2010. február 19. 12:41 napon C írta:

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:11, Charles Obler wrote:

...

I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality.

First question.. have you bumped up to KDE4.4? If not, then do that first. If you're using 4.3.1, then you will definitely have issues.

First, openSUSE 11.2 was relased with BUGDE 4.3.1 as official KDE version, so it is quite natural to expect it to work without problems. If it has issues and can not function well, why was it choosen as default? And, why has KDE3, which worked/works nicely, been removed? Why did not they wait until BUGDE4 becomes stable? Second, BUGDE 4.4 is not in the official repository, and is not supported. Better option is to choose KDE 3.5 build repo if one decides to install from a non-supported repo. And it (3.5) works as expected. But in openSUSE 11.2 it still might have some minor issues. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2010. február 21. 19:51 napon C írta:

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 18:39, Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

First,

openSUSE 11.2 was relased with BUGDE 4.3.1 as official KDE version, so it is quite natural to expect it to work without problems. If it has issues and can not function well, why was it choosen as default? And, why has KDE3, which worked/works nicely, been removed? Why did not they wait until BUGDE4 becomes stable?

Second,

BUGDE 4.4 is not in the official repository, and is not supported. Better option is to choose KDE 3.5 build repo if one decides to install from a non-supported repo. And it (3.5) works as expected. But in openSUSE 11.2 it still might have some minor issues.

We get your point Istvan.. you don't like KDE4.

Why should I? I can't set it the way I'd like, I can't use it the way I'd like.

And.. nice circular logic there... you say KDE4.4 is not in an official repo.. (but it actually is) yet you suggest using KDE3.5 Could you, please, give me the link of official KDE 4.4 repo site?

which is definitely not in any official 11.2 repo, and is not a part of 11.2 in any way except through community builds. That is true, but the OP apparently has prolems with KDE 4. I only offered a solution to his problem by suggesting installing KDE3.5

KDE4.4 is a whole lot closer to official in 11.2 than KDE3.5 is. It is true too, unfortunately.

So... you've had your rant... you've spread your FUD. Happy now? FUD: Fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) is a tactic of rhetoric and fallacy used in sales, marketing, public relations,[1][2] politics and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence public perception by disseminating negative and dubious/false information designed to undermine the credibility of their beliefs. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt)

Based on the above could you explain, why my post was FUD? Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:55, Charles Obler wrote:

 The advice and encouragement that others here have generously offered me helps me to keep an open mind regarding 11.2.

Hopefully we can find the missing bits for you :-) If not.. more bug reports are needed.

I posted my original message as a question: I want to hear what others think about 11.2.

I am very happy with it. It works fine. I keep up with the factory developments in KDE4, and that makes a huge (positive) impact on usability... getting the KDE4 fixes early etc. There are still issues... but there are bug reports on all the probs I've encountered. I'm comfortable enough with 11.2 that I put it on my girlfriends laptop as the only OS - using KDE4.4. She's had the usual hiccups with the transition from WinXP to Linux, but overall she's really pleased with it (and she's not a techie type at all).

it's because KDE 3.5 is SO good and solid, that I hate to be forced to part with it.

There is a community effort to provide KDE3.5 for 11.2. It's ultimately a dead end though since it's no longer being developed, and only receiving a minuscule amount of updates from the KDE developer side. See: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3 C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday, 2010-02-19 at 11:55 -0800, Charles Obler wrote:

My original message may have been an over-reaction based on my concern for the future of Linux. When I use and promote Linux, I need to feel that things are getting better, not worse. The advice and encouragement that others here have generously offered me helps me to keep an open mind regarding 11.2.

I find that 11.2 is probably the best release in a long time. I don't have big problems with it, only some minor issues. Maybe the fact that I don't use kde has something to do with that... but you know, kde is not linux. It is just a part of it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkt/uhIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W4ewCfTtZgfOK1yapen8xuVPR73iK3 PzYAmwdm76p2+r1i5a7xL2Zei52lzDMH =oQEa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2010-02-19 at 11:44 -0500, James Knott wrote:

Charles Obler wrote:

...

I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality. It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users. Tell me I'm wrong!

After a bit of experience with 11.1, I reverted to 11.0. From my point of view, KDE 4 is a disaster. I also have no use for a dumbed down desktop. If I wanted one, I could always go to Windows. Perhaps KDE 4 should be called "Linux Vista".

Seems like this thread re-creates itself every month or two, maybe there should be a separate "I hate kde4" mailing list . . . Curious though, what loss of functionality ? I too, recently installed 11.2 and I really like it. KDE 4 uses a bit more resources than I'd like, but then I thought - geez, I've got a tri-core 64bit processor with 8 gigs of ram. Even with KDE4, firefox, Evolution, and a host of other widgets running - the processor load is almost nothing and the consumed ram is less than a gig. Meanwhile, it looks great. Dolphin even seems to be stable (had real dolphin problems in 11.0 - but maybe that was just me). Even better, KDE4.4 from all reports seems like its going to be even more stable and more capable. Now, when folks stop over my office, they often express envy at the way I spin through multiple desktops, they are startled by the waving translucent windows, and often ask "how much it costs" to get a computer like that. Not bad for an OS that is 100% free, and for which most of us, the only contribution is to file a bug report - or bitch about something on a mailing list. let the flames begin, regis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Graham Anderson wrote:

I've not read any _valid_ criticisms of KDE4 for a long, long time. I'm going to start a "Why KDE3 sucks" thread soon.

I have only ONE criticism of KDE4, and I can repeat it here for new readers: ---- Dolphin and Konqueror in KDE 4.0x both fail to show meta data when right-clicking on a document or a picture. In KDE 3.5, the meta data were shown, like this: http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data1.jpg http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data2.jpg http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data3.jpg http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data4.jpg As you can see for yourself, the display of meta data is a very valuable function. A number of people pointed to the KDE 4 versions missing this functionality, and there should have been ample time to bring it back by now. It is highly desirable to have Dolphin and Konqueror display it, so we do not have to start another program to view this information. So, when will this functionality be brought back, or has it already happened? ---- - In every other respect, I have found KDE4 to be as good - and i most cases better - in comparison to KDE3. Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Graham Anderson wrote:

On Friday 19 February 2010 18:46:59 Regis Matejcik wrote:

...

Seems like this thread re-creates itself every month or two, maybe there should be a separate "I hate kde4" mailing list . . .

I've not read any _valid_ criticisms of KDE4 for a long, long time. I'm going to start a "Why KDE3 sucks" thread soon.

You could do that, but you might not find any participants. I'm simply puzzled that so many could have complaints about kde4.x, yet many continue to say "don't use it", "it's OK now", "use another desktop environment", etc. Those complaining are not your average computer bozo; these are seriously computer literate users (by default, a linux user is more competent than the average) and they are continuing to say there are problems w/ the environment and are giving direct feedback about what they'd like to see. Were I receiving this sort of feedback from my customers, you can bet I'd be on the stick so fast trying to accommodate them. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2010-02-19 at 20:52 +0100, C wrote:

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:10, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

competent than the average) and they are continuing to say there are problems w/ the environment and are giving direct feedback about what they'd like to see. Were I receiving this sort of feedback from my customers, you can bet I'd be on the stick so fast trying to accommodate them.

They aren't giving feedback. How many people ranting and raving here on the mailing list actually comment on bug reports on kde.org where the feedback counts? Almost none. Instead they heap abuse on the people who try to help... look at all the flak and crap that Dotan has dealt with... somehow he hasn't given in.

This is so. I think people think that the KDE team have some great financing to to usability studies before the release. That is not the Open Source Model. Release often is the mantra. And admit it: how many would be testing KDE4 if it was not part of a good OS release? SUSE are doing a good job of getting the KDE team's frequent releases into our grubby little hands so we can provide feedback. WE are the usability study! -- You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new. -- Steve Jobs Roger Oberholtzer Ramböll RST/OPQ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 22:20, Charles Obler wrote:

I'm not "ranting and raving", as you say, and I certainly do not wish to "heap abuse on the people who try to help".  Just the opposite: I am profoundly grateful for the help.  I know the people who offer help are making a great sacrifice.

Ooops, that ranting comment wasn't directed at you :-) It was in reference to the past few months of "discussion" on the mailing list whenever KDE4 has been mentioned.

I do not "actually comment on bug reports on kde.org", because I do not feel competent to do so.  I don't want to clutter up the bug reports with amateurish complaints.

Mmmm.. don't discount yourself so quickly. You're a user, and you know how you want your KDE to work. It's exactly those comments that are valuable. The devs aren't looking for code samples in the comments (although that may help them)... simply describing your use case, and how you would expect some aspect of KDE to work is helpful.

Greg Freemyer writes that there HAS BEEN a gradual transition to the new KDE concept.  Well, I think developers and users like me operate on a different time-scale.  From the user's perspective, the transition is SUDDEN: One day I have a system I love, and the next day, a system that seems, af first sight, to be a throwback to Microsoft.

It is sudden if you're transitioning from 10.2 to 11.2... just as the differences were rather jarring if you transitioned from 8.1 to 9.3 and so on. You will always find the changes huge when you're making a significant leap like that. openSUSE 10.2 (the release you stated you migrated from) was released in the first week of December 2006... that was just over 3 years ago... that is a very very very long time in Linux development timescales.

I don't understand why there is such a rush to phase out things that work perfectly well.  Isn't maintaining support for obsolescent equipment one of the hallmarks of Linux?  Well, how about maintaining support for obsolescent users, as well?!  :)

Limited resources. There is a fixed and very small number of core developers. they either maintain the old code and there are no advances... or they focus on new code. They chose to work on the new code. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Charles Obler wrote:

I do not "actually comment on bug reports on kde.org", because I do not feel competent to do so. I don't want to clutter up the bug reports with amateurish complaints. Because I am NOT a professional, I do not feel qualified to participate in Linux, except in entry-level forums like this.

I'm not complaining, so much as I'm expressing disappointment. I'm writing as someone who loves Linux, someone who would not dream of using a Microsoft product. I hate to see features that I have come to know and love disappear. I don't want to see Linux dumbed-down to the Microsoft level. I like having a CHOICE. Why is that so hard to understand?

What is hard to understand is...why do people that haven't participated in open betas or contribute via bug reports (for fear of making fools of themselves?) feel they now have the authority (for lack of a better word) to critique a body of work they had no involvement.

Greg Freemyer writes that there HAS BEEN a gradual transition to the new KDE concept. Well, I think developers and users like me operate on a different time-scale. From the user's perspective, the transition is SUDDEN: One day I have a system I love, and the next day, a system that seems, af first sight, to be a throwback to Microsoft.

KDE 4 has been under development for some time before it was unleashed on the general populace. Some would say that until 4.3 it wasn't ready for prime time and KDE 4 should not have been the default KDE until 4.3 was done. I can't comment on that since I didn't start to use KDE 4 until 4.3 was released. But, I can comment on my switch from KDE 3 to KDE 4. First, I don't operate in a vacuum. I knew KDE 4 was coming, and I was aware that it was significantly different than KDE 3. As such I personally didn't expect KDE 4.X to be the same as KDE 3.X. Otherwise wouldn't it have been called KDE 3.X+1? So, since I retain my home directory between upgrades and didn't trust nor did I want some process to try to shift my old settings to the new settings I logged in via ssh and moved aside all things KDE before logging in under KDE 4. Then I went about the business of setting thing up the way I like under the KDE 4 way. Yes, it took me a fair bit of time. But, I tried to treat the exercise as a learning curve. FWIW, I could not get KDE 4.X to work exactly as I want it to. Then again, I could not get 3.X to work exactly as I wanted to, nor could I get GNOME X.X, or xfce .... There were a few things that I thought I lost in moving to KDE 4, but when I asked I found there was just a different way to do it. In fact, one thing changed from 4.3 to 4.4.

I don't understand why there is such a rush to phase out things that work perfectly well. Isn't maintaining support for obsolescent equipment one of the hallmarks of Linux? Well, how about maintaining support for obsolescent users, as well?! :)

AFAIK, KDE 3.5 is still available in 11.2 and you are welcome to use it. I also saw that some group has formed a project to keep 3.5 available unofficially and longer term. (It may have been on a fedora list however). But, please note, if you decide to remain with 3.5 don't expect there to be much in the way of changes/upgrades as in a 3.6 release. And, don't expect KDE 4 to cease progressing/evolving. The KDE development world has limited resources and there will come a time when those supporting 3.5 will dwindle and probably cease to support it. At that time your transition to KDE 4.X or KDE 5.X will likely be even more traumatic. -- 葛斯克 愛德華 / 台北市八德路四段 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 20 February 2010 23:17:32 Larry Stotler wrote:

Just my not so honest opinion.

Perhaps on this self admission, and after admitting in numerous posts that you are not willing to learn about KDE4; you should stop trolling/whining on every thread with the slightest KDE4 mention. -- “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.” - Christopher Hitchens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 15:41, Larry Stotler wrote:

To begin, I rarely post on these lists anymore mainly because of attitudes like yours that state that I shouldn't have my own opinion and that I shouldn't share it since no one here seems to care.

There is a BIG difference between having differing opinions and simply moaning about "it's different and that's scary" like some people have been doing. Calling it BUGDE is not helping.. it's just being stupid and childish. Moaning and wailing about some missing feature until the rest of us are dead tired of it all while the moaner pruposely ignores the kde.org bug that is open on the missing feature, and ignoring all progress towards restoring that feature, is not having a differing opinion... it's just stirring the proverbial pot and trying to drum up as much trouble as possible. You are welcome to have your own opinon. You're welcome to use KDE3... that's exactly why there is a community sponsored KDE3 build for openSUSE11.2

came out.  KDE4 is a completely different philosophy and design than any KDE preceding it, and needless to say many of us aren't happy with the change.

Many? Some? How do you quantify that? So far, everyone I know personally that's tried KDE4 likes it. A few people have jumped from Windows to Linux because of KDE4. So it's not all bad. That's not to say it doesn't have issues, but... that's what the bug reports are for, and hey look.. features are being added back and/or fixed based on bug reports.

of that freedom is that we have a right to disagree with the direction the distro and it's underlying code has taken.  I've make several requests so that those of us who want an easy way to turn off the new bling have one, like porting KPersonalizer over.  I don't code, so I can't do it.  I never heard if anything was done along those lines.

New bling (transparencies, rotating desktops etc) is easy to turn off... there's a default keyboard shortcut... Shift+Alt+F12.. or you can click on the check box in in the desktop settings and it's off.

I have just as much right to offer advice of my preferred solution of using 11.0/KDE3.5

Yup... And I also point people at the KDE3 solution when that is what they want. You're more than welcome to do that. The snarky comments from others earlier in this thread are NOT doing that.

So far I have seen ZERO compelling reasons to use KDE4.

As I see ZERO compelling reasons to use Gnome, or Windowmaker... but you don't see the KDE users (usually anyway) calling down hatred and trolling in posts that are about Gnome do you? Do you see anyone calling XFCE, BUGFCE? or some other stupid name? If someone does, it's rare.

 The KDE team may realize how much stuff they removed was actually used at some point.  Till then, well, we shall have to agree to disagree.

And they do realise it.... check the hundreds of feature bugs that have been fixed or are targeted to be fixed. It's rather nice to see how many (missing) feature requests have been picked up by the KDE devs. Yah they could have managed the rollout of KDE4 better... but it's done, and it's being cleaned up. Anyway, my point is... productive banter is good... mindless wailing about stuff that's missing or not right and purposely ignoring the progress/accepted/planned features in the bug reports is not good, and frankly, it's tiresome. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2010/02/22 11:32 PM, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 10:03 AM, C wrote:

...

There is a BIG difference between having differing opinions and simply moaning about "it's different and that's scary" like some people have been doing. Calling it BUGDE is not helping.. it's just being stupid and childish. Moaning and wailing about some missing feature until the rest of us are dead tired of it all while the moaner pruposely ignores the kde.org bug that is open on the missing feature, and ignoring all progress towards restoring that feature, is not having a differing opinion... it's just stirring the proverbial pot and trying to drum up as much trouble as possible.

To many I have talked with, "where to begin?" is the biggest problem. Quite honestly, they should have called it something else. KDE4 when released was a huge change from KDE3, moreso than any previous release out there. Many who were used to KDE3 were immediately turned off by the complete change of direction, myself included.

I just get the feeling that if KDE3 was KDE4 and people were moved to KDE4 (which is would be KDE3) we'd be having a very similar conversation. Basically, people would be used to what they were using and the change would be big...and a certain percentage would not like it and/or not be able to deal with it. A certain percentage would be shouting...."where are my activities" and "what happened to my widgets". All I know is KDE4 is here. Folks can either move to it and contribute to improving it. Or, they can remain on KDE3.5 at present. But, I don't think 3.5 will be progressing. And, eventually those supporting 3.5 will likely turn their attention elsewhere. In the meantime KDE4 will not stagnate. One wonders if the learning curve will be any less steep when the day comes where 3.5 is no longer viable.

...

Many? Some? How do you quantify that? So far, everyone I know personally that's tried KDE4 likes it. A few people have jumped from Windows to Linux because of KDE4. So it's not all bad. That's not to say it doesn't have issues, but... that's what the bug reports are for, and hey look.. features are being added back and/or fixed based on bug reports.

I know some that like it and some that don't. I don't, but I would LIKE to see it fixed. I remember many comments about the KDE devs telling users to get over it and that this was the new way. Now, they are trying to fix things and re-implement features they tried to tell us we didn't need. I have yet to understand why I don't need icons on my desktop. But that is what they told us.

...

New bling (transparencies, rotating desktops etc) is easy to turn off... there's a default keyboard shortcut... Shift+Alt+F12.. or you can click on the check box in in the desktop settings and it's off.

So, is that a documented feature that shows up when you install first install KDE4? I never heard about it till now. That's what I liked about KPersonalizer. Come up on first login. A nice easy way to turn off unwanted features. It was added due to older hardware, but many of us turned off the stuff even when we had the hardware to run it.

...

Yup... And I also point people at the KDE3 solution when that is what they want. You're more than welcome to do that. The snarky comments from others earlier in this thread are NOT doing that.

Hmmm, I was singled out by being told this(not by you):

"you should stop trolling/whining on every thread with the slightest KDE4 mention"

Don't exactly see how I was doing other than expressing my FRUSTRATION with making KDE4 work properly.

...

As I see ZERO compelling reasons to use Gnome, or Windowmaker... but you don't see the KDE users (usually anyway) calling down hatred and trolling in posts that are about Gnome do you? Do you see anyone calling XFCE, BUGFCE? or some other stupid name? If someone does, it's rare.

Haven't really seen a Gnome vs KDE flame for a long time. However, since KDE4 is basically a new starting point, it should have been called something else. Oh well.

...

And they do realise it.... check the hundreds of feature bugs that have been fixed or are targeted to be fixed. It's rather nice to see how many (missing) feature requests have been picked up by the KDE devs. Yah they could have managed the rollout of KDE4 better... but it's done, and it's being cleaned up.

That's an understatement. It was a disaster. openSUSE did a better job than Fedora to say the least. We were at least given the option for KDE3 in 11.0 & 11.1(although there was discussion about removing KDE3 in 11.1).

...

Anyway, my point is... productive banter is good... mindless wailing about stuff that's missing or not right and purposely ignoring the progress/accepted/planned features in the bug reports is not good, and frankly, it's tiresome.

What's tiresome is having to sit down and create a lengthly list of what's missing. I would have expected the KDE devs to know WHAT they were removing. While I applaud Dotan and others who have done so, it's way beyond what I personally am willing to deal with due to lack of time and everything else. I would have preferred spending my time answering questions about openSUSE than deal with the whole KDE3/KDE4 thing.

-- You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish. You can tune a filesystem, but you can't tuna fish. -- from the tunefs(8) man page -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 16:32, Larry Stotler wrote:

 KDE4 when released was a huge change from KDE3, moreso than any previous release out there. .

It definitely is, on many levels, a completely new way of looking at a desktop.

...

New bling (transparencies, rotating desktops etc) is easy to turn off... there's a default keyboard shortcut... Shift+Alt+F12.. or you can click on the check box in in the desktop settings and it's off.

So, is that a documented feature that shows up when you install first install KDE4?  I never heard about it till now.

I don't know. I didn't have to look for it in the documentation. It's probably there... did you look? It wasn't necessary for me to dig through soem help file... the toggle for the bling was in a logical place in the setup and configuration window - the first place I go on any window manager on an OS I use... be it Windows, OSX, or some Linux/Unix window manager. I learned about the keyboard shortcut by looking at the Keyboard shortcuts in the configuration window...

Hmmm, I was singled out by being told this(not by you):

"you should stop trolling/whining on every thread with the slightest KDE4 mention"

Don't exactly see how I was doing other than expressing my FRUSTRATION with making KDE4 work properly.

That links back into the whole problem of someone asking about KDE4 features etc, and then getting repsonse that KDE is the world's worst thing ever, and that Linux will fail because of it or some such other silliness. So when someone pops up and starts grousing (out of frustration) about KDE, those of us trying to help and make it work etc kind of go.. "not again"... especially when it's the same 5 or 6 people who come in and do their best to sabotage the efforts to help. Sometimes it hard to weed out the trolls from the legit frustration... and soemtimes.. the frustration doesn't make any sense.. it feels like (in some cases) the person expressing their "frustration" didn't even try. They just saw soemthing different and freaked out... like the settings... it's all (almost) all in the Desktop Settings. it's not hiddena way anywhere... a few clicks and you'd (generally speaking, bot you specifically) probably discover what you're looking for... but so many just don't bother.

That's an understatement.  It was a disaster.  openSUSE did a better job than Fedora to say the least.  We were at least given the option for KDE3 in 11.0 & 11.1(although there was discussion about removing

Yup, and I didn't start using KDE4 full time until the end of the 11.1 release cycle. I also stuck with KDE3.5 unti KDE4 was working well enough (ie with openSUSE 11.2) that it didn't do stupid things to my desktop... something that happened a lot in 4.0 and 4.1.

What's tiresome is having to sit down and create a lengthly list of what's missing.  I would have expected the KDE devs to know WHAT they were removing.  While I applaud Dotan and others who have done so, it's way beyond what I personally am willing to deal with due to lack of time and everything else

True, but others are actually taking up that cause and doing the collecting and bug reporting for you/us. As it stands KDE3.5 is still available, but... it is a dead end so to speak. It will live for as long as there is a community big enough to push it through the build service.. but at some point that will stop working (and no longer be a viable window manager) as the rest of the community moves on. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, G T Smith wrote:

From: G T Smith Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

To many I have talked with, "where to begin?" is the biggest problem. Quite honestly, they should have called it something else.

I would strongly agree with this sentiment. If you invent a pneumatic drill, but call it a shovel, you are bound to get people buying into the re-invented shovel to do things which you usually use a shovel for and then becoming a little bit upset when it does not or cannot do the things one expects a shovel to do.

The KDE4 project team seem to have got their act more together, but there are clearly lessons on how not to launch and market a new direction in a software project to be learned by others, as a result of the initial project delivery problems.

I've installed KDE 4.4, and things still aren't entirely right. I'm beginning to fear that this penumatic drill will NEVER be any good for shoveling snow. The main problem is that the simple snow shovel has been taken off the market, and we're told that attempts to maintain snow shovels are a dead end: We have no choice but to use this pneumatic drill. Much of the software associated with 3.5 seems to have disappeared along with the shovel: Where is KOffice? Kuickview? Freecell?

================================================ I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone.

Bjarne Stroustrup ================================================

I think the computer has just taken a Great Leap Forwards: Now I no longer know how to use KDE. Still, I'm not complaining. Since the software is free, we have no right to expect anything. I'm just wondering where we are headed. Will we ever see that simple shovel again? Let's hope that KDE IS fixable. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2010/02/24 15:06 (GMT-0500) Patrick Shanahan composed:

Why would a pneumatic drill be of *any* value when *shoveling* snow?

No shovels, snow is *not* involved!

KDE3 ~= trusty shovel KDE4 ~= pneumatic drill substituted for shovel by openSUSE/Kubuntu/Mandriva/Fedora/etc snow ~= Linux apps that require some WM/DTE -- "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 15:54 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Felix Miata [02-24-10 15:49]:

...

On 2010/02/24 15:06 (GMT-0500) Patrick Shanahan composed:

...

Why would a pneumatic drill be of *any* value when *shoveling* snow?

...

No shovels, snow is *not* involved!

KDE3 ~= trusty shovel KDE4 ~= pneumatic drill substituted for shovel by openSUSE/Kubuntu/Mandriva/Fedora/etc snow ~= Linux apps that require some WM/DTE

Your ?logic? makes little sense, but probably matches your helpful efforts in this instance.

The only thing he said wrong was bothering to explain such an obvious and simple analogy to anyone so either dimwitted or plain recalcitrant as to need it explained. Are you sure you should be playing with complicated things like computers? If this little thing escapes you, how do you manage to tie your shoes in the morning? Oh? You are not an idiot and you understood him perfectly? Oh ok. Then other than lying, what exactly was your goal? What were your "helpful efforts" in this post? In case I used too many big words, yes, this was an insult, and a challenge to either wake up or shut up. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

snow ~= Linux apps that require some WM/DTE

snow : Linux applications with 21st century features like working cut-n-paste, accessibility, object embedding, dynamic data linking, managed configuration, etc... AKA features any normal user would absolutely demand of every application. Also from a developers side, apparently "snow" means: I don't have to build some @&^$@&*&$ widget to send mail (it can be expected that that is provided), I can request a URL be displayed in the user's preferred browser (it can be expected that that is provided), I can access networked file-systems, there will be a mechanism for managing access to resources requiring authentication, etc... You know, things that any real-world developer would demand that the target platform provide. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Charles Obler said the following on 02/24/2010 01:52 PM:

Much of the software associated with 3.5 seems to have disappeared along with the shovel: Where is KOffice? Kuickview? Freecell?

While KDE _should_ have changed name, some things _have_ changed name. "Solitaire's the only game in town", like the song says, and all the solitaire games have been rolled into one; have patience, Charles, - KPatience - /usr/bin/kpat - LOTS of patience games, not just Freecell. Koffice? Its there. # rpm -q -a | grep -i office koffice2-kchart-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-kthesaurus-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-l10n-en_GB-doc-2.1.1-2.1 koffice2-kplato-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-kspread-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-krita-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-l10n-en_GB-2.1.1-2.1 koffice2-kword-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-karbon-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-kpresenter-2.1.1-6.1 # rpm -q -a | grep -i view libgtkimageview0-1.6.1-1.83 gwenview-4.4.0-3.1 Of course now you are going to bitch that gwenview isn't exactly like kwickview, and what's more its name doesn't begin with a 'K' so how could you have known about it. You could have found all these yourself, Charles. You could have gone into YAST -> Software Management and selected Filter -> Repositories, then the KDE repositories. Heck, browsing those you find some interesting stuff! -- One supplier of software for bank dealing rooms takes the view that anyone who pirates its code is welcome, as using it without skilled technical support would be a fast way for a bank to lose millions. -- Ross Anderson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, Anton Aylward wrote:

While KDE _should_ have changed name, some things _have_ changed name.

"Solitaire's the only game in town", like the song says, and all the solitaire games have been rolled into one; have patience, Charles, -

KPatience - /usr/bin/kpat - LOTS of patience games, not just Freecell.

Koffice?  Its there.

# rpm -q -a | grep -i office koffice2-kchart-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-kthesaurus-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-l10n-en_GB-doc-2.1.1-2.1 koffice2-kplato-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-kspread-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-krita-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-l10n-en_GB-2.1.1-2.1 koffice2-kword-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-karbon-2.1.1-6.1 koffice2-kpresenter-2.1.1-6.1

# rpm -q -a | grep -i view libgtkimageview0-1.6.1-1.83 gwenview-4.4.0-3.1

Of course now you are going to bitch that gwenview isn't exactly like kwickview, and what's more its name doesn't begin with a 'K' so how could you have known about it.

You could have found all these yourself, Charles. You could have gone into YAST -> Software Management and selected Filter -> Repositories, then the KDE repositories.

Heck, browsing those you find some interesting stuff!

Going into YaST --> Software Management is exactly what I DID do. I did a search for freecell: "No results". Then, taking your earlier advice, I redid the search three times. Same "No results" -- what a surprise! Now I realize my mistake: I forgot to include "Descriptions" in the search. Stupid mistake! -- yes. Indicates a lack of patience -- I agree with you here. How I managed to miss koffice is even harder to explain. I went through the KDE list line by line, and still, somehow, missed it. Once again, I'm not "bitching" or complaining. I'm simply trying to rebuild the cozy servicable system I had under 3.5, and reporting on my experience. I'm not expecting help, but I appreciate help when it is kindly offered. Thank you for directing me to the above programs. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

From: Anton Aylward

Charles Obler said the following on 02/24/2010 04:51 PM:

...

How I managed to miss koffice is even harder to explain. I went through the KDE list line by line, and still, somehow, missed it.

Dunno how to explain that. You must be as fallible as I am.

...

Once again, I'm not "bitching" or complaining. I'm simply trying to rebuild the cozy servicable system I had under 3.5, and reporting on my experience. I'm not expecting help, but I appreciate help when it is kindly offered. Thank you for directing me to the above programs.

I had problems with KDE4.0 :-/

I'm wondering if your settings imported badly or something or something. along the way I completely wiped out everything to do with KDE3. Maybe that helps.

Try this. Create a brand new account, one that _never_ had anything to do with KDE3. Reboot etc, log in to the new account. Its going to have the default settings, which obviously are not what you want to end up with, but we now have a clean baseline to work from.

Write down every adjustment you make to this new account's config, and do it in terms of the new account, so if it says "Activity" or "applets" or "widgets" or "pager" or "System Tray" or "Task manager" or "Application Launcher" or "panel", use the KDE4 terminology, not what you think it was under KDE3.

If its an icon you'll find it in /usr/share/icons :-) If its not there then its not an icon, is it?

If you want, I'll work with you, step by step, configuring things. You may want to set up some mechanism for taking backup snapshots (and being able to restore them) of the ~/.kde4/ for this account.

Perhaps the first thing to do is take a snapshot of the new screen so as to be able to point at things :-) ksnapshot or kgrab - did you know about that one?

I confess, I'm feeling a lot better about KDE 4, now that my configuration problems have been addressed, and now that I have found freecell! :) I'll do as you suggest, if it's necessary, but this is not the right time. Taxes are coming due -- maybe that explains why I'm distracted. I appreciate all that Linux has given me, and for years now, I've wanted find a way to give back to the community. The main problem is that I'm likely to make things worse instead of better. As I wrote in the OpenSuSE survey, I need guidance -- someone telling me what needs to be done and then reviewing my work. I used to know how to program in C++ and Java. I do bash and javascript and Python. I can write documentation. Just point me in the right direction. Thank you for your help. I guess I should even thank you for the abuse, since it is well-deserved! :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On February 24, 2010 10:52:40 am Charles Obler wrote:

Much of the software associated with 3.5 seems to have disappeared along with the shovel: Where is KOffice? Kuickview? Freecell?

KOffice is still in my repos. So is pysolifc which has free cell in it. -- Robert Smits Email bob@rsmits.ca -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

----- Original Message ---- From: Larry Stotler To: opensuse@opensuse.org Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 9:41:14 AM Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? I have just as much right to offer advice of my preferred solution of using 11.0/KDE3.5 as you do to suggest ways to help make KDE4 more bearable. So far I have seen ZERO compelling reasons to use KDE4. So long as that is the case, I will recommend using KDE3 or something else. That may change. The KDE team may realize how much stuff they removed was actually used at some point. ----- Reply ----- Well, at least the KDE developers are learning how much their efforts PRIOR to KDE 4 were appreciated! There is something about this that doesn't make sense. I'd like to know exactly who it was who decided that we needed "A Whole New Concept" -- that something we didn't ask for or want would somehow "Be Good For Us". And now that this "New Concept" has been forced on us, we're told that we should "Just Forget" our desire to stay with the tried and true system that served us so well. If Linux can have two major DE's and several minor ones, why CAN'T it have three? I'm told that the resources aren't there. But the resources were there to give us something we DIDN'T want or ask for! We were not given a choice -- that is the real problem here. I'm trying hard to like KDE 4.3.1, and I have to admit that it's not all bad, and the shortcomings are probably fixable, over time. In the meantime, what's wrong with continuing to identify the things we liked about 3.5? Like: : the ability to align desktop icons with a single command : the icons displayed on the taskbar : short-cut key access to the menu bar in konsole I'm told that 4.3 has a "sort" command that arranges the desktop icons, but I can't find it anywhere. On the taskbar, instead of icons identifying the active applications, I have blank grey boxes. I DID find that I can use the mount command to make USB memory accessible. And I finally got ethernet access to the Internet to work! Woohoo! Next to that, all the rest is minor. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Can't we let this incessant thread die now? Please. I having to setup new filters every 2 or 3 months to rid my inbox of these insane topics that go on forever and ever in circles. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

From: Michael S. Dunsavage Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? To: opensuse@opensuse.org Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 7:58 AM Can't we let this incessant thread die now? Please. I having to setup new filters every 2 or 3 months to rid my inbox of these insane topics that go on forever and ever in circles.

I agree -- and I'm the person responsible for this ill-advised thread. While we share impressions about KDE 4, serious problems are going ignored. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Anton Aylward wrote:

From: Anton Aylward Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? To: opensuse@opensuse.org Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 8:21 AM Charles Obler said the following on 02/23/2010 03:25 AM:

...

: the ability to align desktop icons with a > > single command

Do you know that zen poem that ends with saying since there isn't a mirror where can the motes of dust alight?

Its like that.  There aren't icons to alight' > on the desktop so they can't be aligned.

"icons on the desktop" are not a KDE4 concept.

What you'd doing is akin to trying to get a Ford Mustang to run on hay and oats because your highly bred mustang that you raised from > a foal always ate that.

Just cos some letters of the name are the same doesn't mean its the same thing.

Wow, what a concept! If I have no "icons" and no "desktop", then my problem must be solved already! Unfortunately, a new problem has arisen: I have no way to align the widgets on my dashboard! Actually, it is an improvement: I never was happy with the term "icons", because the term has religious significance that I do not wish to devalue. Now, with KDE 4, I can purge that word from my vocabulary.

...

: the icons displayed on the taskbar

Like how?  Like what?

As I've said, I created a sidebar and as David Rankin suggested put the 'quicklaunch' applet in it.  I put all my 'icons' there.

David illustrated this in his post back in 10/22/2009:

http://www.3111skyline.com/download/dt/kde4/quicklaunch/quicklaunch.jpg

You can put the 'quicklaunch' applet wherever you like, on your bottom bar, a hiding sidebar as I do or, since its an applet, on the 'desktop'.

Its a LOT more flexible and powerful than what you had with KDE3.5

You can put that applet in the bottom taskbar if you want.  I started with that, but its a much better idea to put it  on the side.

Thanks! I will explore this. Unfortunately, when I try to get more information -- from the System Settings Handbook, for example -- I am told that KDEInit could not launch 'susehelp'.: Could not find 'susehelp' executable This may be a result of my incomplete installation. The installer failed to build the little ifcfg-eth0-id in /etc/sysconfig/ network, and, as a result, had no access to the internet repositories where susehelp no doubt resides. I got internet access only yesterday, and now I am trying to figure out how to complete the installation. These real problems are going unaddressed, because we are all having too much fun addressing KDE4 shortcomings.

...

: short-cut key access to the menu bar in konsole

As far as I can see you can define key maping in KDE4, though I use the defaults quite happily.

This was answered recently.

What are you trying to achieve - be specific?

Yes, we all now use the defaults quite happily. We have learned not to question the wisdom of the Party. And now I find another problem: KDE 4 does not seem to support the pasting of highlighted text! E.g., I use less to look at a text file, then I use the mouse to highlight text I want to copy, then I go to an input box on KDE and press both mouse buttons, and voila! -- nothing. Of course, there is a circumvention: I can open the original file with gvim and use the other kind of copy. Or, even better, I can simply retype the text I want to quote, and thus improve my typing skills. Yes, the Party is wise indeed, and we are Quite Happy with all of the Progress we are making. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 02/23/2010 12:32 PM, C pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 18:20, Charles Obler wrote:

...

Unfortunately, when I try to get more information -- from the System Settings Handbook, for example -- I am told that

KDEInit could not launch 'susehelp'.: Could not find 'susehelp' executable

This may be a result of my incomplete installation. The installer failed to build the little ifcfg-eth0-id in /etc/sysconfig/ network, and, as a result, had no access to the internet repositories where susehelp no doubt resides.

So.. let me see if I understand here.... you've got a *broken*, incomplete install. You have not upgraded to KDE 4.4 or at least 4.3.5... and you're continuing to fight a broken install?... and you're having major issues... which all could very likely be linked back to a failed broken install? Why in the world are you continuing on this path? If the install failed... logic dictates that you would re-install.

C.

Bla Bla Bla. Why don't we just shoot Charles and put him out of his misery instead of helping him fix his broken install!! ************************* Charles, Make sure you have the proper repos setup for 11.2 and then in a konsole, as root, do the following: zypper ref zypper dup (answer yes to this) This should finish getting your system to a stable state. Once you have finished this. I can help you add a repo for KDE4.4 so you can have all of the latest fixes for KDE4 and start to get accustomed to the new way of calling things and making them work. It's a slow process but one you must endure to continue using KDE. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

Charles,

Make sure you have the proper repos setup for 11.2 and then in a konsole, as root, do the following:

zypper ref zypper dup (answer yes to this)

This should finish getting your system to a stable state. Once you have finished this. I can help you add a repo for KDE4.4 so you can have all of the latest fixes for KDE4 and start to get accustomed to the new way of calling things and making them work. It's a slow process but one you must endure to continue using KDE.

-- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998

Thank you for the help! That went beautifully. I now have susehelp, and a lot of other wonderful software. Now I'm ready for KDE 4.4, or even 4.5 if that is available. Proceeding on my own, I would have put the installation disk back in and selected "update". But I wasn't sure exactly what that would do, so I posted the question. Thanks again for helping. Is zypper the product that used to tie up the system? I remember being forced to disable a task with a similar name, along with beagle, two years ago, when I installed 10.2. I don't see either running now, and my system is running just fine. Any way I can change the title of this thread, without violating etiquette?! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 02/23/2010 06:28 PM, Charles Obler pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Charles,

Make sure you have the proper repos setup for 11.2 and then in a konsole, as root, do the following:

zypper ref zypper dup (answer yes to this)

This should finish getting your system to a stable state. Once you have finished this. I can help you add a repo for KDE4.4 so you can have all of the latest fixes for KDE4 and start to get accustomed to the new way of calling things and making them work. It's a slow process but one you must endure to continue using KDE.

-- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998

Thank you for the help! That went beautifully. I now have susehelp, and a lot of other wonderful software. Now I'm ready for KDE 4.4, or even 4.5 if that is available.

The easiest way if you are comfortable at the command line is create a file under /etc/zypp/repos.d/KDE_4.4_Factory_openSUSE_11.2.repo (or what ever you want to call it) and add the following: [repo_KDE_4.4_Factory.2] name=repo KDE 4.4 Factory openSUSE_11.2 enabled=1 autorefresh=1 baseurl=http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE4:/Factory:/Desktop/openSU... path=/ type=rpm-md priority=75 keeppackages=0 Then another zypper ref zypper dup and you should be at KDE4.4.

Proceeding on my own, I would have put the installation disk back in and selected "update". But I wasn't sure exactly what that would do, so I posted the question. Thanks again for helping.

Is zypper the product that used to tie up the system? I remember being forced to disable a task with a similar name, along with beagle, two years ago, when I installed 10.2. I don't see either running now, and my system is running just fine.

No, zypper is the result of fixing that problem and works quite well. It's all I use anymore for updates and patches.

Any way I can change the title of this thread, without violating etiquette?!

All ready done. Change it to what you feel covers the problem. Hope this helps further. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Charles Obler said the following on 02/24/2010 02:58 PM:

* mouse: Still do not have the ability to paste highlighted text. And I've found no place where I can configure the two-button gesture.

Presumably you've been though YAST -> hardware -> Mouse? Done that? OK, NEXT: now find a blank part of the desktop and right-click. Bottom of the menu is "Desktop Activity Settings". If all fails, try "Alt-D, alt-S" The panel on the left has "mouse settings". Click on that. The rest should be obvious. -- You can not inspect quality into the product; it is already there. - W. Edwards Deming -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Charles Obler said the following on 02/24/2010 05:11 PM:

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

From: Anton Aylward Subject: Re: [opensuse] System failed to finish install - 11.2 To: opensuse@opensuse.org Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 3:20 PM Charles Obler said the following on 02/24/2010 02:58 PM:

...

* mouse: Still do not have the ability to paste highlighted text. And I've found no place where I can configure the two-button gesture.

Presumably you've been though YAST -> hardware -> Mouse? Done that?

OK, NEXT: now find a blank part of the desktop and right-click. Bottom of the menu is "Desktop Activity Settings".

If all fails, try "Alt-D, alt-S"

The panel on the left has "mouse settings". Click on that. The rest should be obvious.

Thanks for the help. The setting in YaST was wrong. Problem solved.

I tried the "Desktop Activity Settings" earlier, pressed "Add action", and then pressed the two buttons together. I got an "trigger is already assigned to another action" message. I still get the same message, but at least now, the mouse DOES paste.

The DAS dialogue HAS NO two-button option. That is what led me to conclude, mistakenly, that the gesture is no longer supported. I'm happy to find that I was wrong.

There may be something in the X configuration - however that's done in however the version of X you have running - that says "emulate 3 button mouse". In one sense the Microsoft AD approach does mean you don't have to hunt. Conversely its so godamn complicated and obscure. At least with the *NIX approach everything is compartmentalized and if you zap a config file you're limited in what can go wrong. The problem with the Titanic was at those supposedly watertight compartments weren't watertight all the way to the top! -- The trouble with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

--- On Wed, 2/24/10, Anton Aylward wrote:

From: Anton Aylward Subject: Re: [opensuse] System failed to finish install - 11.2

Charles Obler said the following on

...

* konsole menubar shortcut: I still miss the ability to access the menubar with a shortcut key.  There is an entry in the configuration for SHOWING the bar -- in    fact there are two entries -- but there is no entry for accessing it.

Ya bitching again!

I've just been though the "configure short cuts" for konsole for KDE4.4 and matched up all the items in the various pull-downs on the menu bar with possible setting.

So it takes you directly to the operation instead of hanging round on the menu bar and you're complaining?

No, I can't accept this as a bug.

So now I have to remember five or ten different keystrokes, when before I had to remember only one? Is that your notion of progress? :) The fact that there are TWO identical "show menu bar" configuration options and ZERO "access menu bar" options suggests to me that this MAY be a bug -- perhaps one of the two "show menu options" should actually be the missing "access" option. Again, I'm not bitching or complaining. I can find ways to work around any limitations you offer me. I can use the mouse to open the "File" menu (formerly the "Sessions" menu), or I can assign a separate keystroke for each kind of session (each "profile"), and then hope that I remember the right keystroke. But I will continue to miss the 3.5 option, where I could SEE what I was actually selecting and where a single keystroke provided the access I needed. No, I'm not bitching and I'm not complaining. I am simply reporting my experience to you. Do whatever you wish with it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Charles Obler wrote:

Is zypper the product that used to tie up the system?  I remember being forced to disable a task with a similar name, along with beagle, two years ago, when I installed 10.2.  I don't see either running now, and my system is running just fine.

Zypper is what came of the broken addition of the Rug and ZMD(Zenworks Management) that came from the broken 10.1 Release. zypper is the backend for all the package management in openSUSE and does the really heavy lifting. It's a great system. Good Luck! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 11:12 -0800, Charles Obler wrote:

--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

...

Is zypper the product that used to tie up the system? I remember being forced to disable a task with a similar name, along with beagle, two years ago, when I installed 10.2. I don't see either running now, and my system is running just fine. Zypper is what came of the broken addition of

From: Larry Stotler Charles Obler wrote: the Rug and ZMD(Zenworks Management) that came from the broken 10.1 Release. zypper is the backend for all the package management in openSUSE and does the really heavy lifting. It's a great system. Good Luck! Ah yes! -- zen! How did we manage to get rid of the bathwater (zen) without getting rid of the baby (zypper)? Zypper is working perfectly for me. It installed 2 gigabytes of software last night without a single problem. Zypper is one of the things about 11.2 that I really like. Kudos to the zypper team!

Ditto, I had to reinstall openSUSE yesterday onto a new laptop [old openSUSE laptop died; hardware died]. zypper pulled in all the tools I need/want - one-click install Monodevelop, Banshee, proprietary codecs, etc... and lots of updates. Oh, and the Nvidia driver [which got setup automatically]. Fantastic. Everything worked perfectly. openSUSE 11.2 - a great leap *FORWARD*. And 11.1 was already pretty sweet. -- openSUSE http://www.opensuse.org/en/ Linux for human beings who need to get work done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

C said the following on 02/23/2010 12:32 PM:

So.. let me see if I understand here.... you've got a *broken*, incomplete install. You have not upgraded to KDE 4.4 or at least 4.3.5... and you're continuing to fight a broken install?... and you're having major issues... which all could very likely be linked back to a failed broken install? Why in the world are you continuing on this path? If the install failed... logic dictates that you would re-install.

But .. but ... but .. But then it might actually work and he'd have nothing to bi*ch about. -- "The greatest of all faults is to be conscious of none. Recognizing our limitations & imperfections is the first requisite of progress. Those who believe they have "arrived" believe they have nowhere to go. Some not only have closed their minds to new truth, but they sit on the lid." -- Dale Turner. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

I've asked for advice on the re-install, and so far, I have received none. The only messages that seem to get attention are KDE 4 impression messages. Complaining about KDE 4 is probably a lot easier than solving real problems!

And KDE users sure seem to do *A LOT* of complaining. Simply baffling. Using the latest openSUSE w/GNOME 8-9 hours a day here. It's GREAT! 11.2 is stable, fast, and productive. A thanks to the entire openSUSE team/project. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 23 Feb 2010 17:32:25 C wrote:

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 18:20, Charles Obler wrote:

So.. let me see if I understand here.... you've got a *broken*, incomplete install. You have not upgraded to KDE 4.4 or at least 4.3.5... and you're continuing to fight a broken install?... and you're having major issues... which all could very likely be linked back to a failed broken install? Why in the world are you continuing on this path? If the install failed... logic dictates that you would re-install.

C.

You know what . At one time if you mentioned a RE-install of an Linux install you got blasted to hell and back yet now here you are openly telling people re-install are you sure you are not getting Linux and windblows mixed up somewhere along the line or has Linux now become so unsteady on it's feet that re-installs and reboots are the order of the day seems to me to be a very big case of double standards Pete . -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 23:44 up 31 days 14:27, 3 users, load average: 0.50, 0.53, 0.28

On Tuesday 23 Feb 2010 23:59:43 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Peter Nikolic [02-23-10 18:51]:

...

You know what . At one time if you mentioned a RE-install of an Linux install you got blasted to hell and back yet now here you are openly telling people re-install are you sure you are not getting Linux and windblows mixed up somewhere along the line or has Linux now become so unsteady on it's feet that re-installs and reboots are the order of the day seems to me to be a very big case of double standards

Change yer nikkers, Pete. Their soiled!

Spehrical Rhomboids ! -- Powered by openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.30-rc6-git3-4- default KDE: 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 1" 00:14 up 31 days 14:56, 3 users, load average: 0.57, 0.72, 0.58

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:55:00 Charles Obler wrote:

----- Original Message ---- From: Larry Stotler To: opensuse@opensuse.org Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 9:41:14 AM Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards? [...] The KDE team may realize how much stuff they removed was actually used at some point.

They didn't *remove* anything. When you start with a completely blank canvas there is nothing to remove, only to add. If anything is missing it is because it hasn't been coded and tested yet! KDE4 <> KDE3. As I understand it there is basically nothing common between the two except the name and the developers.

----- Reply ----- Well, at least the KDE developers are learning how much their efforts PRIOR to KDE 4 were appreciated!

There is something about this that doesn't make sense. I'd like to know exactly who it was who decided that we needed "A Whole New Concept" -- [...]

The point was that it was a whole new project, using a completely new development environment, with very different paradigms. It is a completely new UI built from scratch that just happens to be developed by the same team that developed the previous generation, and unfortunately happens to share the name (unfortunately only because of the expectations of some very vocal users who don't like change and have never paid a cent for the software yet expect to be able to demand what a volunteer developer actually produces whilst working on a project in his/her spare time to indulge his/her own passion). OK, I've vented my frustration and I feel better now :-). Time to move on. -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au =================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:37:35 Anton Aylward wrote:

Rodney Baker said the following on 02/23/2010 09:00 AM:

...

...

[....] The KDE team may realize how much stuff they removed was actually used at some point.

They didn't *remove* anything. When you start with a completely blank canvas there is nothing to remove, only to add. If anything is missing it is because it hasn't been coded and tested yet! KDE4 <> KDE3. As I understand it there is basically nothing common between the two except the name and the developers.

Perhaps they should have used a different name, then there wouldn't be a lot of this bi*ching.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au =================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:52:45 Lubos Lunak wrote:

On Tuesday 23 of February 2010, Rodney Baker wrote:

...

On Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:55:00 Charles Obler wrote:

...

----- Original Message ---- From: Larry Stotler To: opensuse@opensuse.org Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 9:41:14 AM Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?

[...]

The KDE team may realize how much stuff they removed was actually used at some point.

They didn't *remove* anything. When you start with a completely blank canvas there is nothing to remove, only to add. If anything is missing it is because it hasn't been coded and tested yet! KDE4 <> KDE3. As I understand it there is basically nothing common between the two except the name and the developers.

And you understand it wrong. And I've already explained that once, in this very thread.

Really, what is the purpose of this thread when even people who actively make it go on and on do not read it anyway? If all you want is just to talk and talk and not listen, talking to a wall should do as well, without wasting time and annoying the rest of people on this list.

That is the sort of attitude that gets others off-side, Lubos. In case you misunderstood my point, I was *defending* KDE4 and the developers. It seems that was lost on you. If I wasn't clear enough and you misunderstood, please accept my apologies.

...

OK, I've vented my frustration and I feel better now :-). Time to move on.

How thoughtful and nice of you. You now feel better and many people on this list feel worse because they had to get over nonsense thread. Let's just everybody do this. Oh wait, that's what already happens.

My frustration is with those who whinge and complain without constructively contributing to the project, not with those who actively contribute by testing, submitting bug reports, providing useful feedback etc. and generally try to assist in ensuring that KDE4 achieves its potential. I could name several on this list who are in the latter category, but I'm sure I don't need to...

For the next time, a better place to vent your frustration is for example working in your garden, doing a sport or seeing a psychoanalyst. This place is a user mailing list and it's no wonder it's such a horrible dump when so many people here fail to realize what it is and it is not for.

And comments like this from developers to those who seek to defend them against (IMHO unjustified) criticism doesn't help build good-will between developers and users either. FWIW, I think the KDE devs are doing a great job with KDE4. I've been using it since it was first included in openSUSE as 4.0.4 (at that stage alongside 3.5) and exclusively since 4.3.1 (or maybe even before that, I can't remember exactly when I stopped using 3.5). I might not use every feature in 4.4 and there are some I can definitely do without (like strigi/nepomuk and other such desktop indexing and searching utilities) but I can see the value in them for others so you won't find me complaining about them. Disabling them is easy if they're not needed. Having recently had need to use MacOSX for a few hours (because it was the only thing available) I'd say 4.4 compares pretty favourably with that; in fact, if I hadn't used 4.3 and 4.4 prior to jumping onto the Mac, it would have taken me a lot longer to get done what I needed to get done on it because it is so radically different than KDE 3.5 or Windoze. Keep up the good work (and try to be nice to those who are sticking up for you, even if you don't think you need it). -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au =================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2010. február 24. 12:22 napon Lubos Lunak írta: [snip]

How thoughtful and nice of you. You now feel better and many people on this list feel worse because they had to get over nonsense thread. Let's just everybody do this. Oh wait, that's what already happens.

No one has to get over this nonsense thread unless he wants. You are free to skip it. And I don't think that anyone feels worse because of it but if does then deserves it. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Istvan Gabor [02-21-10 18:28]:

This is what I and many more really don't need: translucent windows on cylnders and cubes.

And no requirement to run KDE4. There *are* other windowmanagers available. You either like it or don't and apparently you do not. So why use it and continually *bxxxx* about it? Use something else or constructively support it. We are to the point that you are just making hot air, perhaps contributing to the "global warming". -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 20 February 2010 13:38:47 Felix Miata wrote:

Have you considered that one using mc might be using it in a virtual console?

Given that he was talking about dolphin, and that the rest of the email was a rant about kde4, no, I didn't consider that :)

When that's the case, it's necessary to first switch to X to discover any device notifier waiting on a response, then switch back to return to the task at hand. Discovering auto mounting has not occurred and manual mounting, and/or switching to X, grabbing a rodent, and switching back from X, can take longer than actually performing the desired task in mc, possibly 5 times longer.

Yes, but if you're running in a text console when X is up and running locally, you have only yourself to blame. There is also standard "mount" and halmount if you don't want to su to root. If you're working in text mode, you need to know about these things, otherwise you should stick with the GUI tools Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 20 February 2010 14:35:45 Felix Miata wrote:

I thus blame myself for keeping at least one mc session up on a virtual console 24/7 and being more comfortable with larger text in fullscreen mode when performing routine file management chores. Silly me for wanting to be able to read whole pathnames at a comfortably large size, and no silly itty bitty pictures to try to steal my focus.

You should blame yourself for that, yes. Most people know you can run mc in X, and configure it to have any font size and resolution you want, with far more flexibility than any frame buffer driver Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 20 February 2010 18:55:38 Felix Miata wrote:

IOW, there are valid reasons for using virtual consoles even while X is running,

Perhaps. But it is entirely irrelevant to what the OP was asking about Feel free to complain, but please start a new thread for it Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2010/02/21 02:37 (GMT+0100) Carlos E. R. composed:

On Saturday, 2010-02-20 at 12:55 -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Please provide an URL to the HOWTO that explains how one runs a different resolution in MC than in the rest of X, and a different font size in MC than ^^^^^^^^^^ the rest of Konsole.

I do.

You run a different _screen_resolution_ in MC than in the rest of X? Where's the HOWTO I asked for?

I routinely use mc in X and I like it more than in text mode console. Often I have 4 or five terminals with mc in all of them viewing different directories

So do I. How many one can have open at once has nothing to do with my questions.

Konsole? You don't /have/ to use konsole, there are more.

All other terminals I've tried while running KDE start up in mousetype mode, so all I ever use them for is demonstrating what mousetype looks like. -- "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2010-02-20 at 20:50 -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

open an xterm instance and <ctrl><right-click> in it *before* opening mc

Or after. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkuAnecACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U6GgCfUXPdcZ0HSY3jCXpnwdJReWQW zCsAoIkGZ/COt2JF+3LXB1mFsey1j0jS =mKnN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 24 February 2010 17:10:46 Larry Stotler wrote:

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 9:09 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

I think you're doing the wrong comparison here. When Vista appeared, it was considered by many a major change and disruption. And KDE 4 was a similar kind of major change. It's not a step backwards, it's a very big step forwards that breaks backward compatibilty and usage in some ways,

There are other similarities tho Andreas. Vista was supposedly a rewrite like KDE4 is suppoed to be a rewrite, but many existing bugs from older versions plague both platforms.

I realize that it's not the openSUSE team's fault that the KDE team took a radically different direction with KDE4. You guys just package up what they offer(and contribute back as you can). However, KDE4 has had a lot of shortcomings to say the least.

I think we have a better experience than with Vista but a similar disruption for some. And speaking with KDE developers and seeing some of the things they develop in KDE, I think KDE has a really great architecture and will succeed. KDE4 is different and change is something that most people don't like. Whether there are significant shortcomings or not, is something we could discuss for ages. The question is whether we're open to change and understand it, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126