Il 10/01/2014 14:40, C ha scritto:

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Rares Aioanei wrote:

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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:11:05 -0200 Marco Calistri wrote:

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As per the subject,

IMHO this is the list:

1) BLUETOOTH doesn't works completely

2) Power Management "sucks" with laptops

3) Totem warnings the user to download plug-ins which are not necessary or which cannot get downloaded and installed

I consider all the above as limitations in a modern O.S.

Sorry for my commentary!

Regards,

You didn't offer anything in order to receive help. What "doesn't works completely" even mean? What hardware do you have? What works and what doesn't? Oh, and PM sucks? How come ? What laptops did you use for testing? And finally, what's so bad that Totem warns users about missing plugins? Linux is all about choice, so Totem says "here, you need those plugins to view this file; do you want said plugins or not?".

Also, don't forget that it was well known, documented etc. that the Bluetooth stack was broken on release - particularly on KDE4. This was discussed, announced etc, along with the reason exactly why Bluetooth was broken on release.

C.

Yes I knew about that, but do you mean that broken stuff will keeps stay broken? Cheers, -- The Earth Alliance can't go around being the galaxy's policeman. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 1/10/2014 11:59 AM, C wrote:

f you want the details of why it's broken, and what will be done, read the Factory mailing list archives in the week or so prior to release.

If it's not yet working right that's probably because Bluez5 on KDE isn't ready yet.

Without needing a detailed discussion, which I can get by scanning the archives, Does it work at all? Or is Bluetooth broken totally until Bluez is fixed? Bluetooth not working at all would be a show stopper for my some people. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am 10/01/14 um 21:27 schrieb C:

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:12 PM, John Andersen wrote:

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On 1/10/2014 11:59 AM, C wrote:

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f you want the details of why it's broken, and what will be done, read the Factory mailing list archives in the week or so prior to release.

If it's not yet working right that's probably because Bluez5 on KDE isn't ready yet.

Without needing a detailed discussion, which I can get by scanning the archives,

Does it work at all? Or is Bluetooth broken totally until Bluez is fixed? Bluetooth not working at all would be a show stopper for my some people.

Short answer... Bluez5 works in Gnome, it doesn't work right/proper/easy in KDE4. You can get it working in KDE... one cumbersome workaround I use is to log into a Gnome session, pair the devices, log in to KDE4 and it will be working there too.

Any news about this? Is there a working bluetooth environment in SuSE 13.1, KDE4 now? bluez-5.8-3.9.1.x86_64.rpm is installed and on http://software.opensuse.org/package/bluez Also installed: http://software.opensuse.org/package/libbluedevil2 BR Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Il 10/01/2014 16:51, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:

On 2014-01-10 17:34, Rares Aioanei wrote:

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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:11:05 -0200 Marco Calistri wrote:

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1) BLUETOOTH doesn't works completely

...

You didn't offer anything in order to receive help. What "doesn't works completely" even mean?

It is well known that bluetooth doesn't work.

Usually when something doesn't' works, somebody try to repair it ;-) Cheers, - -- COMPULSION, n. The eloquence of power. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlLQS50ACgkQi4zJuA3lyFdvNACbBK8yxgAmIgzQK1GhJUXyFdgL oV4AoI3M0p1OlA7AUZr0T5USnlUioem0 =wi7Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14-01-10 02:35 PM, Marco Calistri wrote:

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Il 10/01/2014 16:51, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:

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On 2014-01-10 17:34, Rares Aioanei wrote:

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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:11:05 -0200 Marco Calistri wrote:

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1) BLUETOOTH doesn't works completely

...

You didn't offer anything in order to receive help. What "doesn't works completely" even mean? It is well known that bluetooth doesn't work.

Usually when something doesn't' works, somebody try to repair it ;-)

And in the real world of software engineering and maintenance, when it gets fixed depends sensitively on it's priority relative to other things that need to be done and the available resources to get it done, as well as how hard it is to fix. I do not contribute code or patches to any distribution of Linux because I know nothing of what rests deep within the bowels of the OS, or even the compilers for that matter. The programming I do is generally at the application layer. But even so, I sometimes feel sorry for those that do because their 'clients' seem to expect perfection and want every bug fixed almost instantly. I expect that, since the Bluetooth issue has been around for a while, it is likely a question of it being a hard fix or there is insufficient manpower to get it done, or both. I know I have a fair list of bugs I need to address in my own code, but I don't have the manpower to get them fixed, and there are a lot of big features I am expected to add which are of higher priority for the guys paying the bills. I'll give you three guesses as to what I spend my time on, given that fact of life, and the first two don't count. This is a community led product, so bug fixes and feature development necessarily depends on volunteers to do the heavy lifting. If there is something you don't like, help fix it; or if you don't know how, then contribute resources to expedite the process. If you don't do that, then one can argue that the issue at hand is not much of an issue for you, or that you don't really care about the issues you're complaining about. From my experience, OpenSuse 13.1 is a fine product. Generally speaking, it is as good as Windows 7, and before that Windows 2k, and much better than any verions of Windows prior to the latter, as well as Vista. I do not have, and will not soon have, a machine running Windows 8, so I can't make that comparison. I certainly like it better than any Windows Server version. For my purposes, none of the three things you mentioned are important as they do not affect me at all. I do not use those three capabilities. You have given a list of things you want to complain about. Why don't you also give a list of all the features that they got right, or that work better than most or all other available operating systems? It would be good to give the guys that work hard to develop this a pat on the back for the things they got right, as well as letting them know about those things that need to be improved (ideally without giving them a slap up-side the head for it). Cheers Ted -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14-01-10 03:22 PM, John Andersen wrote:

On 1/10/2014 12:05 PM, Ted Byers wrote:

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On 14-01-10 02:35 PM, Marco Calistri wrote:

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Il 10/01/2014 16:51, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:

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On 2014-01-10 17:34, Rares Aioanei wrote:

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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:11:05 -0200 Marco Calistri wrote:

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1) BLUETOOTH doesn't works completely You didn't offer anything in order to receive help. What "doesn't works completely" even mean? It is well known that bluetooth doesn't work.

Usually when something doesn't' works, somebody try to repair it ;-)

And in the real world of software engineering and maintenance, when it gets fixed depends sensitively on it's priority relative to other things that need to be done and the available resources to get it done, as well as how hard it is to fix. I do not contribute code or patches to any distribution of Linux because I know nothing of what rests deep within the bowels of the OS, or even the compilers for that matter. The programming I do is generally at the application layer. But even so, I sometimes feel sorry for those that do because their 'clients' seem to expect perfection and want every bug fixed almost instantly. I expect that, since the Bluetooth issue has been around for a while, it is likely a question of it being a hard fix or there is insufficient manpower to get it done, or both. I know I have a fair list of bugs I need to address in my own code, but I don't have the manpower to get them fixed, and there are a lot of big features I am expected to add which are of higher priority for the guys paying the bills. I'll give you three guesses as to what I spend my time on, given that fact of life, and the first two don't count.

This is a community led product, so bug fixes and feature development necessarily depends on volunteers to do the heavy lifting. If there is something you don't like, help fix it; or if you don't know how, then contribute resources to expedite the process. If you don't do that, then one can argue that the issue at hand is not much of an issue for you, or that you don't really care about the issues you're complaining about.

From my experience, OpenSuse 13.1 is a fine product. Generally speaking, it is as good as Windows 7, and before that Windows 2k, and much better than any verions of Windows prior to the latter, as well as Vista. I do not have, and will not soon have, a machine running Windows 8, so I can't make that comparison. I certainly like it better than any Windows Server version. For my purposes, none of the three things you mentioned are important as they do not affect me at all. I do not use those three capabilities.

You have given a list of things you want to complain about. Why don't you also give a list of all the features that they got right, or that work better than most or all other available operating systems? It would be good to give the guys that work hard to develop this a pat on the back for the things they got right, as well as letting them know about those things that need to be improved (ideally without giving them a slap up-side the head for it).

Cheers

Ted

Translation from the Ted:

Bluetooth isn't a priority. Fix it yourself. OpenSuse 13.1 is great but has some broken things. Never mind your problems, give positive feedback about all the things that work.

----end translation John,

You should know better. That is a wholly inaccurate and misleading distortion of what I said. For example, I never said Bluetooth isn't a priority, only that there are other priorities also and resources limited to the numbers of volunteers to get the job done. I merely pointed out a number of factors that impinge on how quickly or slowly bugs of any kind get fixed. I did not tell Marco to fix it himself, but rather to contribute to the effort required to get it fixed in whatever capacity that may be. Neither did I tell Marco to ignore the problems that exist, but rather, in a thread of the nature that he started, he may want to put the problems into context.

Doesn't matter how much flowery fluff you wrap around otherwise insulting and unhelpful suggestions Ted, they still are insulting and unhelpful.

At no point did I insult Marco, or anyone else. Asking for a realistic perspective that takes into account all that is right as well as that which you know isn't, is hardly insulting.

Bluetooth is hardly optional any more in the laptop world. It might be OK for a server installation not to have it.

Bluetooth is something I am not especially interested in, even if I am using a laptop (of which I have had several). Cheers Ted -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 5:23 PM, jdd wrote:

Le 10/01/2014 21:22, John Andersen a écrit :

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Bluetooth isn't a priority. Fix it yourself. OpenSuse 13.1 is great but has some broken things.

notice this seems to be a kde problem, not openSUSE, so probably identical in any distribution, what do not make it better...

Not really. It is a temporary Gnome / KDE incompatibility. Gnome moved to the new Bluez library before KDE did. openSUSE made a conscies decision to break KDE in favor of Gnome because they thought KDE would move to the new Bluez library quickly. Other distros might be KDE only, or they might choose to either keep Gnome at a lower release, or just be broken. Or they might have made some sort of kludge that allows both Bluez4 and Bluez5 to simultaneously. Regardless, you can't say that all distros have this problem. BTW: Fedora 20 came out last month and has Bluez5. Does it have a working KDE bluetooth stack? Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, January 10, 2014 11:23:12 PM jdd wrote:

Le 10/01/2014 21:22, John Andersen a écrit :

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Bluetooth isn't a priority. Fix it yourself. OpenSuse 13.1 is great but has some broken things.

notice this seems to be a kde problem, not openSUSE, so probably identical in any distribution, what do not make it better...

jdd

So far, in general terms, it is BlueZ5 version conflicting with the Bluedevil available version on KDE 4.11.x. There is work in progress to take the last Bluedevil. As soon as it is ready it will be pushed for updates. It does not depends on openSUSE developers or any team. It was known issue when openSUSE 13.1 was released. And it is specific to KDE in favor to GNOME. Sure you did not want to get an old BlueZ version when new version is already available and Bluedevil (Bluetoot KDE applet) is almost ready to deliver the new version in few more weeks. Conclusion: we should not blame our teams. If Bluetooth is priority stay on openSUSE 12.3 until 13.1 gets fixed and ready for your purposes. Fortunately, we have that option. OTOH, If you already are using 13.1 just few more days waiting could make the reward. For multimedia, purposes openSUSE 12.2 still makes my day. On the following oS versions the GStreamer transition from 0.10 to 1.x.x version has been too delayed. And it is on all distros and applications leaving many of them out. Sadly, we shall have an openSUSE 12.2 farewell soon and the GStreamer transition is not completed on all applications (many still using GSteamer-0.10.xx) Regards, R. Chung -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14-01-10 03:43 PM, Marco Calistri wrote:

Il 10/01/2014 18:05, Ted Byers ha scritto:

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On 14-01-10 02:35 PM, Marco Calistri wrote:

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Il 10/01/2014 16:51, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:

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On 2014-01-10 17:34, Rares Aioanei wrote:

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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:11:05 -0200 Marco Calistri wrote:

...

1) BLUETOOTH doesn't works completely You didn't offer anything in order to receive help. What "doesn't works completely" even mean? It is well known that bluetooth doesn't work.

Usually when something doesn't' works, somebody try to repair it ;-)

And in the real world of software engineering and maintenance, when it gets fixed depends sensitively on it's priority relative to other things that need to be done and the available resources to get it done, as well as how hard it is to fix. I do not contribute code or patches to any distribution of Linux because I know nothing of what rests deep within the bowels of the OS, or even the compilers for that matter. The programming I do is generally at the application layer. But even so, I sometimes feel sorry for those that do because their 'clients' seem to expect perfection and want every bug fixed almost instantly. I expect that, since the Bluetooth issue has been around for a while, it is likely a question of it being a hard fix or there is insufficient manpower to get it done, or both. I know I have a fair list of bugs I need to address in my own code, but I don't have the manpower to get them fixed, and there are a lot of big features I am expected to add which are of higher priority for the guys paying the bills. I'll give you three guesses as to what I spend my time on, given that fact of life, and the first two don't count.

This is a community led product, so bug fixes and feature development necessarily depends on volunteers to do the heavy lifting. If there is something you don't like, help fix it; or if you don't know how, then contribute resources to expedite the process. If you don't do that, then one can argue that the issue at hand is not much of an issue for you, or that you don't really care about the issues you're complaining about.

From my experience, OpenSuse 13.1 is a fine product. Generally speaking, it is as good as Windows 7, and before that Windows 2k, and much better than any verions of Windows prior to the latter, as well as Vista. I do not have, and will not soon have, a machine running Windows 8, so I can't make that comparison. I certainly like it better than any Windows Server version. For my purposes, none of the three things you mentioned are important as they do not affect me at all. I do not use those three capabilities.

You have given a list of things you want to complain about. Why don't you also give a list of all the features that they got right, or that work better than most or all other available operating systems? It would be good to give the guys that work hard to develop this a pat on the back for the things they got right, as well as letting them know about those things that need to be improved (ideally without giving them a slap up-side the head for it).

Cheers

Ted

Hi Ted,

I hope to be not intended as being just a rude complainer.

I use openSUSE, I think from version 10.3...

I had a deep doubt to switch to LinuxMint recently but then I decided to upgrade my openSUSE 12.3 to 13.1, this is a proof that I like this distro!

Also I think 13.1 being a good release but this doesn't means it has not defects or that users must avoid to complain about some bugs or malfunctions, nor that volunteers or even Novell affiliated developers could make it better than it is today.

I use to complain of things that for my usage are important.

May be for server usage openSUSE and Linux in general are definitely better than other O.S. but for laptop I feel it is still not complete.

Bluetooth and Power Management are two important examples of weaknesses that I see if I compare openSUSE 13.1 with Windows 7.

Regards,

Understood. The final statement in your first post in this thread "I consider all the above as limitations in a modern O.S." did give me the impression of relatively useless complaining. As others points out, in this thread, the Bluetooth issue is being addressed. And they have directed you to the right place to find out just how hard they are working on it. Others have also reported that they are not having the trouble with their laptops regarding power management that you are having. I did not suggest that users avoid making their troubles known, but surely the best approach is to first seek help to determine where the problem lies, and then, if the problem involves a bug in the product, file a bug report. As a software developer myself, I give top priority to those bugs passed on to me by customer support personelle (as they will have made an initial diagnosis of where the problem is), and then to properly filed bug reports. I have seen too many 'users' complain just for the sake of complaining and taking up the time of support personelle (one of my aunts included). Developers generally try to make their product as good as it can be, but face limitations of time and resources. That, along with the fact no-one is perfect, is why there are and always will be bugs in virtually every product that exists. Might I suggest you follow the resources other pointed you to to follow when the Bluetooth stack will be fixed and released, and start a thread to investigate your power management issues. Cheers Ted -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2014-01-10 21:43, Marco Calistri wrote:

May be for server usage openSUSE and Linux in general are definitely better than other O.S. but for laptop I feel it is still not complete.

Well, I just upgraded my laptop from 11.4 to 13.1, and I find that things that did not work previously do now, like suspending to ram reliably. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlLQdi0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xgnQD9FZJDmFnpWSIbr1UQd8mJm3eN Rtvf0o9B2u7MdC2h+XcA+wRqObSakQ1cEfNJZN2NhseMe2i4N5Vp2/4R4FgVgxam =HBlr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 17:58:18 -0200, Marco Calistri wrote:

Il 10/01/2014 17:35, Jim Henderson ha scritto:

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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 13:11:05 -0200, Marco Calistri wrote:

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2) Power Management "sucks" with laptops

Not here. It would probably be helpful to describe what you're seeing rather than making a broad, general statement.

I have a Dell N7110 (R17) laptop, and power management seems to be as good as it was on 12.2, at least.

Jim

Ok Jim,

I'm not spreading my comments "for free", the power management problem for my laptop (Lenovo Z470) is present since oS12.3 and I did already reported on the list (I should have opened a bug I know, but I didn't...).

I'm not sure how anyone was supposed to know that was your hardware without you telling us.

(My DE is GNOME)

As is mine.

I mean that I'm seeing the following:

1) When battery reaches critical threshold system doesn't' sent any text nor audio notifications (beeps)

2) system went no automatically hibernated

3) system went no automatically suspended on RAM

4) system simply shut-down and let me irritated

Again, no idea how we were supposed to know that this was what you were experiencing without you telling us that specifically. Those are only a subset of features of PM - I read your comment as meaning maybe that your battery life wasn't as good as you thought it should be.

Missing items 2 and 3 works only manually, both never worked automatically nor by changing the default settings with dconf-editor

Also the settings of power management, beside being not working at all are really hidden, especially for not experienced users.

The settings available in general settings menu are IMHO too limited to just few things.

That's specific and actionable feedback. I'd suggest searching bugzilla to see if the issues are reported specifically for 13.1 (or for 12.3) and if not, open new bugs describing - in detail - the problems. If you find it for 12.3 but not 13.1, then maybe comment on the 12.3 bug and say that you see this on 13.1 as well. That's how you get things moving. Not by e-mailing vague and incomplete information to a mailing list. ;) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org