[opensuse] some compliments
I just want to say that. I have been on the Kubuntu side for a while. They are very concerned with public image. But it's a bit of an Ubuntu thing. Even if Kubuntu is not directly affiliated with Canonical, they have this sense of "appeasing the novice user". Whenever you say or do something that they feel might scare the novice user away, they will try to shoo you. Even asking a question about the upcoming 15.10 release (due october) on the users mailing list will prompt a form of reprimand. You are sent off to the dev list, where no one responds. Because honestly it was a user question, not a dev question. I find that generally, of course, openSUSE is a much older community. Much better founded. But I also find that much more expertise exists here in this mailing list. The Kubuntu developers are small and many depend on Ubuntu for doing the right things. This being just a small offshoot makes life hard. Kubuntu has a tough time getting any form of wiki/website presence off the ground, I would say mostly for ill-understood reasons, directions, goals and intentions. Even when I like much of the ecosystem better (I mean apt and apt-get and apt-file and so on) I can only say that OpenSUSE does it way better in many many things. There is actually a community. You don't try to "convert" people as much. Kubuntu's have this sense that all Windows users must be converted. I feel you are more at peace with yourself. When I ask tough technical questions on Kubuntu list I get no answers at all. Unlike e.g. Plasma dev list, Kubuntu dev list is not high volume at all, very very low volume indeed. A rare development mail is sent now and then. So I like the peaceful attitude here. I will say again that the update process in Kubuntu is easier and faster, both from the command line perspective (apt) and the GUI perspective (KDE). The GUI updates installer is not very streamlined here. I see it is working now, it often seems to fail, I just thought it was not doing anything. I find that, if I may say such a thing here, the command line tools have better interfaces/options. I am getting used to rpm and zypper but it seems archaic and more difficult to use than apt and dpkg. Even the name "zypper" is not really pleasant. Even zipper would work out better for me, and still. "Zip" is obviously a bit difficult, but maybe I can alias it ;-). I find I am most disgruntled with openSUSE about the greenish 'scales' background that is pervasive everywhere. It is used as the background of the initrd boot thing. It is used as the background of the login screen. It is used as the background of the screensaver. It is used as the background of the desktop. And only the desktop is easy to change, to get rid of. I can't watch at the thing, I can't look at it. I try to get rid of it, even deleting some /usr/share/backgrounds or /usr/share/wallpapers thing and now I have a black screen at some places, and the other places still have it. I just don't know how to get rid of it or how to change it and it drives me nuts. I really like the OpenSUSE logo in KDE start menu and at the Grub boot prompt, that is really very well done. I think the "KDE DESKTOP" banner in the KDE menu is not very useful (at the top, in small). I have installed a different background and I wish I could use it for the login screen as well. I'm not sure about the boot thing but I want my own background for the screensaver as well. But with the "simple locker" you cannot choose yourself. Screen locking in Kubuntu has never been odd, I must say. In here, it's weird. The options don't match or don't work. I also want to use my own background for the splash screen that loads KDE. I haven't found the guts or the courage to look into that yet. In a good way, other than just, in my pain, trying to find the location of the files and deleting them. So perhaps I'm just peculiar in this but I really can't stand that background. It is really one of the most.. seriously. Kubuntu's 15.10 background is also not very good, much too colourful and in a bad way. If I'm not peculiar in this I can tell you that that background does not sell your system. Not at all. I think many people would run away from it. That's just the way it is. The fonts in KDE are also too small for someone coming from a Windows system. It is hard to see, after a while you don't notice any more but that doesn't mean the effect is gone. It is bad. I'm not so effected by it now because I'm running a Konsole full screen with large font. But most of the fonts are too small, everywhere, by default. There are a few other small gripes I have with KDE atm but I won't mention them here. Too distracting I guess. One really bad thing about KDE I want to mention. The language/keyboard selector in the system tray. You cannot change its colour, that is one bad thing. It conflicts or clashes with the theme I have and I don't see why it should not just be the same colour as the other icons. But more importantly perhaps. In a Dutch region at least in the Netherlands there are two keyboards you use: US and US International. But you cannot choose the language, in other words you cannot customize the name of the keyboard setting. So one is called "US" and the other is called "US" with a subscript of "2". That is almost impossible to see. Then, the key-combination for changing the language/keyboard is win-space, but that is a really hard combination to use/reach. Maybe after a while you get used to it. But in Windows it is left-alt + left-shift. The problem is that you cannot choose this combination in KDE. The software doesn't allow it. So this part of the experience is really bad. I am happy that the keyboard chosen is by default system-wide instead of per-application like in Windows. That is really bad in Windows, it is annoying or difficult in any case to remember which one you've chosen. But not being able to change it easily and not being able to see which one you have easily does not make it better. So Maybe I can simply "change" the key code by editing a file somewhere. Still a hack, but maybe good enough for me. Apart from that everything seems to work normally. In any case, I just wanted to relate some experiences apparently, and just tell you that I feel you are doing quite well. I feel you have a quite... maybe even a vibrant community with a sense of humour, the general atmosphere on this mailing list seems very friendly and even tolerant (weird word) with people not going up in arms over small things. In other words, a sense of peace, Like I said. Yesterday for the first time I forgot I was using Linux. That is actually quite an accomplishment and a good thing. I had been doing stuff, browsing the web, writing, writing emails, all that stuff, for so long without interruption that I forgot I was actually no longer in Windows (or whatever) and the experience was pain-free to an extent that I did not notice the system anymore. And it's really good if you don't notice the system because it means the system is getting out of the way and you can actually get some work done. So gratz for that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Xen composed on 2015-09-01 23:59 (UTC+0200): ... Which Kubuntu release are or were you last using? Which openSUSE release are you comparing Kubuntu to? If 14.10 or earlier is being compared to Tumbleweed or the Leap pre-release, many differences are on account of the changes between KDE4 and KDE5. Also, some KDE4 features haven't been retained in KDE5, while others are waiting on upstream changes prerequisite. openSUSE also has the opensuse-kde list, which might have been or be a better place for discussing perspective from a Kubuntu migrant. Personally, I like zypper a whole lot more than either apt or aptitude, or yum, or dnf, or urpmi, or any other packaging wrapper. :-) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015, Felix Miata wrote:
Xen composed on 2015-09-01 23:59 (UTC+0200): ...
Which Kubuntu release are or were you last using?
Which openSUSE release are you comparing Kubuntu to?
I am comparing Kubuntu 14.10 to 13.2. I guess the comparison that I made was not mostly KDE I was speaking mostly about the communities, but I was comparing two KDE 4 distributions.
If 14.10 or earlier is being compared to Tumbleweed or the Leap pre-release, many differences are on account of the changes between KDE4 and KDE5. Also, some KDE4 features haven't been retained in KDE5, while others are waiting on upstream changes prerequisite.
Aye, I know, I have a 15.10 Kubuntu now finally working (on my thin LVM; Kubuntu doesn't come with thin-provisioning-tools, you have to supply a hook to /etc/initramfs-tools/hooks and install the package).
openSUSE also has the opensuse-kde list, which might have been or be a better place for discussing perspective from a Kubuntu migrant.
Okay. Maybe that will be good to get some answers hopefully.
Personally, I like zypper a whole lot more than either apt or aptitude, or yum, or dnf, or urpmi, or any other packaging wrapper. :-)
I just think it takes twice as long to start and the output is not as elegant, but perhaps it is just personal preference or what I'm used to ;-). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/02/2015 10:43 AM, Xen wrote:
Personally, I like zypper a whole lot more than either apt or aptitude, or yum, or dnf, or urpmi, or any other packaging wrapper. :-)
I just think it takes twice as long to start and the output is not as elegant, but perhaps it is just personal preference or what I'm used to ;-).
As I've said, that show to start is because zypper is performing update checks and integrity checks behind the scenes. I value the overall integrity of my install. Yes you can bypass this by installing with rpm alone and some packages do that. So long as they are simply things like java applications that don't modify the systems (aka can be installed by a non privileged user in that users home directory tree) this shouldn't matter to the system overall. Its why ISP that supply shared systems can operate. But once you start fiddling with the core systems and not performing integrity check you run into the RPM equivalent of DLL-Hell. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-01 23:59, Xen wrote:
I just want to say that.
Thanks :-) ...
I will say again that the update process in Kubuntu is easier and faster, both from the command line perspective (apt) and the GUI perspective (KDE). The GUI updates installer is not very streamlined here.
You mean apper? Did you try YaST? That's the real openSUSE updater, the flagship.
and dpkg. Even the name "zypper" is not really pleasant. Even zipper would work out better for me, and still. "Zip" is obviously a bit difficult, but maybe I can alias it ;-).
But "zip" already exists, it is an archiver.
In other words, a sense of peace, Like I said.
Yesterday for the first time I forgot I was using Linux. That is actually quite an accomplishment and a good thing. I had been doing stuff, browsing the web, writing, writing emails, all that stuff, for so long without interruption that I forgot I was actually no longer in Windows (or whatever) and the experience was pain-free to an extent that I did not notice the system anymore.
And it's really good if you don't notice the system because it means the system is getting out of the way and you can actually get some work done.
You are absolutely right! :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXmMnwACgkQja8UbcUWM1yJjAEAnI+d0RgRb6mVIzP7D1Fkhm9Y 03a1gISckIOTadrKkeYA/2kNQlm3/bYBa+P3D9+T1sRTG/ApdQDwKqIDAGGOTuiO =ypUp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-09-02 01:19 (UTC+0200):
On 2015-09-01 23:59 (UTC+0200) Xen wrote:
and dpkg. Even the name "zypper" is not really pleasant. Even zipper would work out better for me, and still. "Zip" is obviously a bit difficult, but maybe I can alias it ;-).
But "zip" already exists, it is an archiver.
Create alias Zip or zyp or zipr or all of the above. :-) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I will say again that the update process in Kubuntu is easier and faster, both from the command line perspective (apt) and the GUI perspective (KDE). The GUI updates installer is not very streamlined here.
You mean apper? Did you try YaST? That's the real openSUSE updater, the flagship.
Yast is very slow to start. I don't have a fast system. I use it for managing repositories. I have used Zypper extensively and almost exclusively. I hadn't seen Apper yet, I think it is very elegant but I would not soon use a graphical tool. It may be a better tool to use for updating though. No, I mean. Zypper seems to always update its (or tries to update its) repositories whenever you start it. Not sure. That makes it slow. Zypper has like 2 important actions (verbs) which are update and install, but they are not really disjunct and they do overlap. Apt has only two important verbs: update and upgrade. Update refreshed the repo/list, upgrade does what zypper update does. And then there is install, so you have three: update, upgrade and install. Those are three totally different things. It works really well. The zypper manual (man page) is more like a compendium, not a quick reference guide. So it is structured like a book; but when I read a man page I look for commands. It is so verbose that you are scanning for pages to find something, and then the actions are all categorized and everything is hard to find. I generally don't read books to find tidbits of what I need to know ;-). It's a bit hard to discover everything. In Debian/Ubuntu the "apt" command does almost everything you need. In Debian 7 they didn't have it, but in Debian 8 it was introduced. It's better than aptitude. apt list -> zypper package apt list "mysql*" -> zypper search "mysql" apt search "mysql" -> finds much more than just package names. Now I am currently comparing a slow 4 year old laptop with an 1.8" 5400 drive with a VPS running on 1 core with an SSD, but on my own system, from experience, all apt operations run about two times as fast as all zypper operations. Maybe zypper can do much more, but it is much harder to use. zypper wp --> apt-file search Apparently wp does not work very well, for example I cannot use it to find header files on my system or where they are coming from. zypper wp "inet/in.h" returns nothing. apt-file search "inet/in.h" returns: dietlibc-dev: /usr/include/diet/netinet/in.h frama-c-base: /usr/share/frama-c/libc/netinet/in.h freebsd-glue: /usr/include/freebsd/netinet/in.h libc6-dev: /usr/include/netinet/in.h libklibc-dev: /usr/lib/klibc/include/netinet/in.h musl-dev: /usr/include/x86_64-linux-musl/netinet/in.h postgresql-server-dev-9.4: /usr/include/postgresql/9.4/server/port/win32/netinet/in.h On that system. But glibc-devel clearly has it: $ rpm -ql glibc-devel | grep "in\.h" /usr/include/bits/in.h /usr/include/bits/initspin.h /usr/include/netinet/in.h Well, I don't want to brag too much or complain too much, I must be happy I have a good running system atm ;-).
But "zip" already exists, it is an archiver.
I know. Call it "zap" and make it fast ;D. "ze archive program". "zap" is also a command debian doesn't know (if you type a command it knows about but which is not installed, it will instantly tell you what package it belongs to; rather helpful :)". "cnf" on the other hand takes about 5 seconds here to do the same task. Zap, unfortunately, is already a command in Suse :P. Let's stop talking about Debian though ;-). Maybe it's offensive.
You are absolutely right! :-)
It still feels that way, when kde daemon doesn't crash on startup; taking my wifi with it ;-). (NetworkManager is so bugged that it will stop doing anything without giving any indication of an error). (I mean the KDE applet). A bit of stability is nice for a change, I haven't really had it for a year. Kubuntu is rather a volatile thing. Because it is new, and small, and sets high goals for itself, and doesn't have all the expertise or the number of people in-house that it depends on, and because it doesn't really like Ubuntu, it gives a very unstable environment. It is still not clear if Kubuntu will continue past october. If you are completely and wholly dependent on Ubuntu, but you don't like its master, that is rather a problem. Normally in life.... Stability produces peace. It also produces self-confidence. People who have solid foundations, in life, or in themselves, which is the same thing, are also emotionally unstable. Your emotional stability is a direct result of your life-situation-stability. I meant to say that they are stable. Many people live lives with foundations that are not their own. My only real interest in open source is to form a basis or foundation that is impervious to be disrupted by outside forces. Ownership of code is one thing that is important for that. Linux is not wholly stable; in the sense that hostile takeovers of many kinds happen continuously. I consider systemd to be one of those things or something partly similar to it. The open source model dictates (or at least the licensing culture and everything that derives from it) that those who create a software or solution and manage to push it, automatically get the most votes for that software to be included, because it works by visual results. There is no one who can say "hey, we think this is wrong, let's devise something else" because manpower generally can't be organised like that. So if someone creates something that does the job, no matter how badly and no matter how hard to use, it gets included because perfect design and flawless operation are not really standards that happen to be important or vital to inclusion. Anything that works but is deeply flawed can still be included in any distribution. I don't know if I'm allowed to elaborate here or whether it would be helpful. I don't have much experience participating in open source projects but the experience I do have indicates that the one who can push a solution fastest is the one who gets the votes. Because there is something tangible, visible. Anyone who has a better solution (in mind) but which is not fully formed -- for example because it required the cooperation of said author -- gets ignored. So what happens is: Person A comes with an idea for Project X. Author D, who managed the project, is interested in that kind of feature. Person B, who has written something that might become a real solution, offers his code to the group, and asks whether he should continue developing it. Person A starts discussing the solution of person B but feedback is required of authors D and E. Author D knows the system so well that he is capable of throwing a solution together in no time, that might not live up to the ideals of person A or B, but which he can concoct and throw together almost instantly. Within days, or weeks, he pushes his solution to the group. Meanwhile he, insincerely, tells person B to continue developing HIS solution because 'it might be preferable'. But person B bails because he doesn't see it happening. Person A keeps debating the thing but Author D tries to shut him down. D immediately, or within a very short time, presents his flawed solution for review. Author E chimes in and they start discussing improvements. Many of those improvements are ideas stolen from A and B. But only D really gets credit for it. The solution gets committed to a branch but now all efforts and attention is directed at developing that branch, soon (?) to be included in the main thing. Alternatives have almost completely become unnecessary. I don't know how it goes on from that because I'm in the middle of it :P. You can guess that I am person A here. Why is this problematic? Because actual programming work (visible code) is preferred over ideas (architectural design) and the one who is fastest (thus the one who has designed the least) gets to be included while budding alternaties are discarded. The end result of that is flawed code. When a system favours including flawed code over correct or elegant code, and then merely seeks to iteratively improve on that flawed code (fixing bugs) you get like a runaway of direction. You could call that a form of 'hostile takeover'. Power dynamics in the open source group result in certain code being pushed. People in positions of power achieve success, but at the cost of their own project and at the cost of those who would create something better. They do so in order to retain their power position. It is vital for them to keep being the ones who decide the code and who get credit for it. Basically, I feel the only way to retain control of your code is to not open source it in that way. We see that contributing to an open source project does not help to improve it. Release early and release often favours bad code over good code. I follow the TrueCrypt model myself. I have never ever in my life seen a better software than TrueCrypt. That software, at least for Windows, covers pretty much every eventuality, documents every step of the way, safeguards everything, and leaves absolutely nothing to chance. It is just almost flawless, you could say. Maybe it is. So much dedication has gone into it. And the authors always retained control. While not even closing the source. Anyway. It seems as though OpenSUSE has a high degree of control over its ecosystem. At the very least. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/02/2015 12:20 PM, Xen wrote:
Yast is very slow to start.
GUIs often are, especially when, like this, they have to parse a lot of data before displaying anything. Going strait to the required gui rather than working your way though yast menus helps. RTFM, of course.
I use it for managing repositories.
Why don't you use zypper for managing repositories?
No, I mean. Zypper seems to always update its (or tries to update its) repositories whenever you start it.
Yes.
That makes it slow.
That's the price you pay for preserving integrity. Much of the 'slowness' is network lag.
Those are three totally different things.
It works really well. The zypper manual (man page) is more like a compendium, not a quick reference guide.
Man pages MUST be complete and thorough references. Anything else is deficient.
So it is structured like a book;
No, man pages have always been structured like this. Books are quite different. What you seem to want is a quick reference guide, a cheat sheet. I collect cheat sheets and have them bound into a book :-) I googled for that and LO! on the first two entries at https://www.google.com/search?q=zypper+cheat+sheet&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 I found https://en.opensuse.org/images/1/17/Zypper-cheat-sheet-1.pdf and https://en.opensuse.org/images/3/30/Zypper-cheat-sheet-2.pdf So what's up? I'm tempted to ask why you never tried resorting to google? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-02 19:09, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/02/2015 12:20 PM, Xen wrote:
No, I mean. Zypper seems to always update its (or tries to update its) repositories whenever you start it.
Yes.
Not always. There is an interval after the previous time in which it doesn't.
It works really well. The zypper manual (man page) is more like a compendium, not a quick reference guide.
Man pages MUST be complete and thorough references. Anything else is deficient.
It is up to the developer team to write man pages written as a quick use guide. For example, procmail has one page describing the options, and another page with examples. info pages, on the other hand, can be organized with a table of contents, with descriptive chapters and usage samples. It is up to the writer. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXnU4EACgkQja8UbcUWM1xw0AD/XfoEUGJ/dEv4e6FrjzHREsca LRSkqKq8hg/ddWX6FYQA/RwyiCPsPBjSLPkb9GFkAFz9xJ553zHbgzxZlL6crK9o =ceBs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/02/2015 03:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
info pages, on the other hand, can be organized with a table of contents, with descriptive chapters and usage samples. It is up to the writer.
Documentation writing is generally acknowledged as being the hardest ting a programmer has to do, and many are simply not suited for it. Big name Firms such as IBM and Microsoft have professional writers who grill the programmers, write it up and have the programmers verify its correctness. Sadly many of them don't always "debug" this by having a team of 'joe sixpack" inexperienced users try out the documentation and suggestions. I recall at one small development shop I was vilified for suggesting have a naive user try the examples in the documentation before it was shipped. All the worse, because I'd tried them myself as an experienced user and they didn't work! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-02 22:15, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/02/2015 03:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
info pages, on the other hand, can be organized with a table of contents, with descriptive chapters and usage samples. It is up to the writer.
Documentation writing is generally acknowledged as being the hardest ting a programmer has to do, and many are simply not suited for it.
True.
Big name Firms such as IBM and Microsoft have professional writers who grill the programmers, write it up and have the programmers verify its correctness.
I remember the Borland Pascal and C manuals, organized in several books, and they were excellent. They even taught the language. The SuSE paper books were also excellent. I bought the DVD+CD install boxes, even if I could download them, only for having that book!
Sadly many of them don't always "debug" this by having a team of 'joe sixpack" inexperienced users try out the documentation and suggestions.
I recall at one small development shop I was vilified for suggesting have a naive user try the examples in the documentation before it was shipped. All the worse, because I'd tried them myself as an experienced user and they didn't work!
LOL. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXnW4wACgkQja8UbcUWM1whmwD/WHolWmKPAdl58ptUFThjW1aR Y1rd6obsikSHLo5hR+cA/izZFGb9HGvhKqPiL/fgVgFI4s/s3NNtdIxqb3El8qhP =G9uw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
* Xen
Yast is very slow to start. I don't have a fast system. I use it for managing repositories. I have used Zypper extensively and almost exclusively. I hadn't seen Apper yet, I think it is very elegant but I would not soon use a graphical tool. It may be a better tool to use for updating though. [...] much more of the same
One may find fault anywhere and everywhere and there is a word for that which excapes me atm. Mark it up to oldtimers and/or Dos Equis. The *beauty* of linux is that you are free for the most part to make it "what you want" and forgo all the nitpicking. *You* are free to make it what *you* want. *You* are free to make it what *you* want. ... And everyone has differing needs and desires. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-02 18:20, Xen wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Zypper has like 2 important actions (verbs) which are update and install, but they are not really disjunct and they do overlap. Apt has only two important verbs: update and upgrade. Update refreshed the repo/list, upgrade does what zypper update does. And then there is install, so you have three: update, upgrade and install.
Zypper has "refresh". You can disable automatic refresh of the repositories, and then order zypper to refresh them when you want. There are also update variants: patch, update, dup (distribution upgrade). install is different, it is used to install something that was not installed previously.
It works really well. The zypper manual (man page) is more like a compendium, not a quick reference guide.
There is an openSUSE book. Years ago it was actually a printed book; nowdays it is rather intended for a web browser. Have a look at doc.opensuse.org Man pages needs getting used to, when you come from Windows. I passed that phase, too ;-)
I know. Call it "zap" and make it fast ;D. "ze archive program".
"zap" is also a command debian doesn't know (if you type a command it knows about but which is not installed, it will instantly tell you what package it belongs to; rather helpful :)". "cnf" on the other hand takes about 5 seconds here to do the same task.
Disk lag, I believe. A second time it will be faster. cer@minas-tirith:~> time cnf zap The program 'zap' can be found in following packages: * dvb [ path: /usr/bin/zap, repository: zypp (openSUSE-13.1-1.10) ] * dvb [ path: /usr/bin/zap, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ] Try installing with: sudo zypper install dvb real 0m5.971s <============ user 0m1.173s sys 0m0.128s cer@minas-tirith:~> time cnf zap The program 'zap' can be found in following packages: * dvb [ path: /usr/bin/zap, repository: zypp (openSUSE-13.1-1.10) ] * dvb [ path: /usr/bin/zap, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ] Try installing with: sudo zypper install dvb real 0m1.219s <============ user 0m1.143s sys 0m0.072s cer@minas-tirith:~> - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXnVhYACgkQja8UbcUWM1w7SgD9FlV7UDvyGGstHxMIPJhVSYXL JKKb6JrRip/8aHxqsL8A/2CTz1vAwuPms8c2PrlvLnZdvDkwo4nNOHIkai8pqwPT =Nc9m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Carlos E. R.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-09-02 18:20, Xen wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Zypper has like 2 important actions (verbs) which are update and install, but they are not really disjunct and they do overlap. Apt has only two important verbs: update and upgrade. Update refreshed the repo/list, upgrade does what zypper update does. And then there is install, so you have three: update, upgrade and install.
Zypper has "refresh". You can disable automatic refresh of the repositories, and then order zypper to refresh them when you want.
There are also update variants: patch, update, dup (distribution upgrade).
install is different, it is used to install something that was not installed previously.
It works really well. The zypper manual (man page) is more like a compendium, not a quick reference guide.
There is an openSUSE book. Years ago it was actually a printed book; nowdays it is rather intended for a web browser.
Have a look at doc.opensuse.org
Carlos, you need to update that bookmark: http://activedoc.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-02 22:14, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
Have a look at doc.opensuse.org
Carlos, you need to update that bookmark:
Actually, I used "doc" intentionally. It is ingrained in my neurones. :-P - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXnW9oACgkQja8UbcUWM1xj6AD+O7va/RVY+G/jAw/P+AD+DpS4 eMf5P2HFXzwojnJrV8EA+wY0xs1DaYEPw5P8pKonKxqGb1jA+qahHp/jr64SCVtV =G7// -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-09-02 22:03 (UTC+0200):
Xen wrote: ...
Zypper has like 2 important actions (verbs) which are update and install, but they are not really disjunct and they do overlap. Apt has only two important verbs: update and upgrade. Update refreshed the repo/list, upgrade does what zypper update does. And then there is install, so you have three: update, upgrade and install.
Zypper has "refresh". You can disable automatic refresh of the repositories, and then order zypper to refresh them when you want.
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to mention this. Note that disabling is on a repo by repo basis, ultimately one optional line in each individual .repo file in /etc/zypp/repos.d/, which can be done with a text editor instead of zypper repo commands or yast. Enabling a repo can be as simple as copying a file from a repository to disk, or using another as a template for creating a similar one, or tacking on or removing a suffix from a .repo file. And, to upgrade to a newer release, sed can be run through the directory, followed by zypper ref, then zypper dup. I find zypper a masterful creation compared to apt, yum, dnf, et al. ...
install is different, it is used to install something that was not installed previously.
Again, zypper install is smarter than other package managers, updating/upgrading an already installed package if a newer is available, refreshing or not according to the individual repo's configurations, asking to proceed to update instead of announcing and exiting. I never did figure out debian pinning or RedHat/Fedora's confusing plugin equivalent. Zypper locking (aka yast tabooing) OTOH is straight forward. The biggest thing I don't like about zypper is that on 64 bit installations its search returns 32 bit packages, but a one line script 'zypper --no-refresh se -s $* | egrep 'x86|noarch' | egrep -v 'srcp|openSUSE-20' | sort' here is a good enough workaround for most of what I want from it. http://features.opensuse.org/316759 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/02/2015 12:59 AM, Xen wrote:
I find I am most disgruntled with openSUSE about the greenish 'scales'
................ - for me , the default wallpaper for openSUSE13.1_default was most beautiful : green gecko on scrolled fern-leaf , which i have saved in : Konsole output /usr/share/wallpapers/xfce/Wallpaper_openSUSE13.1_default.jpg .......... give me a shout if you wish me send it to you ......... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 01/09/15 23:59, Xen wrote:
I think the "KDE DESKTOP" banner in the KDE menu is not very useful (at the top, in small).
You don't say which version of openSUSE and KDE you're using. Sounds like either you're not using the default KDE or you're on Plasma 5, because normally that KDE DESKTOP is replaced by openSUSE's custom branding. Could also be that you're using the upstream KDE packages instead of the openSUSE branding, but in that case you'd have had to have effected the change deliberately.
Screen locking in Kubuntu has never been odd, I must say. In here, it's weird. The options don't match or don't work.
Need more info. The fonts in KDE are also too small for someone coming from a Windows system. It is hard to see, after a while
you don't notice any more but that doesn't mean the effect is gone. It is bad. I'm not so effected by it now because I'm running a Konsole full screen with large font. But most of the fonts are too small, everywhere, by default. There are a few other small gripes I have with KDE atm but I won't mention them here.
I've found the default KDE font sizes in openSUSE versions going back several years to be too small. First thing I do is install the msttfonts package, not because I love Microsoft but because it brings in standard fonts that the rest of the world uses, alleviating minor glitches and formatting issues in received office documents and the like. I then increase the font sizes universally by 1 or 2pts on each category, and set the base font to Arial. I find with all those settings, things somehow resemble more the openSUSE versions I used in the old days.
One really bad thing about KDE I want to mention. The language/keyboard selector in the system tray. You cannot change its colour, that is one bad thing. It conflicts or clashes with the theme I have and I don't see why it should not just be the same colour as the other icons. But more importantly perhaps. In a Dutch region at least in the Netherlands there are two keyboards you use: US and US International. But you cannot choose the language, in other words you cannot customize the name of the keyboard setting. So one is called "US" and the other is called "US" with a subscript of "2". That is almost impossible to see. Then, the key-combination for changing the language/keyboard is win-space, but that is a really hard combination to use/reach. Maybe after a while you get used to it. But in Windows it is left-alt + left-shift. The problem is that you cannot choose this combination in KDE. The software doesn't allow it. So this part of the experience is really bad. I am happy that the keyboard chosen is by default system-wide instead of per-application like in Windows. That is really bad in Windows, it is annoying or difficult in any case to remember which one you've chosen. But not being able to change it easily and not being able to see which one you have easily does not make it better.
Again sounds like you're on Plasma 5 here. Because in KDE 4 these things are all configurable. In fact I think most are in Plasma 5 too but I haven't explored it enough to know yet, and besides I'm running the Kubuntu 15.10 version of that in a VM. In KDE 4, right-clicking on the keyboard layout selector in the system tray, then clicking Configure... brings up a dialog. Under the Configure Layouts section in the middle, you can double-click the Label and edit the characters. So you could simply to US2, or merely 'U2' :) ( Oh my God that's just brought back a fragment of a dream I had the night before last, in which I wrote to Bono. I f***ing hate U2, why on Earth would I dream of that? ) In that same dialog, you can set 'Show flag' insted of Show Label, if you don't like the label colour. But that's another odd thing. The mis-matching colour is something that was present in old versions openSUSE, certainly not in any of the current versions if you use the default openSUSE KDE themeing. So it's probably because of your theme that it does that. As for the key combination, I just tried. Under 'Shortcuts for Switching Layout', next to Main Shortcuts it was set to None, so I clicked on the None button and from the list I saw Alt+Shift was available. I selected it, OK'd the dialog and it worked straight away. So it seems you have installed some program or changed the shortcuts configuration such that that combination is blocked by something else. In any case, in that dialog you can set up to three different combinations. I use Ctrl+Alt+K, the third default. gumb -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
I will say again that the update process in Kubuntu is easier and faster, both from the command line perspective (apt) and the GUI perspective (KDE). The GUI updates installer is not very streamlined here. I see it is working now, it often seems to fail, I just thought it was not doing anything. I find that, if I may say such a thing here, the command line tools have better interfaces/options. I am getting used to rpm and zypper but it seems archaic and more difficult to use than apt and dpkg. Even the name "zypper" is not really pleasant.
I find that strange, but "de gustibus .." and all that. The problem with command names is that "all the good ones are taken", and that was so a long time ago. I recall that discussion on USENET before we had the commercially available Internet. So we deal with speeeeeling variants and "Foreign words" and names that have nothing to do with the function. If nomenclature is a reason for using or not using an application or system, then I pity you. Reality is nomenclature is an arena now for law suites. Eecall the Apple/CISCO issue of the name 'iPhone'? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2015-09-02 at 09:17 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
I will say again that the update process in Kubuntu is easier and faster,
How is it easier and faster than "zypper up". It is one command. This reminds me of the old package manager wars; when, honestly, almost all package managers work pretty much the same way with different dressing. Don't missing dressing for fundamentals.
I am getting used to rpm and zypper but it seems archaic and more difficult to use than apt and dpkg. Even the name "zypper" is not really pleasant.
I don't understand. They are almost 99.44% identical to using either of those tools. One could almost write a search-n-replace command translator.
The problem with command names is that "all the good ones are taken", and that was so a long time ago. I recall that discussion on USENET before we had the commercially available Internet. So we deal with speeeeeling variants and "Foreign words" and names that have nothing to do with the function.
What does "apt" have to do with its function? If I heard the term "apt" I would think "appropriate", which doesn't help. Commands are just strings of characters.
If nomenclature is a reason for using or not using an application or system, then I pity you.
+1 -- Adam Tauno Williams mailto:awilliam@whitemice.org GPG D95ED383 Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Wed, 2015-09-02 at 09:17 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
I will say again that the update process in Kubuntu is easier and faster,
How is it easier and faster than "zypper up". It is one command. This reminds me of the old package manager wars; when, honestly, almost all package managers work pretty much the same way with different dressing. Don't missing dressing for fundamentals.
I talked about fundamentals in the other mail. It is hard to compare GUIs without going into details. Apt has three operations that are completely disjunct: update, upgrade and install. And dist-upgrade, which does something else entirely. They also run blazing fast because "install" won't run "update" it will assume you have already done that. As it stands the initialisation of zypper takes a long time. Same of Yast I guess. I find myself constantly waiting. What I haven't seen in Apt is the ability to easily make choices based on repos. I can do zypper dist-upgrade --from M17N and it will only do that. I have never encountered anything like that in Apt. I must say I don't like the Apt way of defining sources either. Finding other repos is easier with Yast.
I am getting used to rpm and zypper but it seems archaic and more difficult to use than apt and dpkg. Even the name "zypper" is not really pleasant.
I don't understand. They are almost 99.44% identical to using either of those tools. One could almost write a search-n-replace command translator.
Not really. You can't do (apparently) an "install" without fetching new internet data?. There is no command apparently for fetching the new repo data. Apart from that you're probably right. It just takes me longer to find the right commands. It is less intuitive. It's about the verbs and whether they are intutive. That is not dressing, that is core. Also, if the verbs of any wrapper you would write don't match the verbs of the underlying core, or vice versa, you cannot always perform the same (atomic) actions. That is probably not a big deal, it is just that zypper seems much slower than any apt thing I have ever used. I am astounded by its slowness. Seriously. You talk about getting coffee. But I'd like to get the thing done. Whenever I need to use Zypper, I take care to aggregate multiple packages, whereas with Apt there would not be any pain in executing single package commands. That probably results from its design as well, but I don't know. Heh. Trying to find a certain list of package without using grep. First attempt: zypper list Unknown command 'list' zypper packages "mysql*" Repository 'mysql*' not found by its alias, number, or URI. hmm. Oh. zypper search "mysql" .. required output. I don't think I would ever have a reason to display the full packages list like that, so "zypper packages" is useless without a repo behind it. It's like that blog post on Git: Useless command: git rebase What does it do? destroy history blindfolded Useful command: git rebase -i What does it do? Lets you rewrite the upstream history of a branch, choosing which commits to keep, squash, or ditch. ;-). But more to the point: To reset one file in your working directory to its committed state: git checkout file.txt To reset every file in your working directory to its committed state: git reset --hard Command inconsistencies ;-). ---- The problem with "zypper packages" is that it is not useful for listing (and it is not called "list") even though it says that that is its purpose. And you can't use it to easily filter. packages, pa List all available packages. Okay. So I need to use packages to list packages. Then I go and find the parameters to that. Oops, it can't. There is no filter that that command. So what lists a selection of packages? See, if the verbs were the same, then "zypper packages | grep mysql" would be the same or similar to "zypper packages "mysql*". In Linux we use filters to primary verbs. So to go on with the git example inconsistency: To list all packages: zypper packages To list a selection of packages: zypper search. That makes no sense. Now you have two different verbs for the same action. Further, the packages command is just a special kind of "zypper search -s -t package". It's like, to boot your computer: "boot" To boot your computer into linux "find kernel" Doesn't make sense. Further, "install" is a verb but "packages" is a noun. Actions should always be verbs. "install" designates clearly what it is going to /do/, but "packages" has no such indication whatsoever. a simple "list -r reponame" would do the same and be more understandable. So you see it is not about dressing but about the choice of actions and commands you support. In any case, there is no difference between "how it looks" and "what it does". In natural language more often used words become shorter, there is a reason for that. It is more effective. It is language design.
What does "apt" have to do with its function? If I heard the term "apt" I would think "appropriate", which doesn't help. Commands are just strings of characters.
Archive Package Tool. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/02/2015 01:08 PM, Xen wrote:
So to go on with the git example inconsistency:
To list all packages:
zypper packages
To list a selection of packages:
zypper search.
That makes no sense.
Yes it makes sense. zypper search is analogous to 'find' since its looking with particular constrains zypper packages is analogous to 'ls'. Running them without a third parameter is like giving them a wildcard find . -name '*' and ls -r * -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Xen composed on 2015-09-02 19:08 (UTC+0200): ...
You can't do (apparently) an "install" without fetching new internet data?. There is no command apparently for fetching the new repo data.
For those who don't normally do such things while online, repos can be configured to not auto-refresh when attempting an install or update. For those who like manual fetching of new repo data, zypper has refresh (ref). ...
Trying to find a certain list of package without using grep.
First attempt:
zypper list
Find == Query Any query typically returns some sort of list. Zypper creators apparently preferred left ring finger/left middle finger to left pinkie/right index, se for search instead of qu for query. FWIW, zypper also can facilitate crowded installations, optionally downloading on demand (download->install, download->install, ...) instead of filling up a filesystem with packages before installing any of them, at least potentially producing less fragmentation in such cases. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-02 23:37, Felix Miata wrote:
FWIW, zypper also can facilitate crowded installations, optionally downloading on demand (download->install, download->install, ...) instead of filling up a filesystem with packages before installing any of them, at least potentially producing less fragmentation in such cases.
One idea is that it would be possible to install a package while the next package is being downloaded, saving time. I'm unsure if this was implemented. On the other hand, the process might crash during one of the installations, so it may be safer to download all the packages before starting the installs. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXnhxsACgkQja8UbcUWM1zDlAD+K0pozgEASaNC7kZoq8plrJvG Lb+0MpBaDpqNNyFkxogA/2b0ag5P97lEL9/rHy1DqrDIKKd6S0rS3QRS9EC57Mct =kSle -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2015-09-03 at 01:32 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-09-02 23:37, Felix Miata wrote:
FWIW, zypper also can facilitate crowded installations, optionally downloading on demand (download->install, download->install, ...) instead of filling up a filesystem with packages before installing any of them, at least potentially producing less fragmentation in such cases. One idea is that it would be possible to install a package while the next package is being downloaded, saving time. I'm unsure if this was implemented.
This just seems like unnecessary optimization. How often do people install concurrent packages? Installing a package is a pretty rare event in the use-case of a normal computer.
On the other hand, the process might crash during one of the installations, so it may be safer to download all the packages before starting the installs.
Exactly. If someone is constantly installing packages I just suspect they are doing something wrong; in this case consistently should trump performance. -- Adam Tauno Williams mailto:awilliam@whitemice.org GPG D95ED383 Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-03 03:10, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Thu, 2015-09-03 at 01:32 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
One idea is that it would be possible to install a package while the next package is being downloaded, saving time. I'm unsure if this was implemented.
This just seems like unnecessary optimization. How often do people install concurrent packages? Installing a package is a pretty rare event in the use-case of a normal computer.
Updating is pretty normal (once a week, even daily, is normal), and it is the same operation internally. This optimization saves quite some time with some combinations network speed and cpu speed. For instance, if both take about a minute each (not that rare). For instance, if download speed is slow, it makes sense to use the default of downloading patches instead of the full packages, saving download size, at the cost of increasing install time a lot. The time for each fair sized package update goes up to minutes. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXnqMYACgkQja8UbcUWM1yNbQD+MGmkgsEjfmC++5LwJZuY6bS9 4ntmU8RR9CD7ZD5KCeoA/A3yqG8Ie2f+f79eNDUxILxmlz5zmGavv3dZakmQ1ZoS =zxXn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/02/2015 09:56 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Updating is pretty normal (once a week, even daily, is normal), and it is the same operation internally. This optimization saves quite some time with some combinations network speed and cpu speed. For instance, if both take about a minute each (not that rare).
+1 As it stands, the network is idle while the install is being done. Concurrency has always led to efficiency in situations like this. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-09-03 01:32 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
FWIW, zypper also can facilitate crowded installations, optionally downloading on demand (download->install, download->install, ...) instead of filling up a filesystem with packages before installing any of them, at least potentially producing less fragmentation in such cases.
One idea is that it would be possible to install a package while the next package is being downloaded, saving time. I'm unsure if this was implemented. On the other hand, the process might crash during one of the installations, so it may be safer to download all the packages before starting the installs.
As most of my testing installations are on small / filesystems (4.0G, 4.4G or 4.8G for 32 bit, 4.8G or 5.2G for 64), I've had all my zypp.confs include commit.downloadMode = DownloadAsNeeded since much longer ago than I can remember, I'm sure at least as far back as 11.0 or whenever it was not the default. And, I have a lot of them, likely upwards of 200 accumulated since 10.0 release. Most got and get dup'd from Factory/TW many times per release development cycle. It's been infrequent here to encounter up/dup process interruption, but in that long period, it has happened, typically on account of my cableco going down for maintenance around 02:00 for an extended period every several weeks. I cannot remember zypper ever being unable to recover from interruption. As a small precaution, I do not normally do a 100% up or dup. Instead, I use a script to install zypper, libzypp, rpm and their deps first, and only afterward use up or dup to almost finish, with a lock to prevent new kernel installation and bootloader update until after everything else is updated. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 02, Xen wrote:
Not really. You can't do (apparently) an "install" without fetching new internet data?. There is no command apparently for fetching the new repo
'zypper ref' to download the meta data 'zypper --no-refresh <cmd>' to work with the metadata. If thats what you actually mean. Looks like --no-refresh can not be set globally other than /etc/zypp/zypp.conf:repo.refresh.delay=huge_val. Olaf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
I find that strange, but "de gustibus .." and all that.
The problem with command names is that "all the good ones are taken", and that was so a long time ago. I recall that discussion on USENET before we had the commercially available Internet.
So people should create customized systems more :). Or at least forms of systems that are to their liking according to what likeminded people do. If every package or program ever written has a right to a namespace, that's pretty unworkable I'd say? ???.
If nomenclature is a reason for using or not using an application or system, then I pity you.
It is not a reason, it is congruence factor. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/02/2015 12:25 PM, Xen wrote:
So people should create customized systems more :). Or at least forms of systems that are to their liking according to what likeminded people do. If every package or program ever written has a right to a namespace, that's pretty unworkable I'd say? ???.
The reality is that in the Linux world people do. Not only does the Build System let us do that, but that ability is what got us Android and a million other embedded systems. People doing that customization is why we have the bash Shell rather than the old Bourne shell, the version of Vi we have as VIM and a lot more. The old Roman poet Horace had the line If a better system is thine, impart it freely; if not, make use of mine. That is what has driven Linux. People coming up with better - for them and others - and making it available. Why use Bill Joy's original "vi" when VIM is available? Why use the original Bourne shell when BASH is available? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Xen
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
I find that strange, but "de gustibus .." and all that.
The problem with command names is that "all the good ones are taken", and that was so a long time ago. I recall that discussion on USENET before we had the commercially available Internet.
So people should create customized systems more :). Or at least forms of systems that are to their liking according to what likeminded people do. If every package or program ever written has a right to a namespace, that's pretty unworkable I'd say? ???.
Diverging from your point, but there are thousands of unique openSUSE "spins". https://susestudio.com/browse Here's one that apparently gives a "Windows 9" like experience, but it is definately openSUSE: https://susestudio.com/a/zNQZfQ/microsoft-windows-9-bubble (I have never tried it and can't speak to it's quality.) To be honest, I'm not sure how to best use that resource as a consumer. Greg -- Greg Freemyer www.IntelligentAvatar.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-02 22:26, Greg Freemyer wrote:
Here's one that apparently gives a "Windows 9" like experience, but it is definately openSUSE:
I wasn't aware of W9? I thought they went from 8 to 10 directly. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXnXCEACgkQja8UbcUWM1yNcAD+P4Kt6xEPGgdoTUHFFRMytX1i GoGwtMvzkL8DORRy4MoA/1FIMJH5EJHOvFo76bQveNIRU4zVqjoLv3yEjgjqKHZs =2d6C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Carlos E. R.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-09-02 22:26, Greg Freemyer wrote:
Here's one that apparently gives a "Windows 9" like experience, but it is definately openSUSE:
I wasn't aware of W9? I thought they went from 8 to 10 directly.
Microsoft did, but not the creator of the openSUSE spin. I guess he is saying it's a perfect emulation of a non-existent version of windows! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-09-02 23:59, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 4:29 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
I wasn't aware of W9? I thought they went from 8 to 10 directly.
Microsoft did, but not the creator of the openSUSE spin.
I guess he is saying it's a perfect emulation of a non-existent version of windows!
Ah! Ok :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXnd2MACgkQja8UbcUWM1weZAD/eHhgujuGp53kTDfTk0AFBeSL m2K+yME6NsEkIDFWjU0A/0wmdbPe6DFWdhQDE3M4CMzFEiNQFiBZwCUEamkblK38 =u9uT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
the command line tools have better interfaces/options.
I'd phrase that as "command line tools are more to the point". I can do zypper up and go have a coffee. GUIs need constant massaging. This is a good illustratyion of that point. https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/156t9a/fighter_jock_and_the_cargo_pi... And yes, I can turn of two of my (four) CPUs :-) -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
I find I am most disgruntled with openSUSE about the greenish 'scales' background that is pervasive everywhere.
Well cry me a Mississippi. Fixed that long ago. its there in the wiki .. somewhere ... so far back in my memory I've forgotten. Go google. And oh yes I've changed the default 'wallpaper' on my phone as well. YMMV. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
The fonts in KDE are also too small for someone coming from a Windows system.
So many of your complaints could be rectified if you made use of systemsettings Under "Application Appearance", for example, you can set the various parts of the GUI to different fonts and sizes. Then there is "Font Management" which allows you to import specific font files. Personally I've found it easier to make use of zypper to import different system fonts. A little searching, perhaps using https://software.opensuse.org/search will lead to possibilities in a variety of repositories. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
The fonts in KDE are also too small for someone coming from a Windows system.
So many of your complaints could be rectified if you made use of
systemsettings
It is hard work. Of course I have gone about changing fonts. But that was before I accidentally lost my /home. Now I have to redo it, and I haven't gotten to it yet. Also, I was using Evolution and couldn't change most of it, even with gnome-tweak-tool, but that is another story. I'm currently putting efforts in getting an incremental backup scheme going that is up to my needs. It needs a lot of research, even script writing. Everything is hard work. I'm at this day and night. It would be nice if some things were good defaults from the start. It's not to say that I don't mind doing it, I mean the script writing mostly. But every bad design choice another person makes that gets included in some distro and that is the only really accessible alternative for a regular linux user, means I have to design around the flaws which is more work for me. Linux is hard work. Yeah, I guess I'm this really poor person ;-). Poor me. But seriously. The same applies to Windows although it is harder to change for me. Windows design choices used to be quite okay from the graphical user interface perspective. Starting around Vista/7 they started going down the drain. Now I am spending time and effort trying to get that right again. That program/company is costing ME time and money because they are the only offering. I can seek alternatives, but that is also hard work. I have invested at least 30-40 hours already into this Suse. I need a time to break and get even as well now and then ;-). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/02/2015 12:17 PM, Xen wrote:
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Anton Aylward wrote:
On 09/01/2015 05:59 PM, Xen wrote:
The fonts in KDE are also too small for someone coming from a Windows system.
So many of your complaints could be rectified if you made use of
systemsettings
It is hard work.
Yea right. So is install Linux in the first place.
Of course I have gone about changing fonts. But that was before I accidentally lost my /home.
That sounds very careless of you. Wait, don't tell me, you didn't have a backup? unlike some of us who have backups of /home going back years and years and years, never mind of various configuration files in /etc ....
I'm currently putting efforts in getting an incremental backup scheme going that is up to my needs.
Oh good.
It needs a lot of research, even script writing.
What? You think this has never been done before? So many packages to do that! The hard work is already done; all you need to do if fill in the config file to point as to the where and when.
Everything is hard work.
You're making it so.
It would be nice if some things were good defaults from the start.
The thing about Linux is that you have choice. If you want a system where you have things already decided for you, already configured, go with Windows or OSX.
But every bad design choice another person makes ....
They may be bad for you but they were good for someone else. That's what's wrong with terms like "Best Practices", a phrase that was invented by one of the Big Accounting Firms. There are 'good for you" practices, and 'good for me" practices, and sometimes there's an overlap. But don't bank on it. And what might be good (enough) for my home system might be alarmingly deficient for my at-work system.
for me. Linux is hard work.
Because you're making it hard work.
Yeah, I guess I'm this really poor person ;-). Poor me.
-- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Xen
But that was before I accidentally lost my /home.
It's not in the repo's, but I like using SpiderOak for offsite incremental backups. I think the first 5GB is free. I pay for the 100GB version. https://spideroak.com/ They don't have an openSUSE rpm, but the Fedora one works with no issues. Just download it and install it. https://spideroak.com/opendownload Then use the gui to add your home directory (etc.) to the backup list. Greg -- Greg Freemyer www.IntelligentAvatar.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/01/2015 11:59 PM, Xen wrote:
I find I am most disgruntled with openSUSE about the greenish 'scales' background that is pervasive everywhere. It is used as the background of the initrd boot thing. It is used as the background of the login screen. It is used as the background of the screensaver. It is used as the background of the desktop. And only the desktop is easy to change, to get rid of.
I have always dreamed about changing the whole OS "theme" by installing a package... zypper in Amiga-theme Does this exist ? Dsant, from France -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2015-09-02 at 17:14 +0200, Dsant wrote:
On 09/01/2015 11:59 PM, Xen wrote:
I find I am most disgruntled with openSUSE about the greenish 'scales' background that is pervasive everywhere. It is used as the background of the initrd boot thing. It is used as the background of the login screen. It is used as the background of the screensaver. It is used as the background of the desktop. And only the desktop is easy to change, to get rid of. I have always dreamed about changing the whole OS "theme" by installing a package... zypper in Amiga-theme Does this exist ?
I doubt it; how would a package change already set user preferences? Many of the visual settings are per-user. You could just write a script which runs at login and loads a bunch of gsettings from a file. -- Adam Tauno Williams mailto:awilliam@whitemice.org GPG D95ED383 Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2 Sep 2015, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
On Wed, 2015-09-02 at 17:14 +0200, Dsant wrote:
I have always dreamed about changing the whole OS "theme" by installing a package... zypper in Amiga-theme Does this exist ?
I doubt it; how would a package change already set user preferences? Many of the visual settings are per-user. You could just write a script which runs at login and loads a bunch of gsettings from a file.
It would indeed be really handy if all of the separate theming categories could be integrated. Many authors publish themes and then publish the background separately, mention this, and mention that, because they cannot offer a complete package. To answer your question: if the system can load system wide settings (for theming) it can also save system wide settings for theming. You'd just save your theme profile/package in a file and then load the other person's. Nothing lost. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 09/02/2015 11:14 AM, Dsant wrote:
I have always dreamed about changing the whole OS "theme" by installing a package... zypper in Amiga-theme Does this exist ?
Dsant, from France
Almost. Sort of. There is http://kde-look.org/ But not as a single package. I set up my grub2, login and KDE background all to match once. It was rather more as a "can it be done" thing when I had some time to spare. But remember, Firefox and Thunderbirds are Gnome-ic, not Kde-ic. I'm not sure how to classify LibreOffice. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Anton Aylward -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Dsant -
ellanios82 -
Felix Miata -
Greg Freemyer -
gumb -
Olaf Hering -
Patrick Shanahan -
Xen