On 07/12/06, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

Fix the mailing list.

Yep. When I click on "Reply" in GMail, my reply is addressed to the individual, not the list. -- Michael Leuty Nottingham, UK -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 12/7/06, John Andersen wrote:

On Thursday 07 December 2006 09:40, Michael Leuty wrote:

...

On 07/12/06, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

Fix the mailing list.

I think there was a discussion on this I do not remember all the arguments but should be in the archives :). I am guilty of doing that too by mistake or when I am in a hurry so sorry if you are offended by it. george

...

Yep. When I click on "Reply" in GMail, my reply is addressed to the individual, not the list.

Fix gmail.

X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org <<<<<<<<------------<<< List-Help: mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org List-Subscribe: mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org List-Owner: mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

KMail knows how to handle a list.

-- _____________________________________ John Andersen

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hoper Edei Deixai wrote:

On 07/12/06 19:44, John Andersen wrote:

...

...

...

Fix the mailing list.

Yep. When I click on "Reply" in GMail, my reply is addressed to the individual, not the list.

Fix gmail.

X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org <<<<<<<<------------<<< List-Help: mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org List-Subscribe: mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org List-Owner: mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

KMail knows how to handle a list.

Not Thunderbird nor any webmail client. --

Hoper (aka QED)

Thunderbird extension (for SUSE patched thunderbird) http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03582.html The link for the .xpi is currently dead, but google should be able to pick it up on keyword: replytolist-0.2.0.xpi /Sylvester

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...

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Fix the mailing list. Yep. When I click on "Reply" in GMail, my reply is addressed to the individual, not the list. Fix gmail.

X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org <<<<<<<<------------<<< List-Help: mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org List-Subscribe: mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org List-Owner: mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

KMail knows how to handle a list.

Not Thunderbird nor any webmail client.

And neither PINE: either reply-to-From, reply-to-Reply-To or reply-to-all. Which is why the old one was better. But Bleh. -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

And neither PINE: either reply-to-From, reply-to-Reply-To or reply-to-all. Which is why the old one was better. But Bleh.

If you are using procmail this receipe will add a Reply-To: header :0f * ^X-Mailinglist: opensuse | /usr/bin/formail -bfi "Reply-To:opensuse@opensuse.org" :0 a: $HOME/Mail/IN-OpenSuse In pine it will give the this option Use "Reply-To:" address instead of "From:" address? -- Regards, | Lions District 201 Q3 Rob Unsworth | IT & Internet Chairman Ipswich, Australia | http://www.lionsq3.asn.au ------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

If you are using procmail this receipe will add a Reply-To: header

I have been using that one for years: some one told me that here.

Even comp.mail.pine suggested the/a procmail recipe. I wonder what's wrong in this world? :P -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Carlos E. R. [12-09-06 15:30]:

By the way, I have another recipe to put direct replies out of sight ;-)

Or just remove duplicate list/direct replies and be done with it: # ------------------------------------------------------- # remove duplicate messages # ------------------------------------------------------- LOCKFILE = msgid.cache.lock :0 Whc: msgid.lock | $FORMAIL -D 16384 msgid.cache LOCKFILE ### save duplicates in case of error :0 a: $MAILDIR/duplicates # ------------------------------------------------------- -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Carlos E. R. [12-09-06 20:11]:

It is similar to what gmail does: it even considers duplicated the sent email and the received copy from the list.

I work around that with gmail by using fetchmail from gmail and my provider for smtp rather than gmail. That way I see my posts to the list, but ..... choice is choice and your's is respected :^).. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

Not Thunderbird nor any webmail client.

well wada you expect the windBloZe infection again webmail total dire crap ..

Pete Kmail 1.9.3 and no proplems with list mail member of around 15 lists .

Just cut it already if you are not going to produce something useful (like the procmail recipe - thanks at this point to Rob Unsworth). It's interesting to see _you_ talking about "windbloze" though you are using kmail -- a click-and-colorful GUI like ... Windows users use. Even unrelated to that, saying things like "winbloze" reveals the naiveness and FUD that hides behind "windows sucks linux rocks" statements. -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 07 December 2006 16:43, J Sloan wrote:

Jan Engelhardt wrote:

<snip>

...

Just cut it already if you are not going to produce something useful (like the procmail recipe - thanks at this point to Rob Unsworth). It's interesting to see _you_ talking about "windbloze" though you are using kmail -- a click-and-colorful GUI like ... Windows users use.

But he's running it a unix OS, not windoze... Claiming that anything GUI is somehow like windoze is just plain silly.

I througoughly agree! I just posted a similar response yesterday on linuxquestions as well. That fact that most of us want an easy to use, intuitive GUI for our daily tasks does not mean we like or advocate Windows. Microsoft - as usual - took many ideas from other companies and combined them into a very easy to use and somewhat standardized GUI format. This format is easily recognizable and transferrable to different OS platforms - Windows, KDE, GNOME, MACOS - for example. If I were running on my old SPARC 5 with SUN OS and XWindows, you'd see similar functionality. (Though the GUI wasn't as nice.) For those few who want to stick with non GUI interfaces, that's just fine. I don't blame you and will let you pass on your way. For the rest of us, please let us be!

...

Even unrelated to that, saying things like "winbloze" reveals the naiveness and FUD that hides behind "windows sucks linux rocks" statements.

IMHO there's nothing naive about saying that windoze sucks, rather it' a sign of sentient life!

Again, I concur. Using terms like Winblows, or Wintendo (my favorite) or Microshaft or other derogatory terms is just fine. It does not show any naiveness or spread FUD. It is opinion, nothing more. -- kai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

... "windows sucks linux rocks"

Now you're catching on!

Catching on what? -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 12/7/06, John Andersen wrote:

On Thursday 07 December 2006 10:04, Hoper Edei Deixai wrote:

...

...

KMail knows how to handle a list.

Not Thunderbird nor any webmail client. --

So pop gmail with kmail. Reply via smtp thru gmail.

-- _____________________________________ John Andersen

I had this discussion about 2 months ago, I am subscribed to about 2 dozen lists and within the last 2 months this list default changed. In every other list that I am subscribed to I just hit the reply button in gmail and mail goes to the list. This list also worked this way until about 2 months ago when it changed. I opened that discussion because what had been working one way suddenly changed behavior. I opted for gmail because of the web interface as my employer does not run linux (windows only) and I wanted to be able to keep an eye on the lists from work. John -- Registered Linux User 263680, get counted at http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2006/12/08 07:57 (GMT+0100) Clayton apparently typed:

So.. can anyone point to any other mailing list that has Reply-to set the same as the opensuse lists? I would really like to see it...

I subscribe to about 40 lists. Among the 40 are a substantial number of Yahoogroups lists, which all set a reply-to header back to the list. Of the remainder, at most one quarter do not set a reply-to header back to the list. Among those that do set a reply-to header back to the list: Debian, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Fedora, Fontconfig, KDE, MC. Among those that do not: Samba. -- "Let your conversation be always full of grace." Colossians 4:6 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 08:40 +0100, Clayton wrote:

...

the remainder, at most one quarter do not set a reply-to header back to the list. Among those that do set a reply-to header back to the list: Debian, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Fedora, Fontconfig, KDE, MC. Among those that do not: Samba.

OK, interesting. I don't subscribe to Fedora, Mandriva etc, and with my Ubuntu stuff I use the forums.

Well, at least the openSUSE list isn't alone in the Reply-to formatting... and that's a good point for all involved who are grousing about how this list is set up. This list isn't the only one, as Felix kindly indicated several others - and not obscure mailing lists either - that use the same Reply-to formatting as we do here.

Thanks, I appreciate your info on this :-)

(I wonder if there is the same degree of moaning and gnashing of teeth over the Reply-to formatting on these other lists as there is here?)

C.

in evolution it's just ctrl-l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 12/08/2006 01:57 AM somebody named Clayton wrote:

You know... I don't really care one way or the other how the reply-to works on this list... and we've thrashed it to death a dozen times per year... and the more vocal members of this list all yell and shout about how this list is configured correctly yadda yadda... we even had a vote, and the majority spoke. Which is fine with me.

I have a serious question though. Are there actually any other mailing lists that are configured the way the opensuse mailing lists are? I'm currently a member of a couple dozen mailing lists, and not one has ever behaved the way this list's reply-to is set. Not one. Not once in roughly 20 years of internet, usenet and BBS use.

So.. can anyone point to any other mailing list that has Reply-to set the same as the opensuse lists? I would really like to see it...

I'm not asking this list to change - it's been like this for as long as I can remember, and I don't mind it cuz I'm used to having to always correct the To: address field when I reply. I would just like some point of reference... to see other mailing lists that behave the same way as ours does.

C.

Clayton, Very well put. I've been on mailing lists since before there was linux, and I've set up and managed dozens of mailing lists, and I'm currently a member of about 40 lists, and over these decades on these various lists, *none* of them functioned/functions the way this one does. (Well, about a decade ago one of them sent replies to the OP, this was pointed out to the list management, and it was fixed in a day.) Advocates of the nonsensical suse method of list operations have told us and continue to tell us (tossing in insults along the way) that they're smarter than the rest of the world and so to change things to a sensible configuration would be making an admission they can't make. So this list will never change and people will never stop pointing out that it should be changed, users will continue to hear that they need to use some particular mail client in some singular way to read and reply to this particular list and that if they don't, they're stupid and all other lists in the world are stupid too. So we can't harbor any illusions that way this list (mal)functions will change. We're just going to have to live with it and the huge noise ratio it spawns. I've adopted a sense of humor about the whole thing. The so-called "experts" continually provide me a good chuckle. In fact, I'm hoping this list continue to operate in its peculiar fashion long enough for it to make it into a comedy sketch on TV (like one of the experts using ALL CAPS to make a simple technical misconfiguration, one he advocates, into a netiquette issue). Then, when my friends and acquaintances try to tell me about some hilarious show they saw on TV, I'll be able to say I was there and, yeah, it was really a hoot. -- "Peace hath her victories no less renown'd than war." --John Milton -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 8 2006 17:47, Hartmut Meyer wrote:

... unless he invites people to vote on this.

And guess what: he did.

And guess again: the majority of voters wanted it the way it is now (the setup you disagree with). Go and search in the archives. It's just a few months ago.

A perfect example of why democracy sucks. There are always some users who don't care, don't vote, vote wrong or whatnot. Oh, and you are not including all those future users that will subscribe later in the vote. (We could re-vote on a regular basis to workaround this.) Personally, I would have been more fine if the list administrator(s) dictated the new mode. -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 08 December 2006 19:12, ken wrote:

On 12/08/2006 12:00 PM somebody named Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Dec 8 2006 17:47, Hartmut Meyer wrote:

...

... unless he invites people to vote on this.

And guess what: he did.

And guess again: the majority of voters wanted it the way it is now (the setup you disagree with). Go and search in the archives. It's just a few months ago.

A perfect example of why democracy sucks. There are always some users who don't care, don't vote, vote wrong or whatnot. Oh, and you are not including all those future users that will subscribe later in the vote. (We could re-vote on a regular basis to workaround this.) Personally, I would have been more fine if the list administrator(s) dictated the new mode.

-`J'

As I have said many many times before: I wish people who felt this strongly about these petty things would voice their complaints OFF-LINE. THESE "¤#"#¤" ¤% THREADS TAKE UP 50 MILLION PERCENT MORE BANDWIDTH AND IS A TRILLION TIMES MORE ANNOYING. "¤#¤%"Q¤% STOP IT

As Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other forms of government.

The actual quote is "No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" (Hansard, Nov. 11 1947) The main distinction being that something that has yet to be tried may be better. Personally I'm in favour of Plato's enlightened despot. it's just a pity that it doesn't work in practice Except on this mailing list, of course :)

And Einstein, when told that 2000 Nazi scientists had voted that the theory of relativity was wrong, said 'You cannot vote on what is the truth.'

This quote however I can't find. Nor any reference that the theory of relativity was renounced in Germany (there are many many things said about Germany in this period of history, but ineptitude in the physical sciences isn't one of them) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 12/08/2006 03:33 PM somebody named Felix Miata wrote:

On 2006/12/08 19:50 (GMT+0100) Anders Johansson apparently typed:

...

On Friday 08 December 2006 19:12, ken wrote:

...

...

As Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other forms of government.

...

The actual quote is "No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" (Hansard, Nov. 11 1947)

...

The main distinction being that something that has yet to be tried may be better.

The US Constitution didn't create a democracy. It created a republic. The only real powers its people have lie in the right to sue, and the power to vote for someone else next time, after the current bums have already taxed & spent into oblivion.

Apparently you believe Churchill was referring to the US. Where did this belief come from? -- "Peace hath her victories no less renown'd than war." --John Milton -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 8 2006 13:12, ken wrote:

And Einstein, when told that 2000 Nazi scientists had voted that the theory of relativity was wrong, said 'You cannot vote on what is the truth.'

Haha I knew it! -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 08 December 2006 12:05, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Dec 8 2006 13:12, ken wrote:

...

And Einstein, when told that 2000 Nazi scientists had voted that the theory of relativity was wrong, said 'You cannot vote on what is the truth.'

Haha I knew it! -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

I don't think this qualifies as a trigger of Godwin's law. No participant in the discussion was called a Nazi by another. Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 08 December 2006 12:05, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Dec 8 2006 13:12, ken wrote:

...

And Einstein, when told that 2000 Nazi scientists had voted that the theory of relativity was wrong, said 'You cannot vote on what is the truth.'

Haha I knew it! -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

I don't think this qualifies as a trigger of Godwin's law. No participant in the discussion was called a Nazi by another.

Randall Schulz So, if I understand the wikipedia article, if I call everyone involved with this discussion (except me of course) I lose automaticly and this

Randall R Schulz wrote: thread ends? Good! you're all post nazis!!! -- One day at a time, one second if that's what it takes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 8 2006 09:33, John Andersen wrote:

On Friday 08 December 2006 08:00, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

A perfect example of why democracy sucks. ... (We could re-vote on a regular basis to workaround this.)

So even the denouncer of democracy has nothing to suggest but more democracy!?

If we gonna stay with that mailing list democracy, at least make it more liberal. I can also vote every 4 years or so, as can all the people that have become 18 until then. OTOH, some elders died in that timespan. I say we need re-votes to update the position (as in Real World), _in case we stay with democracy_. That still allows me to prefer a non-democratic approach. -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri December 8 2006 5:09 pm, JB skratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:

On Friday 08 December 2006 11:00, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Dec 8 2006 17:47, Hartmut Meyer wrote:

...

... unless he invites people to vote on this.

And guess what: he did.

And guess again: the majority of voters wanted it the way it is now (the setup you disagree with). Go and search in the archives. It's just a few months ago.

A perfect example of why democracy sucks.

Yeah, give the *minority* what they want or else! sheesh. Go find a little chunk of land somewhere and become a dictator, but don't go telling the rest of us how things *should* be, just because *you* want it that way.

"I want it that way is the only arbiter of truth" .... else we live someone else's lives. OTH , why is death a bar to voting? They even re-register to vote from their coffins in Chi as I recall... Humans are so petty... ;-D -- j Let freedom ring! Let the white dove sing. Let the whole world know that today is the day of reckoning. Let the weak be strong , let the might be wrong , throw the stones away, it's Independence Day. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 08 December 2006 11:57, ken wrote:

On 12/08/2006 11:47 AM somebody named Hartmut Meyer wrote:

...

Hi,

On Friday 08 December 2006 17:05, ken wrote:

...

Advocates of the nonsensical suse method of list operations have told us and continue to tell us (tossing in insults along the way) that they're smarter than the rest of the world and so to change things to a sensible configuration would be making an admission they can't make. So this list will never change and people will never stop pointing out that it should be changed, users will continue to hear that they need to use some particular mail client in some singular way to read and reply to this particular list and that if they don't, they're stupid and all other lists in the world are stupid too.

So we can't harbor any illusions that way this list (mal)functions will change. We're just going to have to live with it

Right. Please "just live with it".

It doesn't really matter what you or I or any other individual is convinced is the right way to do it (and there are arguments for both sides). It also doesn't matter how other list admins run their lists.

What matters is what the list admin of this lists feels is the right setup. Nothing else really. That is unless ...

... unless he invites people to vote on this.

And guess what: he did.

And guess again: the majority of voters wanted it the way it is now (the setup you disagree with). Go and search in the archives. It's just a few months ago.

Stop arguing about this please.

Greetings from Stuhr hartmut

<snip BS>

You have my permission to reply to this. :)

Great! Thank you, oh lord and dictator! Here is my reply, oh dreaded one who would have us whipped with cat-o'-nine tails if we do not follow your orders or question what must only be the correct sense to have in anything: <PLONK> -- Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented worker', is like calling a home intruder an 'unwanted houseguest'. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 11:05 -0500, ken wrote:

On 12/08/2006 01:57 AM somebody named Clayton wrote:

Clayton,

Very well put. I've been on mailing lists since before there was linux, and I've set up and managed dozens of mailing lists, and I'm currently a member of about 40 lists, and over these decades on these various lists, *none* of them functioned/functions the way this one does. (Well, about a decade ago one of them sent replies to the OP, this was pointed out to the list management, and it was fixed in a day.) Advocates of the nonsensical suse method of list operations have told us and continue to tell us (tossing in insults along the way) that they're smarter than the rest of the world and so to change things to a sensible configuration would be making an admission they can't make. So this list will never change and people will never stop pointing out that it should be changed, users will continue to hear that they need to use some particular mail client in some singular way to read and reply to this particular list and that if they don't, they're stupid and all other lists in the world are stupid too.

Thirty people jumped off of a cliff and killed themselves does this mean it is the right thing to do? Just because thirty other lists don't want to use the proper headers for lists doesn't make them right and this one wrong. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* John Andersen [12-08-06 00:13]:

So pop gmail with kmail. Reply via smtp thru gmail.

NO, smtp thru your own provider or someone _other_ than gmail so you can see your own posts. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

...

X-Mailinglist: opensuse List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org <<<<<<<<------------<<< List-Help: mailto:opensuse+help@opensuse.org List-Subscribe: mailto:opensuse+subscribe@opensuse.org List-Unsubscribe: mailto:opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org List-Owner: mailto:opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

KMail knows how to handle a list.

Is this even portable? LKML sets this one X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 07/12/06, Stelian Iancu wrote:

In GMail, you can press Reply-All and manually remove the personal address.

Thanks for the tip. -- Michael Leuty Nottingham, UK -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Nikolic wrote:

On Thursday 07 December 2006 18:31, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

...

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 08:51:11 -0800 From: Randall R Schulz To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: [opensuse] NO PERSONAL REPLIES TO POSTINGS ON THIS LIST!!

On Thursday 07 December 2006 08:44, you wrote:

...

its workin fine here.

For god's sake, stop sending me direct replies.

You have to be subscribed to post, hence its always completely redundant to send a direct copy in a reply.

Desist!

Fix the mailing list.

-`J' --

NOWT wrong with the list it's the crappy mail programs at fault and bone idle people that only understand the windBloZe way i spose i could say with consumate ease and safety RFTM in which ever of the 2 variants i know of you choose to pick ..

Pete

Kmail 1.9.3 with no list mail problems at all and member of around 15 lists ..

Surely, some self-discipline needed here? I always try to ensure that, in my Thunderbird compose screen, the Reply-to and to addresses are always the list. It would be great if TB did it for me but once you get into the habit it comes pretty easily I find. BTW, I checked this reply VERY carefully :-) J NB a bad workman blames his tools, does a lazy programmer blame Windoze? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* ken [12-07-06 18:44]:

Gee, thank you, all-caps, extra exclamation points, angry guy for bringing up this thread again and for so vituperatively insisting that 2000+ people here change their email clients and then configure those mail clients just for the way this one, lonely mailing list is set up and which is different than all the other mailing lists in the world.

and _you_ only show what _you_ know.... -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 07 December 2006 10:44, Hoper Edei Deixai wrote:

... But why the hell the list manager doesn't set reply-to header to the list? I've been member of many ML in ten years and recently I see that this simple measure is no more taken. Is this to mitigate spamming? --

Because then people who want to use the Reply-To header, which belongs to message originators, _not_ list reflectors, cannot do so.

Hoper (aka QED)

RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos F Lange wrote:

On Thursday 07 December 2006 11:44, Hoper Edei Deixai wrote:

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But why the hell the list manager doesn't set reply-to header to the list?

It should not be set. Everyone that managed a mailing-list long enough knows what happens when Reply-To is set to the list and the vacation season comes. Someone sets those automatic replies telling you that they are at some beach and will return a month later. The response goes to the list and starts an infinite loop.

Any decent mailing list software will filter out these messages. Get a better mailing list software if that happens. I'm on dozens of mailing list that _have_ the reply-to field set and this doesn't happen there. That's not the reason for not setting the Reply-To. The reason is that the poster cannot set it. That said -- I don't care about the configuration this list, as I read it via gmane-NNTP anyhow, and there I have proper Newsgroup functionality. :-) Cheers, Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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"JE" == Jan Engelhardt writes:

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[vacation messages sent to lists]

Any decent mailing list software will filter out these messages. Get a better mailing list software if that happens.

JE> Or better yet: have the user configure their mail blurb in a way JE> so that it does not autoreply to lists, which would be the overall JE> best solution! To rely on every person to configure their mail environment correctly is not a solution, IMNSHO. One needs to tackle that on the one place where one can address the problem; at the mailing list software. To quote Jon Postel in RFC 761, the TCP definition from Januay 1980, the last two lines on page 12: be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others. Words to keep in mind, they served us well in more than 25 years -- RIP Jon Postel. Actually, your email -- that you replied to me personally as well with this general discussion remark, and not only to the list as would have been proper -- showed clearly that it's of no use to rely on end users to get replies to the list right. This is a matter for mailing list software; it can be and is done properly on many mailing lists, but not on opensuse-*. QED. Regards, Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 8 2006 02:04, Joachim Schrod wrote:

To quote Jon Postel in RFC 761, the TCP definition from Januay 1980, the last two lines on page 12:

be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others.

Words to keep in mind, they served us well in more than 25 years -- RIP Jon Postel.

You know where this RFC attitude brought us - Web browsers accepting broken HTML, resulting in sloppy non-standard pages that display in less than average of the browsers. Especially when it comes to security, e.g. firewalls, it's better to turn the RFC quote: Be conservative in what you accept and be liberal in what you do. [http://jengelh.hopto.org/p/jen_ipfw/TECH.txt] Meaning: block all network packets that could potentially be harm and pro-actively try to stop any spammer using non-compliant probing techniques. -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Dec 8 2006 12:21, Joachim Schrod wrote:

JE> You know where this RFC attitude brought us - Web browsers accepting JE> broken HTML, resulting in sloppy non-standard pages that display in JE> less than average of the browsers. JE> Especially when it comes to JE> security, e.g. firewalls, it's better to turn the RFC quote:

JE> Be conservative in what you accept and be JE> liberal in what you do. JE> [http://jengelh.hopto.org/p/jen_ipfw/TECH.txt]

Be liberal in what you do?

E.g., allowing broken IP packets to leave one's network? E.g., with spoofed source IP addresses? E.g., allowing outgoing IRC packets for all systems?

Well, while not spoofing stuff. Locking out spammers is a simple combination of randomly replying and not-replying to their packets. That does not imply any of the three examples above.

And you tell me that my attitude brings us bad HTML pages?

Partly. One problem is that RFCs have too many SHOULDs in them rather than MUSTs. Another problem is that implementations sometimes don't even obey the SHOULDs and implement something as COULDs. (This is probably what I really intended to say.)

Your attitude helps to build bot networks and hackers.

What's bad in slowing down unwanted nmap scans?

PS: Please reply to the list. I don't consider this a private discussion.

PS: I did Reply-To-All (it's gone to both), since I don't yet have the procmail recipe in. -`J' -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 08 December 2006 05:21, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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"JE" == Jan Engelhardt writes:

JE> On Dec 8 2006 02:04, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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To quote Jon Postel in RFC 761, the TCP definition from Januay 1980, the last two lines on page 12:

be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others.

Words to keep in mind, they served us well in more than 25 years -- RIP Jon Postel.

JE> You know where this RFC attitude brought us - Web browsers accepting JE> broken HTML, resulting in sloppy non-standard pages that display in JE> less than average of the browsers.

And, so what? It made the Internet usable for millions of users. And, for the record, I think that's a Good Thing(tm). I'm again that elitism that would have prevented my mother, aged 71, to be able to learn sending emails and surfing the Net three years ago when she retired. She will never understand that there's a difference between a Web browser and a Mail client, that's completely blurred to her, it's all `that Internet thingy' -- but so what? Who cares, as long as she can communicate with her relatives?

So it's better to just hop out to the computer store and get an old person a $600 phone (re computer)? My mom's 68, and she pays attention to what I explain about something like this and then corrects her behavior. She doesn't want to just have a $600 phone, she also wants to do many other things with a computer...and does! All you're perpetuating is laziness, stupidity and sloppiness, by telling anyone who has the money to just 'go get a computer and screw how things are and should be done, just do whatever the hell you want and be a grinning happy idiot'. -- Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented worker', is like calling a home intruder an 'unwanted houseguest'. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 07 December 2006 19:04, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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"JE" == Jan Engelhardt writes:

[vacation messages sent to lists]

Any decent mailing list software will filter out these messages. Get a better mailing list software if that happens.

JE> Or better yet: have the user configure their mail blurb in a way JE> so that it does not autoreply to lists, which would be the overall JE> best solution!

To rely on every person to configure their mail environment correctly is not a solution, IMNSHO. One needs to tackle that on the one place where one can address the problem; at the mailing list software.

So the app programmer has to make those who aren't lazy or stupid, pay by making an app just *for* lazy and stupid people? Doesn't that just condone and perpetuate laziness and stupidity? -- Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented worker', is like calling a home intruder an 'unwanted houseguest'. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

JB wrote:

On Thursday 07 December 2006 19:04, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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> "JE" == Jan Engelhardt writes:

[vacation messages sent to lists]

Any decent mailing list software will filter out these messages. Get a better mailing list software if that happens.

JE> Or better yet: have the user configure their mail blurb in a way JE> so that it does not autoreply to lists, which would be the overall JE> best solution!

To rely on every person to configure their mail environment correctly is not a solution, IMNSHO. One needs to tackle that on the one place where one can address the problem; at the mailing list software.

So the app programmer has to make those who aren't lazy or stupid, pay by making an app just *for* lazy and stupid people? Doesn't that just condone and perpetuate laziness and stupidity?

Of course, I hope that laziness is perpetuated. Every good programmer is lazy, that's why he writes programs - to let computers do the work that I abhor. Why should I do something that a computer can do as well? And if you think that `the need to avoid thinking how to use an application because it Just Works(tm)' is `perpetuating stupidity' because the users are not forced to think deeply how to use their MUA any more -- well, yes, then I'm for perpetuating stupidity as well. I don't think that this kind of thinking is time well spent and I would rather read a good book instead. When I read these kind of arguments, I understand why Apple users are so snobists when they look at Linux -- and they are right, damned! Joachim PS: As I wrote already, the solution is actually to use gmane, where a sane interface as a newsgroup is available. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org