, always used some combination of alt-F1 or ctrl-F1 to open contextual helps. That was helpful. What person uses F1?????????????. In Windows it is the same (ha!). And Windows help takes so long to start, that everytime it happens you curse because you don't know how fast you can close it again. Yes I'll hear you say "but you can rebind the key". Jeez. Now I first have to learn how to use the help system, then I can use the help system to find the information I need on rebinding keys, then after a while when I understand it I can use the help system to turn off the help system. Great :D. If I need help, I will go to menu->help or I will search the web. I don't need a shortcut for that not-so-often-used functionality. It is contextual help that you want, not non-contextual. Anyway. I am just seeing that, as that Nathan wrote. Linux people are invested in things being HARD. They want things to be hard and to STAY hard. Why is that? It is past hurt. They too had to go through bagloads of pain to learn everything. Why shouldn't you?. They are of the opinion that their prized and hard-won position should not come without a cost or an effort. The status quo of things BEING hard has over the years turned into a perception that things HAVE TO be hard. That they, even more, SHOULD be hard. But this is not true. Things shouldn't be hard. It's just not true. Anyway thank you for the discussion. I am getting slightly ahead with shutting down my computer life. I am still retaining it, holding on to it. Making backups and all. Setting up incremental tar -g schemes and all. Rsyncing them to remote hosts that have 12 times more storage space than I have here. And all. Maybe one day I will delete everything. Months and months of work. Years and years of collection. I lost a whole bunch already anyway. It started I guess when Thunderbird cost me and lost me 3 months of email. Thunderbird is this nice application that has a corrupted storage "compress" algorithm that will just throw away email if there has been some slight corruption in its storage vaults. And then it will happily delete it from your remote IMAP server without notifying you that it's doing that. Real nice application, Thunderbird. Wish I could sue them. Anyway, I guess you'll see me for a short while more. Regards. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 12:13 PM, John Andersen wrote:

On 09/06/2015 09:14 AM, Xen wrote:

...

Thank you for your lengty response. Very helpful. I've found a way that I can make my system seem as slow as you indicate when using Alt-F2.

If you hit Alt-F2, you will (at least in KDE 4 (I'm using 4.14.9) see a wrench in the right side of the pop up window.

Clicking the wrench produces a list of plugins that will be used to perform the search. The list is rather extensive.

If any of these are internet related, such as the Wikipedia one, or Recent URLs, it seems to load and use those plugins, which can take a long time, depending on your internet connection.

By checking everything on that list, I can get the response to key strokes just as slow as you indicate.

Then by paring down the list to just those things on my computer that I want it to use, the key stroke processing is very fast. So Point One: Check the wrench, and turn off things that might be searching too far.

-------

Now, on to point2: I have turned on Desktop Search on my machine. (gecho, config desktop, desktop search). Baloo and ugly friends are running, and rather well I might add.

And further, I've edited /home/[user]/.kde4/share/config/baloofilerc to tell it to index a great deal of the source code I work with daily. Asside: Why is there STILL no tool to do this in yast?

Because of this I can type the name of some data element in Alt-F2, and have it find the source code file(s) that use that data name. Clicking any of those found entries opens up kate with that file.

Why do I mention this? Well in the list of plugins that Aflt-F2 supports, there is one called Desktop Search. If that is checked, it will try to use the Baloo file search capabilities. But if you have not enabled baloo, I think it falls back to something much slower, like "find" or something.

So uncheck the Desktop Search in your list of plugins for Alt-F2, to see if that speeds things up.

Much useful! Thanks! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 03:30 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

John Andersen composed on 2015-09-06 12:13 (UTC-0700):

...

And further, I've edited /home/[user]/.kde4/share/config/baloofilerc to tell it to index a great deal of the source code I work with daily. Asside: Why is there STILL no tool to do this in yast?

I'll hazard a guess: because yast is about global (systemwide) settings, while desktop search is DE-specific, baloo a Kwhatever thing.

Indeed, and like other KDE personal settings it can be turned on.off in 'systemsettings'. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen composed on 2015-09-06 13:03 (UTC-0700):

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

John Andersen composed on 2015-09-06 12:13 (UTC-0700):

...

...

...

And further, I've edited /home/[user]/.kde4/share/config/baloofilerc to tell it to index a great deal of the source code I work with daily. Asside: Why is there STILL no tool to do this in yast?

...

...

I'll hazard a guess: because yast is about global (systemwide) settings, while desktop search is DE-specific, baloo a Kwhatever thing.

...

Indeed, and like other KDE personal settings it can be turned on.off in 'systemsettings'.

And the window that allows this within systemsettings (or, as it is labled on my screen "Configure Desktop") would be a great place to be able to add directories you want searched.

Oddly, you can configure directories to exclude, but you can't configure directories to add, and it defaults to each user's /home directory.

I should probably send email to Will Stephenson, as his name is among the Authors.

That's a rather narrow target. I would think kde-usability@kde.org would be a better way to trigger useful discussion, if not just to file an upstream kfileplacesview enhancement request. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 02:52 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

The {*} might be "under ${HOME} but I'm not sure.

I believe it is rooted in each users Home. We use a separate code repository, and we mount that outside of each user's home and in order to index that we had to modify the above named file for each user's workstation.

There is also

Desktop Search Advanced

which does have an "include" as well a file name/suffix filter and MIME filter

Where precisely are you seeing "Desktop Search Advanced?" What version of Kde4 are you seeing that in? -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 11:02 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 09/06/2015 07:21 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 09/06/2015 02:52 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

...

There is also

Desktop Search Advanced

which does have an "include" as well a file name/suffix filter and MIME filter

Where precisely are you seeing "Desktop Search Advanced?"

beside desktop search.

...

What version of Kde4 are you seeing that in?

Irrelevant here.

This was a module that was mentioned here on this list .. last year? .. when people were complaining about this very issue. I grabbed a copy.

I'm sorry, I don't recall who wrote it, what it was called or where it was installed.

Perhaps this is it https://software.opensuse.org/package/baloo_kcm -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Thanks John, On 09/06/2015 09:13 PM, John Andersen wrote:

So Point One: Check the wrench, and turn off things that might be searching too far.

Indeed I can now no longer get it to start slowly :P. I never noticed. I don't know why I don't notice these things, it's just not the place I look for configuration... I unchecked almost everything, especially "run command line tool" which always made sure there would be a double entry for every program I wanted to launch. I also tried to move the thing about over my screen, but it turned the background colours from "theme supplied" to pure black. So that is not very helpful probably a bug. But I managed to slide it to the top left, which is already better. Shame, I really prefer it floating free, but not with the black. I may need to look into if there's a fix for that.

Now, on to point2: I have turned on Desktop Search on my machine. (gecho, config desktop, desktop search). Baloo and ugly friends are running, and rather well I might add.

Desktop search is turned on here (it is the default). I believe Desktop search was checked in alt-f2 (krunner), I have it unchecked now I think. Thanks ... :S. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/2015 06:06 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

So you're getting the idea that you are SUPPOSED to do heavy customization of Linux to get it to how you want.

Supposed by whom? And for what reasons? Who are they working for?

The "one size fits all" "the distributed settings are ideal for everyone" attitude of Microsoft and their paternalistic "we know what's good for you" attitude simply doesn't apply here.

You're saying you're not telling me what's good for me right now? You keep telling me that what's good for me is to invest momentous amounts of time and energy in getting the configuration I want. You're effectively saying that that's good for me. Stop being so 'paternalistic' then ;-). You're making the same mistake that Microsoft ever made. Microsoft says "It has to be left." You say "It has to be right." But the user is left dangling.

Linux is not a "Nanny State".

No you people apparently make it a disaster state on purpose, for the sole purpose of then having the experience of making your way out of disaster mode. There was a game on the Megadrive/Genesis that was called Fatal Rewind. You are thrown in a pit in some kind of survivor suit/robot/mechanical motion device and within a few seconds the pit starts filling up with poisonous fluid. Your goal is to make it out of the pit alive. You're saying that linux is supposed to be one of these pits and once you make it out alive you can claim honour or at least some kind of superiority to those who haven't made it out. There is a similar reference in the fantasy series by Weis & Hickman, Death Gate.

In Systemssetting you can turn on or off a lot of 'eye-candy' Some of the eye candy such as style -> fine tuning can have great impact.

Most of these settings pertain to specific moments, such as what happens on log-in, or when you press ctrl-alt-del, that sorta stuff. Most of it is irrelevant for this discussion at this point.

See also Desktop Effect -> Advanced to tune your graphics subsystem for the particular graphics card and library that is most effective in your specific context.

I know, the openGL stuff.

Turn off everything in Desktop Effects -> all effects except the things that a) you understand b) absolutely need

I don't think that's necessary. If it was necessary, they shouldn't include it by default.

That might be

+ ONE and only one item from "Window management"

+ Support for screenshots so that we might be able to help you in some circumstances

Any other of this eye candy is going to take computational power.

I seriously don't see how you can call any of that "The Unix culture" or whatever. Either they produce extremely bad defaults, or include way too much garbage, and most of it is (currently) related to the GUI that really has no bearing on pre-pre-pre-pre days. Packaging is the task of the developer/creator/maintainer/whatever. SUSE packages RPMs, rightly so, because otherwise it would become unworkable for all users. Your arguments that all users "should" or are "supposed" to do all of the end-user fine-tuning could equally be extended to "the user is supposed to make his package selection by himself" to "the user is supposed to package all programs himself" or whatever. You can see how ludicrous that would be. That means it is a flawed notion. Of course you centralize these efforts so everyone can benefit from it. That doesn't mean configuration should be impossible. In the Windows land much configuration is impossible. You cannot change anything about the defaults. The defaults used to be alright for quite some time, but they are not any longer. You are confusing "there are no configuration options" with "the defaults have to work for everyone until the end of time." Just because Windows generally doesn't offer any customization of many things, doesn't mean you have to go the other extreme: offer any and all configuration options but make the defaults so bad that everyone HAS to configure. Windows: no one has to configure anything Linux: everyone has to configure everything. Don't you think there would be a middle ground in this? Stop being so extreme about everything. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/2015 07:11 PM, Daniel Bauer wrote:

My linux email client is terribly slow. Every time I check mail I get approx. 10 looooong messages with the subject line "Why do I feel that KDE is slow".

Not only this. Those ignorant developers missed to include a filter that per default ignores this kind of messages. Now I have to enter manually a filter to put them to trash, must search where the filter is (in system settings? a CSS file? Some wrench symbol that doesn't look like a button?). I am sure, Windows would have deleted them before they even arrived, because their developers think and know what the users want!

I don't know, if I can go on using Linux!

Poor guy. Someone should pat your head and tell you a nice story. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/2015 12:55 PM, Xen wrote:

You're saying you're not telling me what's good for me right now?

You keep telling me that what's good for me is to invest momentous amounts of time and energy in getting the configuration I want.

are you trolling? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/2015 07:23 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:

On 09/07/2015 12:55 PM, Xen wrote:

...

You're saying you're not telling me what's good for me right now?

You keep telling me that what's good for me is to invest momentous amounts of time and energy in getting the configuration I want.

are you trolling?

Why? Are you saying this is not what he is advocating? I'm clearly not getting to be served in my desires, wishes or wants. The blame against Microsoft is that they are not seeing their users for who they are, namely as people who might want something different than the default. Microsoft is said to think to know what's best for their users, when that is not really the case. But now I'm here and I say I want better defaults. But now Anton says that I'm supposed to invest a lot of time in getting the configuration I want. Is that what I want? Are you not making the same mistake Microsoft is making, only at the other extreme?. Why should it be required of me to put in all that effort just to be able to use the software? Why should I be /supposed/ to put in all that effort? Why? For whom?. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/2015 01:32 PM, Xen wrote:

But now Anton says that I'm supposed to invest a lot of time in getting the configuration I want.

No I'm not and if you keep attributing to me what I do not say I'll take the matter up with the list manager. You're as bad a politician. I'm suggesting making changes that are adequate to relieve your discomforts as and when you encounter them. If that seems a lot to you its because you've been stacking up a lot of discomforts instead of quietly fixing them as you meet them. I bet you do housecleaning and laundry like that; wait until you have zero clean clothes and then do about 10 loads of laundry al at one. Small changes are less entropic. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/2015 02:02 PM, Xen wrote:

Heavy customization takes a lot of time.

None of what I've discussed, John has discussed, is "heavy". its all quick and easy. You're a troll. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/2015 02:37 PM, Xen wrote:

...

You're a troll.

You're a nobody you're the one using the alias. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Okay I finally get to your long mail, Anton. On 09/06/2015 09:36 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 09/06/2015 12:14 PM, Xen wrote:

Its more likely that, since you won't tell us the specifics, that you've selected 'eye candy' options that are sluggish. There could be many reasons for this. File system layout//lack of indexing//lack of search caching. Graphics that take time to render/resize.

KDE is very tempting about eye-candy.

If this is still about the speed of the Alt-F2, I think mr. John Andersen solved that for us? I turned off Fade and made sure Windows are not shown together with (or before/ prior to) the task switcher itself. Now a) the delay in showing the task switcher is gone, and b) it doesn't confuse anymore because the task switcher won't be grabbing attention caused by its later appearance. My task switching has now improved by a 200%, thanks to you (and John).

Since you don't give details and don't report on the 'alternatives' I've suggested, there's no way any of us can meaningfully comment.

That's not true, John commented meaningfully by giving details about the configuration of alt-f2 that I was not aware of (stupid me?).

So long as you refuse to give details of wht eye candy you have, what those alternatives are like, you're jsut baiting, little more than a troll.

I told you about the alternatives. I'm not sure what you want. They are not better than what I have now (alt-f2). I would never use them. What information do you want, and for what purpose? To troubleshoot the alt-f2 problem? I cannot meaningfully test in terms of speed the other options. Clearly, if I'm in a CLI and I'm in a window belonging to my default user, typing "kwrite" is very fast. I have to make it "kwrite &" though. But clearly, those other solutions are equally as slow when coming from a GUI environment. Again, I just did "alt-f1, kwrite, enter" and it did not register the enter. I'm not sure what data you want. Alt-F1, type, enter is about as fast as Alt-F2, type, enter, particularly since their animations take about as long, but I prefer alt-f2 in that case. In any case the speed is divided into two parts: - time to get to the point of executing kwrite - time it takes for kwrite to load Part number two is going to be equal for all methods.

Comparing Windows running insecure at ring zero with linux running securely and with security checks in place (such as apparmour) that Microsoft won't allow, your comparing a 1960s Lotus Elan with a 21st century mainstream sedan.

I'm not sure if kernel dynamics have an issue here. I barely know what ring zero means. I never did code protected mode assembly, only real mode.

...

Sure, but I don't know what causes the delays. I don't think it is the downtime of processing speed/calculations. I'm not sure. For instance, I would have to dive into all the things that happen when alt-f2 is pressed.

*sigh* Since you refuse to compare it with the other methods I've suggested this thread of argument is pointless.

Again, John was able to provide meaingful feedback without going into those comparisons, because he knew about the config options of krunner. I'm sorry I didn't see those options myself.

Yes, I've been saying ths all along. The 800Mhz.1G clunkers run KDE quite acceptably.

I wish I still had my 800 Mhz Duron, but I 'threw it away' to make space. I still have the (a) enclosure. It seems to be that when you get older, you start to notice how much your youth meant to you. Crying here. I thought about getting back an equivalent system. Those old motherboards are still for sale as complete systems. You buy a complete system and then just take the mobo and cpu out. Whatever. Barely nobody sells it as separate components still. But it will not ever be the same. My motherboard was Abit KT7a or without the a.... after that I had to replace it with some MSI thing I think. Same chipset. I just loved that device. Afterwards I put in a sempron 2600+ I think I still have that cpu. I also still have memory. But the Duron was my most loved cpu, I love my current Athlon as well. It's just something that's been with you for a long time. You've put so much love into it. Same with the K6 266. I couldn't care much about my earlier computer(s) though.

This is why I'm convinced you have a configuration problem. This is why I think you are wrong to be blaming the KDE designers.

But you won't give details or run comparison test.

Well, I consider the configuration problem (so to speak) that I had (and I still don't like it since the free-float option is bugged, and in any case) which was the default configuration for KDE, I consider that to be a fault of those designers. That krunner plugin list must be about 30 plugins and 20 of them at least are loaded. The only one I have left now is "run console application" since that doesn't even produce a search result list :D. A new user won't be able to use all those plugins anyway, because it is not apparent what they do or how you can use them. So if only an advanced and learned user can make use of them, but that advanced or learned user is also the one who can turn them on or off, shouldn't the default be suited more for a non-learned user? I mean, personally I don't like seeing long lists of applications etc. being filtered in real time when I'm just typing my regular app name. It has no purpose for me. I'm not intending to use search. I'm intending to use command-line-execution or at least program-execution by name. So by turning off ALL plugins except one, it now kinda does what I want. If I want it any better I will have to develop it myself. (But where's the time).

Others of us, not least of all me and the 'clunkers' from the proverbial Closet of Anxieties are finding KDE doing it all quite well and not encountering the delays you talk of.

Well apparently because you've gone through the length of changing the defaults. Hunting for options. Say, what will this do? Often it is not clear what some option is going to do until you try it.

You keep harping back to Windows: windows does this, that. Windows is a different architecture. It has specifics for the Intel architecture like running non kernel stuff at ring zero (aka hardware high privileged mode), which is security nightmare.

It is not about kernels man! I'm just using it as a frame of reference. Frames of references just tell you that there are other ways of doing it. It means there is perhaps a better way that what you are used to. Or it means a more functional, efficient way exists. It gives information, knowledge and insight as to what's possible and what has already been achieved in the past.

...

Actually I only read the Nathan part. I didn't read the Paul part as it's so full of...well.. bigotry.

Yes, so?

I thought you intended me to read the Paul part, so I was just indicating that I didn't.

...

I know there is a culture gap and I could discuss this with you at length (great length!) but it doesn't mean to say that the "linux" culture is superior to the "windows" culture. (Mac culture is not even referenced, apparently).

The issue isn't about superiority. its about different assumptions about how things work, should behave. its about perceptions.

You keep going on about Windows does this, does that. you're still stuck in Windows culture.

That you think the "Paul' side is bigoted as opposed to simply saying "this is the way UNIX people see things" tells me that you don't see things the way UNIX people see things.

So that sums up the roots of your problem.

That can only be the root of my problem if the "way UNIX people see things" is in some way superior, at LEAST as regards or pertains to the using or working with or living in that unix world. Superiority of course should always be qualified. Something can only be superior as regards or relates to a certain, or specific goal. Now I do not think and I know for a given that "seeing things the way UNIX people see things" will not solve my problems. They will only create more, because I cannot achieve my life goals (or my programming/computer goals in any case) doing it the UNIX way. If I were to do it the UNIX way, I would only be a clone of everyone else and achieve what everyone else achieves or is achieving (or the lack thereof). I don't want to be a borg, you know. I don't want to be an ant running along in this ant-hill. Become some worker bee or ant for the great ant or bee hyve colony. I'm saying that "Windows people" have something to offer just as when some Mac user indicated that not being allowed to rename an open file, is ludicrous. To windows users. The UNIX WAY produces a lot of wasted time and effort. I don't want that. I'm trying to work together with people and not have to do the same work they have done before. Also when I develop myself I try to ensure that those who come after me don't need to do the same nasty stuff I have had to do. I am not sure if that is the Unix way but it is the Open Source way that produces a lot of wasted effort. I will say that out of every 100 hour spent on open source, 90 are readily wasted because they go about doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. Even one person doing it right will produce much more wonder than a million doing it wrong. So I'm not doing it the Unix way because the Unix (or OSS) way is precisely what causes me to lose so much time. And if they get their way, they will continue to cause everyone a great deal of wasted time. I'm trying to change that, in my ... mediocre way. I'm hoping that one day people will assume that a time good spent is a time spent in such a way that another won't need to spend that same time doing the same thing.

...

The way I use my computer(s), search (desktop search) works against me rather than for me.

True for many people including myself.

Sweet.

...

But Linux people (distro developers, and the like) don't give you the choice to turn off Baloo.

You are misinformed. There is s way to turn it off. Its documented. its been discussed in this list. Its there in systemsettings.

So I was wrong. I'm getting misinformed about a lot of things. Not by any people misinforming me. I just have been too busy to look into it seeing as that I'm spending my time on all the other stuff I need to change about that system. I hadn't come down to checking whether that Baloo could be turned off easily and what would be the consequences. I'm still not sure about the consequences. The user interface doesn't inform me. There is also no visual indication of Baloo running; if it was such an important part of the system there should at least be a monitoring applet with options. Okay Windows doesn't have it either, what do I care. Windows is not great. Not anymore, at least. Without that "Advanced" tool of yours you can also not really learn what Baloo is in fact indexing. Even you people didn't know for sure. Don't you think that is some important piece of information users should have? Maybe I should be talking to KDE devs, but since you apparently seem to represent them in some way, as advocates or salespeople of the unix world/crowd/culture, I can also talk to you and maybe you will change things ;-). Who have already configured their systems and can actually use it for their work.

I'm not defending anything here except a methodology; I'm saying there are alternative ways to start programs and before condemning alt-F2 as slow you need to establish a comparison with the other methods. You seem to be studiously avoiding doing this.

If the other methods were equally as slow or slower (which they are/were) (are mostly) then obviously there is not any one good method. What were you trying to do? Fix me up with some lesser solution? If krunner doesn't do what it's supposed to do, then it needs to be fixed in some way, not worked around. I had asked whether there was a real alternative to that precise thing. Nobody really responded with a suggestion. You'd think there'd be some alternative program that does what krunner does only better, but I surmise it doesn't exist.

...

Obviously the program launch speed itself is going to be the same from one option to the next.

No, its not obvious.

Why not? You think other methods do a form of caching? That is ludicrous. These are all simple tools, they do not run kwrite-launch-servers or anything. The way jEdit does.

...

1. launching programs from a command line (graphical ones) is troublesome because they leave behind residue output in the shell that you don't want.

Right, so you run with all system logging turned off. perhaps?

This is a puerile excuse.

Wuh?

The issue isn't lifetime CLI, its performance comparison.

Performance of what? You still haven't answered that.

You obviously are unwilling to compare alt-f2 with a CLI start. What's tour real reason?

pressing enter after I have typed "kwrite" in alt-f2 will achieve the same as pressing enter in a CLI. Actually, now that I'm trying it, kwrite from the CLI doesn't do anything. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It just took 15 seconds. Now that that is out of the way, kwrite start is almost instant. Actually running it from alt-f2 seems to take longer. I don't know what's the difference, but it shows that jumping icon and just takes a bit longer. I guess you were right that there was or could be a slight difference. I don't know. Maybe krunner does even more stuff behind the scenes than I suspected. In any case you could have run those tests yourself as well. Launching kwrite from Alt-F1 (gecko new menu) is also slightly faster than from alt-f2. Weird. kwrite from favourite in gecko new menu, is same startup time as from typing it in search of alt-f1. CLI is not instant but let's say it takes half a second. That is the minimum from what I see. Alt-F1 adds a little bit to it (not much) maybe it is exactly the same I just get thrown off by the added icon. alt-f2 seems to be slightly longer but I might also get thrown off by the jumping icon. In any case the different methods do not produce such a diverse result as that any one would be superior to the other just by measure of its actual startup time.

...

3. Never used that; I consider most of the "Gecko" menu (KDE menu) to be quite unusable. I only use the favourites and the search feature.

What you consider your likes and dislikes is beside the point when doing comparison testing. The issue is to cover all contingencies.

For what reason? I won't use those other methods anyway. The method of access is more pertinent or important or of interest than the actual program launch.

...

4. I use that but only to launch bigger applications like browsers, irc chat, email, sometimes dolphin, the configuration settings thing. I don't use it for smaller items I need to open more often or more quick.

Again, that's a cop-out. This is a comparison test.

Buh, I don't know why or what you're trying to do.

...

...

Not CLI?

You don't use the CLI in Windows to start GUI applications, except when you are in a CLI and you want to open a file browser there.

Again, beside the point. This is abut comparison testing.

Same, you never explained yourself. What is your hope, that once you have the data you can give me a suggestion?

The windows shell is quite conceptually different from the UNIX shell. Under UNIX the shell and mastery of same is key to getting things done. The Windows shell is a holdover from the days of DOS and is poorly integrated.

"Scripting", be it the shell, be it VIM, be it darktable, is where the real power of UNIX/Linux lies.

Well that's why I like Linux.

...

Same in Linux I guess; opening GUI applications from the cmd line is often fraught with peril.

NOT! very very NOT!

In many cases the CLI or its embedded equivlent is the only way to get at the full power of a GUI application.

That is at odds with being a GUI application. Of course there are sometimes command line options. They should be kept to a mininum.

Heck, even when confiuguring the system for MINE dispatching, even the core of systemd units, all this uses CLI/shell notation & syntax.

I don't know what that is to do with GUI....

...

What is a wall?

Its where the various processes are presented in an array like bricks in a wall. Nice big icons. Scaled so that they, togehter, fill the "lightbox'-like popup area. More processes, smaller icons.

All this set up in systemsettings.

Okay.

...

...

Why don't you use the tools to adjust size?

What tools? I have no use for "Window" thumbnails (in the task switcher) whatsoever. What can a shrunk-down minitiature of a window possibly achieve?

A shrunk down miniature of a larger image takes CPU power to resize.

I have issues with sizes being too high or too low, not that they take time to resize. Besides, scaling SVG shouldn't really take time. And I think you can neglect anything else, I think it is neglectible.

If your icon set is all large (e.g. 64/128) then scaling them down to 16x16 pixels or smaller takes CPU power.

Fonts take scaling and if you have many fonts or use fancy fonts that are more CPU intensive to scale .. well you figure out why eye candy takes power.

No, I'm sorry, I'm too stupid for that.

...

Someone, create Medium :P. Why is there "too small" and "too big" but not "in between"? :P. Or maybe there is and I can download it.....

yes you can download them, either from the repositories or from many other places like KDE-Looks

I did spend some time before getting other window switchers. I don't remember, it is some time ago. It's the sort of stuff you don't want to do again. Again, it is not even about icons, but about the window switcher that is just not well developed. I can't help that. Right now I'm reasonbly content with "Big Icons". Instead of offering "Big Icons" and "Small Icons" they should just allow you to set a size....

...

...

Oh dear. You seem to be stuck using an icon package that has only fixed sizes. There are ones that are scalable. Why don't you try those.

No, the window switcher sets the size of the icon that it scales to. Ultimately any icon, and bit array, is re-scalable, but some packages have descriptors, such as vectors, that make the resizing easier. BitMapped icons, which are most icons, most images, are not designed for re-scalability. Many are designed for compression, things like run length coding of the bit array.

It isn't about the icons. It is about the window switchers being offered. That stands almost orthogonal to icon sizes. The window switchers have a fixed size.

...

I don't know. Like I said, I got myself into a kind of life where I don't really have time to learn how to use a system where every little bit needs to be adjusted to your preference or else it is unworkable.

its your decision that

a) the defaults are unworkable for you even though they are workable for so many other people

I think you have never yet heard of a person who couldn't use Linux?

b) you are unwilling to customise even if it will save you time and/or grief/heartache later on

Look, buster, I am already spending all my waking hours trying to adjust this system, I was just asking for some help. Or at least all my waking hours in which I can actually do something. That also involves writing backup scripts and all that. Trying to hunt for options in KDE is not exactly my most excruciatingly pleasant daytime activity. I have other stuff to do, but not much. So I have all the time in the world, and I still need help. I also need to relax now and then, but I'm not getting much of it I guess.

...

Currently I am achieving a high level of customization but imagine the horror of having to do it all over again.

Why would you do it all over again? What? when you upgrade? Move? Don't be silly. Exclude /home from the update. Take backups. I backup onto DVDs so its easy to restore onto another machine :-)

Erm. Well, yeah. My life differs. I'm currently backing up, or trying to get to the point of finally backing up, to ... I guess.. several different remote servers in the hope that one of them will survive the onslaught in my life.

...

That fade thing was caused by Fade. The Window switcher Fade in was also caused by Fade. I turned that off now...... for the moment. There is nothing special in there, all are KDE defaults. Blur. Translucency. I don't know. Make a new user lol, it will all be there.

Turn all that eye-candy off.

I won't. Transparent windows are unworkable without blur, and they are nonexistent without translucency :P.

...

...

Why do you want to 'blame' someone? Why do you want to call designers 'incompetent' when they are just making different assumptions from what you expect?

Because I can't blame myself if I don't understand how I ended up here.

Seems narcissistic to me. There's and old saying

In the fight between you and the world, back the world.

Back the world? Never heard of that. It also doesn't resound as true in any case. I'm currently cursing at myself for a mistake I've made in the past causing a server that is running in my home not to be running elsewhere which would be a lot safer for me and which would have probably caused me to live abroad right now with about a 60-70% chance of that having been a succeeding thing. The consequences of that choice are starting to dawn on me now. :(. I broke my feet as the result of that choice, and that is the least of it. Yes I have two broken feet at the moment. :(. Anyway. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

I really want to send this only to Felix Miata but I guess I'm obliged to send it to the list as well. On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, Felix Miata wrote:

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3. Never used that; I consider most of the "Gecko" menu (KDE menu) to be quite unusable. I only use the favourites and the search feature.

There are two different Gecko menus. Which are you referring to? I use the one that more resembles the cascading Win9X menu, and the original KDE3 menu, rather than the XP and newer type (the one that slides sideways within a tiny screen area, instead of a tree and expanding branches).

I'm using the new menu. The old menu seems to go back to before Windows 98 or 95 and even then. I have been away from Linux for so long that I don't remember what is KDE3. I remember using OpenSUSE some while ago, I was in KDE then. My impression was actually that KDE was better than it is now. Even when lots of things frustrated me, so much that I had to stop using it because my mind couldn't cope. Or at least my brain couldn't. Not sure about the mind part.

...

I'm just saying menus were better shortcuts in the past. We have seen a deterioriation.... what did that book call it? Regression. We have seen a regression in recent years as to how the GUI functions, not a progression.

...

"It is the mark of a primitive mind to view regression as progress".

A big KDE problem as I see it is this twice observed discard of what went before in order to rewrite from scratch, the first time KDE4, then Kwhateverit'scalled now. Rewrites cause loss of functionality that time won't always cure. The people making decisions and doing the coding are not the same, and different minds reach different conclusions.

I never really witnessed that change from KDE 3 to KDE 4. I know I ended up in KDE4 when I installed a linux distribution last Januari. I considered it quite attractive but with a lot of usability problems, if I see it now. I'm not sure about going to KDE 3. There's a reason I'm not still using Windows XP... you know. The big shame seems to be that any effort directed at KDE 4 seems to be a wasted effort, or would be a wasted effort, even if all of regular OpenSUSE is still using it (in that sense) because all the development effort is now at KDE5/Plasma 5. Who are the people making the decisions, if they are not coders? I looked at the Plasma 5 announcement from last year (july) and I couldn't quite understand what they were getting at. They mentioned a framework rewrite for certain reasons, but the reasons really never became clear to me. It wasn't clear to me at all how an average user would benefit from it. At first I was a bit enthusiast about it and I have one Plasma 5 thing installed (in Kubuntu) but I don't really use it. I spend all my time in OpenSUSE 13.2 / KDE4 at this point. I sometimes observe the mailing lists of the Plasma and Kwin etc., those kind of development mailing lists. I do not really participate. It astounds me how complex and complicated their coding is and what difficulties they need to solve every day. I get scared away by it, for real, that much is true. However from the viewpoint of someone who would like, perhaps, to improve upon KDE4, it seems wholly pointless. I'm not even sure if any code would make it to anyone.

On the bright side, if you do prefer the ways of old, KDE3 lives on in the openSUSE repositories. It remains my everday DE workhorse.

Right. Maybe it's interesting, but it would mean a whole change once more (for me).

...

Actually my position these days is that there is no good software anymore.

What's good doesn't necessarily have to be discarded. I still use orphaned DOS software 24/7, and use OS/2 to run it. Linux DOS emulation won't allow SVGA text video to work right.

Like what? That makes me curious but also incomprehensible. I have no DOS software left, except for Borland Pascal, that I can really still use. Maybe games yes.

...

It's just the popup window switcher that takes time to fade in in a very nasty way. I guess you can call that configuration. Seriously...

Standard Kwhatever has bling enabled. With some video configurations, bling causes mind-numbing sloth. Good chance you have a hardware/driver obstacle to decent response. Bling surely needs to be turned off.

I'm not sure if I'm just not more demanding than the average Linux person. Perhaps some animation that everyone (or at least the designers) consider okay, is not okay for me. I'm not sure if it has to do with hardware.

In Kwhatever, from configure desktop -> display and monitor -> compositor, "Enable compositor on startup" needs to be deselected. Or, prior to starting the K*5 session, edit ~/.config/kwinrc section [Compositing] to include a line "Enabled=false".

I don't really think I want to turn the compositor off?......

...

I might alt-tab to a window instantly and it is the right window, right? So I am already done, right? But no, after my window is already visible, the dialog is still fading in. So, that dialog grabs my attention...

On the hardware/driver side, provide us output from 'lspci | grep VGA', and put /var/log/Xorg.0.log somewhere we can see it, web space, http://susepaste.org/, whatever. You may need to enable a normally unneeded manual X, cmdline or driver configuration that one of us seeing these will highlight.

Erm, okay. lspci | grep VGA is: 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07) I don't really like uploading my personal logs to everywhere. This "your logs are belong to us" attitude is not really my thing. But here is some output from Xorg.0.log: [ 141.494] (II) intel: Driver for Intel(R) Integrated Graphics Chipsets: i810, i810-dc100, i810e, i815, i830M, 845G, 854, 852GM/855GM, 865G, 915G, E7221 (i915), 915GM, 945G, 945GM, 945GME, Pineview GM, Pineview G, 965G, G35, 965Q, 946GZ, 965GM, 965GME/GLE, G33, Q35, Q33, GM45, 4 Series, G45/G43, Q45/Q43, G41, B43 [ 141.495] (II) intel: Driver for Intel(R) HD Graphics: 2000-6000 [ 141.495] (II) intel: Driver for Intel(R) Iris(TM) Graphics: 5100, 6100 [ 141.495] (II) intel: Driver for Intel(R) Iris(TM) Pro Graphics: 5200, 6200, P6300 Ah, you know, I can't care. There is no hardware issue.

...

... Blur. Translucency. I don't know. Make a new user lol, it will all be there.

Only briefly if you turn off compositing first thing on session start, then restart; or if you first perform the above mentioned configfile edit.

But I have no issue with these things and I want them around. I wouldn't want to use KDE without Blur or Translucency.

...

Everything that tries to use Akonadi I basically try to stay away from...

You sound like a candidate for a switch to KDE3 or TDE, a simpler life.

:). I also want to be where the development is. That makes it so hard to be with Linux these days. I don't like systemd, so where do I go? I haven't even learned how to work with sysv or whatever it is / was called really. Learning systemd seems to mean not learning anything. Perhaps I've said it before: And people may call this trolling, but it's true. If I were to show a girl a computer, I wouldn't want her to see OpenSUSE/KDE 4. From the Linux world, only Unity/Ubuntu, perhaps. But my order of appearance would be: - Windows 10, Windows 8, Windows 7, Mac OS something, Mac OS some other thing, Ubuntu/Unity, Windows XP (theme royale) -- after that it loses importance. I guess KDE 4 comes after, and I don't know about MATE or Cinnamon, nor do I really care. While KDE 4 looks nice, there are many things that are not right and a girl will just shy away from that. I want to present her something cool, but an OS where all the details are off, is not that. I now have a pleasant taskbar (panel), but some icons are way too small, others have bad colour/are unreadable, the calendar is dysfunctional, I'm still using Firefox which I don't like, the window decoration theme I've selected has icons which are either too small or too big, I can't adjust the location of the title text with sufficient detail, there is a missing property in KWin/Aurorae that I need for that. I wouldn't ever want her to see GIMP as it is, Krita is okay I guess, Calligra looks nice but it crashes all the time and has all these bugs, OpenOffice might be okay. Konsole has tabs that you can't see apart of each other; to notice which one is the active tab, not enough contrast no matter what widget theme I choose. I've never used Activities, I don't like it don't need it and it is just sitting there. KDE is still full of shortcuts that are hard to recover from. The krunner thing is not right at all, and it goes on and on. It does not live up to my standards at all. Perhaps I should be grateful that I can use it in any case, or at all. But. That doesn't mean it is suitable for the things I want to use a computer for. Call me a troll then, this is just my opinion. Some people think opinions and feelings are so unreal that they must be trolling attempts. I care about girls and I know what the teenagers are doing. I know I am miles behind them in terms of graphical skill and they are all using smartphones and tablets and whatnot for that stuff. These tablet apps are so advanced in getting cute stuff done that I can hardly begin doing that same stuff using general desktop applications such as GIMP with my limited skill. I think what they do in 5 seconds will cost me 20 years of GIMP study. That's just one part of it. Maybe I'm just sick in my mind for all who cares. I'm not a graphical designer and I am pretty much dependent on people who know this stuff for how my computer looks. Ofc my computer is important to me. Other people have cars, watches, clothes, whatever. I have computers and what I do involves computers. I want to be able to show what I do. The coolness factor has to be factored in. Compiling a Linux kernel in the days of old was cool. Using the CLI is actually pretty cool, especially scripting. There is not much uncool about scripting except for the incomprehensability. Everyone loves hacking and hackers, but they usually mean breaking into other systems. People like power and love power. A hacker is someone with power. But a computer programmer is also someone with power. If you can really make your system the way you want, and build up a toolkit around it that you can use to further your goals, that is in itself attractive. There is not really all that much attractive about the system I am using today. Doing stuff in the linux GUI is still so arduous (for me) that I am happier off in the CLI. But I do stuff in the Linux CLI that I would use the e.g. Windows GUI for. Not because the Linux CLI is more powerful, but becaus the Linux GUI is less so. I find that I barely do any file management in the Linux GUI; I hardly use Dolphin. People proclaim how great Dolphin is; sorry, I don't use it. But the CLI is very limited for easy file manipulation. I can do in a Windows GUI in 10 seconds what takes me 2 minutes in a Linux CLI. And it takes me 5 minutes in Dolphin and the like. So to speak. The CLI is really only great for scripting. So that is reason I spend so much time writing scripts: doing it by hand without premade scripts is annoying and tiresome. You need the scripts to automate the stuff that would otherwise cost too much energy. Once you have the thing automated it is nice and then it is more powerful perhaps than a good GUI. But mind you if it breaks. So configuring Linux involves a lot about writing scripts to automate mundane tasks. Sure, once you have it set you can do more than you would be able to do by yourself in some Windows or Mac environment. It would really be cool to have automated, incremental, tarred, rolling backups that are automatically propagated to remote systems. Once the entire thing is set I can cron it or start it by hand and there is no more worry about it. Cron is not really what I like, it is very primitive. I'd want something that could be set and managed and controlled and monitored and observed using a real GUI. I don't think it readily exists. That could still be cron, but at least it should not be about editing files. Even when there is no GUI I still don't like cron. The power of Linux is scripts, sure. But you also need a heck of a lot of it. Without scripts you are nothing, nowhere. I really like the skill I have acquired and attained in Bash, but I think it is time for something else again.

"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

I guess pleasant acts are the key to everything. Whatever is pleasant is welcomed. ;-). In Dutch it is more clear than in English. Pleasant means plezierig. Plezier is the equivalent of fun, but it is less about "laughter" than it is about enjoyment. You could say, anyone who is enjoying what he does and is having fun doing it, can only be welcoming to others. Something that is done in a "plezierig" way is something that is done by someone having "plezier"; if you have plezier it is plezierig, to others. What is pleasurable to you is pleasurable to another. Oh right, nobody wants to read this stuff. I forgot. At least, some person didn't and he thought it was true of everyone. I guess. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Xen composed on 2015-09-08 20:40 (UTC+0200):

...

On the hardware/driver side, provide us output from 'lspci | grep VGA', and put /var/log/Xorg.0.log somewhere we can see it, web space, http://susepaste.org/, whatever. You may need to enable a normally unneeded manual X, cmdline or driver configuration that one of us seeing these will highlight.

Erm, okay. lspci | grep VGA is:

00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07)

I don't really like uploading my personal logs to everywhere. This "your logs are belong to us" attitude is not really my thing. But here is some output from Xorg.0.log:

[ 141.494] (II) intel: Driver for Intel(R) Integrated Graphics Chipsets: i810, i810-dc100, i810e, i815, i830M, 845G, 854, 852GM/855GM, 865G, ... [ 141.495] (II) intel: Driver for Intel(R) Iris(TM) Pro Graphics: 5200, 6200, P6300

Ah, you know, I can't care. There is no hardware issue.

Xorg.0.log has nothing personal in it, unless you count the hostname on the kernel cmdline. As your edition omits that which might confirm whether you might have any hardware issue, I'm hard pressed to think of any more help I might offer to ease your pain, even though I have multiple machines with Intel 4 Series video. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/09/2015 06:08 AM, Xen wrote:

On 09/09/2015 08:32 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Xen composed on 2015-09-08 20:40 (UTC+0200):

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Ah, you know, I can't care. There is no hardware issue.

Xorg.0.log has nothing personal in it, unless you count the hostname on the kernel cmdline. As your edition omits that which might confirm whether you might have any hardware issue, I'm hard pressed to think of any more help I might offer to ease your pain, even though I have multiple machines with Intel 4 Series video.

The system itself is personal, because not everyone has the same laptop. Even saying that it is a laptop is in itself an information leak. I'm concerned that there are automated data aggregators that tie all of these things together, much like Google does. If you sign in with 2 diffent google accounts on the same IP-address, Google probably ties them together. There might be other parties that might be interested in even more data. I'm concerned that they are so advanced in this that should conditions warrant it, a complete profile of your person can be had, including the computer devices you use. Any form of public relevation of your computer internals is an information leak. In that regard. The open source promise of random people helping you with computer issues you did not really even ask for, and having to...

If you want privacy there is only one way you can get it. Never be born. To late. You've already blown that. Next best is to never buy/own _anything_. You've blown that one also. Own a home? everything about that home is public information. The sale itself is a matter of public record. Shop big department/chain stores? Pay by check sometimes and credit cards others? They link all your purchases and accounts. Have regular buying habits, a one pound bag of sugar every five weeks for example? After a while they know exactly when you will need sugar and can target you with an ad offering sugar at a sale price to get you into the store to buy more stuff. They know everything you buy and can track your purchases over time. Bottom line is, To Late! There is no such thing as privacy any more. We _all_ leave a trail of personal information a mile wide every day of our lives just by living. It's just a matter of how hard someone is willing to work to find out. All you can do is suck it up and keep moving forward. A moving target is harder to hit. -- A cat is a puzzle with no solution. Cats are tiny little women in fur coats. When you get all full of yourself try giving orders to a cat. _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Xen composed on 2015-09-09 13:08 (UTC+0200):

But to get back to the story at hand: I did not really request hardware help from you. I don't know why you want it.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2015-09/msg00157.html is why, where you complained about Alt-F2 behavior, and wrote "definitely a sense of delay everywhere".

There is just a 0% chance I have a hardware issue.

Until you provided some hardware info, we had no way to know any such thing. I still don't believe your chance of a hardware relationship is 0.000%. I have at least one machine with Series 4 Intel video that is noticably slower than both older and newer Intel video machines here. I subscribe to and read a lot on the intel-gfx mailing list. Series 4 covers a rather large video hardware ground. The Intel driver is loaded up with chip to chip specifics due to feature changes, absences, etc. Plus, it depends on shared and typically slower system RAM rather than dedicated video RAM. Then there's the relationship between specific hardware X configuration optimization. Different acceleration methods exist. Results among them vary by hardware, not unusually quite significantly. Some non-default configuration option might unleash pent up power. Or maybe for your particular chip, the default is sub-optimal and performance would be improved by overriding it.

I do not experience extreme lags in my system.

That contradicts my understanding of what you wrote upthread.

Any case, thank you for your help and your good humour, good will.

Just trying to help. Without mention of hardware, it's hard for googlers to determine whether any particular archive hit could be of use. Asking for Xorg.0.log when X sloth is a complaint is pretty standard in every help forum. If there was any real privacy issue routinely doing that, it wouldn't be so universal, or the content of it would be modified to reduce or eliminate it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/09/2015 04:40 PM, Xen wrote:

Also loading URLs from e.g. a chat client, does the same. You click a link and it takes at least 30 second for the page to load; but before it load it tries to fire up a new instance of Firefox, and after 10-15 seconds it realises that a new instance is not required. All the while you have one or two new window-tiles being active in your taskbar.

Yeah, I've seen that on occasion too. In a couple of cases, Ive tracked it down to a difference in the way the menu system launches a program, (the command line used), and the command line used by me (typing it in) or by the other program doing the launching. I haven't solved all instances of it. Other times I've found it has to do with software (Google Chrome, LibreOffice, etc) that are fairly large,and they take a while to find room in memory, (perhaps swapping things out). Then they finally stagger to their feet. (Maybe you don't see this with 16gig of memory). Once launched, subsequent launches take very little time at all, as they already have everything in memory. Of course this happens in windows too unless you boot up allowing those programs to load their resident part. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/17/2015 11:30 PM, Xen wrote:

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Always check correct driver installation.

Right. I just think it cannot be expected of any user to go beyond the correct driver, and also to specify any correct settings or peculiar options that the driver does not set itself. That should be the driver's job, you know. It knows the chipset.

Currently I am on Windows 10. It is blazing fast, on this same laptop. Animations are wickedly fast (they were also designed that way) and load times are very low, perceived load time is also lower because it seems MS Windows loads applications in stages, you get to see the window quite soon even when other stuff is still loading. Notepad execution is just instant, Wordpress at least still twice as fast as the best I've got from KWrite.

Well, I have wickedly fast load times with all applications, no complaints, kde is blazingly fast on my 7 year old laptop ... KDE3 that is... I've run both Windows 7 and various versions of linux on the box. The load time differences are pretty much 'nil', and in fact, in a pure systemd environment, I can boot in a fraction of the time it takes to load windows, including starting full bind9 dns, dhcp, apache, postfix, dovecot, spamassassin, etc. It all boils down to a good configuration. Where you can spend $100 bucks on an OS and then sit on hold for hours to get a semi-competent tech that can hopefully solve your issue or help you with a config, with linux the price you pay for the OS is learning how to configure it. Given the symptoms you describe, it sounds like there is either a display driver issue forcing all the rendering to be sent to the CPU instead of being handled by the GPU or similar generically used module or config issue that is causing KDE to spin it wheels on application launch. That is the best anyone can do until you can provide an actual error message or log file snippet hinting at what the specific problem could be. I don't know what kind of video chip you have, but make sure you have the correct driver for it. You can literally see a 100 - 500% improvement in desktop response on the video driver alone. Look at `/var/log/Xorg.0.log` along with `lsmod` and verify you have to proper driver loading for you video card. As root, type `dmesg` and pipe the output to a file and look at the system startup and see if there are any issues that stand out. You say kwrite is slow? Then open konsole and type 'kwrite' at the prompt and see what kde messages and warnings are written to stdout or stderr. If there are any -- post them. That's pretty much the starting point for chasing things down. There is no reason your desktop should be significantly slower than on Windows. Just the opposite is generally true. If your isn't, then it time to roll up your sleeves and work off a little bit of the cost of the OS ;-) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/18/2015 12:29 PM, Xen wrote:

Sometimes not having to do with KWrite at all ...............

btw , find ' leafpad ' handy lightweight editor ......... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org