On Tue, 2011-12-06 at 10:45 -0500, Matt Hayes wrote:

On 12/6/2011 10:37 AM, LinuxIsOne wrote:

...

I was just thinking that though openSUSE is more smooth and works better and has more clean architecture than Ubuntu but still why Ubuntu is more popular? The only answer I have for that is: Who cares?

+1 So long as it has a sustainable user-base, why bother asking. These questions just result in long pointless threads with lots of arrogant conjecture. Who knows why anything is popular or catches the 'meme' of the moment? That is just like asking why some entirely proprietary IT companies [Apple, Google, etc...] are treated warmly while other equally proprietary companies [Microsoft] are vilified? It is just the fevers of the mob; don't spend too much time thinking about it. Time is better spent writing code! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

<snip>

After all, isn't that the only sensible explanation for a couple billion people still desperately clinging on to Microsoft Windows? :-D

H. First, a smidgin of background. I come from 24+ years in the IT field. Where IBM had the perfect VM (Virtual Machine) environment where VM was the initial OS that the mainframe booted from. Within it, you could run, literally, any OS that ran the OS/360 instruction set. They had VM down to a science, so much so, I witnessed running VM - 6 - yes, 6 - levels deep - without a hitch. Although by the 6th level it was getting pretty slow. _Remember, all this was before, when the

On 12/06/2011 09:55 AM, Haro de Grauw wrote: mainframe was slower than today's PC's and the mainframes had an average of 512M or less of real memory._ Linux still has not won over "the windows gamers" and, at this point, any other software that "requires" windows. Yes, I know there is WINE and others, BUT that is still running within an emulator (which still is not "perfected"). And, yes, there is always "dual boot" BUT that just added an extra step in the problem. As for me, yes, at home, I run Linux (openSUSE) exclusively. However, I still require windows, because my piano tuning software will - not - run in "virtual" windows. The developer says that Linux does not have some sort of hardware "call" for what is needed by the software. Along with, I only know about the US, the Tax Software. So why would many people add to their troubles by switching to Linux - then - having to add the "virtual" world - then - installing the Tax software. My take on the solution - is windows will never go away until all "windows" software can run "natively" within Linux. That being said, then, more than likely, Linux will end up being susceptible to all the "nasties" of Windows. _Or, the emulation software becomes the primary OS (just like IBM's) and everything else runs within it._ Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/06/2011 04:45 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Duaine Hechler wrote:

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My take on the solution - is windows will never go away until all "windows" software can run "natively" within Linux. For most business users, Windows could go away tomorrow. I've been running my business entirely on Linux for more than five years.

Then why don't they ??

...

That being said, then, more than likely, Linux will end up being susceptible to all the "nasties" of Windows.

_Or, the emulation software becomes the primary OS (just like IBM's) There are far more MVS-only shops than there ever were VM-installations. True - however, VM was used to support multiple VSE machines (Cheaper than moving and supporting MVS). One shop I was in, we had 5 copies of VSE running which included one for production, one for test and 3 for development - for different versions of VSE, CICS and Assembler vs COBOL versions of the same production software.

Also, another strange fact, that VM was initially written to run VSE - as developers were writing MVS (and its predecessors) Plus, that was before IBM came up with LPARS (Logical Partitions) in the hardware. Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/12/11 17:14, Per Jessen wrote:

Duaine Hechler wrote:

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On 12/06/2011 04:45 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Duaine Hechler wrote:

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My take on the solution - is windows will never go away until all "windows" software can run "natively" within Linux. For most business users, Windows could go away tomorrow. I've been running my business entirely on Linux for more than five years. Then why don't they ?? I think because they don't really care. For the business it doesn't really matter if they use one or the other. There are also advantages to staying with Windows - no staff adaption/training period, availability of IT staff/externals.

Or they just can't get the support from any "other than Windows" suppliers! Our company has just gone through the process, and were SERIOUSLY looking at a Linux solution (in particular, Novell).But after months of trying to get support, both off the web and locally (Qld, Aus.) we gave up and have gone for another Microsoft solution. Really frustrating! John. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:51 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

In our company, they are doing all this stuff with sharing documents and such. Sharepoint, I think it is. Once you start the MS path with that, you are pretty much committed. In a company of 8000 engineers, reworking all that document integration is not likely to happen. Unless migration is (1) automated, (2) bullet-proof, (3) feature comparable + extras to warrant the move in the first place, (4) makes the bean counters happy.

Is there a supported Linux alternative to Sharepoint? I mean a complete professional supported product. Not bits and pieces the average IT department will never get working.

I think MS upped the ante and don't see Office or simple file sharing as the way to lock in customers. It is their infrastructure products such as Sharepoint that does the trick these days. These are much more difficult to duplicate in an open source solution as they are undocumented services. If you thought SMB was tricky to reverse engineer...

You mean to say that MS is better? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 03:24 -0600, Duaine Hechler wrote:

On 12/07/2011 01:59 AM, LinuxIsOne wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:51 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

In our company, they are doing all this stuff with sharing documents and such. Sharepoint, I think it is. Once you start the MS path with that, you are pretty much committed. In a company of 8000 engineers, reworking all that document integration is not likely to happen. Unless migration is (1) automated, (2) bullet-proof, (3) feature comparable + extras to warrant the move in the first place, (4) makes the bean counters happy. Is there a supported Linux alternative to Sharepoint? I mean a complete professional supported product. Not bits and pieces the average IT department will never get working.

I know I was looking into eGroupware. http://www.egroupware.org/solutions

Perhaps some components in eGroupware are also in Sharepoint. But Sharepoint deals with the contents of documents as well as simply manage storage. Zope had a document management system with some of these features. It supported many document types who's contents became part of the system. I am not a Sharepoint user. So all the bells and whistles are unknown to me. Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:26 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

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You mean to say that MS is better?

Better than what? I was making an example of something that leads a company to be strongly committed to MS.

Oh I see. And yes one more thing -- in my opinion openSUSE is the best distro from around 10 Live Cds I have seen! I don't use MS but also I don't know Linux and still I like openSUSE and I am sure in the future it would be easy to be compatible with openSUSE. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

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You mean to say that MS is better?

For some fields certainly, like: Marketing, Sales, extortion ....

Ah I see. But I guess in the future only Linux would dominate the world! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 09:36 -0500, LinuxIsOne wrote:

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

...

You mean to say that MS is better?

...

For some fields certainly, like: Marketing, Sales, extortion ....

Ah I see. But I guess in the future only Linux would dominate the world!

certainly not! Don't forget Apple ;-) No, seriously. One of the problems lies in the fact that if Joe-everage buys a new computer, it is delivered by default with Microsoft. Even worse, if you specifically ask a system without OS, they charge you more instead of less. Eventhough such chain-purchasemensts are forbidden by law in the EU, it is still common practice.... Just imagine, that if you buy a bookshelf, it comes by default with the bible, quaran and thora (and they charge you for it!!!) Just because, according to them, you "just need them". And by the way, if you happen to own other/elder booshelves, you are not allowed to put those holy books in the older one, because you don't own the books, you are only allowed to use them in the context they see fit. Honestly, i've given up that battle, MS-refund doesn't work, and i just accept the micosoft tax on any hardware. But,returning to the original question, Canonical has done good marketing. When installing, the only thing an end-luser must think about, is "do i have 32-bit or 64-bit machine". You don't have to know anything about the hardware or what you might want to install on your system. Just the same reason that Klaus Knopper with its knoppix was so popular 10 years ago. Even though SuSE with its distro, manuals and OBS-repositories is far more advanced and user friendly, the first step is still too steep. Besides promoting the live images... When installing SuSE the installer should ask just two questions: 1) Are you an advanced user (default:NO) 2) if still in moron-mode, ask to keep any rubbish on the hard disk (default: YES) and it dual boot with windows. And install as much as possible office, games stuff. Regarding the amount of available treasures, have a bootable, dual-layer DVD with just single architecture. Or even better, a 16GB usb-stick instead of an dvd... (and for the elite, a dual layer usb-stick >:-)))) hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Roger Luedecke wrote:

Uh... you can get HP computers without Windows installed... and its a good bit cheaper. You have to purchase throught their SMB module which is the Small and Medium Business department.

So what you really meant is "you, assuming you are a small-to-medium sized business, can get HP computers without Windows installed" :-( -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

Just imagine, that if you buy a bookshelf, it comes by default with the bible, quaran and thora (and they charge you for it!!!) Just because, according to them, you "just need them".

much worst, it could add the bible only, not thinking one can be muslim, jewish or atheist (or other) :-) Windows, but not MacOX, nor Linux, FreeBSD... jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 12:26:08AM +0100, Hans Witvliet wrote: [ 8< ]

Even though SuSE with its distro, manuals and OBS-repositories is far more advanced and user friendly, the first step is still too steep.

Besides promoting the live images... When installing SuSE the installer should ask just two questions: 1) Are you an advanced user (default:NO)

Not ebven this question must be asked. All we should offer is a small and not very prominent button labled with 'Expert options'. A native speaker might even offer a better wording.

2) if still in moron-mode, ask to keep any rubbish on the hard disk (default: YES) and it dual boot with windows. And install as much as possible office, games stuff.

Right. And never ask in the default workflow about which window manager to use. Cause a new user doesn't know and care about this. But this is all to much to understand to our beloved KDE and Gnome fans. When do we finally manage to keep it simple stupid? Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 02:27:47PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Lars Müller wrote:

...

On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 12:26:08AM +0100, Hans Witvliet wrote: [ 8< ]

...

2) if still in moron-mode, ask to keep any rubbish on the hard disk (default: YES) and it dual boot with windows. And install as much as possible office, games stuff.

Right. And never ask in the default workflow about which window manager to use. Cause a new user doesn't know and care about this.

But this is all to much to understand to our beloved KDE and Gnome fans.

When do we finally manage to keep it simple stupid?

When somebody volunteers to simplify it :-)

No. As long as we try to treat KDE and Gnome coequal this will not happen. From the YaST code this is easy to implement. But as long as the majority of the develeopers and advanced users do not agree on making the install work flow as simple and easy as possible nothing will change. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 02:58:22PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote: [ 8< ]

It seems to me that at most it is a question of adding a tickbox that says "Simplified installation", and amending the installation process to whatever we think is simple. We already have a tickbox for "automatic configuration" that works in a similar way.

No, no, and one more no. Cause a beginner doesn't know that this simplified installation mode is good for beginners. I consider it also bad from the psycho motivation. Who is willing to be a beginner? As soon as you decided to go the expert way and then something goes wrong it's much easier to understand. For a person used to use Linux it's much, much easiert to decide against the default workflow. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 05:28:28PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Lars Müller wrote:

...

On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 02:58:22PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote: [ 8< ]

...

It seems to me that at most it is a question of adding a tickbox that says "Simplified installation", and amending the installation process to whatever we think is simple. We already have a tickbox for "automatic configuration" that works in a similar way.

No, no, and one more no.

Cause a beginner doesn't know that this simplified installation mode is good for beginners. I consider it also bad from the psycho motivation. Who is willing to be a beginner? As soon as you decided to go the expert way and then something goes wrong it's much easier to understand. For a person used to use Linux it's much, much easiert to decide against the default workflow.

Yes, yes and one more yes. :-) We're talking about two different things - you seem to be talking about changing the default, I'm _only_ proposing adding another installation flow.

"another" = additional? To make the matrix even more complex? I might not get your approach. But by adding yet another dialog and asking the user if it is a simplified guy and likes to run the the simplified installation workflow we even add one more question and also risk to annoy the advanced users too.

I agree that changing the default is going to be an uphill struggle (I'll leave that to you) and not in line with our strategy, but offering a simplified installation path is perfectly possible.

Sorry, what is our strategy you have in mind? Why do you consider this an uphill struggle? And why do you think you can leave that up to me? A simplified install workflow isn't only possible. I consider it as within reach. This is mainly a question of checking which dialogs are really needed. It's already possible to mostly only click the botton labled next without entering anything. And a beginner doesn't care about KDE or Gnome. The network configuration is mostly driven by a DHCP server. I moved the gathered input to https://features.opensuse.org/313062 There I've added even a reference to the beginning of this thread. Feel free to vote. I volunteer to help if someone of the community likes to work on this. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

From my experience with colleagues and family who all use / have used Linux to various degrees, there are a few very simple reasons why most (at least partly) cling to Microsoft: 1) Windows is free of charge to them because it is preinstalled on every consumer-grade PC, so there is no value to them in Linux being free. I have even had people discounting building their own PC and rather take 2nd-best and buy from the store because they would have to buy (and install) Windows separately on the DIY box. 2) Windows is preinstalled while Linux requires a separate installation (with a risk of destroying whatever they have on Windows). This is a close to unsurmountable hurdle to average computer users who not only do not know the Linux terminology which is often different to what they know from Windows, but more often than not they don't even know what a partition is so can't even make choices from the very simplest installer. 3) Everybody has Windows, and they don't want to miss out on the coolest or hottest download out there that their buddies tell them about. They do not (want to) understand the concept of SW repositories, and don't mind downloading and installing crap from even the most untrusted websites (which is quite different from the way SW is installed in Linux). If that ruins their Windows installation, there is always a friend who is a "Windows expert" and fixes their problem / reinstalls Windows for them. 4) They use software for which they believe there is no equivalent in Linux. Most of the time, it is sufficient for them to maintain that believe that they do not see a Linux version of their SW (but unfortunately in some cases they may be right). 5) There is a perception of Linux being complicated, and the only "big" distribution that I know that helps them getting started with Linux based on their computer skills and Windows background is Ubuntu. Most other distros are made by Linuxers for Linuxers, and will only leave our Windows folks frustrated, with their Linux preconceptions being confirmed. 6) Given that everyone uses Windows and noone uses Linux, it must be true that Windows is better and Linux is - at best - something for geeks. There may be more but that's my main experience. One thing is for sure,however: many people would be prepared to try Linux if they had to purchase Windows at extra cost, but as has been said in other posts, that is prevented by M$'s illegal practice of enforcing bundling of new computers with Windows. /K.-H. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/11/2011 05:37 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Sun, 2011-12-11 at 22:02 +0100, karl-heinz_tm wrote:

...

From my experience with colleagues and family who all use / have used Linux to various degrees, there are a few very simple reasons why most (at least partly) cling to Microsoft:

1) Windows is free of charge to them because it is preinstalled on every consumer-grade PC, so there is no value to them in Linux being free. I have even had people discounting building their own PC and rather take 2nd-best and buy from the store because they would have to buy (and install) Windows separately on the DIY box.

2) Windows is preinstalled while Linux requires a separate installation (with a risk of destroying whatever they have on Windows). This is a close to unsurmountable hurdle to average computer users who not only do not know the Linux terminology which is often different to what they know from Windows, but more often than not they don't even know what a partition is so can't even make choices from the very simplest installer.

3) Everybody has Windows, and they don't want to miss out on the coolest or hottest download out there that their buddies tell them about. They do not (want to) understand the concept of SW repositories, and don't mind downloading and installing crap from even the most untrusted websites (which is quite different from the way SW is installed in Linux). If that ruins their Windows installation, there is always a friend who is a "Windows expert" and fixes their problem / reinstalls Windows for them.

4) They use software for which they believe there is no equivalent in Linux. Most of the time, it is sufficient for them to maintain that believe that they do not see a Linux version of their SW (but unfortunately in some cases they may be right).

5) There is a perception of Linux being complicated, and the only "big" distribution that I know that helps them getting started with Linux based on their computer skills and Windows background is Ubuntu. Most other distros are made by Linuxers for Linuxers, and will only leave our Windows folks frustrated, with their Linux preconceptions being confirmed.

6) Given that everyone uses Windows and noone uses Linux, it must be true that Windows is better and Linux is - at best - something for geeks.

There may be more but that's my main experience. One thing is for sure,however: many people would be prepared to try Linux if they had to purchase Windows at extra cost, but as has been said in other posts, that is prevented by M$'s illegal practice of enforcing bundling of new computers with Windows.

Indeed, as i stated before, windows-free new computers aren't available for the general public.

For every PC sold, it should be an add-on options, with a price tag.

Also, MS's exploits go back to the DOS days, before Windows ever got popular. In the beginning, how 'Windows' got started. Despite the efforts of the PC makers to stay with DOS, Microsoft pressured them to install Windows. In some reports, Microsoft would even put 'agreements' on the makers that they would have to pay for each copy of the windows operating system, whether or not they actually install it. AND, Most of you may have heard of IBM's OS/2. After Microsoft broke away from IBM on the project, IBM kept going with it and had plans to make it a very aggressive competitor against Windows. After gaining major ground and becoming a serious threat to Microsoft, they put a plan in place to stifle development on the platform. They forced software developers to sign agreements that if they wrote software for the Windows platform, they could not write (or port) the same software to any other platform. So after the OS/2 software market not gaining any ground, IBM decided to throw in the towel and starting to drop support of the product. Keeping a history of MS's tactics since 1994: http://www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com/other/microsoft.html Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

Lars Müller said the following on 12/08/2011 07:51 AM:

...

When do we finally manage to keep it simple stupid?

Oh? Somewhere along the line Microsoft has been both "dumbing down" and "educating up" users. They now know how to use the mouse, pull down menus and such. Microsoft has introduced many radical (?!?!) features like the floating menus strip (or do you call it tear-off menus?), the "do everything via a GUI" approach and the supporting APIs that mean the GUI is not simply a front-end for the "command line behind the scenes".

The cost of this, for many users (and that includes sysadmins) is that what were difficult, multi-step, multi-decision tasks at the command line level are now GUI-fied and don't need a great deal of understanding. I'm not saying my cat can configure Windows, but seeing how some Windows sysadmins just bat the mouse around I'm not sure there is a lot of difference.

Does this mean that computing has gone the same way as the automobile industry where, in the search for profit, a hormone crazed, distracted, irresponsible, immature sixteen year old can drive two tons of poorly maintained (and possibly uninsured) Detroit Iron down the highway at breakneck speeds while drunk, stoned and deafened by a sound system that is worth more than the car itself and which compete with the the THX system at my local theatre, but is treated the same as the eco-conscious 40-year-old experienced driver in the Prius

If some 40-year old is driving a Prius for the benefit of the ecological environment, then he's even more dangerous than the drunk, deaf, and stoned out of his gourd 16-year old... In the morning, the 16 year old will be sober, and in a few years, he'll mature somewhat. In contrast to the aforementioned stoner, the Prius owner has had 40 years to pull his head out of his ass and stop believing in hippie fairy tales, but still hasn't, and never will. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, December 07, 2011 05:13 AM Per Jessen wrote:

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 17:38 +1000, John Bennett wrote:

...

Or they just can't get the support from any "other than Windows" suppliers! Our company has just gone through the process, and were SERIOUSLY looking at a Linux solution (in particular, Novell).But after months of trying to get support, both off the web and locally (Qld, Aus.) we gave up and have gone for another Microsoft solution. Really frustrating!

In our company, they are doing all this stuff with sharing documents and such. Sharepoint, I think it is. Once you start the MS path with that, you are pretty much committed. In a company of 8000 engineers, reworking all that document integration is not likely to happen.

Yet a larger company is much more likely to be able to carry out a successful migration. Of course, a larger company will also have far more inertia and many more well-placed MS people to stop any such ideas well in advance. :-(

Ah, this thread continues to live on . . . my feelings won't be hurt if the following is longer (and it is long, you've been warned) than your schedule permits :) . . . Per's comment above re "inertia" deserves a lot of consideration. It is *huge*. IMO, this is the most useful and relevant comment in this thread. All the talk about this or that detail, while certainly very important to the users affected, as well as to those with broader experience like ourselves, are in the big picture just that . . . details. It seems that often the distinctions between the data center and the desktop, and between businesses vs consumers, get blurred. And yet, inertia is the critical factor in all these market segments. The difference is in the form that the inertia takes. For a business, switching costs are typically enormous. As Per also observed, the larger the company, typically the better equipped it is to handle migration. It is also likely to understand switching costs better - and the difficult to quantity soft costs, and risks (mostly non-technical), that can easily be larger than direct costs like sw conversion. Mgmt understands this. Anyone having worked in sales for one of the big hw/sw vendors mentioned, knows that virtually every new deal is primarily a matter of how to displace the incumbent. Discounting your way to winning occasionally works, but it's too expensive. In most cases, in the end, it's a matter of convincing whomever writes the check that the long-term benefits outweigh all the difficult switching costs (or convincing whomever the economic buyer delegates the decision to). It's a very high hurdle. Smaller enterprises don't have this sophistication. But the inertia is still there. They only know what they know, and they don't know what they don't know. And unlike big companies, they don't have to resources let alone disposition to find out. That's not flippant; it just describes the mind-set. If a supplier has a monopoly position, it is the default. The business will decide based on comfort, safety, and money. Comfort comes from what you already know and safety from what everyone else uses. So the cost/benefit decision takes a simpler form, but the hurdle is there nonetheless. By the way, in the public (govt) market segment, the issues are largely the same, but with politics being a much bigger factor. Some national and state govts have, or at least have tried, to adopt Linux. A few have succeeded. But in most cases, the push-back has been enormous. Helped by the incumbent, who will neutralize much of the price advantage with discounts, making the hurdle in this cost-driven segment extremely high. In the consumer desktop market, inertia is nearly everything. The Linux world has touted "free" and "freedom" forever. In this market, with very little traction. The comfort and safety factors, rightly or wrongly, far outweigh not paying for Windows in most geographies. And the typical Windows user only cares about the app s/he uses, not the bevy of free stuff available. Concepts such as "open source" are meaningless. Sure there are exceptions, but the percentage is extremely small. So why has Ubuntu been successful? First, define "success". Relative to Windows? That's ridiculous. All of Linux on the consumer desktop combined barely moves the needle. Why has Ubuntu been more successful compared to other distros? Because it has done a better job with comfort and safety for its target user. I contributed to the Ubuntu project for ~2 yrs following release. Canonical put a lot of money and resources behind it. There was no democracy; Shuttleworth made the important calls, even about details. And there was a very tight focus on attracting typical Windows users, mostly younger people, with a lot of outreach in emerging markets. The key was rapidly building a large community providing excellent support and good documentation, and then building on top of that. The system wasn't remotely what SuSE and Fedora were (but Novell & Red Hat's desktop target was really the business end-user anyway, not the consumer market). Other commercial attempts failed (including mine, btw). Ubuntu "just worked", just enough (barely at first), for its target audience. It achieved awareness and mind-share. It became the default in this space. And so, roughly speaking, it is the incumbent. If openSUSE wants to attract the same new Windows users as Ubuntu, it will automatically be compared to Ubuntu, and it will have to overcome the inertia factor that Ubuntu has created. That begs the question, does openSUSE want the *same* users as Ubuntu? I asked this question in a prev thread, and was pointed to "Linux for Adults". Beginners are welcome, but the project is looking for "contributors". That profile fits some Ubuntu users, but only some. Ubuntu has built on its core "just works" user base, and so it also now has mass. And money. And commercial intentions. And btw it delivers a lot less, leaving servers to a sister project and other DE's to forks. To the original question, the simplest answer is that the projects are not the same in many different and important ways. And that is intentional. And that will naturally result in there being more Ubuntu users than openSUSE users. All of this is fine as long as the openSUSE project can accomplish what it wants for its contributors. And as far as MS or any other monopoly incumbent, the answer will always be the same: Inertia. The only thing that will change this is something like disruptive technology that causes creative destruction, driven by market demand and/or other big dogs - such as has happened in the new mobile computing space with Apple and Google/Android (with both, ironically enough, having a *nix heritage). The stock markets know this, and so does MS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, December 08, 2011 09:18 PM Dirk Gently wrote: [enormously long snip]

...

That begs the question, does openSUSE want the *same* users as Ubuntu?

Bzzzt!

That BEGETS the question. (i.e. it leads to the question).

Begging the question is a logical fallacy in which you assume the conclusion to prove the conclusion (I.e. "This holy book is true because it says so." THAT is begging the question).

I stand corrected and humbled. (Extra embarassment: My wife is a writer and editor; if she had seen that I'd have had a lot worse done to me than getting humbled.) :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, December 08, 2011 09:43 PM Dirk Gently wrote:

Dennis Gallien wrote:

...

On Thursday, December 08, 2011 09:18 PM Dirk Gently wrote:

[enormously long snip]

...

...

That begs the question, does openSUSE want the *same* users as Ubuntu?

Bzzzt!

That BEGETS the question. (i.e. it leads to the question).

Begging the question is a logical fallacy in which you assume the conclusion to prove the conclusion (I.e. "This holy book is true because it says so." THAT is begging the question).

I stand corrected and humbled. (Extra embarassment: My wife is a writer and editor; if she had seen that I'd have had a lot worse done to me than getting humbled.) :)

My primary purpose for posting was so that non-native English speakers wouldn't start adopting this recent and horrible locution which is spreading through this country (USA).

So Dirk, I finally found the website just for you (or perhaps you authored): http://begthequestion.info/ To the non-native English speakers fearing this horrible spreading locution expidemic - and the correction was indubatably accurate - click on the link and as you will see, help is on the way. :) Be sure to also check the FAQ page for how to obtain BTQ shirts and mugs for that native-English speaking "pedantic linguistic curmudgeon" in your life. --dg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:52:53 -0500 Dennis Gallien wrote: <<<<< snip >>>>>

To the non-native English speakers fearing this horrible spreading locution expidemic - and the correction was indubatably accurate - click on the link and as you will see, help is on the way. :)

expidemic ???? Did you mean epidemic? <<<<< snip >>>>> Tom -- Tom Taylor - retired penguin openSUSE 11.4 x86_64 openSUSE 12.1 KDE 4.6.00, FF 4.0 KDE 4.7.2, FF 7.0 claws-mail 3.7.9 registered linux user 263467 linxt-At-comcast-DoT-net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2011 06:26 PM, Thomas Taylor wrote:

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:52:53 -0500 Dennis Gallien wrote:

<<<<< snip>>>>>

...

To the non-native English speakers fearing this horrible spreading locution expidemic - and the correction was indubatably accurate - click on the link and as you will see, help is on the way. :)

expidemic ???? Did you mean epidemic?

<<<<< snip>>>>>

Tom

He might have even meant "indubitably!" --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/19/2011 6:26 PM, Thomas Taylor wrote:

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:52:53 -0500 Dennis Gallien wrote:

<<<<< snip>>>>>

...

To the non-native English speakers fearing this horrible spreading locution expidemic - and the correction was indubatably accurate - click on the link and as you will see, help is on the way. :)

expidemic ???? Did you mean epidemic?

<<<<< snip>>>>>

Tom

A typo is forgivable in a transient communication, and is an entirely different class of issue from ignorance of and misuse of a language. Indubitably there was also a spelling error which in my opinion falls somewhere between the utter insignificance of a typo (in a non-critical part of a non-critical, transient, communication) and the valuable (in that it caused me to become more educated) misuse of a common phrase. Hyperparentheticity is my own disease of the grammar gland. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/20/2011 3:28 PM, Dennis Gallien wrote:

The imaginative element is in the spontaneous invention of the word. The entertaining element is in how it makes my English-teacher spouse climb the wall.

Well it shouldn't. Spontaneous invention of words made of other words and word parts is a hallmark of English (and German, so I'm told), and has been around forever. Just as the phrase "Verbing weirds the language." makes perfect sense, adding a prefix (or two) and a suffix (or three) to build a new word is well within the "rules" of English, and is just part of English's eclectic nature. Unlike French, there is no official list of approved words, and even dictionaries are merely evolving documents of points in time. Which is why the obsession over the current use of "begging the question" is largely pedantry run amok. Usage changes over time. More so in English, perhaps, but not exclusively. To date, this has not presented any significant problem for English as a language, and it is not likely to present any problem as long as English is in use. Should it fall into disuse, linguists studying its entombed remains might be confused for all of half a day, but even this is not unusual in the study of ancient texts. The entire issue revolves around a largely archaic use of the word "beg", which is used almost NOWHERE in English today or for the past hundred years other than in this SINGLE phrase "beg the question". -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 20 December 2011 15:46:24 John Andersen wrote:

...

The entire issue revolves around a largely archaic use of the word "beg", which is used almost NOWHERE in English today or for the past hundred years other than in this SINGLE phrase "beg the question". I beg to differ. It seems as if every other day someone calls on the

On 12/20/2011 07:13 PM, Anders Johansson wrote: phone to beg for a donation. I refused to teach this dog to beg, having learned the hard way with a previous dog. I hardly think the word is archaic. --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, December 20, 2011 06:46 PM John Andersen wrote:

On 12/20/2011 3:28 PM, Dennis Gallien wrote:

...

The imaginative element is in the spontaneous invention of the word. The entertaining element is in how it makes my English-teacher spouse climb the wall.

Well it shouldn't. Spontaneous invention of words made of other words and word parts is a hallmark of English (and German, so I'm told), and has been around forever.

Just as the phrase "Verbing weirds the language." makes perfect sense, adding a prefix (or two) and a suffix (or three) to build a new word is well within the "rules" of English, and is just part of English's eclectic nature.

Unlike French, there is no official list of approved words, and even dictionaries are merely evolving documents of points in time.

Which is why the obsession over the current use of "begging the question" is largely pedantry run amok. Usage changes over time.

More so in English, perhaps, but not exclusively. To date, this has not presented any significant problem for English as a language, and it is not likely to present any problem as long as English is in use. Should it fall into disuse, linguists studying its entombed remains might be confused for all of half a day, but even this is not unusual in the study of ancient texts.

The entire issue revolves around a largely archaic use of the word "beg", which is used almost NOWHERE in English today or for the past hundred years other than in this SINGLE phrase "beg the question".

Thank you. I will forward your reply forthwith to the English-teacher (and editor, btw) in residence. Yours is the most articulate rebuttal I have seen except for my own which in passing seriousness I must say is strikingly similar. However, due to reasons which should be supremely obvious (sleeping within inches of the prof, making me not only vulnerable to the proverbial back-of-the-hand but much more importantly, to deprivation of, er, spousal nourishment), I have taken the coward's way out and only practice my gift in the presence of witnesses whom I could compel to testify in the later spousal- abuse divorce proceeding. The only thing missing from this whole dialog is Dirk, who played the chicken- little role of proclaiming that the "horrible locution" epidemic spreading through the U.S. must not make its way to defenseless non-native English speakers. Dirk, oh Dirk, where art thou? We have a petard upon which we would like to hoist you. (And don't try to get around that because "petard" is French; we have Hamlet in mind so it is quite appropo.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/20/2011 4:50 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

On 12/20/2011 6:46 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

The entire issue revolves around a largely archaic use of the word "beg", which is used almost NOWHERE in English today or for the past hundred years other than in this SINGLE phrase "beg the question".

I beg to differ!

Well played sir. But that's hardly a largely archaic use of the word "beg". -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/20/2011 5:12 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Tuesday 20 December 2011 16:52:43 John Andersen wrote:

...

On 12/20/2011 4:50 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 12/20/2011 6:46 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

The entire issue revolves around a largely archaic use of the word "beg", which is used almost NOWHERE in English today or for the past hundred years other than in this SINGLE phrase "beg the question".

I beg to differ!

Well played sir.

But that's hardly a largely archaic use of the word "beg".

Actually you have it backwards, John. The "beg" in "beg to differ" is archaic, while the beg in "beg the question" is the standard one. It is a translation of the latin petitio principii, where petitio is the latin word for petition or beg.

Anders

If you look up the word Beg, it is defined as plead, solicit, ask, etc. So Begging to differ is in keeping with the most common usage, namely Asking, or Pleading to differ. Its not till you get to the third definition (or later) of beg that you come to the meaning of evade, or sidestep. It is this usage that is limited in usage almost exclusively to "begging the question" and constructions of similar ilk. http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/beg http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beg http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beg http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/beg http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/beg http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/beg <--see especially the reversal in definition 6. All of these have the "beg the question" definition well down the list of acceptable usage, which indicates its rarity and archaic nature. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/20/2011 8:27 PM, John Andersen wrote:

On 12/20/2011 5:12 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Tuesday 20 December 2011 16:52:43 John Andersen wrote:

...

On 12/20/2011 4:50 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 12/20/2011 6:46 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

The entire issue revolves around a largely archaic use of the word "beg", which is used almost NOWHERE in English today or for the past hundred years other than in this SINGLE phrase "beg the question".

I beg to differ!

Well played sir.

But that's hardly a largely archaic use of the word "beg".

Actually you have it backwards, John. The "beg" in "beg to differ" is archaic, while the beg in "beg the question" is the standard one. It is a translation of the latin petitio principii, where petitio is the latin word for petition or beg.

Anders

If you look up the word Beg, it is defined as plead, solicit, ask, etc.

So Begging to differ is in keeping with the most common usage, namely Asking, or Pleading to differ.

Its not till you get to the third definition (or later) of beg that you come to the meaning of evade, or sidestep.

It is this usage that is limited in usage almost exclusively to "begging the question" and constructions of similar ilk.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/beg http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/beg http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beg http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/beg http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/beg http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/beg<--see especially the reversal in definition 6.

All of these have the "beg the question" definition well down the list of acceptable usage, which indicates its rarity and archaic nature.

Ah! Thank you! -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, December 20, 2011 08:58 PM Brian K. White wrote:

On 12/20/2011 8:12 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Tuesday 20 December 2011 16:52:43 John Andersen wrote:

...

On 12/20/2011 4:50 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 12/20/2011 6:46 PM, John Andersen wrote:

[snip]

*sigh* surprised the topic nazi's haven't told us to stop talking about things they don't find interesting yet.

Although I'm still peeved that Dirk has dodged the monster he created. I mean, those posts were so professorial. On the other hand, it *beg*at a little levity before the holidays. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, December 21, 2011 13:07:56 Bob Williams wrote:

On 20/12/11 23:46, John Andersen wrote:

...

The entire issue revolves around a largely archaic use of the word "beg", which is used almost NOWHERE in English today or for the past hundred years other than in this SINGLE phrase "beg the question".

I beg your pardon?

i beg to differ beggars can't be choosers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/21/2011 12:55 PM, grasshopper wrote:

On Wed, 2011-12-21 at 13:59 -0600, sc wrote:

...

On Wednesday, December 21, 2011 13:07:56 Bob Williams wrote:

...

On 20/12/11 23:46, John Andersen wrote:

...

The entire issue revolves around a largely archaic use of the word "beg", which is used almost NOWHERE in English today or for the past hundred years other than in this SINGLE phrase "beg the question".

...

I beg your pardon?

i beg to differ

beggars can't be choosers

In Ireland 'beg' means small in Gaelic. There is a small lake/lough called Lough Beg.

grasshopper

GUYS: Please Stop!! First word of the thread title: ENGLISH. And as explained above, it is not the word BEG that is archaic, it is the particular use/meaning of the word BEG to mean "avoiding", "assuming" or "sidestepping" which is archaic. And, to be specific: "Archaic" does not mean merely OLD, it means having the characteristics of the language of the past and surviving chiefly in specialized uses -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 13:02 -0800, Roger Luedecke wrote:

Yes. There is the Novell Vibe OnPrem product, and its opensource version Kablink.

This is not really the same thing. It seems to me to be yet another combined wiki/blog/forum/shared folder thingie. Sharepoint does not just store things and let people yap at each other (even though it does that aw well). It allows one to manage the content itself. There is a whole Sharepoint API that allows one to make environments based on data and interactions. Go in to a book store and look in the MS books area. Sharepoint development will be a few shelves. Despite the popular opinion of MS, they are not idiots. Sharepoint is surely designed to make it difficult to integrate non-MS desktops AND servers into the setup. I think Sharepoint is a big part of the MS cloud strategy, including the network-based Office suite. Although the cloud is 'out there', there is no standard. My cloud is not your cloud. Which will surely evolve to be My Internet is not your Internet. Still, I'm an optimist. Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Bennett wrote:

On 07/12/11 17:14, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Duaine Hechler wrote:

...

...

Duaine Hechler wrote:

...

My take on the solution - is windows will never go away until all "windows" software can run "natively" within Linux. For most business users, Windows could go away tomorrow. I've been running my business entirely on Linux for more than five years. Then why don't they ?? I think because they don't really care. For the business it doesn't really matter if they use one or the other. There are also advantages to staying with Windows - no staff adaption/training

On 12/06/2011 04:45 PM, Per Jessen wrote: period, availability of IT staff/externals.

Or they just can't get the support from any "other than Windows" suppliers!

Yes, that's what I meant by "IT externals". It is a genuine problem, no doubt about it. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/12/11 22:06, Anton Aylward wrote:

John Bennett said the following on 12/07/2011 02:38 AM:

...

Or they just can't get the support from any "other than Windows" suppliers! Call me cynical but I've never had satisfactory support from ANY vendor for any product even when I've paid for 'extended' or 'supplementary' support.

That goes not only for Microsoft but for IBM, DG and HP as well. But then I tend to study the manuals and 'wolf fence' the problem BEFORE calling support.

A lot of help desk work amounts to them working though a basic fault-tree script and saying "gee that sounds strange, lets see what the manuals say". BTDT taught that to my help desk staff. Most callers don't seem to have read the manual.

But many of the contributors here are probably ahead of the 1st and second level support at vendors, many of them up t the grade of the vendor's developers.

There's also attitude: some of us try to diagnose and identify the problem, find its boundaries. Check "all the usual suspects" and google around a bit.

If you are like that then don't think about vendor support. If you have a problem you can't solve its unlikely they can either. Invest your money in a "sacrificial machine" instead. Experiment on that.

Yeah, sorry, could have explained it better... We were trying to get support from 'someone' to "design" the initial system for us. Although I have quite a bit of experience with Linux, have very little (to none...) as far as setting up a "system" for a small to medium size business. This was the sort of support (ie including buying hardware and all relevant software) that we were after. Managed to get.... none! John. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/07/2011 06:36 AM, C wrote:

...

Yeah, sorry, could have explained it better... We were trying to get support from 'someone' to "design" the initial system for us. Although I have quite a bit of experience with Linux, have very little (to none...) as far as setting up a "system" for a small to medium size business. This was the sort of support (ie including buying hardware and all relevant software) that we were after. Managed to get.... none! So... you've identified a niche market that is not being filled, and

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 13:17, John Bennett wrote: there is likely some demand there... hmmm...

C. Interesting ..... several months ago, I suggested developing a "linux geek squad" support for just an effort.

Never materialized ... however, everyone said its a good idea. Someone, like Novell, needs to start a "start up" program to develop such a network. Maybe even provide FREE help to whoever starts this idea. my take, Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 7:52 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

A Switch, a bunch of machines, Linux.  Lots of flexibility there.

100% correct! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

C said the following on 12/07/2011 07:21 AM:

...

...

problem, find its boundaries. Check "all the usual suspects" and google around a bit.

isn't that the usual way? :-)

Well it seems not. We had an annoying newbie here last month who never seemed capable of that despite begin told to by many members. In other lists I'm on people are complaining that people join to ask questions the answers to which are in the documentation - quite clearly - and also in many articles on the 'Net, but fail to bother and use the list as a crutch. So people like thee and mee who say "go google" are viewed as being intolerant and bad tempered curmudgeons. The frightening this about the "Help Desk" stories is they are true. I'm convinced that Microsoft has "dumbed down" many users, but that's for another thread on another forum. Here's one http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dmitryd/helpdeskfunnies.html you can google for more. -- “We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.” -- John Fitzgerald Kennedy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/07/2011 07:00 AM, C wrote:

Haha, yes. One of my first post-University jobs was manning a help desk. The stories about people complaining about the dust jacket on their mouse (the plastic bag it was shipped in) making it hard to use the mouse are true. C.

I know this ... could ... start a long thread. However, I've got one so stupid, along the mouse situation, that I just had to add. A programmer turned operator on a IBM AS/400 which the keyboards' Enter key is not labeled. So, one night a 3:00 in the morning, the guy calls me and asks me "where is the Enter key on the keyboard" -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 7:21 AM, C wrote:

With support groups like what we have here in openSUSE, or in the many other Linux distros, you have a huge experience resource pool to draw upon... in almost every case, someone somewhere knows the way around the odd problems that crop up... and usually you find your solution faster than you would with paid support.

Yes but the amazing fact is that still MS owns the market to a much level, that is for sure their marketing despite of the fact that Linux is good in all aspects, isn't it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 11:06 AM, James Knott wrote:

LinuxIsOne wrote:

...

Yes but the amazing fact is that still MS owns the market to a much level, that is for sure their marketing despite of the fact that Linux is good in all aspects, isn't it?

Take a look at their history, including how they used forced bundling, extortion, much higher prices for non-exclusive use etc. to force market share.  Windows is generally not sold to end users.  It comes with most computers, denying consumers the right to say no.  Micros~1 has various means to coerce computer manufacturers to use Windows to the exclusion of others.  They have lost in court on this a few times, yet they keep on doing it.

But still it seems amazing! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/08/2011 09:52 PM, j debert wrote:

, LinuxIsOne wrote:

...

But still it seems amazing!

Microsoft Syndrome. Similar to Stockholm Syndrome. Classic.

People are so accustomed to the aggro and pain of Microsoft that the thought of using anything less sadistic is frightening.

They accept that their data will be lost, that their time will be wasted, that they have to do things over and over again, that malwarez will wreak havoc on their systems, data, finances and personal life. They accept that they will have to spend a ton of money on their computers, software, backups, etc., adn. They can't imagine a life without all that, let alone wish for one. Microsoft is Reality. It's The Way The World Is. It's the End All and Be All. It's Existence. Microsoft is God.

That's not entirely sarcasm.

I've seen people's reactions when Microsoft up and fscks everything. They're annoyed at first but quickly they're resigned to it as if that's the way it's supposed to be. Rarely has anyone expressed the slightest desire for anything better.

There are exceptions, of course. People who do not fit the norm. Exceptional people who are not satisfied with that Reality. They know who they are.

Right?

jd AMEN and +1

Every time I tell people that you never - ever have to do a DEFRAG anymore - and - that their personal data is stored in a separate partition and not necessarily needs to be backed up before they do any upgrades - and - should never have to worry about viruses, etc in the foreseeable future - - they are SHOCKED and literally in complete DISBELIEF. Then when I tell them that Linux is FREE - they are very ready to go - - until I tell them they have to get use to a new set of software and the weird names in Linux - - then - - they do a COMPLETE turn about and say I'll just live with the pain of Windows. This is going to back to what I said before - if there was a way to run Windows' software - natively - under Linux, then people would probably jump at the chance of Linux. Oh yeah, when I try to tell people about the OSS movement and Linux was written by people all over the world and collected together - they are COMPLETELY HORRIFIED and how that must be a mass of confusion to keep things straight. Bottom line, I think people feel "safe, warm as fuzzy, they have been around a long time" with Windows. Have learned all their software ONCE, And afraid as hell to have to learn something new - even though, as we know, it is better in the long haul. To me one, one thing that would help, is a MAJOR informational campaign to educate the public of what OSS is about, how it is organized, structured and coordinated and how it becomes a distro of Linux. Then, there are so many, explain the idea of distros and how to pick one. Aside: Why Microsoft doesn't implement the idea of "/home" is completely beyond me. Aside for developers: (I hope this makes sense to someone) Now if someone could take IBM's VM for the mainframe and make it a desktop OS. That way the main OS (vm/pc) would not have to be scheduled and/or paged out, etc. It would be running in "real" time. And all the Windows "real" instructions would be translated to "virtual" instructions and passed to "vm/pc" and executed. This is why IBM tauted that you would not see much of a performance hit when running under VM. Plus it has the equivalent to userid shells using CMS (Conversational Monitoring System) with the default scripting language of REXX (sort of, equal to BASH) - - - - Build it as a kernel extension Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 8:25 AM, James Knott wrote:

BTW, on dual boot Linux/Windows systems, I have created a FAT32 partition and moved "My Documents" to it.  This generally works well, but it confuses some Windows apps.

How you did this? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/9/2011 8:02 AM, James Knott wrote:

LinuxIsOne wrote:

...

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 8:25 AM, James Knott wrote:

...

BTW, on dual boot Linux/Windows systems, I have created a FAT32 partition and moved "My Documents" to it. This generally works well, but it confuses some Windows apps. How you did this?

There are different methods, depending on the Windows version.

XP http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310147

Another alternative is NTFS support in Linux. NTFS support in linux is mature enough now to deal with this so you don't need to whack your Windows system by tossing in Fat32 for key system directories or messing about with partitions. I've been using the Paragon NTFS drivers (free for home use) for some time and they are bullet proof. I use them for plug in media on large external hard drives, not so much for dual-boot partitions. http://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-linux-per/ -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 12:07:06 -0800 From: jsamyth@gmail.com To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: Clinging to Microsoft (was Re: [opensuse] Why openSUSE is less popular than Ubuntu?)

On 12/9/2011 8:02 AM, James Knott wrote:

...

LinuxIsOne wrote:

...

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 8:25 AM, James Knott wrote:

...

BTW, on dual boot Linux/Windows systems, I have created a FAT32 partition and moved "My Documents" to it. This generally works well, but it confuses some Windows apps. How you did this?

There are different methods, depending on the Windows version.

XP http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310147

Another alternative is NTFS support in Linux.

NTFS support in linux is mature enough now to deal with this so you don't need to whack your Windows system by tossing in Fat32 for key system directories or messing about with partitions.

I've been using the Paragon NTFS drivers (free for home use) for some time and they are bullet proof. I use them for plug in media on large external hard drives, not so much for dual-boot partitions.

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/ntfs-linux-per/

Does this driver also fix the problem that writing to a NTFS flash drive fails sometimes? --kdl

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j debert said the following on 12/08/2011 10:52 PM:

Microsoft Syndrome. Similar to Stockholm Syndrome. Classic.

People are so accustomed to the aggro and pain of Microsoft that the thought of using anything less sadistic is frightening.

They accept that their data will be lost, that their time will be wasted, that they have to do things over and over again, that malwarez will wreak havoc on their systems, data, finances and personal life. They accept that they will have to spend a ton of money on their computers, software, backups, etc., adn. They can't imagine a life without all that, let alone wish for one. Microsoft is Reality. It's The Way The World Is. It's the End All and Be All. It's Existence. Microsoft is God.

In another mailing the automatic random DotSigQuote generator selected this from the database and I thought it was apropos in this context, so here you are: The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. -- Friedrich Nietzsche I also find in the DotSigQuote database this: The same applies for other kinds of long-lasting low-level pain. [...] The body's response to being jabbed, pierced, and cut is to produce endorphins. [...] So here's my programme for breaking that cycle of dependency on Windows: get left arm tattooed with dragon motif, buy a crate of Jamaican Hot! Pepper Sauce, get nipples pierced. With any luck that will produce enough endorphins to make Windows completely redundant, and I can then upgrade to Linux and get on with things. -- Pieter Hintjens I think that's a bit extreme though. Mind you, I suspect most people that continue to use Windows do so because they suffer brain damage - they keep banging their head against the wall in frustration ... Perhaps the best marketing strategy for Linux would be to hand out free crash helmets, the kind that the hockey players _finally_ adopted, and then a month or so later when they are "in recovery" talk to them about using Linux. Have a good weekend :-) -- Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2011-12-13 at 03:25 -0500, Brian K. White wrote:

I used to say "You think that's just life with computers, but no, that's just life with Microsoft."

(It's still true, I just don't bother saying it any more. "If it's so bad then how come everyone uses it?")

Same reason people eat junk food, I guess. MS products make your computer fat. Change to the more healthy Linux diet. Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 6. Dezember 2011, 17:22:49 schrieb Duaine Hechler:

On 12/06/2011 04:45 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Duaine Hechler wrote:

...

My take on the solution - is windows will never go away until all "windows" software can run "natively" within Linux.

For most business users, Windows could go away tomorrow. I've been running my business entirely on Linux for more than five years.

Then why don't they ??

In my experience: 1. MS Office, 2. a mixture of IT employees that are used to MS and costs of change. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/10/2011 09:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Tuesday, 2011-12-06 at 23:45 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Duaine Hechler wrote:

...

My take on the solution - is windows will never go away until all "windows" software can run "natively" within Linux.

For most business users, Windows could go away tomorrow. I've been running my business entirely on Linux for more than five years.

I need at least one Windows machine because:

1) The TomTom navigator will not update from Linux. The software also fails in a VM. 2) I need to handle my Nokia cell-phone from Windows. Bluetooth support in Linux worked some days only, and the software to retrieve data is incomplete and imperfect. 3) My Kobo ebook will only update from Windows. There is an experimental Ubuntu software, so I may be forced to install Ubuntu on another partition or a VM. The devs said they do not intend to support more than one distro, and the chose Ubuntu.

And yes, it is chore I hate. Booting Windows, then wait for it to update itself, update the antivirus and whatever, and reboot it several times. Then updating my gadgets. Several hours.

There are things that simply do not work in Linux.

Also, I'm currently getting a 400 hours training paid by the goverment on network administration, and it is Windows only. If there is enough time, we may see some Linux at the end. The teacher is Linux friendly, but knows very little about it.

At least, the tax software suplied by the Spanish goverment is a Java app that runs in Linux too. Count your blessings.

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux)

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Carlos, great response and how true. Too bad we (collectively as individuals, groups and corporations) can't band together and demand developer and/or support for Linux - like there is for Mac's. Example, the bank I currently with - has my mortgage, bank accounts and credit cards - associated all together. Their online banking had several problems with Firefox (under Linux) and I called their support and read them a riot act, stating that if that don't fix this problem, I'm moving my accounts to another bank, And going to tell everyone I see to boycott this bank. Thankfully, they sad that they were aware of the problem - and is was some crap involving MS & IE & Java and that it would just take MORE time to figure out because of the changes MS keeps making to IE & Java. AND, of course, we all know that they really don't support (or don't want to support) Linux in any way. It was only a problem within Firefox & Java. Duaine -- Duaine Hechler Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ Tuning, Servicing& Rebuilding Reed Organ Society Member Florissant, MO 63034 (314) 838-5587 dahechler@att.net www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com -- Home& Business user of Linux - 11 years -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 2:45 AM, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

So the MS hacks will remain until enough people update to a new IE.

+1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/11/2011 02:03 PM, John Andersen wrote:

On 12/10/2011 7:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

3) My Kobo ebook will only update from Windows. There is an experimental Ubuntu software, so I may be forced to install Ubuntu on another partition or a VM. The devs said they do not intend to support more than one distro, and the chose Ubuntu. Are you talking about a software update to the Kobo, or just putting books on it.

For the latter, Calibre is the way to go.

For the Former, its probably like most readers, gets a few updates when new then, it is frozen and never gets another. I've used VMwarePlayer for that on my nook, but my nook is first edition, and will probably never see another upgrade.

Sorry if I've missed most of the conversation, but I need win functionality occasionally too. So every install where I might need it -- also gets a vbox install as well. It is so darn easy just to copy the .vdi over, there is really no reason to not go that route if you really need it. (yes you can go 32bit -> 64bit, it just takes more editing) Also .vdi expansion is now trivial in vbox. If you have a 8G install and then find out you need a 40G install, just: (1) Use VirtualBox to create a (vdi) new_hard_disk.vdi with your desired size. (2) VBoxManage clonehd old_hard_disk.vdi new_hard_disk.vdi --existing and then boot from new_hard_disk.vdi. If you want another ubuntu or arch install or whatever, just create another virtual machine in vbox (or your favorite virtual environment) Problem solved... Right now, the only offending apps I have are for the phone (apple [my next will run a more open OS]), and then tax and accounting software. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2011-12-11 at 12:03 -0800, John Andersen wrote:

On 12/10/2011 7:20 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

3) My Kobo ebook will only update from Windows. There is an experimental Ubuntu software, so I may be forced to install Ubuntu on another partition or a VM. The devs said they do not intend to support more than one distro, and the chose Ubuntu.

Are you talking about a software update to the Kobo, or just putting books on it.

Both.

For the latter, Calibre is the way to go.

I don't think so. I don't get to download any .epub file. I pay, then the file can be downloaded directly via wifi to the kobo, but this feature does not work with a hidden wifi network like mine. Or it downloads to the windows software they have, and not as a single file, but a lot of random named files. And this can be synced to the kobo via usb. If I got a single epub file, I think I could simply copy it via usb to the directory, as it mounts in Linux. But it is not like that, the book has to be downloaded by their software from the shop.

For the Former, its probably like most readers, gets a few updates when new then, it is frozen and never gets another. I've used VMwarePlayer for that on my nook, but my nook is first edition, and will probably never see another upgrade.

Currently, they are still doing upgrades on the kobo. Actually, there is a (beta?) linux softaware for it, but it can only be installed in Ubuntu and have no plans for other distros. http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82378&page=18 Any interest in Kobo Desktop for Linux? http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1353526&postcount=177 Properly releasing Kobo Desktop for Fedora http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1612367&postcount=204 openSUSE? http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1487342 - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk7/I3EACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VTQACfbx0KkQqAcXPCPYFnv0uHSyuy 0JEAnjOhpXaOaoOxVxl45PGQjwUIaNqr =Kt+U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-31 20:46, James Knott wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

but this feature does not work with a hidden wifi network like mine

Why doesn't it work? You can always manually enter the SSID. Even if you couldn't, what's to stop you from briefly unhiding your WiFi, while you set up the connection and then hiding it again?

A bug on the kobo. The connection works once, the first time I try, and then never more. I still haven't asked support about it. The trick of unhiding the ssid momentarily doesn't work either, I tried. When I hide the connection again it stops working. And, once configured for a hidden ssid, it also fails if I unhide it in the AP. Something stupid about it.

BTW, hiding WiFi does not provide much security, as your SSID is still visible every time someone connects to it.

Yes, but that is seldom. Many days nothing is connected via wifi. It just stops the curious. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk7/xDoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VeRQCfSXQ3Zt/a1a2ctJQ/w5E4iSvc 8dYAn2QF39fi5MV6SdbdTVrwaj8+4R58 =GJy8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/06/2011 10:45 AM, Matt Hayes wrote:

On 12/6/2011 10:37 AM, LinuxIsOne wrote:

...

Hi, I was just thinking that though openSUSE is more smooth and works better and has more clean architecture than Ubuntu but still why Ubuntu is more popular? Thanks.

The only answer I have for that is: Who cares? The popularity of a distribution does not make it 'better' than anything else. Honestly, people should use what they are comfortable with and works in their situation. For me, openSUSE fits that bill. In other situations, another distribution might fit. Use what works, not what is popular. -Matt

I agree, certain os's fit certain uses/applications. I have tried a hand full of Linux flavors, and still use 3 different one's at this time for different things. I moved to Unix/Linux after I used OS/2 for a few years ( loved OS/2, fit what I was doing at the time ). Mike.. -- Sent from my Suse Desktop -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

The answer to that question is pretty simple, canonical (the company behind ubuntu) has invested more money in advertising and marketing than in development or improving linux, hence has reached out more to the masses.

Ah I see. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

...

I think considering the scope of this particular list, this sort of conversation is more suitable for the offtopic list.

Really? Its far more on-topic than traffic signs.

+1 more if I could. -- Even the Magic 8 ball has an opinion on email clients: Outlook not so good. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org