Choice is a wonderful thing. Yes, subfs makes Linux work like Windows for floppy and CD. That is not per se an improvement, it is just a change. Far more preferable for a distribution would be to offer a choice. This is especially true in the case of subfs, which as shipped is broken in more than one place. Yes, I can change it back (maybe), but what do I do about the next release? What do I do about the several hundred users I support? Most of them are comfortable with the concept of mount/umount. Anybody tried mounting an already subfs mounted device? Unfortunately it works. Mount shows the device mounted at two dirs and can indeed be accessed via those dirs. However, neither mount can be unmounted (I presume because each mount sees the other mount as in use). Simple to fix, just reboot (Windows like behavior I normally try to avoid with Linux). After having installed 9.1 on a dozen or so x86 and x86_64 machines, single and dual processors, with varying disk and graphic setups, I feel ambivalent about it. There are many nice improvements and of course the wonderful new kernel. Then there are things like subfs, which causes me a great deal of embarrassment. The first client machine I put 9.1 on, I still do not have their USB devices working flawlessly (as they did under 9.0). "Here, use this, it is better but it is broken!", does not go well in the real world. SuSE keep up the good work but remember, there is a layer of expertise between you and most users of your product (present company excepted). Now the problem. New install of SuSE 9.1. USB devices neither seen nor mountable in any fashion. Floppy and DVD-R/W using subfs OK. YOU automatic update. Some USB devices subfs mount and are accessible. Some subfs mount but are NOT accessible (either read or write). Some (CF+ Microdrive, fat16 or fat32) are in some kind of system purgatory. Fdisk -l shows the device and partition (eg. sda1). fdisk /dev/sda shows sda1 partition and allows manipulation, changes, etc. lsusb shows the interconnect. No subfs mount. YAST disk partitioner shows sda disk but no sda1 partition! Absolutely no way I can get this to mount (sda1 is not a block device!). YAST disk partitioner; create sda1 on sda (obliterating data on disk); mount point obligatory. mount shows subfs mount of Microdrive (hooray!) and regular mount by YAST at mount point (OOPS!) Reading and writing to Microdrive works fine (and fast) via both mounts but will not unmount (see above). Reboot, fdisk -l sees sda1, YAST does not, no subfs mount, sda1 not a block device. Back in pugatory. Probably just my not knowing how this is supposed to work, so could someone point me to some good documentation (other than what comes with 9.1 on subfs and USB)? Or, if subfs is still subpar, where are the instructions on going back to 9.0 behaviour? Best Regards, Bob |---------+----------------------------> | | BandiPat | | | | | | | | | 06/07/04 08:35 PM| | | | |---------+---------------------------->

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: SuSE Linux List | | cc: | | Subject: [SLE] subfs & Doug's ranting | -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Doug remarked: I wasn't asking permission, I was asking what the devil this is (subfs), and why we should have it at all? /rant on It also seems to me, that if Linux is to become a desktop system, it has to become more user-friendly, not less. If it is only going to be used in the corporate workplace, then probably a lot of these protective devices need to be in place, but if I'm going to use it in my home--without any kids, even--then there should be a simple way to turn most of these protections off. There does not seem to be any real need to prevent the user from writing to most of the media, except the root files. There might be a simple setup to allow a few users (mom, Pop, and the kids) separate permissions, but the idea of preventing anyone from doing anything ever is ridiculous. And, even someone in an office might like to copy something to a floppy or a CD for safe keeping. Yeah, maybe Linux doesn't crash, but systems do. rant off/ --doug =============== Doug, You obviously haven't seen 9.1 yet or you would have a better understanding of the subfs system. As Patrick pointed out, it is indeed something to add user friendliness to the Linux desktop. It is something that is needed to draw other OS users to Linux on the desktop. How many times have you tried explaining to someone why you have to "mount" or "unmount" removable drives in Linux? They begin to think you are talking about your computer in sexual terms after a bit! ;o) That is the reason for subfs system, to eliminate that. I think this relates to the "supermount" project, which kinda died and is now the "submount" thing in SuSE. You no longer have to mount or unmount, it's done automatically with this. Just put a disc/disk in, it reads it, opens it and when done, hit the eject button on the drive! I too agree with Patrick, in that a bit of reading before ranting might have helped to prevent the rant. ;o) As always, Linux is about choice and you can revert your setup back to the old way, if you so desire. So far, I haven't seen any reason to do that as this is quite convenient and I'm already spoiled. Regards, Lee -- --- KMail v1.6.2 --- SuSE Linux Pro v9.1 --- Registered Linux User #225206 On any other day, that might seem strange... -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com