On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:45:06 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." wrote:

That's how this list is configured. Reasons are on the FAQ. Method for

Setting reply-to is surely not a matter of list configuration but of user choice. Some people set reply-to to be their own address when mailing lists. It would be more convenient for the community if they didn't. - Richard. -- Richard Kimber http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/

Hartmut, On Tuesday 03 August 2004 21:11, Hartmut Meyer wrote:

Hi,

On Tuesday 03 August 2004 23:37, rkimber@ntlworld.com wrote:

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On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:45:06 +0200 (CEST)

"Carlos E. R." wrote:

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That's how this list is configured. Reasons are on the FAQ. Method for

Setting reply-to is surely not a matter of list configuration but of user choice.

I'm sorry, but that's plain wrong!

With a mailing list the headers are rewritten by the mailing list software.

Reply-To can be rewritten by list management software, but with well run lists it is not. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Randall Schulz

Greetings from Bremen hartmut

Hi, On Wednesday 04 August 2004 08:23, Hartmut Meyer wrote:

On Wednesday 04 August 2004 07:12, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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On Tuesday 03 August 2004 21:11, Hartmut Meyer wrote:

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On Tuesday 03 August 2004 23:37, rkimber@ntlworld.com wrote:

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Setting reply-to is surely not a matter of list configuration but of user choice.

I'm sorry, but that's plain wrong!

With a mailing list the headers are rewritten by the mailing list software.

Reply-To can be rewritten by list management software, but with well run lists it is not.

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

That is arguing against setting the Reply-To to the list (and rightly so).

I did set the Reply-To of *this* e-mail to suse-linux-e@suse.com. Unless I'm mistaken the maililing list software (ezmlm here) will replace that with a Reply-To that is the same as in either From or Return-Path (in other words: back to me).

I was wrong and you where right: the Reply-To was not rewritten by the mailing list software but instead left unchanged the way I had set it in my MUA. Greetings from Bremen hartmut

Randall R Schulz wrote:

Reply-To can be rewritten by list management software, but with well run lists it is not.

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

The other side of the coin: http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml -- "Never tire of doing what is right." 2 Thessalonians 3:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/

Hi, On Wednesday 04 August 2004 20:59, James Knott wrote:

Felix Miata wrote:

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Randall R Schulz wrote:

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http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

The other side of the coin: http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml

I certianly agreee with this.

Many people don't, but that doesn't make that argument any better.

The current list proceedure is a pain! The vast majortity of the replies go to the list. As long as the message contains a From: field, it's not a problem to reply only to the sender. However, with the current setup, if I don't remember to change the To: box, I will send only to the originator and then have to resend to the list.

Why not use a proper MUA? One that allows you to do a list-reply. Don't make others pay for your bad choice of a mail client (it would have to be either bad choice or missing knowledge about how to use it).

This list is *BROKEN*, no matter what some of the others say.

And no matter what you say we (SUSE) will not "fix" this but leave it as it is. No offense meant, but this is a discussion we will not give in to. So, you're waisting your energy ;-) Greetings from Bremen hartmut

The Wednesday 2004-08-04 at 22:10 +0200, Hartmut Meyer wrote:

Why not use a proper MUA? One that allows you to do a list-reply. Don't make others pay for your bad choice of a mail client (it would have to be either bad choice or missing knowledge about how to use it).

Mozilla should be considered a proper MUA, and it doesn't have a list-reply. Pine is another clasic MUA, and it doesn't have it either. There are a good number of MUAs not list aware.

...

This list is *BROKEN*, no matter what some of the others say.

And no matter what you say we (SUSE) will not "fix" this but leave it as it is.

No offense meant, but this is a discussion we will not give in to. So, you're waisting your energy ;-)

Agreed :-) But, could you convince Mozilla people to add a list-reply function? Surely, a request comming from SuSE will be considered better than from any of us. Also, functions as thread watch/ignore, as the same mozilla has for news groups, would also be nice. O:-) -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Wednesday 04 August 2004 16:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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But, could you convince Mozilla people to add a list-reply function? Surely, a request comming from SuSE will be considered better than from any of us.

The classic answer is that Mozilla is open source, so if you want a feature, the best way to bring it about is to dig in, write the code and contribute it to the project...

This old bug exists and is marked helpwanted: http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45715

...

Also, functions as thread watch/ignore, as the same mozilla has for news groups, would also be nice.

Do those functions make sense in a mail client? They seem somewhat specific to a newsreader, where you're not being sent messages, you're reading them from a centralized repository.

Note the product of the above bug is mailnews. Mozilla has no mail product. http://www.mozilla.org/ The reason is that the overlap is so high between a news client and a mail client that to exclude the functions of either from the other is to define the word silliless. -- "Never tire of doing what is right." 2 Thessalonians 3:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/

The Wednesday 2004-08-04 at 16:50 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Wednesday 04 August 2004 16:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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And no matter what you say we (SUSE) will not "fix" this but leave it as it is.

No offense meant, but this is a discussion we will not give in to. So, you're waisting your energy ;-)

Waisting energy is becoming a big health problem, at least hear in the U.S.A.

Please notice that I did not say that, but Hartmut Meyer, who I believe to be a SuSE employee.

...

But, could you convince Mozilla people to add a list-reply function? Surely, a request comming from SuSE will be considered better than from any of us.

The classic answer is that Mozilla is open source, so if you want a feature, the best way to bring it about is to dig in, write the code and contribute it to the project...

Oh, yea, I have nothing else to do but learn enough about mozilla internals to contribute programing to it... by the time I started to comprehend the current version, they would be around version 20. Be serious! That "classical answer" can only be given to somebody you know in advance that can contribute to a project programming for it. Unless you know that, it is just junk. And Felix Miata just said the feature/bug is there, so I'll have to wait. Meanwhile, I can not use mozilla for this list - which is a pity.

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Also, functions as thread watch/ignore, as the same mozilla has for news groups, would also be nice.

Do those functions make sense in a mail client? They seem somewhat specific to a newsreader, where you're not being sent messages, you're reading them from a centralized repository.

No, they make sense. Kmail has it, for example... -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

The Thursday 2004-08-05 at 22:38 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

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No offense meant, but this is a discussion we will not give in to. So, you're waisting your energy ;-)

Waisting energy is becoming a big health problem, at least hear in the U.S.A.

Please notice that I did not say that, but Hartmut Meyer, who I believe to be a SuSE employee.

I was making fun out of a typo: "wasting" vs. "waisting" ... "waisting energy" ... "putting energy [stores] on your waist" ... "getting fat." I even added an analogous typo of my own: "hear" / "here".

Then, you should tell that to the person that said it, not to me; because you did not keep his name when you quoted his text. And, being this an international list, where not everybody's first language is English, understanding jokes is not so simple - even less if you don't use smileys to mark them.

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The classic answer is that Mozilla is open source, so if you want a feature, the best way to bring it about is to dig in, write the code and contribute it to the project...

Oh, yea, I have nothing else to do but learn enough about mozilla internals to contribute programing to it... by the time I started to comprehend the current version, they would be around version 20.

Then just sit tight and wait for someone else to do it, but don't complain because no one takes the initiative to give you what you want.

I don't complain, I simply ask somebody that I think to be influential to use his influence. Do you think that is offensive? Because I think that telling me to go and do it myself is not very considerate.

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Be serious!

That "classical answer" can only be given to somebody you know in advance that can contribute to a project programming for it. Unless you know that, it is just junk.

And Felix Miata just said the feature/bug is there, so I'll have to wait. Meanwhile, I can not use mozilla for this list - which is a pity.

There's absolutely no reason whatsoever you cannot use Mozilla's mail client with this list.

Except that it doesn't have a "reply to list" command. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

Doug McGarrett wrote:

Why not just use KMail?

Aside from the fact it frequently dies, I don't care for it.

Wed, 04 Aug 2004, by james.knott@rogers.com:

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

Why not just use KMail?

Aside from the fact it frequently dies, I don't care for it.

Tried kmail last week, fsckd my mailboxes really good. I fed it the locations of my maildir boxes, expecting to be able to go to each individual box to read mail from it, like I do in Mutt. Instead kmail took all the mail from all of these boxes and put it all together in 'inbox'. Great, took me a couple of hours to sort that out again (thanks to the great regexp tagging in Mutt, otherwise I would've been really fsckd). I'm sure graphical apps are great for some people, but until the people who write these apps also write better docs for them I'll thay away as far as possible thank you very much. Theo -- Theo v. Werkhoven Registered Linux user# 99872 http://counter.li.org ICBM 52 13 27N , 4 29 45E. + ICQ: 277217131 SUSE 9.1 + Jabber: gurp@nedlinux.nl Kernel 2.6.5 + MSN: twe-msn@ferrets4me.xs4all.nl See headers for PGP/GPG info. +

Jim Sabatke wrote:

I've had odd problems with kmail too. I'm glad people like it and use it, after all, Linux is about choices and not having a single solution forced on people.

Such as the way this list forces people to use certain mail programs, to resolve a broken practice?

Jim Sabatke wrote:

James Knott wrote:

...

Such as the way this list forces people to use certain mail programs, to resolve a broken practice?

Yes! I kind look at it as, it's their list and they can run it as they please, no matter how annoying it is to some of us.

Would it be better to have the reply to be set as suse-linux-e with a lot of the misconfigured mail servers, auto responders, etc. out there? All we need is an autoresponder loop, i.e a vacation reply sent to every email to the list, then resent to its own message because of the reply-to, multiplied by how many times. Not for me, there are enough messages to deal with as is. -- Joe Morris New Tribes Mission Email Address: Joe_Morris@ntm.org Registered Linux user 231871

* James Knott [08-05-04 11:27]:

Such as the way this list forces people to use certain mail programs, to resolve a broken practice?

If *what* way have you been forced? You are able to use the list, but it *is* necessary to conform to the standards dictated by the list, if you *wish* to participate. It is *your* own personal preferences you are wishing to impose on others that you are unsatisfied with. You are *beating* a dead horse, but then again, perhaps I am also! -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org

On Thursday 05 August 2004 02:00, Doug McGarrett wrote:

Why not just use KMail? I've been using it for a couple of months now, and I see no reason to go to something else. I've had no real problems with Konqueror as a web-browser, either, except with the rare site that only works with IE--and I can generally do without that site! (I do without it in Windows also--I don't use IE, I don't need the viruses, etc.)

For several reasons, the main one is that I use gnome. But see, I'm using kmail right now (from inside gnome). After grinding for about two minutes, it popped about 90 message windows about indexes being out of date (almost collapsing my machine on the process), which took me several minutes to close one by one. Very true, it is a very nice program. It is pointing at me in red letters when ever I misstype a word. It has many features I want, like watch/ignore a thread. Some features fail - the signature below is missing, for example, unless it pastes it at the end.

* Hylton Conacher (ZR1HPC) [08-06-04 13:18]:

I thought linux was about choice, about not being forced into using a single web browser or email client?

It is about *choice*. You have the choice to use the email client of your preference, but it is *your* *duty* to *learn* to use that client in observance of the *standards* set by the list. It is not the fault of the list that you are not adept in the operation of your *chosen* email client.

Are any of the GUI email clients that have recently made the news, due to Microsoft's IE' failure as a web browser, like Mozilla and Thunderbird considered a 'proper MUA' or does one have to use the 'mail' command from the command line?

Proper, IMNSHO, is a poor choice of words, in this case. *Your* choice is proper provided you are able to use it within the guidelines set by the list.

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This list is *BROKEN*, no matter what some of the others say. I will second, third and continue to support the above until SuSE pulls some finger and listens to its users, and changes the reply-to feature of one of the main lists used for support of its users.

You *have* stated *your* *opinion*!

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And no matter what you say we (SUSE) will not "fix" this but leave it as it is. Turning your back on the people who have supported and helped you grow is not good business practice.

You would prefer that SuSE drop support for the list. It is provided for *your* benefit for *free*.

SuSE is not the only distribution out there, and regardless of how superior SuSE may feel as a top notch distribution, it can be changed very simply.

You will be *missed* (??).

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No offense meant, but this is a discussion we will not give in to. So, you're waisting your energy ;-) Non taken, but we as users, and the people who have got you to where you are, want something in return.

You take much liberty with the use of the word 'we' in the previous sentence. Speak for yourself, please. Other that the few *vocal* individuals who have posted disagreement, you have little support or following.

Unfortunately be not giving in to it, it is not a discussion but a statement by SuSE.

They are in a perfect position to make a statement pertaining to the list. They *own* this/the list, and thru their generosity, *allow* you to participate. You seem to enjoy slapping the face of the one pulling the strings. Freely given an apple pie, you would complain that it was not peach, as you are above. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

On Friday 06 August 2004 06:03 pm, Felix Miata wrote:

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

You take much liberty with the use of the word 'we' in the previous sentence. Speak for yourself, please. Other that the few *vocal* individuals who have posted disagreement, you have little support or following.

Then maybe it's time for "we" to put up. It is not reasonable to assume that only those that have voiced their opinion disagree with list policy. The vocal are but a sample of the whole, whether for or against. What someone could do is go to http://groups.yahoo.com/start (or Google groups, which I think also provides free mailing list service) to set up a new SuSE list, complete with reply-tos set to the list, then invite all here to sign up there, AND quit participating here (not necessarily unsubscribe). Let's see who likes it inconvenient and who likes it like most other lists. I'm on around 40 lists, and this is the only one I can think of that forces me to remember to hit reply-all to get my reply to go where it belongs. On the new list the mommy should set up a poll to see just how many have subscribed due to the smarter reply-to policy, then report back here just how few or many we number.

Doesn't anyone of you 'complainers' use procmail? A simple recipe solves the entire problem. And I am sure there are at least 4 others ways to do it automatically. Even those that use Thunderbird or Moz could change the way they receive their email and gain some other advantages too, like using Spamassassin or Dspam. But, oh well. Start your new list, and enjoy... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ + Bruce S. Marshall bmarsh@bmarsh.com Bellaire, MI 08/06/04 18:19 + +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "There are 336 dimples on a regulation golf ball."

On Friday 06 August 2004 07:50 pm, James Knott wrote:

Bruce Marshall wrote:

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Doesn't anyone of you 'complainers' use procmail? A simple recipe solves the entire problem. And I am sure there are at least 4 others ways to do it automatically.

I don't.

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Even those that use Thunderbird or Moz could change the way they receive their email and gain some other advantages too, like using Spamassassin or Dspam.

But, oh well. Start your new list, and enjoy...

So, in order to follow a practice, that's not used in any other list I subscribe to, I have to change my practice or software, to satisfy someone, who thinks this is the "correct" way to do it?

Well, I guess you're entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be. ;-)

You might also try not sending email to both the list and to the responder as you did with this reply. Seems you have more than one thing to learn here. -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ + Bruce S. Marshall bmarsh@bmarsh.com Bellaire, MI 08/06/04 20:14 + +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "White hair is not a sign of wisdom, only age" - Greek proverb

* Richard Mixon (qwest) [08-06-04 20:02]:

You just made his point for him - he has to remember to remove the extra name from the "To" address.

You mean he *actually* needs to *know* how to use his chosen email client? Too much.... -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 20:40:52 -0500 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

You mean he *actually* needs to *know* how to use his chosen email client? Too much....

There's a distinction between knowing how to use a piece of software (i.e. how to achieve a desired result using the software) and remembering to checki and alter a field some of the time. Much of this problem would go away if people didn't set a reply-to with their own software. It isn't in the interest of the community that they do it when they mail a communal list, especially one that has the policy that this one has. - Richard. -- Richard Kimber http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/

Today at 11:04pm, James Knott wrote:

If the policy of this list is so brilliant(?), why is it that this is the only one I've seen it on? Why are all the other lists "wrong" and this one "right"?

No one has said the list policy is right; it is what it is, and SuSE have stated their reasons for it. You and a few others have made your opinions clear, and now all you're accomplishing is a demonstration of your stubbornness. Give up, change your "reply" habit, use the very simple procmail recipe, or get off the list and leave the rest of us to talk about real problems. Jim Cunning

I know I've heard complaints about KMail, but I've been using it for a couple of months without problems. It has never crashed on me. Just check "reply to list" and that's where it will go. Just like this email will. --doug On Friday 06 August 2004 23:04, James Knott wrote:

Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

You might also try not sending email to both the list and to the responder as you did with this reply. Seems you have more than one thing to learn here.

The only reason you got two copies, was because I forgot to change the address to the list, before sending. I then resent to the list address. While it wasn't intentional, it's an example of why it's a stupid policy. Whenever I reply to an e-mail from anywhere else, but this list, I "reply" to send my message. I don't have to change the address, nor do I have to hit a special key, so that the reply goes to the list. I just reply and it goes to the proper recipient. What could be simpler and more reasonable than that???

If the policy of this list is so brilliant(?), why is it that this is the only one I've seen it on? Why are all the other lists "wrong" and this one "right"?

On Saturday 07 August 2004 00:51, James Knott wrote:

Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

I know I've heard complaints about KMail, but I've been using it for a couple of months without problems. It has never crashed on me. Just check "reply to list" and that's where it will go. Just like this email will. --doug

In addition to the crashes, it often complains that it's been disconnected from the server. The server in this case happens to be imap running on the same computer. Mozilla doesn't have that problem, nor does Netscape on OS/2 nor Mozilla or Outlook Express on Windows. I've also run Evolution and Lotus Notes in the past, and neither of them had that problem either.

What is it what you guys have against Kmail ? It does everything what it has to do , and perfect. Never ever crashed on me, NEVER had any problems in reply to list. :-) It just works perfect and fast! About a month ago when I had a SUSE crash I was forced to use a different Email program, tried them all but what a difference with Kmail!!!!!!!! The ease of using Kmail is just incredible . Just my 2 cents. -- Greetings from /bill at 169 west , 19 south. Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors."

Felix Miata [Fri, 06 Aug 2004 18:03:25 -0400]:

What someone could do is go to http://groups.yahoo.com/start (or Google groups, which I think also provides free mailing list service) to set up a new SuSE list, complete with reply-tos set to the list, then invite all here to sign up there,

You are free to do whatever you like. So why don't you try to do what you describe?

see just how many have subscribed due to the smarter reply-to policy, then report back here just how few or many we number.

This wouldn't be smarter, just more convenient for some of the folks on the list including you. I know what I'm talking about because my MUA doesn't have a list reply, so I have to use 'reply to all' and then edit To: and Cc:. And guess what, it works :) Philipp

Because of the growth of Linux, we will continue to have new users on this list who may not be familiar with Linux. IMHO, when responding to questions, we should try to provide an intelligible answer. We also have many users whose primary language is not English. Let's try to provide help for anyone who answers a question. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 09:35:07 -0400 Jerry Feldman wrote:

Because of the growth of Linux, we will continue to have new users on this list who may not be familiar with Linux. IMHO, when responding to questions, we should try to provide an intelligible answer. We also have many users whose primary language is not English. Let's try to provide help for anyone who answers a question.

Jerry, I've been on this list for some years now, and have always tried to help others within the limit of my knowledge. This thread is nothing about learning, but about arguing. You can find in the archives my posts about supporting those who do speak English as a first language, but who wish to improve their knowledge of both Linux and English. This thread appears to be about neither. Terence

Hylton Conacher (ZR1HPC) wrote:

...

Hi,

On Wednesday 04 August 2004 20:59, James Knott wrote:

...

Felix Miata wrote:

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Randall R Schulz wrote:

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http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

The other side of the coin: http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml Stuff the two sides of a coin. The USERS want the Reply-to email to be

Hartmut Meyer wrote: the list email. Hell, I am sure Sir Meyer can see what happens if I had just pressed reply on Mozilla, he gets TWO copies.

with the amount of press linux and Mozilla/Thunderbird is getting, perhaps it is time for the list sysadmin to change their view, or the view of their superiors, especially given the unhappiness voiced by so many of the list subscribers.

...

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The current list proceedure is a pain! I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree!!!

A am a member on over 35 lists generating about 300 email messages a day and every single one, except SLE, has the Reply-To email address set to the list email.

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The vast majortity of the replies go to the list. Hear hear. All the subscribers are in the business of learning about the OS and do not have many, if any, personal emails using the list mechanism. We all use the list to 'talk' to one another about learning about SuSE linux and so WHY should the list be so broken that it cannot even do what most of us want ie to reply to the list!?

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message contains a From: field, it's not a problem to reply only to the sender. However, with the current setup, if I don't remember to change the To: box, I will send only to the originator and then have to resend to the list. People who send to the list as well are the fortunate ones as they realize they have only sent it to the sender. Of course the initial sender is unluckier as with the Reply-to list settings the way they are,

As long as the the initial sender gets double the amount of email as they have to not only download it when it was initially replied to but also when the replier sends it to the list as well.

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Why not use a proper MUA? One that allows you to do a list-reply. Don't make others pay for your bad choice of a mail client (it would have to be either bad choice or missing knowledge about how to use it). I thought linux was about choice, about not being forced into using a single web browser or email client? Are any of the GUI email clients that have recently made the news, due to Microsoft's IE' failure as a web browser, like Mozilla and Thunderbird considered a 'proper MUA' or does one have to use the 'mail' command from the command line?

...

...

This list is *BROKEN*, no matter what some of the others say. I will second, third and continue to support the above until SuSE pulls some finger and listens to its users, and changes the reply-to feature of one of the main lists used for support of its users.

...

And no matter what you say we (SUSE) will not "fix" this but leave it as it is. Turning your back on the people who have supported and helped you grow is not good business practice. SuSE is not the only distribution out there, and regardless of how superior SuSE may feel as a top notch distribution, it can be changed very simply. Ask Bill Gates how he lost so many of his customers, asides from the BSOD?

...

No offense meant, but this is a discussion we will not give in to. So, you're waisting your energy ;-) Non taken, but we as users, and the people who have got you to where you are, want something in return. Unfortunately be not giving in to it, it is not a discussion but a statement by SuSE. 'Wasted' energy does marvelous things, ask Linus.

Groete van Kaapstad, Suide Afrika Hylton

-- The Little Helper

For what my 2 cents are worth, I do not want SuSE to "win the battle, and lose the war" on this issue. It is their list and they can certainly do what they wish. But for (SuSE) Linux to grow it may be time for a fresh perspective on the issue. I certainly will continue with the list regardless - it is not much of an issue to me now that I have learned to : Reply all, remove the author's name, move the list address from the cc to the to field, send (still, I occasionally forget and reply incorrectly :). Its the new audience that I would be more concerned with. Compared to all of the other lists out there, it appears a "strange" convention and just reinforces the perception of many that working with Linux and Unix is a trial in frustration and is counterintuitive. Forget that fact, that this statement applies to all software when you are new to it - this is a perception of many. Our company is completely committed to SuSE Linux on the server side and investigating it heavily for some development workstation use. Still, most of our desktop use is Microsoft, including Outlook. This may change over time, but hopefully does not disqualify us from participating in the list and pursuing our Linux server direction. - Richard

-----Original Message----- From: Danny Sauer [mailto:suse-linux-e.suselists@danny.teleologic.net] Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 2:57 PM To: SuSE List Subject: Re: [SLE] reply-to settings

Richard wrote regarding 'RE: [SLE] reply-to settings' on Fri, Aug 06 at 14:13:

Whelp, better get my few cents in too, while the gettin's good.

[...]

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Its the new audience that I would be more concerned with. Compared to all of the other lists out there, it appears a "strange" convention and just reinforces the perception of many that working with Linux and Unix is a trial in frustration and is counterintuitive. Forget that fact, that this statement applies to all software when you are new to it - this is a perception of many.

If everyone wants to have the Reply-to: set on messages to this list, they can always set it themselves. Good mailers do allow the concept of aliases or other methods of setting custom headers based on some criteria. If everyone really wants Reply-to:, they can set it themselves. The list serve admin won't stomp on that, since it's following the good practice of making minimal changes to messages.

Anyway, I doubt that most newbies are determining whether they'll use SuSE or not on how easy it is to use the mailing list. Subscribing alone is a prety big pain if you've just got one question - what's a little more pain in having to pay attention to the reply address? :)

I'd go out on a limb and suggest that lots of the really good help people will get is from the people who've been using this and other similar systems for a long time. That long time typically includes people who were using the net back in/before the early-mid 90's, when the standards for online comms were actually followed by everyone. No HTML email, no replies *before* context, etc. Also, no potentially stomping on people's Reply-to: header if they used that sending to a list. Rewriting would be helpful probably 3/4 or more of the time, but the few times when it blew away a useful reply address just for the sake of convenience is no good. The current position irritates some, but helps others. Changing the position would irritate some and help others. Changing would only shift the irritation around, and more irritation would be shifted onto the old-timers at the benefit of the new users. If someone's gonna have to be irritated either way, which is the case, it'd probably be better for that group to be those who contribute less to the list. It's maybe a little harsh, but the newcomers who don't notice the extra step required to properly reply contribute less than those who do it right - and those newbies are less important to the old-timers who also happen to run the list. Gripe, and you get lumped in with those who "don't matter". Sad, irritating, whatever. That's the way it is, and I don't see *significant* sales dissapearing because of it.

...

Our company is completely committed to SuSE Linux on the server side and investigating it heavily for some development workstation use. Still, most of our desktop use is Microsoft, including Outlook. This may change over time, but hopefully does not disqualify us from participating in the list and pursuing our Linux server direction.

I maintain a network that includes Win2K and OS X workstations (and my Linux desktop). I haven't been kicked off yet - but I haven't been here long, either. ;) You're probably safe.

--Danny, old-timer who sets his own Reply-to: for the benefit of those newbies

Hey! I'm a newbie here, and I figured out the "list etiquette" here :)

* Steve Kratz [08-06-04 15:48]:

Hey! I'm a newbie here, and I figured out the "list etiquette" here :)

Well, there is still *much* room for improvement, 74 lines of quote for a 1 line reply. references: Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com The Etiquette of the SuSE-Linux Mailing-List. http://www.dhaller.de/linux/etiquette-e.html Netiquette Guidelines, rfc 1855 http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html http://www.gweep.ca/~edmonds/usenet/ml-etiquette.html http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html http://herbert.the-little-red-haired-girl.org/en/quoting/ Accepted proper email writing/quoting/etc. http://www.camtp.uni-mb.si/books/jargon/html/email-style.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/M/McQuary-limit.html http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/S/signal-to-noise-ratio.html -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

For those who have had enough of the Reply-to thread and just want to answer questions. A search on Yahoogroups brings up the following: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/suse-linux-english May I suggest that those who choose to reply to a message on the list ,the logical way, join up to the above list. I do not want to continue the 'holy' war that seems to have developed over this thread and just say that different things suit different people. -- The Little Helper ======================================================================== Hylton Conacher - Linux user # 229959 at http://counter.li.org Currently using SuSE 9.0 Professional with KDE 3.1 Licenced Windows user ========================================================================

Use Yahoo???!!!???

I think in this case, the cure is worse than the disease!!! ;-) I'll second that! When I first joined this list I used to think it was a little but of a pain too but one of the list admins (don't remember who) was nice enough to explain with good reasons why it was best. Now after having been on several other lists including a few Yahoo

James Knott wrote: lists, I hope that those who run this list _never_ go the Yahoo way. As for other lists, I see that all the gnome.org lists seem to be the SuSE way. Even a Glade list at glade-users@lists.ximian.com is done the SuSE way. I just subscribed to a Gimp for Windows list at gimpwin-users@yahoogroups.com and have been flooded with junk from that list, items including spam, SPAM warnings saying my message didn't go through and confirmation messages in French. In another Yahoo list I have seen endless loops from non-thinking users who set out of office messages. Please don't ever reduce this list to the Yahoo level Damon Register

* Randall R Schulz [08-08-04 09:13]:

Surely those things are a worthwhile price to pay for not having to exert thought in the selection, configuration and use of your software.

But, wasn't that the entire jist? Wanting to *not* have to make decisions when posting? There is a dos shell built entirely on the premise that computer users should not need know how to operate their computers or programs. The reason we prefer linux <grin>. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

Gary wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] reply-to settings' on Tue, Aug 03 at 10:37:

On Tue, Aug 03, 2004 at 10:17:47AM -0500 or thereabouts, Danny Sauer wrote:

...

David wrote regarding '[SLE] reply-to settings' on Tue, Aug 03 at 04:32:

...

Does everyone on this list have their reply-to set to their own email address?

<snip>

...

Those will set a reply-to, and will put the list address in the to: line when I reply to or compose messages. I've yet to figure out how to get rid of the original To: address, though, so it defaults to sending to the orignal poster and the list). Suggestions for gracefully fixing that are welcome...

Hi Danny...

In your Mutt rc file... you can add a line for all your email lists you belong to like so..

subscribe mutt-users suse another-list

Doh. I should really read that mailing list part of the docs someday. ;) Thanks. --Danny

Patrick wrote regarding 'Re: [SLE] reply-to settings' on Tue, Aug 03 at 10:52:

* Danny Sauer [08-03-04 10:18]:

You are doing a lot that isn't really necessary (IMO). [...] send-hook suse-linux 'my_hdr Reply-to: SuSE List ' ### Reply-to: *list*, is not considered good practice

By default, I don't want personal replies. Seting Reply-to communicates that preference, and is easily overridden in most mailers. Ideally, everyone would know to reply to the list on their own, but as the thread starter illustrated, that's not the case. There's quite a bit of new traffic here, coming from people who temporarily subscribe and then move on. So, I do my part to help those who don't notice their mistake, I keep myself from getting replys that probably should not go to me exclusively, and those who know better can work around it on the rare occasion when they need to. Good practice or not, it realistically meets my goals without disrupting those of others. :) If someone here can make my coworkers stop sending me HTML email, though, I'll happily stop setting Reply-to. ;)

use <g> (group reply) to reply to everyone addressed in the header.

I never even thought to try the group reply function, but it does seem to work. I'll be darned. It'll be nice to take all of that recipient-mangling stuff out of the file and just use a single subscribe line. I still need to set the sender, but the list reply thing works nicely now that I've found some decent docs... --Danny, dumbing down to the lowest denominator out of laziness :)