[opensuse] Re: Private insulting acceptable?

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Kim Leyendecker

6 Jan 2012 6 Jan '12

19:25

On 06.01.2012 18:36, Pascal Bleser wrote:

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On 2012-01-06 18:31:09 (+0100), Kim Leyendecker wrote:

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On 06.01.2012 03:58, Insomniac wrote: <snip> Written in private mail, will only make it public if he wants to.

is it acceptable for our admins and for others, that people answers you privatly and insult you for such a random topic (replying to them directly)? Could we might extend the netiquette to avoid such things in future? While I don't know about the substance of the insults, and don't really want to know, I'll answer in a more generic way :)

No, it's not acceptable to insult, attack, harass people in this project. We can all have a bad day, or react emotionally, and we should all have enough of a grain of salt to look past the occasional slip or misunderstanding. But if it happens in an extreme (stalking, harassment, discreditation, manipulation, ...) or systematic way, or on a repeated basis, then action must definitely be taken.

Such action would typically be to try to resolve the matter peacefully, e.g. explaining to that person why his/her behaviour is not acceptable, and that it will not be tolerated in this project and, if that doesn't help, the person should be removed from the project. That is obviously a last resort but, alas, it is necessary sometimes.

If you believe that is the case, please contact board@opensuse.org as that is the right piece of the puzzle to address those things.

I'm not on the board yet (AFAIK we'll switch to the new board term+team middle of next week) so I won't pick it up from here myself :)

cheers

+1 I wouldn't say that the insulting was that high, but I wanted to point out that we might want to add a sentence to the netiquette that sounds like "please keep in mind that personal insulting both on the list nor in private mail is accepted by the project and will be sanctioned by the board" just to be sure, everybody knows about (what actually should be the case already, since it's common sense.) --kdl -- kind regards, -o) German Wiki Team Kim Leyendecker /\\ Documentation& marketing www.opensuse.org _\_v leyendecker@opensuse.org ===================================================== my GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | IRC: k-d-l Twitter: kim_d_ley | Wiki-Username: openLHAG openSUSE - Linux for open minds - get it free today! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Sven Burmeister

6 Jan 6 Jan

20:26

Am Freitag, 6. Januar 2012, 19:25:39 schrieb Kim Leyendecker:

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I wouldn't say that the insulting was that high, but I wanted to point out that we might want to add a sentence to the netiquette that sounds like "please keep in mind that personal insulting both on the list nor in private mail is accepted by the project and will be sanctioned by the board"

just to be sure, everybody knows about (what actually should be the case already, since it's common sense.)

I think it would make sense. And it's quite easy to deal with "We can all have a bad day, or react emotionally" by simply expecting adult people to be able to say they are sorry after they slept a night. I do also believe though that one should have a place to forward those emails to in order to keep track of those that fall into the habit of insulting (via private mail) more than once. And IMHO the usage of terms like "ass", "fuck you" or "FOAD" and similar language should also be a reason for calling those people to order and reminding them that that kind of language is not welcome on this list. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Kim Leyendecker

21:58

On 06.01.2012 20:26, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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I do also believe though that one should have a place to forward those emails to in order to keep track of those that fall into the habit of insulting (via private mail) more than once. And IMHO the usage of terms like "ass", "fuck you" or "FOAD" and similar language should also be a reason for calling those people to order and reminding them that that kind of language is not welcome on this list.

hm, I wouldn't say it depends on the words which are said and I believe that "fuck you" shouldn't belong to them, since it isn't something real insulting, but more tells the addressee more to "change his or her point of view" [1] On the other hand, there´s a different between being direct due to you're interested in a solution instead of comforting someone example: A: There's a problem with my desktop can you help? B: Yeah, of course, here's a pdf that will help you http://www.clickhere.org/only/if/you/dont/understand/its/an/example.pdf A: Thanks but my problem isn't solved because program XYZ doesn't start B: Oh boy, read the fucking pdf, it's right on the second page. I really would understand that behavior, even more if you're doing it in your free time. What I cannot understand nor will tolerate is the following: A: Send a mail to the list and the person directly B: You're fucktard if I'd want get you're mail directly, I'd told you so. So, it depends on the point of view, but in general I'd agree with your post ;-) have a good one, --kdl -- kind regards, -o) German Wiki Team Kim Leyendecker /\\ Documentation& marketing www.opensuse.org _\_v leyendecker@opensuse.org ===================================================== my GPG Key: 664265369547B825 | IRC: k-d-l Twitter: kim_d_ley | Wiki-Username: openLHAG openSUSE - Linux for open minds - get it free today! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

22:25

* Kim Leyendecker [01-06-12 15:44]:

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I really would understand that behavior, even more if you're doing it in your free time.

What I cannot understand nor will tolerate is the following:

A: Send a mail to the list and the person directly B: You're fucktard if I'd want get you're mail directly, I'd told you so.

So, it depends on the point of view, but in general I'd agree with your post ;-)

You might possibly think a little longer on this one particular point as it *is* presented in the netiquette you do this constantly: Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 21:58:15 +0100 From: Kim Leyendecker To: Sven Burmeister Cc: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Re: Private insulting acceptable? Mailing-List: contact opensuse+help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj Private mail is that, off-list, and list mail is on list which we read. There is really no need for another email, unless the poster *specifically* requests it. :^) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

22:43

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Private mail is that, off-list, and list mail is on list which we read. There is really no need for another email, unless the poster *specifically* requests it.

I personally wish the netiquette was updated to do the opposite. I know this specific list has people that are bothered by seeing the same email come in from both the sender and from the list. But on the lkml lists as an example is very much against netiquette to not do a reply-all. That allows people to setup filters to highlight emails in conversations in which they are participating, but to leave other conversations grouped in their low-priority list mailbox. This list as an example has enough traffic it would be nice to have 2 folders setup, one for conversations I'm not part of and one for those I am part of. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

22:47

* Greg Freemyer [01-06-12 16:45]:

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This list as an example has enough traffic it would be nice to have 2 folders setup, one for conversations I'm not part of and one for those I am part of.

Procmail and header flags :^) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

22:56

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Greg Freemyer [01-06-12 16:45]:

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This list as an example has enough traffic it would be nice to have 2 folders setup, one for conversations I'm not part of and one for those I am part of.

Procmail and header flags :^)

What header flag would I use for conversation with say 5 participants? With the lkml model, my name would be on the cc: line, so its a easy filter. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

23:06

* Greg Freemyer [01-06-12 16:59]:

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On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Greg Freemyer [01-06-12 16:45]:

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This list as an example has enough traffic it would be nice to have 2 folders setup, one for conversations I'm not part of and one for those I am part of.

Procmail and header flags :^)

What header flag would I use for conversation with say 5 participants?

your choice, make one up and search for it on incoming mail. X-Header: I participated in this thread

...

With the lkml model, my name would be on the cc: line, so its a easy filter.

And this way it would be in the header, another *easy* filter. I'm not sure but possibly could especially color threads where I have posted, my site would appear in the References: header line: References: <1325356188.5086.6.camel@linux-duc8> ... <20120106212532.GF8600@wahoo.no-ip.org> shows that I have participated in a thread and, for me, works even when I use gmail addrs. But with the amount of email these days, I filter dups directly to the bit-bucket. It's just additional unnecessary traffic. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Kim Leyendecker

23:49

On 06.01.2012 22:25, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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Private mail is that, off-list, and list mail is on list which we read. There is really no need for another email, unless the poster *specifically* requests it.

I do this for a good reason. I don't know why, but even if I *configure* Thunderbird to send non-HTML mails, it sometimes does, with the result that the mail haven't achieved the list. *If* I reply to the person I answer, at least *the person* gets it. That's all. I can understand if people don't want me to do so, and I try to avoid this in future if the request me to stop it, but if there's someone that come up and insults you just for such a random thing, don't you also get angry about it? And yes, I too would support the LKML scheme, just in case anyone wants my opinion on it ;-) --kdl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister

7 Jan 7 Jan

00:12

Am Freitag, 6. Januar 2012, 21:58:15 schrieb Kim Leyendecker:

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On 06.01.2012 20:26, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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I do also believe though that one should have a place to forward those emails to in order to keep track of those that fall into the habit of insulting (via private mail) more than once. And IMHO the usage of terms like "ass", "fuck you" or "FOAD" and similar language should also be a reason for calling those people to order and reminding them that that kind of language is not welcome on this list.

hm, I wouldn't say it depends on the words which are said and I believe that "fuck you" shouldn't belong to them, since it isn't something real insulting, but more tells the addressee more to "change his or her point of view" [1]

One could start discussing the exceptions etc. but in general I think that such language does not belong on this list. So whoever uses it – apart from showing off his education – should get a warning and if insulting people continuously, get removed from the list. I'm not talking about friends interacting or whatever, I'm talking about how to talk to people in general, i.e. you do not go to somebody selling you a ticket or whatever and think it's ok that they tell you to "fuck you" or call you names like as, leaving alone FOAD. In fact I would ban people for the latter instantly until the apologise. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Peter Nikolic

00:49

On Friday 06 January 2012 19:26:57 Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Freitag, 6. Januar 2012, 19:25:39 schrieb Kim Leyendecker:

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I wouldn't say that the insulting was that high, but I wanted to point out that we might want to add a sentence to the netiquette that sounds like "please keep in mind that personal insulting both on the list nor in private mail is accepted by the project and will be sanctioned by the board"

just to be sure, everybody knows about (what actually should be the case already, since it's common sense.)

I think it would make sense. And it's quite easy to deal with "We can all have a bad day, or react emotionally" by simply expecting adult people to be able to say they are sorry after they slept a night.

I do also believe though that one should have a place to forward those emails to in order to keep track of those that fall into the habit of insulting (via private mail) more than once. And IMHO the usage of terms like "ass", "fuck you" or "FOAD" and similar language should also be a reason for calling those people to order and reminding them that that kind of language is not welcome on this list.

Sven

I see a lot of pot callingh kettle black going on here while we are on whinges it iks about time that Patrick stopped with his silly games of forwarding list mails to my personal mail . Oh and by the way you wont have to worry too much soon about sore points being dragged up by me i have found a far better linux and only have this box left on suse for a short while while i round up funds for the new Hard drive Se Yall pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.10-0.4-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.6.5 (4.6.5) "release 7" 23:45 up 14:49, 4 users, load average: 0.09, 0.20, 0.22 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

02:00

On 07/01/12 10:49, Peter Nikolic wrote:

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On Friday 06 January 2012 19:26:57 Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Freitag, 6. Januar 2012, 19:25:39 schrieb Kim Leyendecker:

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I wouldn't say that the insulting was that high, but I wanted to point out that we might want to add a sentence to the netiquette that sounds like "please keep in mind that personal insulting both on the list nor in private mail is accepted by the project and will be sanctioned by the board"

just to be sure, everybody knows about (what actually should be the case already, since it's common sense.) I think it would make sense. And it's quite easy to deal with "We can all have a bad day, or react emotionally" by simply expecting adult people to be able to say they are sorry after they slept a night.

I do also believe though that one should have a place to forward those emails to in order to keep track of those that fall into the habit of insulting (via private mail) more than once. And IMHO the usage of terms like "ass", "fuck you" or "FOAD" and similar language should also be a reason for calling those people to order and reminding them that that kind of language is not welcome on this list.

Sven I see a lot of pot callingh kettle black going on here while we are on whinges it iks about time that Patrick stopped with his silly games of forwarding list mails to my personal mail .

Oh and by the way you wont have to worry too much soon about sore points being dragged up by me i have found a far better linux and only have this box left on suse for a short while while i round up funds for the new Hard drive

Yes, you have already told us that you have moved to Flaccidmechandise :-) .

...

Se Yall pete .

Good luck, Pete. BC -- What religion were Adam and Eve? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

8 Jan 8 Jan

17:44

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2012-01-06 at 16:25 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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Cc: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] Re: Private insulting acceptable? Mailing-List: contact opensuse+help@opensuse.org; run by mlmmj

Private mail is that, off-list, and list mail is on list which we read. There is really no need for another email, unless the poster *specifically* requests it.

:^)

I really don't care about private copies, they don't bother me. I have a procmail filter that puts those out on a different folder (which I do not read). It's a non issue. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk8JyA4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VZgACfXAnmRr7M752Zw17c1zugeynm UCQAoIbZEWOkV/A6a2nIUeKUzeor0VC7 =d2dy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister

19:07

Am Sonntag, 8. Januar 2012, 17:44:51 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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I really don't care about private copies, they don't bother me. I have a procmail filter that puts those out on a different folder (which I do not read). It's a non issue.

If it's a non-issue why did you create a filter? If they don't bother you, why did you create a filter in the first place? Or did your argumentation start at the wrong end and they did bother you and were an issue to you – hence you created a filter. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

9 Jan 9 Jan

04:46

New subject: [opensuse] Private mails acceptable?

On Sunday, January 08, 2012 12:07:04 PM Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Sonntag, 8. Januar 2012, 17:44:51 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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I really don't care about private copies, they don't bother me. I have a procmail filter that puts those out on a different folder (which I do not read). It's a non issue.

If it's a non-issue why did you create a filter? If they don't bother you, why did you create a filter in the first place?

Or did your argumentation start at the wrong end and they did bother you and were an issue to you – hence you created a filter.

Sven

Slight misunderstanding :) All sentences are within one paragraph, so they are related. First claim, then explanation. Classic style. The other way to express the same is: "I really don't care about private copies, they don't bother me, because I have a procmail filter that puts those out in a different folder (which I do not read), so it's a non-issue.", but this way you get a sausage that is hard to decipher, which is never recommended, even though it can be fun in some occasions, like this one ... :) I could have slammed some more, making a good example better, why his style is nice and readable. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

15 Jan 15 Jan

00:50

New subject: [opensuse] Private mails acceptable?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2012-01-08 at 21:46 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:

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On Sunday, January 08, 2012 12:07:04 PM Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Sonntag, 8. Januar 2012, 17:44:51 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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All sentences are within one paragraph, so they are related. First claim, then explanation. Classic style.

The other way to express the same is: "I really don't care about private copies, they don't bother me, because I have a procmail filter that puts those out in a different folder (which I do not read), so it's a non-issue.", but this way you get a sausage that is hard to decipher, which is never recommended, even though it can be fun in some occasions, like this one ... :)

I could have slammed some more, making a good example better, why his style is nice and readable.

Mmm, thanks. I was told I write quite well in English, but Internet is a fast media and I do not always invest too much effort and time writing emails, to make them perfect writing. But I'm not good at analyzing English. Nor even Spanish. :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk8SFKsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wz9gCfTfbuhH5gm4P+qqApmk0wJgjw pk0An2dk64MKOXWS/1Brg5kUt0zqUmtO =ClAF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister

10:18

New subject: [opensuse] Private mails acceptable?

Am Sonntag, 8. Januar 2012, 21:46:11 schrieb Rajko M.:

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I could have slammed some more, making a good example better, why his style is nice and readable.

I prefer non-ambiguous styles in discussions, i.e. inserting some words like "because" or "after". Yet thanks for pointing out that those mails were indeed an annoyance to him and triggered and action to solve that state. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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participants (8)

Basil Chupin
Carlos E. R.
Greg Freemyer
Kim Leyendecker
Patrick Shanahan
Peter Nikolic
Rajko M.
Sven Burmeister