[opensuse] More fallout on the Novell <> MS Deal on /. and Groklaw

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[opensuse] [resolved?] 10.2 fails...

Kai Ponte

6 Dec 2006 6 Dec '06

05:36

Not to beat a dying horse, but this was too intersting to pass up and not to pass on to you fine folks. Slashdot has an article linking to a groklaw piece on why they thing the MS/Novell deal is very very bad. http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/06/0134211 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061203015212989 Now, whether PJ is just freaking out because of the SCO case or there is clear and present danger to the Linux ecosystem I'm not sure at this moment. Novell - for their part - is having a seminar on the subject. You can sign up here: http://register.novell.com/listings/?id=85 I already did sign up. Okay, now back to your regularly scheduled emailing. -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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M Harris

6 Dec 6 Dec

05:51

On Tuesday 05 December 2006 23:36, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

Now, whether PJ is just freaking out because of the SCO case or there is clear and present danger to the Linux ecosystem I'm not sure at this moment. Yes, and yes.

... again, its a huge trust issue... with folks who have notoriously not be trustworthy... up against Novell's heretofore lousy communication skills. So, the seminar is like a day late and a dollar short... but like Ma used to say, "better late than never"... but like Pa used to say, "better never late". Anyway, Groklaw is kicking Novell's skinny butt in spades... <sigh> -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Pavel Nemec

07:32

Dne Wednesday 06 December 2006 06:36 Kai Ponte napsal(a):

...

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061203015212989

Huh, i read it, but did not find any reasonable point. IMHO just another FUD. Pavel -- Pavel Nemec Software Engineer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: pnemec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel:+420 284 028 981 190 00 Praha 9 fax:+420 296 542 374 Ceska republika http://www.suse.cz

Janne Karhunen

19:06

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 09:32, Pavel Nemec wrote:

...

Huh, i read it, but did not find any reasonable point.

IMHO just another FUD.

Yes, but this means you missed the whole point. The whole point in the deal is really, effectively, FUD. That is what MS paid for. FUD with even a tiny bit of backing is extremely valuable because people are either gullible or unwilling to take risks. It's just that Novell has not realized this yet and is giving MS precisely what it wants. Let me quote PJ: 1. to try to prove that the GPL is not legally binding and so can be violated in order to make some money, honey. 2. Another goal was to cast a legal cloud over Linux, so in the enterprise, PHBs would be afraid to employ it for fear of legal consequences of possibly violating SCO's "IP". 3. And also there was the apparent goal of forcing Linux to cost something Point is really valid. Deal does lot more harm to the community than it does help. -- // Janne -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

7 Dec 7 Dec

02:37

New subject: [opensuse] More fallout on the Novell <> MS Deal on /. and Groklaw blah blah blah

M$ is scared! OO is doing to M$office what IE did to Netscape, Samba is doing the same to Domain services, if Novell builds a successful open directory, there goes AD. M$ is a cornered\trapped dog, it will snarl, bite, bark, claw, and even bite off it's own leg to try and survive. let it die. They already said GPLv2 has not been violated. Linus won't agree to GPLv3 which is a good thing, there won't really be a reason. Novell OWNS Unixware building and maintaining a kernel that can mimic Linus's (with Linus's help) couldn't be much more difficult than maintaining the Netware kernel, and donating the new kernel to the community. Ending all kernel patent wars for ever! The money is in service not proprietary software manufacturing. How long will it take to successfully reverse engineer the m$ multimedia codecs? how long has the community been trying, 8,9 years? samba took 12? OpenSUSE Rules!!!!!!!! THE SINGLE BEST THING NOVELL EVER DID WAS BUY SUSE............. I am a 13 year veteran of believing in Novell I am not going to stop NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ron IS GOING TO BEAT M# AT IT"S OWN GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EMBRACE, IMPROVE AND EXTINGUISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

D Gavrilovic

04:01

New subject: [opensuse] More fallout on the Novell <> MS Deal on /. and Groklaw blah blah blah

On 12/6/06, James Tremblay wrote:

...

OpenSUSE Rules!!!!!!!! THE SINGLE BEST THING NOVELL EVER DID WAS BUY SUSE............. I am a 13 year veteran of believing in Novell I am not going to stop NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ron IS GOING TO BEAT M# AT IT"S OWN GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EMBRACE, IMPROVE AND EXTINGUISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You might want to cut down on the nestlecafe. -- "Develop success from failures. Discouragement and failure are two of the surest stepping stones to success." - Dale Carnegie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte

05:29

New subject: [opensuse] More fallout on the Novell <> MS Deal on /. and Groklaw blah blah blah

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 20:01, D Gavrilovic wrote:

...

On 12/6/06, James Tremblay wrote:

...
OpenSUSE Rules!!!!!!!! THE SINGLE BEST THING NOVELL EVER DID WAS BUY SUSE............. I am a 13 year veteran of believing in Novell I am not going to stop NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ron IS GOING TO BEAT M# AT IT"S OWN GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EMBRACE, IMPROVE AND EXTINGUISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You might want to cut down on the nestlecafe.

Ha! I almost spilled mine on the keyboard! I do hope this is the case. Though I'm holding out until the final jury, I still have much trepedation. I will - however - do my best not to spread any FUD or unfounded rumors. -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

6 Dec 6 Dec

12:35

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

Not to beat a dying horse, but this was too intersting to pass up and not to pass on to you fine folks.

Slashdot has an article linking to a groklaw piece on why they thing the MS/Novell deal is very very bad.

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/06/0134211

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061203015212989

Now, whether PJ is just freaking out because of the SCO case or there is clear and present danger to the Linux ecosystem I'm not sure at this moment.

I don't know all the details either. However, while I greatly respect PJ I suspect this time she's giving the impression that emotion is clouding her judgment, and making it difficult to determine if she is in fact correct. Some of what she has posted on this matter is incorrect. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Graham Anderson

19:10

On Wednesday 06 December 2006 12:35, James Knott wrote:

...

Kai Ponte wrote:

...
Not to beat a dying horse, but this was too intersting to pass up and not to pass on to you fine folks.

Slashdot has an article linking to a groklaw piece on why they thing the MS/Novell deal is very very bad.

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/06/0134211

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061203015212989

Now, whether PJ is just freaking out because of the SCO case or there is clear and present danger to the Linux ecosystem I'm not sure at this moment.

I don't know all the details either. However, while I greatly respect PJ I suspect this time she's giving the impression that emotion is clouding her judgment, and making it difficult to determine if she is in fact correct. Some of what she has posted on this matter is incorrect.

Notwithstanding the very good coverage of SCO Vs IBM/Novell; she really should stick to commenting on matters of law, not matters of technology which she clearly has a piss poor understanding of. Either that or the supposedly impartial Groklaw just let slip some bias after all. Take your pick...

Darryl Gregorash

7 Dec 7 Dec

03:27

On 2006-12-05 23:36, Kai Ponte wrote:

...

Not to beat a dying horse, but this was too intersting to pass up and not to pass on to you fine folks.

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2006/Dec-04.html and http://dev-loki.blogspot.com/2006/12/groklaw-fud-machine.html

...

Slashdot has an article linking to a groklaw piece on why they thing the MS/Novell deal is very very bad.

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/12/06/0134211

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061203015212989

Interesting you should cite these two.. Pascal Bleser (aka guru aka loki) has suggested that Groklaw has now matched slashdot's level -- the gutter :-) I'll kill two birds with one stone. I have no intention of running out to find citations for everything; IIRC, it's all published somewhere on The Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/. Janne Karhunen wrote:

...

It's just that Novell has not realized this yet and is giving MS precisely what it wants. Let me quote PJ:

1. to try to prove that the GPL is not legally binding and so can be violated in order to make some money, honey.

I thought all previous musings from Groklaw were that the GPL *is* legally binding, and that Novell is intentionally violating it. Nice try, then, to change horses and try to assert the opposite.

...

2. Another goal was to cast a legal cloud over Linux, so in the enterprise, PHBs would be afraid to employ it for fear of legal consequences of possibly violating SCO's "IP".

SCO has been hit a mortal blow: Virtually their entire case has been thrown out by the presiding judge, and they have yet to demonstrate a single line of code that supports their claims. Anyone believing that the community of end users is oblivious to these developments is on drugs so cheap that I don't even want any.

...

3. And also there was the apparent goal of forcing Linux to cost something

There is a recent decision by a US federal court (SCOTUS itself??) that there is no legal obligation to charge anything for one's work. This was in response to a claim that a selling cost of zero hindered free trade by attempting to create a monopoly. In short, the court found that US anti-trust legislation does not require one to sell one's product, so the GPL is quite safe on these grounds.

...

Point is really valid. Deal does lot more harm to the community than it does help. Which point is valid? The only valid point I see in all of this is that Groklaw cannot make up its mind about who is doing what, or why.

-- The best way to accelerate a computer running Windows is at 9.81 m/s² -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Janne Karhunen

05:44

On Thursday 07 December 2006 05:27, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

...

...
It's just that Novell has not realized this yet and is giving MS precisely what it wants. Let me quote PJ:

1. to try to prove that the GPL is not legally binding and so can be violated in order to make some money, honey.

I thought all previous musings from Groklaw were that the GPL *is* legally binding, and that Novell is intentionally violating it. Nice try, then, to change horses and try to assert the opposite.

Umm, PJ is still saying GPL is binding. She's just trying to point out Novell does not feel that way.

...

...
2. Another goal was to cast a legal cloud over Linux, so in the enterprise, PHBs would be afraid to employ it for fear of legal consequences of possibly violating SCO's "IP".

SCO has been hit a mortal blow: Virtually their entire case has been thrown out by the presiding judge, and they have yet to demonstrate a single line of code that supports their claims. Anyone believing that the community of end users is oblivious to these developments is on drugs so cheap that I don't even want any.

Yep. So MS is looking for new desperate company to provide any backing for it's FUD. Novell is giving them that, and I don't think this is what Novell intended. However, can't see them that dumb either that they would not have seen what's coming.

...

...
3. And also there was the apparent goal of forcing Linux to cost something

There is a recent decision by a US federal court (SCOTUS itself??) that there is no legal obligation to charge anything for one's work. This was in response to a claim that a selling cost of zero hindered free trade by attempting to create a monopoly. In short, the court found that US anti-trust legislation does not require one to sell one's product, so the GPL is quite safe on these grounds.

You missed the point again. You, as a Novell customer, are paying to MS from now on [for something that does not exist, ie. FUD]. Is that what you wanted? -- // Janne -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carl William Spitzer IV

11 Dec 11 Dec

05:28

New subject: [opensuse] More fallout on the Novell <> MS Deal on /. and Groklaw

On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 07:44 +0200, Janne Karhunen

...

You missed the point again. You, as a Novell customer, are paying to MS from now on [for something that does not exist, ie. FUD]. Is that what you wanted?

If its FUD its a failure and M$ customers dumb enough to buy into that deserve all the virus, worm, trojans that happen. Another point is that when you buy car insurance your also paying for all the irresponsible people in your same classification. There is no way to separate yourself out from that. Its not like the Microsoft refund that you can file when you buy a computer with that OS preinstalled when you are going to load linux. Perhaps we should write Novell and ask for a form for a FUD refund. -- ___ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ | | | | [__ | | | |___ |_|_| ___] | \/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

D Gavrilovic

11:26

On 12/11/06, Carl William Spitzer IV wrote:

...

On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 07:44 +0200, Janne Karhunen

...
You missed the point again. You, as a Novell customer, are paying to MS from now on [for something that does not exist, ie. FUD]. Is that what you wanted?

If its FUD its a failure and M$ customers dumb enough to buy into that deserve all the virus, worm, trojans that happen.

Another point is that when you buy car insurance your also paying for all the irresponsible people in your same classification. There is no way to separate yourself out from that.

Its not like the Microsoft refund that you can file when you buy a computer with that OS preinstalled when you are going to load linux.

Perhaps we should write Novell and ask for a form for a FUD refund.

Actually, there is a story circulating claiming that some sysadmin in the UK(I think!) managed to get a refund from Dell for his unopened copy of XP that came with system. Don't know how true that one is.

...

-- ___ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ | | | | [__ | | | |___ |_|_| ___] | \/

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-- "Develop success from failures. Discouragement and failure are two of the surest stepping stones to success." - Dale Carnegie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bill-Schoolcraft

15:14

At Mon, 11 Dec 2006 it looks like D Gavrilovic composed:

...

Actually, there is a story circulating claiming that some sysadmin in the UK(I think!) managed to get a refund from Dell for his unopened copy of XP that came with system. Don't know how true that one is.

I recall being at the march here in the San Francisco Bay Area (south of SF) for what might have been the very first refund attempt... http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ -- Bill Schoolcraft <*> http://wiliweld.com "Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing." -- Redd Foxx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

12:17

New subject: [opensuse] More fallout on the Novell <> MS Deal on /. and Groklaw

Carl William Spitzer IV wrote:

...

On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 07:44 +0200, Janne Karhunen

...
You missed the point again. You, as a Novell customer, are paying to MS from now on [for something that does not exist, ie. FUD]. Is that what you wanted?

If its FUD its a failure and M$ customers dumb enough to buy into that deserve all the virus, worm, trojans that happen.

Another point is that when you buy car insurance your also paying for all the irresponsible people in your same classification. There is no way to separate yourself out from that.

Its not like the Microsoft refund that you can file when you buy a computer with that OS preinstalled when you are going to load linux.

Perhaps we should write Novell and ask for a form for a FUD refund.

If you don't want to pay it, you only have to download the ISO's. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

16:05

New subject: [opensuse] More fallout on the Novell <> MS Deal on /. and Groklaw

On Dec 11, 06 07:17:20 -0500, James Knott wrote:

...

Carl William Spitzer IV wrote:

...
On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 07:44 +0200, Janne Karhunen

...
You missed the point again. You, as a Novell customer, are paying to MS from now on [for something that does not exist, ie. FUD]. Is that what you wanted?

Not quite.

...

If you don't want to pay it, you only have to download the ISO's.

Or try to do the maths again. A pays B a sum S. B pays A a sum 10 times S. So there remains a net cash flow of 9 times S from B to A. A has many customers C, paying a little sum s to A. So every cash flow effectivly ends up at A. I don't see how C actually feeds B here. cheers, Jw. -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de wide open suse_/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 (tm)__/ (____/ /\ (/) | __________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carl William Spitzer IV

12 Dec 12 Dec

22:33

New subject: [opensuse] More fallout on the Novell <> MS Deal on /. and Groklaw

On Mon, 2006-12-11 at 07:17 -0500, James Knott

...

...
If you don't want to pay it, you only have to download the ISO's.

On dialup which is all I have that would take a decade. Likely Ill borrow someone elses set of DVD. -- ___ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ | | | | [__ | | | |___ |_|_| ___] | \/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (12)

Bill-Schoolcraft
Carl William Spitzer IV
D Gavrilovic
Darryl Gregorash
Graham Anderson
James Knott
James Tremblay
Janne Karhunen
Juergen Weigert
Kai Ponte
M Harris
Pavel Nemec