Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE.

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Miguel de Icaza

22 May 2006 22 May '06

16:18

Hello folks, I wanted to answer a few questions that folks have posed on the list. Am currently leading the Mono effort at Novell, but I happen to be on the same building where some of the desktop/Gnome guys live. You should not consider this email as authoritative, because I am not directly involved in the desktop group, but I share lunch with the guys and the usability lab is next to my office, so I tend to talk to them. So with this in mind: * Ximian and Gnome The Ximian group has not existed for a long time, it was split into various groups after the Novell acquisition, and they have merged, transformed and shifted into various areas. In the engineering area some guys went into ZenWorks management (the Red Carpet guys), some went to the desktop effort and some are part of Mono. In particular, I would like to point out that the effort is not really aimed at "Gnome" per se, but at the "Desktop". That is the important end goal, Gnome is merely one of the components of the desktop. * Gnome version number 2.14 My impression is that the latest Gnome froze too late in the schedule for it to be incorporated into our SUSE distribution. I know that some of the important features and fixes in 2.14 were backported earlier to our version of 2.12 because we knew the dates would not work for us. I know that the Desktop Group is working towards polishing, fixing, improving and tuning what will be the next enterprise product SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop (SLED) which is a product that we have to maintain for a number of years (5, 7, I cant remember). So the focus has been in making sure that we do the best possible job for this distribution that we will be supporting for a very long time. As someone has pointed out on the list elsewhere, am sure that 2.14 will make it into the next iteration of OpenSUSE; But the team managing that is currently crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's to make sure SLED is as good as everyone hopes it will be. * The Desktop Group In general, the Desktop Group works on various areas: they do develop new software (Xgl, beagle, the new slab, open office macro support, F-Spot, Banshee, compiz) and they do extend and contribute to existing software extensively. We believe that a complete desktop is much more than just Gnome. The team is trying to put together a very comprehensive, and in my opinion, the most ambitious desktop release of a Linux desktop ever created. You might not see them actively posting on the list, but they are there, and if you are interested particularly on the Gnome angle, you can track some of their progress on a number of aggregators (Planet Gnome and Monologue come to mind) as well as the multitude of irc channels in irc.gnome.org devoted to specific projects (#banshee, #ipodsharp, #f-spot, #dashboard used for Beagle). Someone pointed out that I was in charge of Gnome; I am not directly involved in Gnome anymore. I work on Mono, and we work on Gtk# and developer tools like MonoDevelop which are only indirectly related to Gnome. * Mailing lists I only found out today about this mailing list, am sure other guys are in the same boat. Some of the developers read this list, some do not. I do not know if there is a policy about this, and if there is, I do not know what it is. I know that on my team (Mono) I ask my developers to track 3 or 4 mailing lists, and I ask specific individuals to also watch a few more specific lists (for example, some of them have to participate in the ECMA process, some of them have to monitor reported bugs and QA them). Maybe my group needs to pay more attention to the OpenSUSE list; I will certainly keep an eye for Mono-related issues on the list myself. Hope this clarifies some of the questions on the list, Miguel.

Show replies by date

jdd

22 May 22 May

17:03

New subject: [opensuse] Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE.

Miguel de Icaza wrote:

...

Maybe my group needs to pay more attention to the OpenSUSE list; I will certainly keep an eye for Mono-related issues on the list myself.

thanks a lot, Miguel, it's very pleasant to see people like you on this list (I'm proud to share some things with you :-). May be to keep in touch with the openSUSE community, the best place is here. The other openSUSE lists are more specialized. sincerely jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

houghi

18:39

New subject: [opensuse] Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE.

On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 07:03:43PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Miguel de Icaza wrote:

...
Maybe my group needs to pay more attention to the OpenSUSE list; I will certainly keep an eye for Mono-related issues on the list myself.

thanks a lot, Miguel, it's very pleasant to see people like you on this list (I'm proud to share some things with you :-).

Thanks from me as well.

...

May be to keep in touch with the openSUSE community, the best place is here. The other openSUSE lists are more specialized.

Could be that opensuse-factory is interesting as well, as that is the one that deals with future stuff of SUSE. -- houghi http://houghi.org http://www.plainfaqs.org/linux/ http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

...

Today I went outside. My pupils have never been tinier...

Pascal Bleser

21:53

New subject: [opensuse] Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Miguel de Icaza wrote:

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Hello folks,

Hi Miguel, thanks for answering, and good to see someone from the non-SUSE-Nürnberg branch of Novell involved into this (not that I have anything against them.. totally not actually ;D). @Marcus, of course my mail was near the red line of flamebait, and it was more or less on purpose (the questions I raised were valid though). IMO it's OK to sometimes shake the box a little to get something moving (note that there was no intent nor content to blame or criticize individuals).

...

I wanted to answer a few questions that folks have posed on the list. Am currently leading the Mono effort at Novell, but I happen to be on the same building where some of the desktop/Gnome guys live. You should not consider this email as authoritative, because I am not directly involved in the desktop group, but I share lunch with the guys and the usability lab is next to my office, so I tend to talk to them. So with this in mind:

Nothing authoritative here Miguel, we're part of the same (so I hope) community around SUSE Linux and just discussing here.

...

* Ximian and Gnome The Ximian group has not existed for a long time, it was split into various groups after the Novell acquisition, and they have merged, transformed and shifted into various areas. In the engineering area some guys went into ZenWorks management (the Red Carpet guys), some went to the desktop effort and some are part of Mono. In particular, I would like to point out that the effort is not really aimed at "Gnome" per se, but at the "Desktop". That is the important end goal, Gnome is merely one of the components of the desktop.

Good to see you write that. We'll remind you about it ;) (oops, just after saying it's not authoritative ;))

...

* Gnome version number 2.14 My impression is that the latest Gnome froze too late in the schedule for it to be incorporated into our SUSE distribution. I know that some of the important features and fixes in 2.14 were backported earlier to our version of 2.12 because we knew the dates would not work for us.

Absolutely agree. Feature freeze is the only way to manage distribution releases, and that isn't questioned at all, it's perfectly fine. After all, KDE 3.5.2 was released during the beta releases of 10.1 and it's understandable it wasn't upgraded for 10.1 final, both from technical/QA and organizational aspects. Nevertheless, while I'm totally aware that the supplementary builds are very low priority at Novell, my point can be summarized like this: 1) KDE 3.5.2 was released 2 weeks after GNOME 2.14 - yet, KDE 3.5.2 packages for SUSE Linux 10.1 were available a good week after the GM release (and packages were available for SL 10.0 a week or two after KDE 3.5.2 was released) 2) Other distributions, such as Fedora Core include GNOME 2.14, which is understandable as FC has been released after SL 10.1, but e.g. Ubuntu also provides GNOME 2.14 packages as an upgrade. Talking about "community guerrilla marketing", believe me that it's quite difficult to explain to end-users and potential SUSE Linux converts why those 2 distributions include the latest stable GNOME release but Novell doesn't provide an upgrade path as it does for KDE (and I do speak about _unsupported_ upgrades). I mean, Novell.. after buying Ximian and employing some of the most influential individuals in the GNOME community (just to name you and Robert Love), people would actually expect to have the best and most polished GNOME desktop of all Linux distributions. Unfortunately, today, that seems to be Ubuntu and not SUSE Linux. That's what I called a "ridiculous situation". At least it is to me. If I'm missing something or am totally wrong in my assumptions, I'd be grateful for clarification and/or correcting me. Those 2 points above and not seeing any of you guys involved into communication with the openSUSE.org community (*), sched a light of not really being interested in direct communication with us and solely being focused on GNOME, Mono or SLED/SLES. At least it does so to me (and I'm not the only one). Some points you raise further in your email are probably a good reason/explanation for this situation. (*) @Marcus: sorry, but developing software that's included into SUSE Linux and in SLES/SLED, and/or replying to bugzilla issues doesn't count, that's your everyday job and would be the case even if this openSUSE.org communication channel with the community wouldn't exist. I'm _not_ saying people must participate during their spare time, nor am I saying that Novell must tell those people to do so nor spend a considerable amount of time reading mailing-lists. I'm very aware of priorities and that those people are developers or project managers who have tasks, deadlines and commitments (I'm working as a system architect for a company that's 8 * Novell in terms of size, I know what that means). I'm just saying that it is an unfortunate situation and while we (sorry for speaking on behalf of many people, but I think it's accurate) are thankful and enjoying the ongoing efforts of the SUSE team in Nürnberg to take time to discuss with us, it would be beneficial to everyone to have at least a few people from other Linux-related Novell branches have an eye on e.g. this list. @Thomas H.: don't forget that we as a community are a very valuable asset for Novell, we're not less important from a strategic point of view than their developers (I mean if we were, they wouldn't have pushed openSUSE in the first place, wouldn't they). Don't put us down as just being an annoyance for the developers. While we (as a community) are having a benefit from a much more direct communication and, hopefully, more and more collaboration between the people working on SUSE Linux, the opposite is very true as well. That's the whole point in the first place, it's a "win-win" situation.

...

I know that the Desktop Group is working towards polishing, fixing, improving and tuning what will be the next enterprise product SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop (SLED) which is a product that we have to maintain for a number of years (5, 7, I cant remember). So the focus has been in making sure that we do the best possible job for this distribution that we will be supporting for a very long time. As someone has pointed out on the list elsewhere, am sure that 2.14 will make it into the next iteration of OpenSUSE; But the team managing that is currently crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's to make sure SLED is as good as everyone hopes it will be.

Ok, I guess that's an explanation of why there isn't a GNOME 2.14 in supplementary (*) yet. It draws priorities towards the Build Service (**) and a more collaborative model with the community wrt packaging, as the current situation (polishing+fixing SLED 10) is a blocker for providing latest GNOME packages for at least two and a half months (no pun intended, just an observation). (*) http://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/supplementary/GNOME/ (**) http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service

...

* The Desktop Group In general, the Desktop Group works on various areas: they do develop new software (Xgl, beagle, the new slab, open office macro support, F-Spot, Banshee, compiz) and they do extend and contribute to existing software extensively. We believe that a complete desktop is much more than just Gnome. The team is trying to put together a very comprehensive, and in my opinion, the most ambitious desktop release of a Linux desktop ever created. You might not see them actively posting on the list, but they are there, and if you are interested particularly on the Gnome angle, you can track some of their progress on a number of aggregators (Planet Gnome and Monologue come to mind) as well as the multitude of irc channels in irc.gnome.org devoted to specific projects (#banshee, #ipodsharp, #f-spot, #dashboard used for Beagle).

Sorry, can't resist: noticed that "it's much more than just GNOME", but all of the communication channels you just cited are all... GNOME ? ;)

...

Someone pointed out that I was in charge of Gnome; I am not directly involved in Gnome anymore. I work on Mono, and we work on Gtk# and developer tools like MonoDevelop which are only indirectly related to Gnome.

That was me. Seems I was wrong, but I think you're still a very vocal advocate and influential person wrt GNOME. Or not ? ;)

...

* Mailing lists

(note, here's what I'm relating to with "Some points you raise further in your email..." above)

...

I only found out today about this mailing list, am sure other guys are in the same boat. Some of the developers read this list, some do not. I do not know if there is a policy about this, and if there is, I do not know what it is.

I sure hope it isn't necessary to have a policy at Novell to have at least a very few people of e.g. the Desktop team have an eye on this list (and/or other opensuse-* lists) and contribute at times to threads that are of their interest (or ours (I mean the community)). If it does require some policy or management involvement, then at least it would be worth raising that issue (yes, I think it's an issue) over there. This list has become mid-traffic and would certainly take some time to be followed accurately on every topic. That's not really feasible, and no one is expecting nor demanding that. But I think that at least some threads here, on opensuse-factory or opensuse-packaging would benefit from their presence. Of course, the opposite is true as well, to be connected with the people that use, advocate, and work during their spare time to make SUSE Linux a better experience for everyone. ...

...

Maybe my group needs to pay more attention to the OpenSUSE list; I will certainly keep an eye for Mono-related issues on the list myself.

That would be very good indeed, both for you guys and for us.

...

Hope this clarifies some of the questions on the list,

It has certainly helped. Thanks Miguel, it's highly appreciated. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEcjLSr3NMWliFcXcRAqR2AJ9OkRTmXpRFzwD5bixUp9OmU9MnggCfcwWd zXaWPJT84Cw5F02qhy090Fs= =qgV9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Thomas Hertweck

22:26

New subject: [opensuse] Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE.

Pascal Bleser wrote:

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[...] @Thomas H.: don't forget that we as a community are a very valuable asset for Novell, we're not less important from a strategic point of view than their developers (I mean if we were, they wouldn't have pushed openSUSE in the first place, wouldn't they).

Yes, sure. I mean otherwise it would not have made any sense for Novell to create an openSUSE project in the first place, and that's what I have mentioned before. It's part of their strategy.

...

Don't put us down as just being an annoyance for the developers. While we (as a community) are having a benefit from a much more direct communication and, hopefully, more and more collaboration between the people working on SUSE Linux, the opposite is very true as well. That's the whole point in the first place, it's a "win-win" situation.

Well, that's the ideal situation, right? I might have a more pragmatic point of view based on my daily experiences and I think that this is not (yet?) a realistic situation. It does not mean putting anybody down or something like that, it just means from my point of view avoiding to raise the expectations to a level that can never be reached. You were asking why the latest GNOME packages are not online on one of SUSE's FTP servers. Well, I think you got some answers now: people at Novell/SUSE seem to work on the SLED and SLES products and this has just a higher priority than other things, e.g. creating the latest GNOME packages and putting them into the supplementary tree (I got, of course, your point; this does not explain why the latest KDE packages are online). I think that perfectly supports all of what I have said before ;-) Please don't misunderstand me, I am not arguing against the openSUSE project, the community, the developers, etc. - I just try to explain why we have such a situation at the moment. Cheers, Th.

houghi

23:01

New subject: Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:53:22PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

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(and I do speak about _unsupported_ upgrades).

I think there is an issue there. Many people want to run the latest whatever for whatever reason. With SUSE they have the choice between security patches or running the latest version. I understand the technical reason. However I believe there is a real demand from users, that I see, about running the latest version of e.g. KDE. Unfortunatly they then loose security updates when they do this. Is there not a way around this? e.g. having more then one YOU and having unsupported upgrades as well? -- houghi http://houghi.org http://www.plainfaqs.org/linux/ http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

...

Today I went outside. My pupils have never been tinier...

Pascal Bleser

23:14

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 houghi wrote:

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On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:53:22PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

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(and I do speak about _unsupported_ upgrades).

I think there is an issue there. Many people want to run the latest whatever for whatever reason. With SUSE they have the choice between security patches or running the latest version.

Correct.

...

I understand the technical reason. However I believe there is a real demand from users, that I see, about running the latest version of e.g. KDE.

Yes. It's probably the most recurrent question on IRC (#suse and #opensuse): "how to install KDE 3.5.2", or "how to install GNOME 2.14" (well, now that 10.1 is released, unfortunately the most recurring question is "why is yast2 frozen or crashing when I install packages" - no offense intended, but that's how it is)

...

Unfortunatly they then loose security updates when they do this.

Indeed.

...

Is there not a way around this? e.g. having more then one YOU and having unsupported upgrades as well?

I think that would put a big burden on packagers. - From my experience with the supplementary KDE repository, when critical bugfixes and/or security fixes are necessary, their are being incorporated into those packages. Usually 2 or 3 days after the Online Update, which is understandable, but they are. So the situation is not as critical as it might appear. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEckXxr3NMWliFcXcRAoc2AKCMktEr9T3r2xUR210pHpTC1mLIIACgq4M4 6FH/CHlpiHb6UpNuu0VgyBA= =z+oL -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Marcus Meissner

23 May 23 May

06:44

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 01:01:34AM +0200, houghi wrote:

...

On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:53:22PM +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
(and I do speak about _unsupported_ upgrades).

I think there is an issue there. Many people want to run the latest whatever for whatever reason. With SUSE they have the choice between security patches or running the latest version.

I understand the technical reason. However I believe there is a real demand from users, that I see, about running the latest version of e.g. KDE.

Unfortunatly they then loose security updates when they do this.

Since supplementarty contains usually the newest versions, this is not a real issue.

...

Is there not a way around this? e.g. having more then one YOU and having unsupported upgrades as well?

With 10.1 this is possible. Ciao, Marcus

jdd

07:47

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

...
Unfortunatly they then loose security updates when they do this.

Since supplementarty contains usually the newest versions, this is not a real issue.

as always, if you begin this you _must_ continue upgrade any version. In a production system, this seems a very bad idea. so if people ask for this, the only answer is: don't do so. I can understand one needs the very last kdenlive, because this is very new app, but what about Kde??? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Pascal Bleser

09:58

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

jdd wrote:

...

Marcus Meissner wrote:

...
...
Unfortunately they then loose security updates when they do this.

Since supplementary contains usually the newest versions, this is not a real issue.

as always, if you begin this you _must_ continue upgrade any version. In a production system, this seems a very bad idea. so if people ask for this, the only answer is: don't do so.

I can understand one needs the very last kdenlive, because this is very new app, but what about Kde???

Come spend some time on IRC and see what people are actually asking for. *Most if not almost everyone* over there wants and installs the latest KDE packages from KDE supplementary. KDE 3.5.2 has a lot of bugfixes compared to 3.5.1. As of SL 10.0, the difference is even bigger: 3.5.x is a *lot* faster than 3.4.2. Frankly, on 10.0, I'd recommend anyone to upgrade to 3.5.x (unless it's a server and you don't care about the desktop in the first place). Answering "don't do so" would be stupid IMO. We do point them out to the fact that it's unsupported and merely provided by convenience, and that they won't get Online Updates for those packages, but as Marcus and I pointed out, the record until now has been very good wrt that (at least for KDE supplementary): it's always the latest version and I've even seen major bugfixes and security fixes being provided in that repository as well. People are very aware of those facts when they choose to upgrade to KDE 3.5.2 and it's not turning them off in any way. I'm very aware of the "featuritis" syndrome, but as far as guerrilla marketing is concerned... You might not think that way, and neither do I nor most people on this list, but from what I've seen on IRC (and I'm on #suse and #opensuse every night), I think that many potential SUSE Linux converts who come asking for information about the distribution would likely rather use another (e.g. kubuntu) than staying with KDE 3.4.x. At least that was the case for SL 10.0. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's really my impression. Before making assumptions in your black box, come out and look what users are asking for. They want it, and so do I, and we're fine using it. The fact that this works is of course mostly due to the fact that the KDE packagers in Nürnberg (Cornelius Schumacher and Stephan Binner) are fast and reactive to provide packages in the KDE supplementary repository. Unfortunately, and as discussed in another thread, that's not the case for the supplementary GNOME repository, and generally we (on IRC) recommend rather not to use it or, if so, with great care, as we've seen it blow up quite a few desktop setups. Hopefully it'll get better :) cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v http://www.fosdem.org

Dinar Valeev

11:07

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

just my 5 cents I wait to gnome 2.14 in supplementary because it hase a lot of improvements in speed. I understanda than gnome 2.12 from SuSE have backported features from 2.14but i cant see any speed up improvement. sry fro my english On 5/23/06, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

jdd wrote:

...
Marcus Meissner wrote:

...
...
Unfortunately they then loose security updates when they do this.

Since supplementary contains usually the newest versions, this is not a real issue.

as always, if you begin this you _must_ continue upgrade any version. In a production system, this seems a very bad idea. so if people ask for this, the only answer is: don't do so.

I can understand one needs the very last kdenlive, because this is very new app, but what about Kde???

Come spend some time on IRC and see what people are actually asking for.

*Most if not almost everyone* over there wants and installs the latest KDE packages from KDE supplementary.

KDE 3.5.2 has a lot of bugfixes compared to 3.5.1.

As of SL 10.0, the difference is even bigger: 3.5.x is a *lot* faster than 3.4.2. Frankly, on 10.0, I'd recommend anyone to upgrade to 3.5.x (unless it's a server and you don't care about the desktop in the first place).

Answering "don't do so" would be stupid IMO. We do point them out to the fact that it's unsupported and merely provided by convenience, and that they won't get Online Updates for those packages, but as Marcus and I pointed out, the record until now has been very good wrt that (at least for KDE supplementary): it's always the latest version and I've even seen major bugfixes and security fixes being provided in that repository as well. People are very aware of those facts when they choose to upgrade to KDE 3.5.2 and it's not turning them off in any way.

I'm very aware of the "featuritis" syndrome, but as far as guerrilla marketing is concerned... You might not think that way, and neither do I nor most people on this list, but from what I've seen on IRC (and I'm on #suse and #opensuse every night), I think that many potential SUSE Linux converts who come asking for information about the distribution would likely rather use another (e.g. kubuntu) than staying with KDE 3.4.x. At least that was the case for SL 10.0. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's really my impression.

Before making assumptions in your black box, come out and look what users are asking for. They want it, and so do I, and we're fine using it. The fact that this works is of course mostly due to the fact that the KDE packagers in Nürnberg (Cornelius Schumacher and Stephan Binner) are fast and reactive to provide packages in the KDE supplementary repository. Unfortunately, and as discussed in another thread, that's not the case for the supplementary GNOME repository, and generally we (on IRC) recommend rather not to use it or, if so, with great care, as we've seen it blow up quite a few desktop setups. Hopefully it'll get better :)

cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v http://www.fosdem.org

Francis Giannaros

11:58

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

I totally agree with this. I'm a late but dedicated convert to SUSE now, and back when I was starting out I most definitely would've ditched SUSE if I discovered that 3.5 packages weren't available at all; 3.5 had quite a few new touch-ups. 3.4 is most certainly old news. If I wanted to always compile KDE I'd be on Gentoo. I would've almost definitely asked what the heck someone was doing on 3.4 now if I heard about it. I've installed SUSE on about 5/6 computers here for friends, and the first thing I did was add the extra sources and upgrade KDE. Noticing that constantly on the dot (http://dot.kde.org) it said with every new package announcement that "X is released.... blah blah. Packages are available for SUSE and Kubuntu" (take the latest koffice announcement, for example), put my mind at rest that I wouldn't be running an ancient distro, even if it was still notorious for its polish and finish. I also idle a lot on IRC as of late (particularly after my exams finished), and I can vouch for all that was just said there with regard to user comments. The most recurring statement now is "what's up with the package management!!", where we generally end up recommending smart since it's an incredibly tedious business adding sources to yast and getting the package management up-and-running (bug #168804 #168935), followed by whether the latest KDE will be available. Fortunately Beineri announced quite early on in his blog that KDE 3.5.2 packs were going to be up in the next week or so, so once again that gave users some reassurance. Though tbh I'm not that concerned about using 3.5.1 as much, since it's a bugfix release, but I would be concerned if 3.5.3 wasn't released soon-ish from when it was officially released (which will be feature and bugfix; a one-off). Anyhow, I certainly hope that this trend of releasing new packages to the community will continue, as I find it invaluable. It would be nice if our friends over at GNOME could enjoy the same luxuries, I'm sure. Kind thoughts, Francis Giannaros (apokryphos). On Tuesday 23 May 2006 10:58, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

jdd wrote:

...
Marcus Meissner wrote:

...
...
Unfortunately they then loose security updates when they do this.

Since supplementary contains usually the newest versions, this is not a real issue.

as always, if you begin this you _must_ continue upgrade any version. In a production system, this seems a very bad idea. so if people ask for this, the only answer is: don't do so.

I can understand one needs the very last kdenlive, because this is very new app, but what about Kde???

Come spend some time on IRC and see what people are actually asking for.

*Most if not almost everyone* over there wants and installs the latest KDE packages from KDE supplementary.

KDE 3.5.2 has a lot of bugfixes compared to 3.5.1.

As of SL 10.0, the difference is even bigger: 3.5.x is a *lot* faster than 3.4.2. Frankly, on 10.0, I'd recommend anyone to upgrade to 3.5.x (unless it's a server and you don't care about the desktop in the first place).

Answering "don't do so" would be stupid IMO. We do point them out to the fact that it's unsupported and merely provided by convenience, and that they won't get Online Updates for those packages, but as Marcus and I pointed out, the record until now has been very good wrt that (at least for KDE supplementary): it's always the latest version and I've even seen major bugfixes and security fixes being provided in that repository as well. People are very aware of those facts when they choose to upgrade to KDE 3.5.2 and it's not turning them off in any way.

I'm very aware of the "featuritis" syndrome, but as far as guerrilla marketing is concerned... You might not think that way, and neither do I nor most people on this list, but from what I've seen on IRC (and I'm on #suse and #opensuse every night), I think that many potential SUSE Linux converts who come asking for information about the distribution would likely rather use another (e.g. kubuntu) than staying with KDE 3.4.x. At least that was the case for SL 10.0. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's really my impression.

Before making assumptions in your black box, come out and look what users are asking for. They want it, and so do I, and we're fine using it. The fact that this works is of course mostly due to the fact that the KDE packagers in Nürnberg (Cornelius Schumacher and Stephan Binner) are fast and reactive to provide packages in the KDE supplementary repository. Unfortunately, and as discussed in another thread, that's not the case for the supplementary GNOME repository, and generally we (on IRC) recommend rather not to use it or, if so, with great care, as we've seen it blow up quite a few desktop setups. Hopefully it'll get better :)

cheers

jdd

12:45

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Come spend some time on IRC and see what people are actually asking for.

but what IRC? on opensuse there are roughly nobody... (on fr 4/5 people :-)))

...

KDE 3.5.2 has a lot of bugfixes compared to 3.5.1.

and probably a lot of new bugs :-(.

...

Answering "don't do so" would be stupid IMO.

if it works, don't change it is always a good answer. what are you doing on your computer? upgrading all the time? I keep up to date the post important apps I use. never the underlaying stuff. I doubt an unsupported kde on suse 9.3 to be better than the original one without a lot of work.

...

I'm very aware of the "featuritis" syndrome, but as far as guerrilla marketing is concerned...

opensuse is free, what guerilla do you see? let the others use factory :-) a _stable_ release must do what it's said to: be stable.

...

You might not think that way, and neither do I nor most people on this list, but from what I've seen on IRC (and I'm on #suse and #opensuse every night)

well how many users there? , I think that many potential SUSE Linux converts who come

...

asking for information about the distribution would likely rather use another (e.g. kubuntu) than staying with KDE 3.4.x. At least that was the case for SL 10.0. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's really my impression.

frankly these users don't interest me. They can do what they want, but don't come to support then... I'm not against such thing, but I don't want it become a priority against stability. to have the last to notch, use factory, simply. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

houghi

12:57

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 02:45:02PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
Come spend some time on IRC and see what people are actually asking for.

but what IRC? on opensuse there are roughly nobody... (on fr 4/5 people :-)))

Perhaps you should look at the distribution, SUSE (#suse) and not at the community openSUSE (#opensuse)

...

I keep up to date the post important apps I use. never the underlaying stuff. I doubt an unsupported kde on suse 9.3 to be better than the original one without a lot of work.

Same here.

...

opensuse is free, what guerilla do you see? let the others use factory :-)

Again, I think you are talking about SUSE the distribution and not openSUSE the community. Not sure though. -- houghi http://houghi.org http://www.plainfaqs.org/linux/ http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

...

Today I went outside. My pupils have never been tinier...

jdd

13:12

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

houghi wrote:

...

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 02:45:02PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...
Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
Come spend some time on IRC and see what people are actually asking for.

but what IRC? on opensuse there are roughly nobody... (on fr 4/5 people :-)))

Perhaps you should look at the distribution, SUSE (#suse)

213 names right now (105 in opensuse) and how many sleeping? _many_ people lauch irc with they linux and don't look at it... (and in #fr I'm alone :-)

...

Again, I think you are talking about SUSE the distribution and not openSUSE the community. Not sure though.

what I say is that for day to day use the version of kde is no more important. One don't work with kde, but with apps. Konqueror is already wonderfull... So for a distribution (SUSE Linux, yes?), stability is the only essential thing. others a games. I said to a friend of mine two hours ago that Linux where the better MPOLRPG ever found :-) I very often make production work on factory :-) I like danger :-) but I don't ask this to be the rule :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

houghi

13:34

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 03:12:40PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

what I say is that for day to day use the version of kde is no more important. One don't work with kde, but with apps. Konqueror is already wonderfull...

So for a distribution (SUSE Linux, yes?), stability is the only essential thing.

others a games. I said to a friend of mine two hours ago that Linux where the better MPOLRPG ever found :-)

I very often make production work on factory :-) I like danger :-)

but I don't ask this to be the rule :-)

I agree, even though I don't use KDE (or GNOME) -- houghi http://houghi.org http://www.plainfaqs.org/linux/ http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

...

Today I went outside. My pupils have never been tinier...

Pascal Bleser

14:54

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

jdd wrote:

...

Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
Come spend some time on IRC and see what people are actually asking for.

but what IRC? on opensuse there are roughly nobody... (on fr 4/5 people :-)))

On #suse there are almost 200 people every evening, AFAICR. At times where I connect (usually around 23:00 CET), I'd say there are around 30-40 active people.

...

...
KDE 3.5.2 has a lot of bugfixes compared to 3.5.1. and probably a lot of new bugs :-(.

3.5.2 is a *bugfix* release. And if everyone was thinking like you, we'd still be using a Linux 2.0 kernel.

...

...
Answering "don't do so" would be stupid IMO.

if it works, don't change it is always a good answer. what are you doing on your computer? upgrading all the time?

1) I use my workstations at home and at work all the time, development, writing documentation, browsing, email, IMAP server, etc.. etc... - probably heavier stuff than you are doing 2) I'm not "upgrading all the time", but I'm selectively upgrading quite a few packages: latest firefox, thunderbird, openoffice, KDE, dovecot, getmail, .... - and although I'm a software developer and have 10 years of experience with Linux, I don't need to fiddle with it, it works and I've never been bitten by it

...

I keep up to date the post important apps I use. never the underlaying stuff. I doubt an unsupported kde on suse 9.3 to be better than the original one without a lot of work.

Well that's the way you manage your system. Do however you please, but don't assume that your case is the typical one. From my experience, it isn't. And BTW that doesn't have anything to do with the topic. I wrote at least twice that from what I see on IRC (and anyone hanging around on #suse will tell you the same), web forums or mailing-lists, most users (if not all) always want to upgrade to the latest version of several key applications and packages they use all the time. KDE, GNOME and Firefox being the most frequent. Do you think writing "if it works, don't change it is always a good answer" will make everyone on this planet change their mind ? ;) That's the situation, and you're not going to change it. And I think you're wrong by stating it is _always_ a good answer. It isn't, at least not always. At the very least, on IRC, it would be the best way to drive a lot of people away from SUSE Linux.

...

...
I'm very aware of the "featuritis" syndrome, but as far as guerrilla marketing is concerned...

opensuse is free, what guerilla do you see? let the others use factory :-)

http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/articles/guerrilla-marketing/

...

a _stable_ release must do what it's said to: be stable.

KDE 3.5.2 is being very stable for me. You're really missing the actual topic, by a long shot.

...

...
You might not think that way, and neither do I nor most people on this list, but from what I've seen on IRC (and I'm on #suse and #opensuse every night)

well how many users there?

Around 200 on each (but more or less the same people on both).

...

...
I think that many potential SUSE Linux converts who come asking for information about the distribution would likely rather use another (e.g. kubuntu) than staying with KDE 3.4.x. At least that was the case for SL 10.0. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's really my impression.

frankly these users don't interest me. They can do what they want, but

Those users are a big part of the SUSE Linux community and people we'd want to attract to SUSE Linux (or at least, so does Novell).

...

don't come to support then...

Who is talking about support ? No one is. This is not what the topic is about. It's about providing the latest stable versions of certain packages, not about support. Just understand that while it is not important to you, it is important to a significant part of users.

...

I'm not against such thing, but I don't want it become a priority against stability. to have the last to notch, use factory, simply.

I'm talking about a stable distribution release (e.g. SL 10.0 or 10.1) + upgrades for a few key packages like KDE or GNOME. That's very different from using Factory, as Factory is bleeding edge of everything. cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v http://www.fosdem.org

jdd

17:11

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

3.5.2 is a *bugfix* release.

Here you come to a problem I have here (not with you). stable distribution is only updated for security problems. I think YOU should also do updates for bugfixes. Not a major version change, but if this is really only a bugfix release, it should be in YOU (but is it?).

...

And if everyone was thinking like you, we'd still be using a Linux 2.0 kernel.

I never changed Kde from the distro one and changed however any 12/18 month...

...

2) I'm not "upgrading all the time", but I'm selectively upgrading quite a few packages: latest firefox, thunderbird, openoffice, KDE, dovecot, getmail, .... - and although I'm a software developer and have 10 years of experience with Linux, I don't need to fiddle with it, it works and I've never been bitten by it

I do most of the same :-). But I have always a stable version (openoffice 1.9 versus 2.0 beta, for example) and have often to reverse to the old one. nightly build of mozilla are not always good choice. can't do this with kde.Gnome (however I have still the 10.0 at hand)

...

Well that's the way you manage your system. Do however you please, but don't assume that your case is the typical one. From my experience, it isn't.

but it's only your experience. You should understand than your experience, as mine, is quite nothing in the world and certainly not a standard user one.

...

most users (if not all) always want to upgrade to the latest version

but these same users come also all the day saying they system don't work and asking for support. the newer is the system openSUSE propose, the more difficult is the support. The whole wiki is 2-6 month back from the 10.1 stable version already.

...

Do you think writing "if it works, don't change it is always a good answer" will make everyone on this planet change their mind ? ;)

users wants all free, immediately and with smile, this is not a reason to do so.

...

At the very least, on IRC, it would be the best way to drive a lot of people away from SUSE Linux.

in the people that want such a feature there are two parts. The part, like you are, that can do this themselves and manage it. no problem if they do. very nice if some suse worker (or anybody else) can add an unsupported source. but also the part, probably much larger that wants all but is not able to manage it. and this part will flame us if we can't give support. simply look at the others treads on zen... this one was probably too fresh and not stable enough, so people shout.

...

KDE 3.5.2 is being very stable for me.

I even don't know what version I use, and it's very stable and usable. I have already to see what concrete avantage have the new one. if you said "kde XXxx have _this_ feature and this is a really new and important thing to have", may be we could bring effort, even a backport...

...

You're really missing the actual topic, by a long shot.

I don't think so. if you want to push the freeze date ahead. it is dangerous. supplementary unsupported packages are made on a voluntary basis and it only need to find a volunteer.

...

...
...
I think that many potential SUSE Linux converts who come asking for information about the distribution would likely rather use another (e.g. kubuntu) than staying with KDE 3.4.x. At least that was the case for SL 10.0. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's really my impression.

a can only repeat that people that are so minded don't interest me. I don't think most users are comparing the distributions on this aspect. the differences given by Yast versus the mandriva config tools or dpkg is of an other importance.

...

Those users are a big part of the SUSE Linux community and people we'd want to attract to SUSE Linux (or at least, so does Novell).

if Novell don't follow your advice, you are probably wrong on the last part of your sentence.

...

Who is talking about support ? No one is.

the only thing openSUSE is is support. support in giving packages, support in installing them, support in debugging them. All we do is support.

...

This is not what the topic is about. It's about providing the latest stable versions of certain packages, not about support.

but kde already release them!!! all what you ask after that is support !!!

...

I'm talking about a stable distribution release (e.g. SL 10.0 or 10.1) + upgrades for a few key packages like KDE or GNOME. That's very different from using Factory, as Factory is bleeding edge of everything.

I don't see the difference between kde and openoffice (for example). even worst, a kde problem may break all the distro, not an openoffice one. how can you be sure that changing a so important part of the distribution is dangerless without a hole cycle of testing? can't you wait for 8 month? in that case, I thing you address the wrong problem. to solve what you ask for in a coherent manner I see two ways: * make a strong enough involvement in kde/gnome team to acertain the new release is only bugfixes and will not broke any of the thousand of dependencies SUSE linux have. May be the build service will be a great step in this direction. then make it in YOU * found a way to make the life cycle of SUSE Linux shorter. If we had a three month cycle, as it was at a time, the problem wont exist. But Mandriva is on a year cycle, debian... In fact, if the buld service is strong enough, it will make us in accord and serve any new package without breaking bugs jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

houghi

17:32

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 07:11:18PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

the only thing openSUSE is is support. support in giving packages, support in installing them, support in debugging them. All we do is support.

Not true. openSUSE is a community. It developes, it packages, it thinks about future things. It does not only do support. Perhaps that is what some people do and perhaps that is what most people do and perhaps that is all they do. Yet openSUSE does much more then give support. -- houghi http://houghi.org http://www.plainfaqs.org/linux/ http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

...

Today I went outside. My pupils have never been tinier...

jdd

18:40

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

houghi wrote:

...

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 07:11:18PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...
the only thing openSUSE is is support. support in giving packages, support in installing them, support in debugging them. All we do is support.

Not true. openSUSE is a community. It developes, it packages, it thinks about future things. It does not only do support. Perhaps that is what some people do and perhaps that is what most people do and perhaps that is all they do.

Yet openSUSE does much more then give support.

packaging IS support. You support somebody when you do something he could do but don't want or don't have the time or the ability to do. here, the packaqe is released (at least in source form), one need to compile it and package it (that is why I hope the build service will boost us), but then explain how to install, make the package available... of course only one word can't bring all the stuff, but this one is fairly close :-) to be more clear (I hope :-), the Novell employees mostly don't do support (excepting the one directly paid for) on they work time. They do in deep debugging, programming, packaging. This is the first step giving the SUSE Linux distribution. In this process "the community" gives ghelp (support :-), but in a relatively light way. Even if you see the community as all the people that a day or the other gave a hand to openSUSE, you must admit that in years x man number this is very low. How many are we giving 1 hour a day to openSUSE? a handfull. one hour a week? only a little more. and this is normal. nothing to complain at, nothing to be ashamed of :-) but of course we are on a do it yourself system... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

houghi

20:23

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 08:40:27PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...

houghi wrote:

...
On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 07:11:18PM +0200, jdd wrote:

...
the only thing openSUSE is is support. support in giving packages, support in installing them, support in debugging them. All we do is support.

Not true. openSUSE is a community. It developes, it packages, it thinks about future things. It does not only do support. Perhaps that is what some people do and perhaps that is what most people do and perhaps that is all they do.

Yet openSUSE does much more then give support.

packaging IS support. You support somebody when you do something he could do but don't want or don't have the time or the ability to do.

If you look at it that way then EVERYTHING people do in their lives is support. It however confuses things if you say that support is the only things that the openSUSE community does. It does much more.

...

here, the packaqe is released (at least in source form), one need to compile it and package it (that is why I hope the build service will boost us), but then explain how to install, make the package available...

That is not support, that is delivering a service. There is a (overlapping) difference between a service and support. The moment you say that openSUSE only does support, most people I know will asume that openSUSE will not do development. That openSUSE will not do packagaging or give feedback or files bugs. Yet openSUSE as a community does all that. I am not saying that openSUSE does no support. I am saying that openSUSE does much more then only support.

...

of course only one word can't bring all the stuff, but this one is fairly close :-)

No, it is confusing, because it hides all the rest that openSUSE does. openSUSE holds (IRC) meetings as well. openSUSE has drinks.

...

to be more clear (I hope :-), the Novell employees mostly don't do support

They do not do support, yet they are a very importand part of the openSUSE community,

...

(excepting the one directly paid for) on they work time. They do in deep debugging, programming, packaging. This is the first step giving the SUSE Linux distribution. In this process "the community" gives ghelp (support :-), but in a relatively light way.

The community includes Novell people as well. As you said they don't do support. So they are part of the community and they do not do support, this means that the community does things else then support.

...

Even if you see the community as all the people that a day or the other gave a hand to openSUSE, you must admit that in years x man number this is very low.

And your point is ... <snip> -- houghi http://houghi.org http://www.plainfaqs.org/linux/ http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

...

Today I went outside. My pupils have never been tinier...

Sven Burmeister

22:17

New subject: [opensuse] Upgrades (Was: Gnome and Ximian in OpenSUSE)

Hi! Am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2006 14:45 schrieb jdd:

...

frankly these users don't interest me. They can do what they want, but don't come to support then...

Those users are the ones that file bugs against KDE and Gnome, so that you get a better version next time you upgrade and even more important, next time SuSE releases a product with KDE or Gnome in it. Not everybody likes to install alphas or betas, especially not if they are buggy as the 10.1 ones, so supplementary is the best way to help improve the software and get bugfix versions oneself. You cannot expect people to compile KDE/Gnome themselves just because they want to help making them better products.

...

I'm not against such thing, but I don't want it become a priority against stability.

Assuming that supplementary is not seen as stable (otherwise there would be no reason against it) and after that zen-thingy being released in a "stable" SuSE release, some time has to pass before anyone can claim that SuSE only releases stable packages and thus one should not use supp. supplementary KDE is more stable than the package-management was when being released, just have a look at all the threads!

...

to have the last to notch, use factory, simply.

One does not have to go to the extremes when arguing against something, it does not look very good. Otherwise people could tell you to stick with debian stable, because that would be really stable. Sven

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participants (9)

Dinar Valeev
Francis Giannaros
houghi
jdd
Marcus Meissner
Miguel de Icaza
Pascal Bleser
Sven Burmeister
Thomas Hertweck