feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

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Patrick Fehr

3 Oct 2005 3 Oct '05

13:25

Hi all This is my third day using SuSE, and I'm beginning to accomodate, but these first three days were NOT as one would wish to have his first days at a new distro. Funny thing: on my very first start of kde, an error appeared, it was even before kde could give mi it's "tipps on the start". Don't remember it, I was just laughing. http://www.opensuse.org/HCL/Laptops/IBM tried to convince me, that with the IBM Thinkpad T40p everything was "good to go". But that's just not true. Ethernet and Sound work out of the box, bluetooth works after starting the bluetooth protocol stack services. For the wireless card an Atheros which needs madwifi drivers, you have to get an external kernel source (nongpl), this is nowhere written on opensuse.org AND video is not working meaning: I can't play DVD's, the message is: no plugin for the MRL found. Power Management is partially working: The light get's darker when I pull the plug BUT the cpu clockspeed is always on 598MHz, which can only be a bad joke. It should be there ONLY if the cable is unplugged. (I have 1600MHz at maximum, but not with the power management under openSuSE) Well, I can't complain too hard, these green arrows are for Suse9.3 but anyway. Printing does not work on my HP Color Laser Jet 1500, which should be connected over lpr on another machine(attached on usb port). I also had to use a special ppd file and the foomatic driver in gentoo for that, but in openSuSE there seems to be the same issue: It's not working out of the box, you need something else (eg. from linuxprinting.org). Not working means: I send a printing command to the printer and it's lamp blinks for a moment and then does nothing and the printing command is deleted. Next point is that I can't get entrance or enlightenment to work. under gentoo I could easily change under /etc/rc.conf which displaymanger was used. Now openSuSE seems to have another way but does not tell me which one. I went over to runlevel services under yast, activated entrance but nothing moved. Btw what is earlykdm? kdm just with a cooler name? :) I also hate the image on grub.. *shrug keep it simple, the same goes to the kde background, why not just use the standard kde background? I don't need to see, that I'm on SuSE, because I set up SuSE and I know that there's a difference between kde and SuSE... I get the feeling that you use kde but nowhere write it's name on the startup... there isn't even the K StartMenu, it's that gecko smile... The positive parts: it's hell of a good feeling if openoffice installs within 3 minutes and it's as fast or even a bit faster starting up than under gentoo (where the installation(compilation) took the same time...just in days). The Community is nice, in the mailing list you get friendly answers within very few time. I also like the way, how installation of packages with the conflicts are done, mainly I really like Yast2. Hotplug works good, but i'd rather see the usbstick in media:/ folder instead of in /media/usbstick but that's a detail. The SuSE watcher seems to be for windows XP migrants :) but oh well, nice to have... apache2 works, all these processes just have to be activated first. So much to that. I am aware, that I'm using openSuSE10.0RC1 and thus should be aware that it's not bug free, but there are a little too many things not working for my gusto.. Best regards Patrick

Show replies by date

Daniel Bertolo

3 Oct 3 Oct

16:04

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

Hi Patrick Am Montag 03 Oktober 2005 15:25 schrieb Patrick Fehr:

...

Funny thing: on my very first start of kde, an error appeared, it was even before kde could give mi it's "tipps on the start". Don't remember it, I was just laughing.

Did not have that problem here. Don't know, what that could be.

...

http://www.opensuse.org/HCL/Laptops/IBM tried to convince me, that with the IBM Thinkpad T40p everything was "good to go". But that's just not true. Ethernet and Sound work out of the box, bluetooth works after starting the bluetooth protocol stack services.

For the wireless card an Atheros which needs madwifi drivers, you have to get an external kernel source (nongpl), this is nowhere written on opensuse.org

Then do so in the wiki.

...

AND video is not working meaning: I can't play DVD's, the message is: no plugin for the MRL found.

Video actually means "SaX detects the video card and configures the X server out-of-the-box". Playing DVDs legally under Linux is only possible with LinDVD or PowerDVD for Linux which actually is not available to end users. But this (and "I can not play MP3 files") has been discussed many times since I am on this list :). Just search the archive for "mp3" or "PowerDVD".

...

Power Management is partially working: The light get's darker when I pull the plug BUT the cpu clockspeed is always on 598MHz, which can only be a bad joke. It should be there ONLY if the cable is unplugged. (I have 1600MHz at maximum, but not with the power management under openSuSE)

This is the default setting which powers up the CPU to the maximum just when it's needed. Start OpenOffice.org while watching /proc/cpuinfo. You will see that the frequency rises as soon as the power is needed. If you want to run at full speed, change the active power management scheme (right click to the plug icon beside the clock in KDE -> "Set active scheme" -> Performance).

...

Printing does not work on my HP Color Laser Jet 1500, which should be connected over lpr on another machine(attached on usb port). I also had to use a special ppd file and the foomatic driver in gentoo for that, but in openSuSE there seems to be the same issue: It's not working out of the box, you need something else (eg. from linuxprinting.org). Not working means: I send a printing command to the printer and it's lamp blinks for a moment and then does nothing and the printing command is deleted.

There is a printer driver called "Color LaserJet Series PCL 6" and "Color LaserJet" in YaST. The latter one is a PostScript driver. If your printer supports PostScript, I would prefer that one (I actually could not find a HP color LaserJet 1500 on the hp website).

...

Next point is that I can't get entrance or enlightenment to work. under gentoo I could easily change under /etc/rc.conf which displaymanger was used. Now openSuSE seems to have another way but does not tell me which one. I went over to runlevel services under yast, activated entrance but nothing moved.

That's SUSE style. They configure everything in /etc/sysconfig. In YaST you will find an editor: "System" -> "Editor for /etc/sysconfig files".

...

Btw what is earlykdm? kdm just with a cooler name? :)

This starts kdm as the first service in runlevel 5. So, you can login while the rest of the services is loaded in the background. Seems as it would boot faster while actually, it does not.

...

I also hate the image on grub.. *shrug keep it simple, the same goes to the kde background, why not just use the standard kde background? I don't need to see, that I'm on SuSE, because I set up SuSE and I know that there's a difference between kde and SuSE... I get the feeling that you use kde but nowhere write it's name on the startup... there isn't even the K StartMenu, it's that gecko smile...

There is another artwork thread here. If you do not like the SUSE theme, use another or uninstall "kdebase3-suse".

...

The positive parts: it's hell of a good feeling if openoffice installs within 3 minutes and it's as fast or even a bit faster starting up than under gentoo (where the installation(compilation) took the same time...just in days). The Community is nice, in the mailing list you get friendly answers within very few time.

That's why I changed back (SuSE -> Gentoo -> SUSE).

...

I also like the way, how installation of packages with the conflicts are done, mainly I really like Yast2.

YaST is very good indeed. But I also really like apt for installing and updating RPMs.

...

Hotplug works good, but i'd rather see the usbstick in media:/ folder instead of in /media/usbstick but that's a detail.

You see it in both places. The stick is mounted to /media/usbstick by the hotplug daemon. And KDE shows all media under "media:/".

...

The SuSE watcher seems to be for windows XP migrants :) but oh well, nice to have...

Well I think it is quite useful not to check for updates manually. And remember that the SuSE watcher was here before Windows XP offered its service.

...

apache2 works, all these processes just have to be activated first.

Yes, of course. But before activating it, configuring should be done. You can do that in YaST, too (network services -> http). Yours, Dani

Patrick Fehr

17:24

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

Am Montag 03 Oktober 2005 18:04 schrieb Daniel Bertolo:

...

Hi Patrick

...

Then do so in the wiki.

Hi Daniel :) I will as soon as everything is running, which I need, then I'll write down what I had to make it run.

...

...
AND video is not working meaning: I can't play DVD's, the message is: no plugin for the MRL found.

Video actually means "SaX detects the video card and configures the X server out-of-the-box". Playing DVDs legally under Linux is only possible with LinDVD or PowerDVD for Linux which actually is not available to end users. But this (and "I can not play MP3 files") has been discussed many times since I am on this list :). Just search the archive for "mp3" or "PowerDVD".

Hm xine played dvd's in the past under gentoo, well I can play mp3's. But okay, I will take a look at PowerDVD and archived threads, true I missed that, I didn't think, there was a big issue with playing DVD's legally...

...

...
Power Management is partially working: The light get's darker when I pull the plug BUT the cpu clockspeed is always on 598MHz, which can only be a bad joke. It should be there ONLY if the cable is unplugged. (I have 1600MHz at maximum, but not with the power management under openSuSE)

This is the default setting which powers up the CPU to the maximum just when it's needed. Start OpenOffice.org while watching /proc/cpuinfo. You will see that the frequency rises as soon as the power is needed. If you want to run at full speed, change the active power management scheme (right click to the plug icon beside the clock in KDE -> "Set active scheme" -> Performance).

Indeed, that's handy.

...

...
Printing does not work on my HP Color Laser Jet 1500, which should be connected over lpr on another machine(attached on usb port). I also had to use a special ppd file and the foomatic driver in gentoo for that, but in openSuSE there seems to be the same issue: It's not working out of the box, you need something else (eg. from linuxprinting.org). Not working means: I send a printing command to the printer and it's lamp blinks for a moment and then does nothing and the printing command is deleted.

There is a printer driver called "Color LaserJet Series PCL 6" and "Color LaserJet" in YaST. The latter one is a PostScript driver. If your printer supports PostScript, I would prefer that one (I actually could not find a HP color LaserJet 1500 on the hp website).

I can't find it there, either, but it exists: http://www.linuxprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=HP-Color_LaserJet_1500

...

...
Next point is that I can't get entrance or enlightenment to work. under gentoo I could easily change under /etc/rc.conf which displaymanger was used. Now openSuSE seems to have another way but does not tell me which one. I went over to runlevel services under yast, activated entrance but nothing moved.

That's SUSE style. They configure everything in /etc/sysconfig. In YaST you will find an editor: "System" -> "Editor for /etc/sysconfig files".

Thank you is it normal, that when I go under Desktop/DisplayManager/DISPLAYMANAGER that there is no "entrance" in the dropdown? Just kdm, gdm, xdm, wdm, console.

...

There is another artwork thread here. If you do not like the SUSE theme, use another or uninstall "kdebase3-suse".

Probably no need for that for I will anyway switch to enlightenment, IF i manage to :)

...

...
Hotplug works good, but i'd rather see the usbstick in media:/ folder instead of in /media/usbstick but that's a detail. You see it in both places. The stick is mounted to /media/usbstick by the hotplug daemon. And KDE shows all media under "media:/".

No, that's not true, the usbstick does not show up under media:/ ! Of course I thought as well, it would, but it seems as if it automounts it under /media because if you see it under media:/ it's not mounted yet (but as said, I don't see it there).

...

...
The SuSE watcher seems to be for windows XP migrants :) but oh well, nice to have...

Well I think it is quite useful not to check for updates manually. And remember that the SuSE watcher was here before Windows XP offered its service.

How could I forget that, me!? A SuSE veteran? :)

...

...
apache2 works, all these processes just have to be activated first.

Yes, of course. But before activating it, configuring should be done. You can do that in YaST, too (network services -> http).

Of course, but the wizard there breaks after page 2 of 5 when I want to configure apache2. Without giving an error, the window just closes. had that now more than once, that the Yast Window just closed *shrug. Anywayhanks for your links and answers! best regards patrick

...

Yours, Dani

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Daniel Bertolo

4 Oct 4 Oct

05:57

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

Am Mo 03.10.2005 19:24 schrieb Patrick Fehr :

...

Am Montag 03 Oktober 2005 18:04 schrieb Daniel Bertolo: Hm xine played dvd's in the past under gentoo, well I can play mp3's. But okay, I will take a look at PowerDVD and archived threads, true I missed that, I didn't think, there was a big issue with playing DVD's legally...

Playing unencrypted DVDs is legal. But in order to play encrypted DVDs you need DeCSS which is supported by xine. But actually this is illegal in most countries. So you have to add it on your own. I proposed in an earlier post that Novell shall sell PowerDVD for Linux in an online store for some bucks. I would buy it.

...

I can't find it there, either, but it exists:

http://www.linuxprinting.org/show_printer.cgi?recnum=HP-Color_LaserJet_1500

That is probably why they do not sell it anymore :). It does not understand PostScript nor does it work with HP PCL driver. I would not even had considered to buy such a printer. Sorry, just my opinion. I guess, it was one of the cheapest color laser printers available. Now, you know why. But nevertheless, ask HP for support. Usually they support Linux with their hardware. Especially the printer department offers drivers for most of their printers (including a toolbox to maintain inkjet printers).

...

is it normal, that when I go under Desktop/DisplayManager/DISPLAYMANAGER that there is no "entrance" in the dropdown? Just kdm, gdm, xdm, wdm, console.

Well, I could not get Entrance work at boot (starting it manually works, of course). Perhaps, it does if you choose console here and start the entrance init script at boot time. Else you could start E17 from kdm, too. Just choose it as your session in the bottom left corner.

...

...
You see it in both places. The stick is mounted to /media/usbstick by the hotplug daemon. And KDE shows all media under "media:/".

No, that's not true, the usbstick does not show up under media:/ ! Of course I thought as well, it would, but it seems as if it automounts it under /media because if you see it under media:/ it's not mounted yet (but as said, I don't see it there).

Oh, yes. It does show in both places. Wann have a screenshot: http://www.bertolo.ch/media.png (/media/ left, media:/ right). I plugged in the stick which opened konqueror and showed /media/USB_MEMORY. Now, I added media:/ in the right part of the window and did a screenshot.

...

Of course, but the wizard there breaks after page 2 of 5 when I want to configure apache2. Without giving an error, the window just closes. had that now more than once, that the Yast Window just closed *shrug.

Did not try it out. But you see that it should work. If it does not, open a bug track: http://www.opensuse.org/Submit_a_bug. Dani -- "Sollen sich auch alle schämen, die gedankenlos sich der Wunder der Wissenschaft und Technik bedienen und nicht mehr davon geistig erfasst haben, als die Kuh von der Botanik der Pflanzen, die sie mit Wohlbehagen frisst." -- Albert Einstein

houghi

06:21

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 07:57:26AM +0200, Daniel Bertolo wrote:

...

Playing unencrypted DVDs is legal. But in order to play encrypted DVDs you need DeCSS which is supported by xine. But actually this is illegal in most countries. So you have to add it on your own. I proposed in an earlier post that Novell shall sell PowerDVD for Linux in an online store for some bucks. I would buy it.

If it is buyable outside of the standard boxed set, I would rather see it to be buyable for all Linux users. The only links I found were to Cyberlink and they do not sell the Linux version to individuals. The Windows version could give you an idea how much such a thing would cost. It would cost USD39.95 http://www.gocyberlink.com/multi/cyberstore/cyberstore.jsp Now all you need to have is something like libdvdcss2 and then 40 bucks is a bit steep. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

Marcus Meissner

06:37

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:21:54AM +0200, houghi wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 07:57:26AM +0200, Daniel Bertolo wrote:

...
Playing unencrypted DVDs is legal. But in order to play encrypted DVDs you need DeCSS which is supported by xine. But actually this is illegal in most countries. So you have to add it on your own. I proposed in an earlier post that Novell shall sell PowerDVD for Linux in an online store for some bucks. I would buy it.

If it is buyable outside of the standard boxed set, I would rather see it to be buyable for all Linux users. The only links I found were to Cyberlink and they do not sell the Linux version to individuals.

The problem is that they have to integrate tightly with the shipping X Server to fulfill the mandatory copy protection mechanisms (macrovision). This makes shipping a generic DVD player for Linux very difficult. Ciao, Marcus

houghi

06:55

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:37:35AM +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

The problem is that they have to integrate tightly with the shipping X Server to fulfill the mandatory copy protection mechanisms (macrovision). This makes shipping a generic DVD player for Linux very difficult.

Ah, so if there would be a legal version of libdvdcss2, that would cause a problem? Somehow I do not think so. To build an installer around that should not be too hard, be it deb, rpm, tgz or even a binary. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

Marcus Meissner

07:08

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:55:20AM +0200, houghi wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:37:35AM +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...
The problem is that they have to integrate tightly with the shipping X Server to fulfill the mandatory copy protection mechanisms (macrovision). This makes shipping a generic DVD player for Linux very difficult.

Ah, so if there would be a legal version of libdvdcss2, that would cause a problem? Somehow I do not think so. To build an installer around that should not be too hard, be it deb, rpm, tgz or even a binary.

Well, can you guarantee that this will always enable Macrovision protection for Video Out of your graphics card? If not, you are not conforming and do not have a legal DVD player. Ciao, Marcus

Martin Sommer

07:45

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:55:20AM +0200, houghi wrote:

...
On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:37:35AM +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...
The problem is that they have to integrate tightly with the shipping X Server to fulfill the mandatory copy protection mechanisms (macrovision). This makes shipping a generic DVD player for Linux very difficult.

Ah, so if there would be a legal version of libdvdcss2, that would cause a problem? Somehow I do not think so. To build an installer around that should not be too hard, be it deb, rpm, tgz or even a binary.

Well, can you guarantee that this will always enable Macrovision protection for Video Out of your graphics card?

If not, you are not conforming and do not have a legal DVD player.

That's right and as far as I heard from the X guys, it's simply impossible to get this done for all available graphics cards. I talked many times to both Intervideo and Cyberlink. They have no plans to release a Linux version of the DVD players for the retail. Another comment to an earlier statement of this thread: yes, libdvdcss is illegal in most countries. Therefore we cannot implement an open source Linux DVD player. But playing unencrypted DVDs is legal but a little boring because almost no commercial movie comes on an unencrypted DVD. Further even if it's generally legal to play them, normally movies use dolby and mpeg2 as sound and video codecs. And we cannot decode these formats without paying royalties to Dolby and mpegla. (For each copy of course). That's the reason why we SUSE Linux plays neither encrypted nor unencrypted movie DVDs. Martin -- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

houghi

11:57

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 09:08:01AM +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:55:20AM +0200, houghi wrote:

...
On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:37:35AM +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...
The problem is that they have to integrate tightly with the shipping X Server to fulfill the mandatory copy protection mechanisms (macrovision). This makes shipping a generic DVD player for Linux very difficult.

Ah, so if there would be a legal version of libdvdcss2, that would cause a problem? Somehow I do not think so. To build an installer around that should not be too hard, be it deb, rpm, tgz or even a binary.

Well, can you guarantee that this will always enable Macrovision protection for Video Out of your graphics card?

If not, you are not conforming and do not have a legal DVD player.

The smae goes for the XP version. I see my VGA cable as video out. The same goes for an embedded system, wich has some way of getting the zeros and ones from the DVD to the screen. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

Daniel Bertolo

12:19

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

Am Di 04.10.2005 09:08 schrieb Marcus Meissner :

...

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:55:20AM +0200, houghi wrote:

...
Ah, so if there would be a legal version of libdvdcss2, that would cause a problem? Somehow I do not think so. To build an installer around that should not be too hard, be it deb, rpm, tgz or even a binary.

Well, can you guarantee that this will always enable Macrovision protection for Video Out of your graphics card?

What does this mean exactly? I read a bit about Macrovision protection. But how shall this be implemented? If I understood Wikipedia correctly, this would mean that what I am doing is illegal, too: Playstation2 (DVD player) -> TV Card (SVIDEO) -> TVtime -> Nvidia binary driver -> TVout (SVIDEO) -> Beamer If that is illegal because I could capture the video stream and TVtime would not add that Macrovision stuff to my video file, that would mean that any TV application is illegal which is able to capture a stream on SVIDEO or Composite. So, now my question: What exactly has to be done in order to build a legal DVD player for Linux? Dani

Martin Sommer

12:40

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Daniel Bertolo wrote:

...

[...]

If that is illegal because I could capture the video stream and TVtime would not add that Macrovision stuff to my video file, that would mean that any TV application is illegal which is able to capture a stream on SVIDEO or Composite.

So, now my question: What exactly has to be done in order to build a legal DVD player for Linux?

Not much: You need only: - convince all developers of the xine project (>30) that they change the xine license from GPL to LGPL or BSD (use alternatively the mplayer or the ogle project or write one from scratch)) to be able to link against the proprietary CSS stuff - sign a contract with the DVD CCA to get the official CSS technology - pay 19,000 USD a year to DVD CCA - implement the CSS technology into xine - talk to all major graphics card vendors and convince them to support Linux and provide interfaces for the use of macrovision in Linuxplayers - implement it into the player - sign a contract with Dolby for decoding dolby 2 channel and/or 6 channel sound - pay approx. 0.8 - 1.50 USD per sold copy of the program to Dolby (depends on sound quality and the number of sold copies) - sign a contract with MPEGLA for decoding mpeg2 video format - pay 2.50 USD per sold copy to MPEGLA (independent from numbers) That's all, let's begin! ;-) -- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

Marcus Cooper

12:52

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On 04/10/05, Martin Sommer wrote:

...

Not much: You need only:

- convince all developers of the xine project (>30) that they change the xine license from GPL to LGPL or BSD (use alternatively the mplayer or the ogle project or write one from scratch)) to be able to link against the proprietary CSS stuff - sign a contract with the DVD CCA to get the official CSS technology - pay 19,000 USD a year to DVD CCA - implement the CSS technology into xine - talk to all major graphics card vendors and convince them to support Linux and provide interfaces for the use of macrovision in Linuxplayers - implement it into the player - sign a contract with Dolby for decoding dolby 2 channel and/or 6 channel sound - pay approx. 0.8 - 1.50 USD per sold copy of the program to Dolby (depends on sound quality and the number of sold copies) - sign a contract with MPEGLA for decoding mpeg2 video format - pay 2.50 USD per sold copy to MPEGLA (independent from numbers)

That's all, let's begin! ;-)

Oh why didn't you say I've already done that. :) Think Martin's repley might need to go up on the Wiki in responce to any questions about it in the future. And this is coming from someone who hasn't worked out how to send to the group from gmail. Sorry Martin. Have fun Marcus -- Photos : www.flickr.com/photos/marcusc Blog : marcusbrain.blogspot.com `The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.' HST

houghi

12:59

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 02:40:59PM +0200, Martin Sommer wrote:

...

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Daniel Bertolo wrote:

...
[...]

If that is illegal because I could capture the video stream and TVtime would not add that Macrovision stuff to my video file, that would mean that any TV application is illegal which is able to capture a stream on SVIDEO or Composite.

So, now my question: What exactly has to be done in order to build a legal DVD player for Linux?

Not much: You need only:

- convince all developers of the xine project (>30) that they change the xine license from GPL to LGPL or BSD (use alternatively the mplayer or the ogle project or write one from scratch)) to be able to link against the proprietary CSS stuff

Won't it be possible to write a binary that others can interact with? e.g. I make a closed source libdvdcss2? About the prices, I have seen DVD players on DVD's. Do they all pay that much? houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

Martin Sommer

12:59

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, houghi wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 02:40:59PM +0200, Martin Sommer wrote:

...
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Daniel Bertolo wrote:

...
[...]

If that is illegal because I could capture the video stream and TVtime would not add that Macrovision stuff to my video file, that would mean that any TV application is illegal which is able to capture a stream on SVIDEO or Composite.

So, now my question: What exactly has to be done in order to build a legal DVD player for Linux?

Not much: You need only:

- convince all developers of the xine project (>30) that they change the xine license from GPL to LGPL or BSD (use alternatively the mplayer or the ogle project or write one from scratch)) to be able to link against the proprietary CSS stuff

Won't it be possible to write a binary that others can interact with? e.g. I make a closed source libdvdcss2?

About the prices, I have seen DVD players on DVD's. Do they all pay that much?

If they want to be completely legal: yes. But I doubt that each DVD player which is available, is completely legal. PowerDVD and WinDVD definitely are as you can imagine. -- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

Daniel Bertolo

13:42

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

Am Di 04.10.2005 14:40 schrieb Martin Sommer :

...

Not much: You need only:

- convince all developers of the xine project (>30) that they change the xine license from GPL to LGPL or BSD (use alternatively the mplayer or the ogle project or write one from scratch)) to be able to link against the proprietary CSS stuff - sign a contract with the DVD CCA to get the official CSS technology - pay 19,000 USD a year to DVD CCA - implement the CSS technology into xine - talk to all major graphics card vendors and convince them to support Linux and provide interfaces for the use of macrovision in Linuxplayers - implement it into the player - sign a contract with Dolby for decoding dolby 2 channel and/or 6 channel sound - pay approx. 0.8 - 1.50 USD per sold copy of the program to Dolby (depends on sound quality and the number of sold copies) - sign a contract with MPEGLA for decoding mpeg2 video format - pay 2.50 USD per sold copy to MPEGLA (independent from numbers)

And that is too hard for Novell? But Linspire can handle it: http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_details.php?product_id=11804 The download of that "app" is just 0.04MB in size. And it is declared as "closed source". So, it might be just the library. What the price is concerned, I suggested more than once on the list, that Novell should sell it seperatly online. Just a quick calc for the price: Estimate to sell 10'000 copies: - 1.90 USD to DVD CCA - 1.50 USD to Dolby - 2.50 USD to MPEGLA - 5.00 USD to Novell (engineering) Total cost for Novell: USD 10.90 per copy. Sell it for USD 39.99. Or the other way around: Sell it for USD 39.99. Fixed cost: - 19'000 USD to DVD CCA - 50'000 USD to Novell (engineering) Variable cost: - 1.50 USD to Dolby - 2.50 USD to MPEGLA Like that, Novell must sell approximately 2'000 copies in order to be at break even. That sounds possible to me. The engineering cost I estimated is either for adopting LinDVD or PowerDVD in order to work with SuSE Linux, or to find a solution to get it legally work with xine or Mplayer. If that solution just works with the binary drivers from ATI and Nvidia that would even be a beginning. Dani

Martin Sommer

14:00

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Daniel Bertolo wrote:

...

[...] And that is too hard for Novell? But Linspire can handle it:

http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_details.php?product_id=11804

The download of that "app" is just 0.04MB in size. And it is declared as "closed source". So, it might be just the library.

Only one comment: Take a look at Linspire and see which application they use to play DVD and try also to find out how they descramble CSS and you will have many more questions than answers at the end.

...

[...]

-- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

Daniel Bertolo

14:17

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

Am Di 04.10.2005 16:00 schrieb Martin Sommer :

...

Only one comment: Take a look at Linspire and see which application they use to play DVD and try also to find out how they descramble CSS and you will have many more questions than answers at the end.

Do they really use libdvdcss2? So, why would they sell it as literally legal in the US? They are not that stupid, are they? They say that it is xine with a commercially licensed addition. But anyway, I think that Novell should be able to get such a project up and running. They could even make money with it. You already confinced me that going the xine/mplayer way is hard. But what about getting PowerDVD or LinDVD for Linux and make it work with the ATI and Nvidia drivers. Did these two graphic card vendors implement Macrovision into their Linux driver? It is clearly far from OSS, but I would be able to watch DVDs legally. Dani

Andreas Girardet

18:22

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

...

...
...
On Wed, Oct 5, 2005 at 1:40 am, in message , msommer@suse.de wrote: On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Daniel Bertolo wrote:

...
[...]

If that is illegal because I could capture the video stream and TVtime would not add that Macrovision stuff to my video file, that would mean that any TV application is illegal which is able to capture a stream on SVIDEO or Composite.

So, now my question: What exactly has to be done in order to build a legal DVD player for Linux?

Not much: You need only:

- convince all developers of the xine project (>30) that they change the xine license from GPL to LGPL or BSD (use alternatively the mplayer or the ogle project or write one from scratch)) to be able to link against the proprietary CSS stuff - sign a contract with the DVD CCA to get the official CSS technology - pay 19,000 USD a year to DVD CCA - implement the CSS technology into xine - talk to all major graphics card vendors and convince them to support Linux and provide interfaces for the use of macrovision in Linuxplayers - implement it into the player - sign a contract with Dolby for decoding dolby 2 channel and/or 6 channel sound - pay approx. 0.8 - 1.50 USD per sold copy of the program to Dolby

...

(depends on sound quality and the number of sold copies) - sign a contract with MPEGLA for decoding mpeg2 video format - pay 2.50 USD per sold copy to MPEGLA (independent from numbers)

That's all, let's begin! ;- )

Yes please ;) would that not be great if we could have all that in SUSE .... Turbolinux is not afraid of doing it ... Andreas

Martin Sommer

5 Oct 5 Oct

07:45

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Andreas Girardet wrote:

...

...
[..] That's all, let's begin! ;- )

Yes please ;) would that not be great if we could have all that in SUSE ....

Turbolinux is not afraid of doing it ...

Turbolinux did nothing of these different points. They only signed a contract with Cyberlink to get PowerDVD for Linux. And they simply ignore the legal issue with macrovision which Novell will not an cannot ignore. M. -- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

Allen

17:50

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

On Wed, Oct 05, 2005 at 09:45:17AM +0200, Martin Sommer wrote:

...

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Andreas Girardet wrote:

...
...
[..] That's all, let's begin! ;- )

Yes please ;) would that not be great if we could have all that in SUSE ....

Turbolinux is not afraid of doing it ...

Turbolinux did nothing of these different points. They only signed a contract with Cyberlink to get PowerDVD for Linux. And they simply ignore the legal issue with macrovision which Novell will not an cannot ignore.

LOL, someone actually compared SUSE to Turbo Linux over this?? lol. That's light comparing a BMW (Say it with me guys, Bay Em Vay) to a Pinto. ;)

...

M.

-Allen.

...

-- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

...

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Pascal Bleser

4 Oct 4 Oct

07:54

New subject: libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 houghi wrote:

...

...
The problem is that they have to integrate tightly with the shipping X Server to fulfill the mandatory copy protection mechanisms (macrovision). This makes shipping a generic DVD player for Linux very difficult. Ah, so if there would be a legal version of libdvdcss2, that would cause a

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:37:35AM +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote: problem? Somehow I do not think so.

Be careful to distinguish between copyright and patents. That's probably what's the most misleading with libdvdcss2. - From the copyright aspect, there's no problem whatsoever, as libdvdcss2, mad and lame are (L)GPL (or BSD or whatever, they're OpenSource). So, from that point, you might very well package it and distribute it according to their license (=(L)GPL). The problem is with patents and licenses that apply to the underlying technologies. For MP3, the issue is with the patent license: as already discussed often on this list, a few businesses (Thompson and Frauenhofer, amongst others) hold patents on various parts of the MP3 technology. Yes, it's even that bad: it's not just one company having the patents, it's several of them. Some of them specify that you MAY NOT distribute implementations of their technology without buying patent licenses on them. That is the reason why mad (an MP3 decoding library) is (L)GPL, but may not be distributed for free as part of SUSE Linux OSS. The "commercial" (boxed) SUSE Linux version may do so because Novell is a licensee and pays a distribution fee to the patent holders. Of course, that license fee is included in the price of the boxed set. It's even worse for e.g. lame (an MP3 encoding library), as their patent [license] restrictions on MP3 encoders are very harsh. Maybe now you realize with Ogg/Vorbis is so important and why you should definately use Ogg/Vorbis (or Theora) when you rip and encode your music or movie collection. Ogg/Vorbis is not only Free software, it's also _free from patents_: "Ogg Vorbis is a completely open, patent-free, professional audio encoding and streaming technology with all the benefits of Open Source." (http://www.vorbis.com/) Also read the 3 paragraphs on their website, starting here: http://www.vorbis.com/faq/#com With libdvdcss2, it's even more complicated, as it might infringe patents, depending on the country you live in (and its laws). Given how aggressive the music and movie industry is at the moment, that means you're potentially a legal target for them, pretty much anywhere in the world. And it doesn't even matter if you're right or wrong, patents are basically cash machines. So, to summarize: libdvdcss2 is (L)GPL, but infringes patents because they break the conditions by which you are allowed to play encrypted DVDs. As a side note: never, ever use the term "intellectual property". It doesn't mean a thing. That's a PR term (probably invented by SCO ;)) that very vaguely refers to copyright and patents, which are two totally different things. "Intellectual property" is not a term that has any "legal" meaning. So make sure to use the correct terms "copyright" and "patents", appropriately.

...

To build an installer around that should not be too hard, be it deb, rpm, tgz or even a binary.

Well, I'm afraid that even providing an installer could get you into trouble. Depending on the country you live in and the country where your installer is hosted, it can. As an example: recently, in Germany, Heise (the largest IT news website and magazine publisher in Germany) has lost in court because they were publishing a *hyperlink* to a DeCSS2-capable DVD ripper software (for Windows). They're appealing, but who knows how this will end. It's a sick, sick world, and I'm afraid we ain't seen nothing yet. Hope this clarifies the MP3 and DeCSS2 shmoo once for all. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v ===> FOSDEM 2006 -- February 2006 in Brussels <=== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDQjU6r3NMWliFcXcRAofJAKCivAv1qq5YHKlj9CjZa0PpdosXOQCfYjuo pt+pEXGITjSVsZsGuqfI2Pc= =0yBK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

eddieleprince

08:54

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tuesday 04 October 2005 08:54, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

houghi wrote:

...
On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 08:37:35AM +0200, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...
The problem is that they have to integrate tightly with the shipping X Server to fulfill the mandatory copy protection mechanisms (macrovision). This makes shipping a generic DVD player for Linux very difficult.

Ah, so if there would be a legal version of libdvdcss2, that would cause a problem? Somehow I do not think so.

Be careful to distinguish between copyright and patents. That's probably what's the most misleading with libdvdcss2.

From the copyright aspect, there's no problem whatsoever, as libdvdcss2, mad and lame are (L)GPL (or BSD or whatever, they're OpenSource). So, from that point, you might very well package it and distribute it according to their license (=(L)GPL).

The problem is with patents and licenses that apply to the underlying technologies.

For MP3, the issue is with the patent license: as already discussed often on this list, a few businesses (Thompson and Frauenhofer, amongst others) hold patents on various parts of the MP3 technology. Yes, it's even that bad: it's not just one company having the patents, it's several of them.

Some of them specify that you MAY NOT distribute implementations of their technology without buying patent licenses on them. That is the reason why mad (an MP3 decoding library) is (L)GPL, but may not be distributed for free as part of SUSE Linux OSS. The "commercial" (boxed) SUSE Linux version may do so because Novell is a licensee and pays a distribution fee to the patent holders. Of course, that license fee is included in the price of the boxed set. It's even worse for e.g. lame (an MP3 encoding library), as their patent [license] restrictions on MP3 encoders are very harsh.

Maybe now you realize with Ogg/Vorbis is so important and why you should definately use Ogg/Vorbis (or Theora) when you rip and encode your music or movie collection. Ogg/Vorbis is not only Free software, it's also _free from patents_: "Ogg Vorbis is a completely open, patent-free, professional audio encoding and streaming technology with all the benefits of Open Source." (http://www.vorbis.com/) Also read the 3 paragraphs on their website, starting here: http://www.vorbis.com/faq/#com

With libdvdcss2, it's even more complicated, as it might infringe patents, depending on the country you live in (and its laws). Given how aggressive the music and movie industry is at the moment, that means you're potentially a legal target for them, pretty much anywhere in the world. And it doesn't even matter if you're right or wrong, patents are basically cash machines.

So, to summarize: libdvdcss2 is (L)GPL, but infringes patents because they break the conditions by which you are allowed to play encrypted DVDs.

As a side note: never, ever use the term "intellectual property". It doesn't mean a thing. That's a PR term (probably invented by SCO ;)) that very vaguely refers to copyright and patents, which are two totally different things. "Intellectual property" is not a term that has any "legal" meaning. So make sure to use the correct terms "copyright" and "patents", appropriately.

...
To build an installer around that should not be too hard, be it deb, rpm, tgz or even a binary.

Well, I'm afraid that even providing an installer could get you into trouble. Depending on the country you live in and the country where your installer is hosted, it can. As an example: recently, in Germany, Heise (the largest IT news website and magazine publisher in Germany) has lost in court because they were publishing a *hyperlink* to a DeCSS2-capable DVD ripper software (for Windows). They're appealing, but who knows how this will end.

It's a sick, sick world, and I'm afraid we ain't seen nothing yet.

Hope this clarifies the MP3 and DeCSS2 shmoo once for all.

cheers

Thanks Pascal, I found that very interesting and informative.

radoeka

08:59

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 09:54:10AM +0100, eddieleprince wrote:

...

Thanks Pascal,

I found that very interesting and informative.

Indeed, would be could to store on the wiki. -- RIchard

Carl Hartung

15:44

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tuesday 04 October 2005 04:54, eddieleprince wrote: <snip>

...

Thanks Pascal,

I found that very interesting and informative.

I concur. Pascal is *always* interesting and informative... if not sometimes hard to keep up with :-) Thanks, Pascal!

Andreas Girardet

18:42

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

...

...
...
On Wed, Oct 5, 2005 at 4:44 am, in message <200510041144.32590.suselinux@cehartung.com>, suselinux@cehartung.com wrote: On Tuesday 04 October 2005 04:54, eddieleprince wrote: <snip> Thanks Pascal,

I found that very interesting and informative.

I concur. Pascal is *always* interesting and informative... if not sometimes hard to keep up with :- )

Thanks, Pascal!

I agree 100%. Pascal deserves the name "guru" like no one else ;) .... Thanks Pascal from my end too. Your THA MAN! This discussion is indeed needed and fruitful, especially if Dr. Sommer can push our product into having all that codec stuff legally in all countries as opposed to the current situation, which honestly is nearly unbearable. I knew there is a way ..... there is always a way. Please Dr. Sommer do it! Andreas

Martin Sommer

5 Oct 5 Oct

07:40

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Andreas Girardet wrote:

...

...
...
...
On Wed, Oct 5, 2005 at 4:44 am, in message <200510041144.32590.suselinux@cehartung.com>, suselinux@cehartung.com wrote: On Tuesday 04 October 2005 04:54, eddieleprince wrote: <snip> Thanks Pascal,

I found that very interesting and informative.

I concur. Pascal is *always* interesting and informative... if not sometimes hard to keep up with :- )

Thanks, Pascal!

I agree 100%. Pascal deserves the name "guru" like no one else ;) ....

Thanks Pascal from my end too. Your THA MAN!

This discussion is indeed needed and fruitful, especially if Dr. Sommer can push our product into having all that codec stuff legally in all countries as opposed to the current situation, which honestly is nearly unbearable. I knew there is a way ..... there is always a way.

Please Dr. Sommer do it!

I'll do my best but it's not really easy. :) -- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

Andreas Simon

4 Oct 4 Oct

09:31

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tuesday 04 October 2005 09:54, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

So, to summarize: libdvdcss2 is (L)GPL, but infringes patents because they break the conditions by which you are allowed to play encrypted DVDs.

Apart from any patents libdvdcss2 circumvents a copy-protection of music data media. The ownership, distribution, or usage of such copy-protection circumventions is also illegal in some countries due to the law on copyright (You already made the example of the german c't magazine which got sued because of a mere hyperlink to such a circumvention). Cheers, Andreas

Martin Sommer

09:41

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Andreas Simon wrote:

...

On Tuesday 04 October 2005 09:54, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
So, to summarize: libdvdcss2 is (L)GPL, but infringes patents because they break the conditions by which you are allowed to play encrypted DVDs.

Apart from any patents libdvdcss2 circumvents a copy-protection of music data media. The ownership, distribution, or usage of such copy-protection circumventions is also illegal in some countries due to the law on copyright (You already made the example of the german c't magazine which got sued because of a mere hyperlink to such a circumvention).

Heise got sued because in the new copyright law of Germany, not only ownership, distribution and usage are forbidden but even also to provide any information about how one can circumvent a copy-protection. And distributing a link is such an information. -- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

Marcus Cooper

09:54

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On 04/10/05, Martin Sommer wrote:

...

Heise got sued because in the new copyright law of Germany, not only ownership, distribution and usage are forbidden but even also to provide any information about how one can circumvent a copy-protection. And distributing a link is such an information.

Without slagging off anyone's country and their laws (God knows the UK have such a great history on stupid laws) that is a really scary law. Doesn't that effectively mean that any discussion of reverse enginneering is illegal in Germany. I know that's not what the law is trying to do but it looks like that is a very likely side effect. have fun Marcus -- Photos : www.flickr.com/photos/marcusc Blog : marcusbrain.blogspot.com `The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.' HST

Martin Sommer

09:58

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Marcus Cooper wrote:

...

On 04/10/05, Martin Sommer wrote:

...
Heise got sued because in the new copyright law of Germany, not only ownership, distribution and usage are forbidden but even also to provide any information about how one can circumvent a copy-protection. And distributing a link is such an information.

Without slagging off anyone's country and their laws (God knows the UK have such a great history on stupid laws) that is a really scary law.

Indeed! It is.

...

Doesn't that effectively mean that any discussion of reverse enginneering is illegal in Germany. I know that's not what the law is trying to do but it looks like that is a very likely side effect.

I don't know but I guess that compiling any sources into binary code is not "copy protection" in the sense of these laws. Therefore many companies who distribute proprietary software, protect it by putting paragraphs into the the EULAs which forbid explicitely reverse engineering. -- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

Fred A. Miller

12:54

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tuesday 04 October 2005 5:54 am, Marcus Cooper wrote: [snip]

...

Without slagging off anyone's country and their laws (God knows the UK have such a great history on stupid laws) that is a really scary law. Doesn't that effectively mean that any discussion of reverse enginneering is illegal in Germany. I know that's not what the law is trying to do but it looks like that is a very likely side effect.

Until the buying public gets their belly full of this crap, and I don't know that they will - but SHOULD, things will only get worse! It's one of the ways MickySoft is attacking Linux and open source through "the back door." Supporting HD DVD instead of Blue Ray is just another example. They've already started the lie and FUD machinery about the differences. What WOULD be effective, and I wish it was doable, is to have a large enough boycott of ALL encrypted DVDs world wide long enough so that it hits ALL producers HARD in the pocketbook!! It's the only way I can think of to get their attention. Fred -- Planet Earth - a subsidiary of Microsoft. We have no bugs in our software, Never! We do have undocumented added features, that you will find amusing, at no added cost to you, at this time.

Pascal Bleser

09:59

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Sommer wrote:

...

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, Andreas Simon wrote:

...
On Tuesday 04 October 2005 09:54, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
So, to summarize: libdvdcss2 is (L)GPL, but infringes patents because they break the conditions by which you are allowed to play encrypted DVDs. Apart from any patents libdvdcss2 circumvents a copy-protection of music data media. The ownership, distribution, or usage of such copy-protection circumventions is also illegal in some countries due to the law on copyright (You already made the example of the german c't magazine which got sued because of a mere hyperlink to such a circumvention).

Heise got sued because in the new copyright law of Germany, not only ownership, distribution and usage are forbidden but even also to provide any information about how one can circumvent a copy-protection. And distributing a link is such an information.

Yep. This is sick indeed but.. it could also mean, by extent, that providing information on the openSUSE wiki on how to install such software would be illegal (at least in Germany). And probably also to write an installer that grabs libdvdcss2 from source and builds it. To everyone: so please, keep such potential issues in mind when you contribute documentation on the openSUSE wiki. e.g. writing a page that explains how to enable all the MP3 and similar stuff is to be thought about with great care. This is bad for end-users but... blame the industry and the possibly stupid laws, not us. Use Ogg/Vorbis and Theora. That MP3 and DVD topic is an always recurring one, as well on this list as on the #opensuse IRC channel, and you always get that "SUSE sucks it doesn't ship MP3, but other distros do" (which is not true, btw) in your face, again and again explaining the same stuff all over, mostly to people who are not much aware (to say the least) of what copyrights, patents and patent licenses really mean. Could a few of us write up a page on the openSUSE wiki to explain the situation, once for all ? I'm not really an expert on that topic but I have been sitting in a few talks about it ;), nevertheless not sufficient to write up a bullet-proof explanation. Maybe we could start with my previous mail in this thread, and compliment it with the useful additions of Andreas and Martin, and have it cross-read by a few other people who do have expertise in that area (possible from Novell as well). cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v ===> FOSDEM 2006 -- February 2006 in Brussels <=== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDQlKcr3NMWliFcXcRApT/AKCRbg1aQ9gJ27hTw2kmPLnHkCgaVQCffRVX 3aCI3SKrX1qUhtOdA6p9uMw= =bBso -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

jdd

10:24

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo

Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Yep. This is sick indeed but.. it could also mean, by extent, that providing information on the openSUSE wiki on how to install such software would be illegal (at least in Germany). And probably also to write an installer that grabs libdvdcss2 from source and builds it.

probably right.

...

To everyone: so please, keep such potential issues in mind when you contribute documentation on the openSUSE wiki. e.g. writing a page that explains how to enable all the MP3 and similar stuff is to be thought about with great care.

could somebody write a page on how to open an account on a server in liberal country (free is available)? _this_ should be legal. But of course, after that, only private mail could do th trick anyway if governments want to sue any mailing-list archive or ask google to censor that it may be as difficult as preventing spam :-) F*!*n*d MP*tree :-) jdd -- pour m'écrire, aller sur: http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.net http://arvamip.free.fr

Jukka

11:23

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo

2005/10/4, jdd :

...

Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
Yep. This is sick indeed but.. it could also mean, by extent, that providing information on the openSUSE wiki on how to install such software would be illegal (at least in Germany). And probably also to write an installer that grabs libdvdcss2 from source and builds it.

probably right.

...
To everyone: so please, keep such potential issues in mind when you contribute documentation on the openSUSE wiki. e.g. writing a page that explains how to enable all the MP3 and similar stuff is to be thought about with great care.

could somebody write a page on how to open an account on a server in liberal country (free is available)?

_this_ should be legal. But of course, after that, only private mail could do th trick

anyway if governments want to sue any mailing-list archive or ask google to censor that it may be as difficult as preventing spam :-)

F*!*n*d MP*tree

:-)

jdd

If I have once bought a boxed version of Suse (which has licenced codecs included), is it legal and possibe to re-use codecs later with updated downloadable releases? -Jukka

Peter Flodin

14:23

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo

On 04/10/05, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Could a few of us write up a page on the openSUSE wiki to explain the situation, once for all ? I'm not really an expert on that topic but I have been sitting in a few talks about it ;), nevertheless not sufficient to write up a bullet-proof explanation.

Maybe we could start with my previous mail in this thread, and compliment it with the useful additions of Andreas and Martin, and have it cross-read by a few other people who do have expertise in that area (possible from Novell as well).

I actually created http://www.opensuse.org/Restricted_Formats during an early bout of the MP3 support discussions on the mailing list. It would be a good start to expand that page with your email. Pflodo.

houghi

12:01

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 11:31:17AM +0200, Andreas Simon wrote:

...

On Tuesday 04 October 2005 09:54, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
So, to summarize: libdvdcss2 is (L)GPL, but infringes patents because they break the conditions by which you are allowed to play encrypted DVDs.

Apart from any patents libdvdcss2 circumvents a copy-protection of music data media. The ownership, distribution, or usage of such copy-protection circumventions is also illegal in some countries due to the law on copyright (You already made the example of the german c't magazine which got sued because of a mere hyperlink to such a circumvention).

Apperently I was not clear in what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say is if there is a LEGAL solution as in a company is able to sell something like libdvdcss in the same way as it is done for XP, it is better to have that as a solution for the whole of Linux, not just for SUSE users. The problem is simple, they don't want to sell it, so they make it so difficult so they can legaly say they are willing to sell. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

Martin Sommer

12:25

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005, houghi wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 11:31:17AM +0200, Andreas Simon wrote:

...
On Tuesday 04 October 2005 09:54, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
So, to summarize: libdvdcss2 is (L)GPL, but infringes patents because they break the conditions by which you are allowed to play encrypted DVDs.

Apart from any patents libdvdcss2 circumvents a copy-protection of music data media. The ownership, distribution, or usage of such copy-protection circumventions is also illegal in some countries due to the law on copyright (You already made the example of the german c't magazine which got sued because of a mere hyperlink to such a circumvention).

Apperently I was not clear in what I wanted to say. What I wanted to say is if there is a LEGAL solution as in a company is able to sell something like libdvdcss in the same way as it is done for XP, it is better to have that as a solution for the whole of Linux, not just for SUSE users.

The problem is simple, they don't want to sell it, so they make it so difficult so they can legaly say they are willing to sell.

I really don't understand what you wanna say. Who don't want to sell what? Microsoft is not selling a DVD player. Only Cyberlink and Intervideo sell DVD players. These players are able to use macrovision with the graphics cards since there are interfaces available provided by the graphics cards manufacturers due to cooperations between the major graphics cards vendors, Microsoft and Macrovision. Therefore the DVD players are able to switch on macrovision in XP but not in Linux. -- Dr. Martin Sommer Product Manager Consumer Products SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, D-90409 Nürnberg Phone: +49 (0) 911 740 530 Fax: +49 (0) 911 740 53 575 Email: martin.sommer@suse.com ----------------------------------------------------------

houghi

13:02

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 02:25:22PM +0200, Martin Sommer wrote:

...

I really don't understand what you wanna say. Who don't want to sell what? Microsoft is not selling a DVD player. Only Cyberlink and Intervideo sell DVD players. These players are able to use macrovision with the graphics cards since there are interfaces available provided by the graphics cards manufacturers due to cooperations between the major graphics cards vendors, Microsoft and Macrovision. Therefore the DVD players are able to switch on macrovision in XP but not in Linux.

You just names the two companies involved. With a bit of fantasy, you will be able to find out who of those two will put whom under presure to NOT sell towards the Linux comunity. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

houghi

11:55

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 09:54:34AM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

...
To build an installer around that should not be too hard, be it deb, rpm, tgz or even a binary.

Well, I'm afraid that even providing an installer could get you into trouble. Depending on the country you live in and the country where your installer is hosted, it can.

I ment to say an installer at the moment you have the rights to sell the file, program or whatever. There is already a version available as a rpm and deb package as well as a source. I am not talking about that. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

houghi

13:17

New subject: [opensuse] libdvdcss, mp3, legal shmoo (was: ...from a former gentoo'er)

On Tue, Oct 04, 2005 at 09:54:34AM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote: <snip> On the subject, if you are in Finland, go and demonstrate: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/04/finland_drm_protests/ Is it not ironic that a DVD released under the Creative Commons Licence can not be played, because of some stupid law. The movie I am talking about is also Finish (and great to watch) http://www.starwreck.com Nice to download and watch while waiting for the 10.0 official release. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

Allen

3 Oct 3 Oct

17:16

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

Maybe you only notice these because you're not busy running emerge 3 times a day to keep up with Gentoo security flaws? In all seriousness now, you're playing with a BETA product. -Allen.

meister＠netz00.com

17:29

New subject: [opensuse] feedback on SuSE10.0RC1 from a former gentoo'er

Am Montag, 3. Oktober 2005 15:25 schrieb Patrick Fehr:

...

Funny thing: on my very first start of kde, an error appeared, it was even before kde could give mi it's "tipps on the start". Don't remember it, I was just laughing.

Hi Patrick, Why?

...

... For the wireless card an Atheros which needs madwifi drivers, you have to get an external kernel source (nongpl), this is nowhere written on opensuse.org

I think it's somewhere written in the wiki, but if you do not know the right URL it's very hard to find infos in this wiki.

...

AND video is not working meaning: I can't play DVD's, the message is: no plugin for the MRL found.

Patented. Only plays uncrypted DVD out-of-the-box. Get some packages from Packman.

...

Power Management is partially working: The light get's darker when I pull the plug BUT the cpu clockspeed is always on 598MHz, which can only be a bad joke.

What does cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_govenor say?

...

It should be there ONLY if the cable is unplugged. (I have 1600MHz at maximum, but not with the power management under openSuSE)

What CPU-Schema did you choose in kpowersave?

...

Printing does not work on my HP Color Laser Jet 1500, which should be connected over lpr on another machine(attached on usb port).

If the printer is set up with cups on the other machine: start kprinter->Systempreferences->CUPS-Server and change "localhost" to the name of the other machine. Should work out-of-the box.

...

... Next point is that I can't get entrance or enlightenment to work. under gentoo I could easily change under /etc/rc.conf which displaymanger was used. Now openSuSE seems to have another way but does not tell me which one. I went over to runlevel services under yast, activated entrance but nothing moved.

Yast2->System->Edit /etc/sysconfig->Desktop Display-Manager Window-Manager

...

Btw what is earlykdm? kdm just with a cooler name? :)

Early startup of kdm.

...

I also hate the image on grub..

comment out the line gfxmenu ... in /boot/grub/menu.lst. You will get a nice text-mode boot-menu.

...

*shrug keep it simple, the same goes to the kde background, why not just use the standard kde background?

right-click on the desktop. I always change the background. Even on windows or MacOS.

...

... startup... there isn't even the K StartMenu, it's that gecko smile...

Nice, isn't it :-)

...

... Hotplug works good, but i'd rather see the usbstick in media:/ folder instead of in /media/usbstick but that's a detail.

Works for me. But on Alpha1 suseplugger and kde try to do the same job...

...

...

-- mdc

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participants (19)

Allen
Andreas Girardet
Andreas Simon
Carl Hartung
Daniel Bertolo
Daniel Bertolo
eddieleprince
Fred A. Miller
houghi
jdd
Jukka
Marcus Cooper
Marcus Meissner
Martin Sommer
meister＠netz00.com
Pascal Bleser
Patrick Fehr
Peter Flodin
radoeka