On Tuesday 16 Nov 2004 14:05, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 13:27, peter Nikolic wrote:

...

Hark at er ..get you .

Am I supposed to understand something? Duh!

-- A Linux Only area Happy bug hunting M$ clan, The time is here to FORGET that M$ Corp ever existed the world does not NEED M$ Corp the world has NO USE for M$ Corp it is time to END M$ Corp , Play time is over folks time for action approaches at an alarming pace the death knell for M$ Copr has been sounded . Termination time is around the corner ..

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 15:35, Alex Daniloff wrote:

This is a typical commercial pitch I would expect from MS or other corporate drones. A bunch of meaningless buzz words used out of content. Are you a sales person by the chance? What kind of crap you're talking about? Why do I and our other engineers need 5 years maintenance? What is a maintenance? Blow dust from our boxes?

Security updates. Emergency bug fixes. Have you heard the phrase "end of life" before?

Why do we need all these certifications if we know what we're doing?

If you have to ask that, you don't

What is "enterprise-class hardware" you're talking about. We're designing circuits which used anywhere - from your cell phone to jet fighters. You can make any hardware to be an enterprise-class. What is "mission critical"? A nuclear plant or a ballistic missile?

A system your business relies on for its existence

Why reinstall every two years instead of simply upgrading systems to the next version? What kind of bull shit is this?

You don't know a great deal about maintaining reliable systems, do you

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 16:50, Brad Bourn wrote:

Why the flames?

How bout provide some sound logic for him to work with?

Or is it easier to come across like you actually know what your talking about if you make fun or someone and discredit them......

Yeah, you're right, I have no idea what I'm talking about. But I'm not the one who talked about being on drugs. I did comment on (a few of) the specifics, and if he had sent a decent mail I might have commented a bit more thoroughly But basically, if you don't know why it's a good thing to have certifications (commercial warranties, most support desks won't even look at your problem if you're not on a certified system), or why it's a good thing not to upgrade every six months instead of having a long life system, then the answer required will be much longer than can be provided on a simple mailing list.

[OT] I apologize to others, and feel this worth mentioning. I have been on this list and others for several months. Your right, I used a little taste of their own medicine for effect. I personally prefer top posts. With full quotes on the bottom for reference. To each their own (flame on if you feel the need....) I would have assumed that Anders works at or closely with SuSE from the Signature. I would also assume that he has more knowledge then me on these matters based on the parts he did explain in brief. I have moved away from SysAdmin (although I still have those responsibilities) and into development. I have been M$ free for many years now (thank god!). The point of my mail (and I think Anders got it based on his well put reply) was that it doesn't do the industry, the list, or anything else any good to make assumptions about and flame people for their style or level of familiarity / skills / Experience. I didn't think I needed to explain this and wasn't going to because Anders reply was well put. I was satisfied. However, your response is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I recently read an article in one of my linux mags that talked about the difficulty for the laymen to get involved in the open-source movement. The main problem or deterrent that was referred to was the prevailing attitude of those that are in the know. When you as a question and get told to RTFM. When you get on a mailing list and ask some questions only to get flamed. One of the skills I have been working on is how to turn someones energy to flame me into energy to give me the answer I'm looking for. I don't think it should be that way. Anders had an excellent point in his response, "if he had sent a decent mail I might have commented a bit more thoroughly". I tell that to newbies all the time. Because of my respect for the folks at SuSE and the many thousands of people that have helped me over the years, I was struck by his response to that post and said so. He had a great reply to mine, and it was over. from the "note:  no need to reply as I will not see it here or on my server." this guy put at the bottom of his post, I assume also that he has blacklisted me from his system.... Can't we all just get along? If a person is truly good enough at what they do, they should easily be able to get other to follow their reasoning without brute force, flame prodding. I wish I could find the article I'm talking about, well worth the read. I think our cleaning lady threw it out when she cleaned the bathroom this weekend.... B-) On Tuesday 16 November 2004 09:15 am, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Brad Bourn [11-16-04 11:01]:

...

Why the flames?

How bout provide some sound logic for him to work with?

Or is it easier to come across like you actually know what your talking about if you make fun or someone and discredit them......

You would probably (I may be mistaken here) benefit by sitting on the sidelines for a month or two and observe the goings-on in this forum.

You have entered with an abrasive attitude, you top post and full quote and have no knowledge of the abilities of the individual you have attacked and, apparently, the qualities required for an 'enterprise' system.

note: no need to reply as I will not see it here or on my server. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

Without spending a whole lot more time on this, this is the article I was reffering to. http://www.sdmagazine.com/documents/s=9411/sdm0411b/sdm0411b.html?temp=mBMlD... other comments mixed in below..... On Tuesday 16 November 2004 11:33 am, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Brad,

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 09:30, Brad Bourn wrote:

...

...

I recently read an article in one of my linux mags that talked about the difficulty for the laymen to get involved in the open-source movement.

Why would non-professionals whose only interest in computers is to accomplish some kind of work or play care about getting involved in a "movement." If anything, that's going to deter them.

It's not that "the movement" (ignoring the unpleasant biological function connotation) need not happen, but that it is only for the self-selected "movementarians" (with a nod to "The Simpsons") to participate in it. Dedicating ones self to a movement cannot be made a requirement for people whose only interests are the ends they want or need to accomplish.

Because people hear about the wonderfull alternative to M$ that is Linux. It is the expecting people to become part of it to the extent that the ones in "the know" are, that is the fuel to flame the ones that just want answers to get their work done. That's my point. Do we agree on this?

...

The main problem or deterrent that was referred to was the prevailing attitude of those that are in the know.

The real problem is that there is any degree of beholdenness to any particular cognoscenti at all. That's as much true for Linux and other free or open-source software as it is for proprietary and closed-source (MS or Apple, e.g.).

Apple has done more than anyone by freeing the users of its hardware and software from the need to appeal to experts. The success of their approach is illustrated in large part by the premium they've historically been able to charge for their systems.

And it's not cheap (in effort, which is usually something that costs money) to produce such easy-to-use software. Usability testing is something of an art and cannot be done haphazardly, incidentally or entirely after the fact. It must be integrated into the process of software design and development.

This fact may in itself be the greatest Achilles heel of the open source phenomenon. A small group of skilled and devoted software architects and programmers (and in many cases a single individual) can produce a lot of highly functional software, but highly usable software is a much more interdisciplinary practice and few good programmers do good interaction design.

agreed. So, the way I see it, the people that aren't the developers, are a valueable resource to aid in taking the highly functional and adding the polish needed to make it highly usable, and as a valuable resource, they shouldn't be turned away, discouraged, or flamed.

...

When you ask a question and get told to RTFM. When you get on a mailing list and ask some questions only to get flamed.

This really just means you're asking the wrong person or asking in the wrong way. People here are all essentially volunteers. They are not being paid to help people along, and they quite reasonably expect the supplicants (heh, heh) to have done their part. Due diligence is to read available documentation and other Web resource before turning their problem over to a group of self-selected, unpaid individuals whose motives generally should not be impugned and who owe nothing other than basic etiquette to the seeker of help.

Agreed. I like to tell newbies that geeks love to have the answers, they don't necessarily like to explain them. So, don't ask vague questions that give the impression you aren't willing to do any work and just want the answer, like, "how do I make my mouse work". Instead, give it your best shot, and if you get stumped, ask a specific question and they'll fall all over themselves trying to give you the answer like, "I plugged my mouse into my printer port and I still can't get it to work, what did I do wrong" On the other hand, as a developer, if one of my clients wanted to know how to do something specific with my software, I would tell them what they wanted to know instead of telling them to read the manual. I find that allot of people (at least business people that don't want to know the geeky stuff) weigh this into their choice of software. If vender A just tells them what to do step by step so they can see the process all the way through, and Vender B tells them to read the manual (that they have to understand it, not just know how to use it), they will go with Vendor A.

...

One of the skills I have been working on is how to turn someones energy to flame me into energy to give me the answer I'm looking for. I don't think it should be that way.

It would be nice to be able to expect that users ask their questions intelligently, but as we can readily see here and on almost any comparable forum, many people have trouble pushing the correct buttons on their mailer. Questions that are unanswerable due to their vagueness or lack of background details are commonplace--almost the norm. How much of that kind of nonsense should we accept with complete graciousness? A little negative feedback is sometimes called for, I'd say.

I agree mostly. This was certainly the case with Anders response. I personally try to respond to those types of questions on this list with answer instead of questions. e.g. Q: How do I change the resolution of my console? A: If you mean the resolution of the framebuffer device that is used to diplay the console, you set that with the vga= boot parameter of the kernel. With Grub it is in the /boot/grub/menu.1st file instead of What do you mean? Can you be more specific? If they knew enough to be able to ask the question right, they probably would be asking the question. By giving an answer that might help, at least your providing more information to aid in their understanding so they have a chance to see what clarifications need to be made.

...

...

Can't we all just get along?

Stranger things have happened.

...

If a person is truly good enough at what they do, they should easily be able to get other to follow their reasoning without brute force, flame prodding.

I don't agree. I'm very good at software design, but that doesn't mean I'm good explaining the more elementary aspects of software. They've been pushed down so far in my way of thinking, that I find it hard sometimes to explain them to lay people (I practice on my parents, who are now in their 70s). Just as with my previous point about interaction design and usability testing, education and clear writing is its own discipline, and experts in a given profession are often not the best people for educating novices in their own field.

Well, your right. I guess this is more of a standard I hold myself to. I'd like to be able to do both.

...

I wish I could find the article I'm talking about, well worth the read. I think our cleaning lady threw it out when she cleaned the bathroom this weekend....

Perhaps if you did your own dirty work...

hehehe, I doubt my company would like me cleaning the bathrooms instead of developing software, and she might get pissed if I put her out of work. B-)

Very well put! We agree. B-) On Tuesday 16 November 2004 04:08 pm, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Brad,

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 14:06, Brad Bourn wrote:

...

...

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 11:33 am, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Brad,

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 09:30, Brad Bourn wrote:

...

...

I recently read an article in one of my linux mags that talked about the difficulty for the laymen to get involved in the open-source movement.

Why would non-professionals whose only interest in computers is to accomplish some kind of work or play care about getting involved in a "movement." If anything, that's going to deter them.

It's not that "the movement" (ignoring the unpleasant biological function connotation) need not happen, but that it is only for the self-selected "movementarians" (with a nod to "The Simpsons") to participate in it. Dedicating ones self to a movement cannot be made a requirement for people whose only interests are the ends they want or need to accomplish.

Because people hear about the wonderfull alternative to M$ that is Linux. It is the expecting people to become part of it to the extent that the ones in "the know" are, that is the fuel to flame the ones that just want answers to get their work done. That's my point. Do we agree on this?

Umm... I'm not sure--I'm having trouble decoding this paragraph.

If you're saying that because we (some amorphous, undefined we, in which I'll include myself) advocate and promote Linux and other open-source software, then we should likewise commit to bringing people along and helping them realize the virtues and advantages of that software and that we most certainly should not, in effect, punish these newcomers for taking our advice, then yes, I agree.

...

...

...

...

I wish I could find the article I'm talking about, well worth the read. I think our cleaning lady threw it out when she cleaned the bathroom this weekend....

Perhaps if you did your own dirty work...

hehehe, I doubt my company would like me cleaning the bathrooms instead of developing software, and she might get pissed if I put her out of work.

Ahh. I see--the office restroom.

...

B-)

Randall Schulz

On 11/17/04 12:10 PM, "Richard Fieldsend" wrote:

However, if I'm trying to persaude others to follow me down the Linux route, one of the problems I have is that often newbies are put off by the attitude of more experienced users. I'm a tech support person, and I learned a long time ago that you need to frame questions in a particular way to ensure that you get a reasonable response. However, I'm sure not everyone has that same knowledge. Those who don't shouldn't be flamed for asking a question out of turn (even if the answer is RTFM). If we make Open Source a scary place to be then people are going to stay with their buggy, dreadful XP stuff cos at least its got cuddly icons and a cuddly paperclip!

As still a very newbie, still trying to set up simple things on our Linux box(s) the more knowledgeable people have to also understand we may not know how to ask the correct thing, or what it is called in the way of terms or words... Some examples- In the printing field, we work with some standards known as PMS. To us it stands for Pantone Matching System... To others... Sometimes the apple osx server list is a hard place to ask questions... The standard answer is RTFM all too often. Many times that is true, but there are 15, not counting the ones for the hardware. http://www.apple.com/server/documentation/ Other times the answer is "what, is google down today". I can tell you it does get old at times... Very good software, but if you don't know what to look for, you will never find it. That is with anything. -- Thanks, George "The only secure Microsoft software is what's still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..." (Forno)

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 14:19:56 -0500 george wrote:

As still a very newbie, still trying to set up simple things on our Linux box(s) the more knowledgeable people have to also understand we may not know how to ask the correct thing, or what it is called in the way of terms or words...

Some examples- In the printing field, we work with some standards known as PMS. To us it stands for Pantone Matching System... To others...

Sometimes the apple osx server list is a hard place to ask questions... The standard answer is RTFM all too often. Many times that is true, but there are 15, not counting the ones for the hardware. http://www.apple.com/server/documentation/ Other times the answer is "what, is google down today". I can tell you it does get old at times...

Very good software, but if you don't know what to look for, you will never find it. That is with anything.

George, When I started with Linux I found it very hard, as most of command line configuration was difficult, let alone X. I confess -with a little shame I admit- that for months I kept M$ on my computer because I couldn't get my printer config files set up. But I always had a lot of support fron the list. I also had a few flames. The flames were because I hadn't done all I could with my limited knowledge, before I asked for help. I found this to be true for others as well. If you want freedom, the right to make choices, the right to learn, the right to be responsible for yourself, then that's great! You will get support. You won't if you want all the benefit without the effort. So you will also find most of us willing to help if you are trying hard to find the answers for yourself but have not succeeded, have a positive attitude to learning so you need less support but can begin to help others, and, last but not least, follow the list so you don't ask (again, and again) the questions that have been thrashed out at length on the list. Oh, and by the way, the archives are a good place to start to find information. Thank you for your post- you make some good points (I'd almost forgotten Pantone....) Terence

On Wednesday 17 November 2004 05:10 pm, Sid Boyce wrote:

I don't think we have to change one thing, we are doing just fine the way things are. Regards

I think you're right.... but it would be great if someone would come up with a short document (so it can be sent by email) that would describe the best way for a newbie to ask a question. Maybe that's all that's lacking. I know I get pretty pee'd when someone asks an out-of-the-blue question without providing a lick of information and then expects an answer. Maybe by replying (politely) to such questions with a paragraph or two of 'instructions on asking a question' would save a lot of flames and also some RTFM answers. And I think the newbies would appreciate it. And we'll get Pat S. to add a paragraph about not top-posting and triming quotes and trimming sigs and...... (only partly kidding.)

Bruce Marshall wrote:

On Wednesday 17 November 2004 05:10 pm, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

I don't think we have to change one thing, we are doing just fine the way things are. Regards

I think you're right.... but it would be great if someone would come up with a short document (so it can be sent by email) that would describe the best way for a newbie to ask a question. Maybe that's all that's lacking.

I know I get pretty pee'd when someone asks an out-of-the-blue question without providing a lick of information and then expects an answer. Maybe by replying (politely) to such questions with a paragraph or two of 'instructions on asking a question' would save a lot of flames and also some RTFM answers. And I think the newbies would appreciate it.

And we'll get Pat S. to add a paragraph about not top-posting and triming quotes and trimming sigs and...... (only partly kidding.)

Granted, a person sometimes doesn't know what exactly to provide in framing a question, so they can give you some idea of what they are experiencing. With that information, you can ask them to provide specifics from log messages, config files and the output of commands, you then have something solid with which to work. In a few instances, some guys will not provide you with what you asked for, but they will forever ask for help as though you've got the error reported and instantly you should know the fix and as you know someone simply reporting that they can't connect to the internet tells you many things can stop them, so without details like ifconfig, route -n, /etc/resolv.conf and physical connections, you don't have a clue either. Top-posting --- That's past me. Ideally when following a long thread, I'm usually up to speed with what's gone before, so I'm only interested in the latest, I don't need to read the earlier stuff. If the latest is at the bottom, I scroll down to where it is. Admittedly if you come to look at a long thread for the first time, bottom posting makes sense and the previous quotes are relevant. If you follow long threads on the kernel mailing list, you will see top posting almost exclusively, those guys get hundreds of postings a day and have fully taken on board the problem, so they only want to see what's resulted from the previous situation/suggestions/patches. In some cases they will bottom post, but the previous stuff is usually trimmed to a few lines, e.g. ----------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 03:36:30PM -0800, Randy.Dunlap wrote:

...

static int __init parport_init_mode_setup(char *str) {

Yes, I'm familiar with that, but I made a patch against current top of tree.

I don't understand. Will you send another patch to fix the prototype? Andries -------------------------------------------------------------- Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and keen Flyer =====LINUX ONLY USED HERE=====

Patrick, On Thursday 18 November 2004 09:00, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Sid Boyce [11-18-04 10:29]:

...

In some cases they will bottom post, but the previous stuff is usually trimmed to a few lines, e.g.

As *should* always happen.

Absolutism is for those who don't care to think. Top-posting is _not_ always wrong. Styled / HTML mail is _not_ always inappropriate.

http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

-- Patrick Shanahan

Randall Schulz

* BandiPat [11-18-04 21:38]:

Hmm, this sounds like an insult to Patrick, doesn't it sound like an insult to the rest of you? ;o)

better to just ignore and consider. If I felt it an 'absolute' (thats vodka, isn't it), I would be flaming every post not conforming. I do feel absolutely *all* quotes should be trimmed to just what is necessary to maintain perspective. It's not a history lesson. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

On Friday 19 November 2004 23:41, Sid Boyce wrote:

I'm still curious, Pete also says he bins html mail, but I still haven't a clue what html mail is. I get mail from everywhere, Sun, OReilly, IBM etc. and it's all mail to me, so I'm curious to see a sample.

I just sent you one off-list, a news letter I get from Sun

Richard Fieldsend wrote:

One of the *brilliant* things about open source and mailing lists like this one is how you can find the answers to so many problems with your software from those more knowledgeable than you (I have Anders to thank for at least one Emacs install fix!).

However, if I'm trying to persaude others to follow me down the Linux route, one of the problems I have is that often newbies are put off by the attitude of more experienced users. Richard

I find this thread interesting and helpful. As a Suse novice i have found that much of their documentation is rather terse and cryptic, and written above the understanding level of new migrants to the OS. That is, it assumes (at times) that one size-fits-all and obviously cannot get too large or expensive. And it is often rather fragmented and not easy to find/follow. This is why this great list fills such a valuable need, in patiently helping 'us' over the early mysteries. I would like to see some optional documentation, written simply and clearly for 'newbies' to digest, prior to them moving up to the 'main' guides, info files and how-to's. Perhaps an interactive CD or DVD would do it, or a downloadable FAQ with a clear and simple hand-holding style. I think it might reduce the repetition and frustration levels, and if the archived messages were made more obvious as a source to be consulted, that too could alleviate the problems of new users. AndersJ has helped me greatly by his patience, his expertise and his willingness to explain interactions and misconceptions. If he recently got a bit ticked at a rude, demanding email it is not surprising. Please accept my heartfelt appreciation, all u gurus!

* Brian Berrigan [11-19-04 05:01]:

I would like to see some optional documentation, written simply and clearly for 'newbies' to digest, prior to them moving up to the 'main' guides, info files and how-to's. Perhaps an interactive CD or DVD would do it, or a downloadable FAQ with a clear and simple hand-holding style.

LINUX: Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/ also available in print from Amazon us$27.19 -> us$25.01 a very good starter book for Linux/*nix systems, not distro specific. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

On Friday 19 November 2004 17:57, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Patrick,

On Friday 19 November 2004 05:56, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

LINUX: Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/

OK. I give up. What does "rute" mean?

It's one of those cute self referential acronyms. Rute = Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition BTW, I had problems getting through to that site in South Africa. Here's a URL that at least responds to requests http://www.gnoppix.org/pages/rute/rute.html

Sid Boyce wrote:

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

LINUX: Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/ Regards > Sid. Anders Johansson wrote: It's one of those cute self referential acronyms. Rute = Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition

Thanks to all; some really good help and advice, again. I didn't know that tutorial was available - man it seems i get 'behinder' in my reading for every new distro. Best...

Brian Berrigan wrote:

Sid Boyce wrote:

...

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

LINUX: Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition http://www.icon.co.za/~psheer/book/

Regards > Sid.

...

Anders Johansson wrote: It's one of those cute self referential acronyms. Rute = Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition

Thanks to all; some really good help and advice, again. I didn't know that tutorial was available - man it seems i get 'behinder' in my reading for every new distro. Best...

I saw it first on freshmeat.net when it was first published, some years ago. There are so many apps and tutorials available that you will not know some excellent ones. At times I see reviews of some stuff in magazines or on this list and wonder how people came across them as I check on these things regularly, but still miss some. I suppose they look at places other than freshmeat.net, icewalkers and lwn.net. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and keen Flyer =====LINUX ONLY USED HERE=====

<Flame Shields ON> Richard, If you red my original description, it stated that I've test installed 64-bit SuSE 9.1 on the same machine without any problems. What the hell is going on with 9.2? We've already bought over 25 sets of SuSE 9.2 Pro (Update) for all our eng. dept. I won't be able to justify to our purchasing dept. your option/proposition to buy another 25 sets of more expensive SLES9 for all our computers, to achieve virtually the same functionality. 9.2 shall work on our 64 bit platforms as it advertised! End of story! Since we're all entitled for 60 days installation support we'll have to bug and create living hell for Novell/SuSE support staff in order to resolve this problem. Alex <Flame Shields OFF> On Tue, Nov 16, 2004 at 11:59:24AM -0700, Richard Mixon (qwest) wrote:

Not sure "Why the flames?". I just offered Alex another option (SLES 9), in the event he could not get SuSE PRO 9.2 working. He seems to have taken it personally. We should all move on - he's obviously not open to this option. Hopefully someone can help him solve his 9.2 problem. - Richard

-----Original Message----- From: Brad Bourn [mailto:brad@summitrd.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 8:51 AM To: suse-linux-e@suse.com Subject: Re: [SLE] SuSE9.2 64-Bit installation problems

Why the flames?

How bout provide some sound logic for him to work with?

Or is it easier to come across like you actually know what your talking about if you make fun or someone and discredit them......

B-)

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 08:29 am, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 15:35, Alex Daniloff wrote:

...

This is a typical commercial pitch I would expect from MS or other corporate drones. A bunch of meaningless buzz words used out of content. Are you a sales person by the chance? What kind of crap you're talking about? Why do I and our other engineers need 5 years maintenance? What is a maintenance? Blow dust from our boxes?

Security updates. Emergency bug fixes. Have you heard the phrase "end of life" before?

...

Why do we need all these certifications if we know what we're doing?

If you have to ask that, you don't

...

What is "enterprise-class hardware" you're talking about. We're designing circuits which used anywhere - from your cell phone to jet fighters. You can make any hardware to be an enterprise-class. What is "mission critical"? A nuclear plant or a ballistic missile?

A system your business relies on for its existence

...

Why reinstall every two years instead of simply upgrading systems to the next version? What kind of bull shit is this?

You don't know a great deal about maintaining reliable systems, do you

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Hi, On Tuesday 16 November 2004 21:31, Richard Mixon (qwest) wrote:

No flame shields needed. From your original post it was hard for me to understand you have already bought 25 copies of the 9.2 upgrade. Also your mention of the Adaptec "2120S" RAID adapter led me to assume (incorrectly) that you were working with a server.

Given the number of workstations involved using SuSE Pro is a quite logical choice, though for some SLES 9 might also work. You should expect decent installation support. I hope you get it.

Not for any RAID related issues: http://www.suse.com/en/private/support/inst_support/conditions.html Not "free" installation support that is. Obviously that would be a different story if we were talking about a business product. Greetings from Bremen hartmut

Alex Daniloff wrote:

If you red my original description, it stated that I've test installed 64-bit SuSE 9.1 on the same machine without any problems. What the hell is going on with 9.2?

I did an update of my 9.1 x86_64 install (heavily updated) with no problems. Did you try this?

We've already bought over 25 sets of SuSE 9.2 Pro (Update) for all our eng. dept. I won't be able to justify to our purchasing dept. your option/proposition to buy another 25 sets of more expensive SLES9 for all our computers, to achieve virtually the same functionality.

understood.

Since we're all entitled for 60 days installation support we'll have to bug and create living hell for Novell/SuSE support staff in order to resolve this problem.

This is reasonable. I would hope they know it at least as good as folks here (though this would have been better served on the suse-amd64@suse.com list, since it is specific to the 64 bit version). -- Joe Morris New Tribes Mission Email Address: Joe_Morris@ntm.org Registered Linux user 231871

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 20:57, Alex Daniloff wrote:

<Flame Shields ON> That's a good thing..

Richard, If you red my original description, it stated that I've test installed 64-bit SuSE 9.1 on the same machine without any problems. What the hell is going on with 9.2? We've already bought over 25 sets of SuSE 9.2 Pro (Update) for all our eng. dept. I won't be able to justify to our purchasing dept.

Now the facts come to light. You and your company went out and bought 25 copies, without even testing it. Good thinking. I realize that you thought it would work, but with the change in ownership, might it not have been prudent to check one copy out first? Sure would have save money.

your option/proposition to buy another 25 sets of more expensive SLES9 for all our computers, to achieve virtually the same functionality. 9.2 shall work on our 64 bit platforms as it advertised! End of story!

One other thing. You expect the SUSE staff to be on this list?? They haven't been here in a while. Yes, there are a couple of folks that stop by, but for the most part, they don't hang around just waiting to solve all the problems that come up on this list. Been that way for years. The re-organization and folks leaving have left this list mainly to folks that frequent it. Definitely not the SUSE staff.

Since we're all entitled for 60 days installation support we'll have to bug and create living hell for Novell/SuSE support staff in order to resolve this problem.

That's your best bet. Register all 25 or so copies, and have at it. You might get their attention. Then again, with the number of copies sold, you might have to just take a number and wait. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 9.2 Kernel 2.6.8 KDE 3.3.0 Kmail 1.7.1 For Mondo/Mindi backup support go to http://www.mikenjane.net/~mike 9:52pm up 3 days 12:54, 5 users, load average: 2.07, 2.12, 2.21

Alex Daniloff [Tue, 16 Nov 2004 11:57:18 -0800]:

I've test installed 64-bit SuSE 9.1 on the same machine without any problems. What the hell is going on with 9.2?

How about asking on suse-amd64? That's a *much* better place then suse-linux for this type of questions.

Since we're all entitled for 60 days installation support we'll have to bug and create living hell for Novell/SuSE support staff in order to resolve this problem.

If you check what is covered by the free installation support by examining http://www.suse.com/us/private/support/inst_support/support_overview.html you'll discover that RAID is *not* supported free of charge.

On Friday 19 November 2004 12:41, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

A possible solution would be to copy the 64 bit part from the DVDs to a server on the network and then boot from the CD1 and perform network install from that. The easiest would be with ftp.

Err, on second thought, I'm not so sure this is a solution.

On Tuesday 16 November 2004 09:35 am, Alex Daniloff wrote:

This is a typical commercial pitch I would expect from MS or other corporate drones. A bunch of meaningless buzz words used out of content. Are you a sales person by the chance? What kind of crap you're talking about? Why do I and our other engineers need 5 years maintenance? What is a maintenance? Blow dust from our boxes? Why do we need all these certifications if we know what we're doing? What is "enterprise-class hardware" you're talking about. We're designing circuits which used anywhere - from your cell phone to jet fighters. You can make any hardware to be an enterprise-class. What is "mission critical"? A nuclear plant or a ballistic missile? Why reinstall every two years instead of simply upgrading systems to the next version? What kind of bull shit is this? I hope you're not on drugs.

****************

[...] Alex, Did you get up this morning and take stupid pills or is this just normal thinking or behavior for "engineers"? You ask a question, many helpful users respond to the question and you attack them for pointing out the advantages of SLES? I think you need to go back to bed or learn to behave better. It seems that just being an "engineer" doesn't necessarily qualify you to do anything else, does it? ;o) Cheers, Lee -- --- KMail v1.7.1 --- SuSE Linux Pro v9.1 --- Registered Linux User #225206 "Don't let the fear of striking out keep you from playing the game!"

Alex Daniloff [Tue, 16 Nov 2004 06:35:50 -0800]:

Why do I and our other engineers need 5 years maintenance?

Because you need major and security bugs being fixed and non-SLES distributions are only maintained for two years?

What is a maintenance? Blow dust from our boxes?

http://www.suse.com/us/business/services/maintenance/index.html and follow the links.

Why do we need all these certifications if we know what we're doing?

If you have to ask, you either don't need them or don't know what you're doing. Tip: look for instance at the requirements for getting official support for Oracle.

What is "mission critical"? A nuclear plant or a ballistic missile?

How much would it cost your company if a main server is unreachable (i.e. salary for people that can do nothing)? What if accounting looses all its data? What if your central mail server goers offline for a day?

Why reinstall every two years instead of simply upgrading systems to the next version?

You can also upgrade SLES, so that argument is moot.

What kind of bull shit is this?

No bullshit at all. It just depends on your needs. Like for instance getting support that covers much more then just installation. Philipp