Re: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

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AndyYankovich

28 Feb 2005 28 Feb '05

19:02

Andre Truter wrote:

...

Anyway, I think that Linux is wonderful, especially if you think that this is software written and maintained mostly by people doint it in thier free time and it competes with software written by people that get paid to do it. I am quite happy with Linux, and if something does not work, then I can help out by trying to fix it.

...

Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org

Well guys, Linux is a wonderful piece of work **if you are a software engineer**. But for one who is not an engineer of any kind, one who used Windows only when Win95 came out because it was easier than DOS, etc., and one who like many, many *new computer users* had no one sitting next to them (like at work) to teach the little things of how to do anything, I feel Linux won't get to be mainstream until Linux becomes standardized and much more user friendly with live tech support. I used Mandrake 10.1 first, gave up on that, then bought and installed SuSE 9.2. I had no trouble installing it and in understanding how to use the basic functions. But other *little* things have me stumped - like how to install a software (firefox) upgrade when it isn't in RPM format. And a lot of functions in the same "class" of differentness (a word?) where I have trouble finding documentation explaining how to do it. I am fairly intelligent, can read, and understand things. I was able to go from Win 95 to Win XP Pro by myself and get to a point where I could help others with their Windows problems. BUT, after a few months in SuSE 9.2, I don't think I will ever get to that point in Linux. I know I used to spend hours on the phone waiting to talk to a Microsoft tech support *live* human being. But it was worth it because I got specific answers to my specific question. I was willing to spend money to get the answers because I wanted to "use a computer". Simple reason, but one that was totally achievable with Windows and *live* tech support. IMHO only, THIS is where Linux needs to change. How on earth can a person like me begin to truly "understand" how Linux works if I cannot *talk* to someone who will lead me to even *ask* the *right* questions? I will pay for the help. But where do I get the help? I am quite serious about this post. Please feel free to contact me directly by email if you know answers to this. I have tried to find someone who is willing to spend time - for a fee - with me on the telephone to answer questions as they come up. I know of at least two other people who would do the same thing. I got them to try Linux, but they went back to Windows. This is the kind of help we new Linux users need. Thanks for listening. Andy PS: Another thing. I just tried to print out this email before I sent it to be sure it said what I wanted to say. Can't figure out how to print it before I send it. I saved it as a draft but still can't print it out. I am using Evolution in SuSE Pro 9.2. Andy

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Mike McMullin

28 Feb 28 Feb

17:06

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 14:02, AndyYankovich wrote:

...

Andre Truter wrote:

...
Anyway, I think that Linux is wonderful, especially if you think that this is software written and maintained mostly by people doint it in thier free time and it competes with software written by people that get paid to do it. I am quite happy with Linux, and if something does not work, then I can help out by trying to fix it.

--

...
Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org

Well guys, Linux is a wonderful piece of work **if you are a software engineer**.

Hi Andy, I'm not a software engineer, and my programming is not what it could be. I like Linux, and I hate Linux. I like it for it's cost effectiveness and good application base. I hate it because what I want to do is well over my current skill levels. I also hate it when I have to go to work and deal with Win2k. I keep trying to do stuff in Windows that I can do in Linux, like side widening a window or mounting a remote disk as a directory and not a drive.

...

But for one who is not an engineer of any kind, one who used Windows only when Win95 came out because it was easier than DOS, etc., and one who like many, many *new computer users* had no one sitting next to them (like at work) to teach the little things of how to do anything, I feel Linux won't get to be mainstream until Linux becomes standardized and much more user friendly with live tech support.

I started with Corel Linux, which really did a good job of making Linux friendly towards todays calibre of Windows user. I've been tinkering a bit with Xandros, which has a community version which can be dl'ed with bit-torrent. It's easier than Windows to set up, and easy to use as well.

...

I used Mandrake 10.1 first, gave up on that, then bought and installed SuSE 9.2. I had no trouble installing it and in understanding how to use the basic functions. But other *little* things have me stumped - like how to install a software (firefox) upgrade when it isn't in RPM format. And a lot of functions in the same "class" of differentness (a word?) where I have trouble finding documentation explaining how to do it.

I am fairly intelligent, can read, and understand things. I was able to go from Win 95 to Win XP Pro by myself and get to a point where I could help others with their Windows problems. BUT, after a few months in SuSE 9.2, I don't think I will ever get to that point in Linux.

I know I used to spend hours on the phone waiting to talk to a Microsoft tech support *live* human being. But it was worth it because I got specific answers to my specific question. I was willing to spend money to get the answers because I wanted to "use a computer". Simple reason, but one that was totally achievable with Windows and *live* tech support. IMHO only, THIS is where Linux needs to change.

SuSE offers this kind of support on a per incident basis.

...

How on earth can a person like me begin to truly "understand" how Linux works if I cannot *talk* to someone who will lead me to even *ask* the *right* questions? I will pay for the help. But where do I get the help?

I am quite serious about this post. Please feel free to contact me directly by email if you know answers to this.

I have tried to find someone who is willing to spend time - for a fee - with me on the telephone to answer questions as they come up. I know of at least two other people who would do the same thing. I got them to try Linux, but they went back to Windows. This is the kind of help we new Linux users need.

Thanks for listening. Andy

PS: Another thing. I just tried to print out this email before I sent it to be sure it said what I wanted to say. Can't figure out how to print it before I send it. I saved it as a draft but still can't print it out. I am using Evolution in SuSE Pro 9.2. Andy

You've come to the right place to ask questions and get answers. Why not start a new thread describing your printing problems? Mike

Jerry Feldman

18:18

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

Just my $.02US. I am a software engineer who has been using Unix for 25 years... And Linux since about 1993. Some of the real advances in GNU/Linux over the past few years have been the GUIs, KDE and GNOME. For the most part, when configured properly, most Windows users should be able to use them. I like YaST because it makes the management of the workstation straightforward, much like the Windows control panel. (Although I am just as conmfortable updating the config files). One of the things that makes Linux powerful, is all the choices you have. But, this is also very intimidating. It's a real tradeoff. Other than YaST, another thing I like about SuSE (Professional) is that the distro includes just about everything on the media. In contrast, distributions like Linspire and Mandrake are targeted primarily toward the desktop users. I'm going to leave it at this. Linux today is still not for everyone, but is getting much closer. And, as Linux becomes more established inside of the big corporations either as the standard desktop as it is with Novell, or as an acceptable desktop, the major distros, like SuSE will improve (from the standpoint of a Windows user) the desktop to appeal to a wider audience. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

Joe Morris (NTM)

17:21

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

...

I had no trouble installing it and in understanding how to use the basic functions. But other *little* things have me stumped - like how to install a software (firefox) upgrade when it isn't in RPM format. This is not basic. It does require one to understand quite a bit. Most simple put, on a rpm based system, always use rpm packages. And a lot of functions in the same "class" of differentness (a word?) where I have trouble finding documentation explaining how to do it. Try "man xxx" meaning manual page for xxx command. This is an amazing

...

I am fairly intelligent, can read, and understand things. I was able to go from Win 95 to Win XP Pro by myself and get to a point where I could help others with their Windows problems. BUT, after a few months in SuSE 9.2, You cannot compare apples to oranges. To go from one VERSION of a

AndyYankovich wrote: part of Linux over Windows. You CAN find help for almost everything via its manual page. I cannot find anywhere near the same amount of info for Windows. particular OS to another is no comparison to a different OS altogether, and I would guess your Windows experience was more than a few months.

...

I don't think I will ever get to that point in Linux. That depends on you. You will if you give it time and learn. I know I used to spend hours on the phone waiting to talk to a Microsoft tech support *live* human being. But it was worth it because I got specific answers to my specific question. You were unusually blessed then, first I've heard about. How on earth can a person like me begin to truly "understand" how Linux works if I cannot *talk* to someone who will lead me to even *ask* the *right* questions? This forum is IMHO one of the best, and has helped quite a few 'mature' in there Linux experience. But where do I get the help? Here to start, google is another amazing resource, and unlike Windows, you can contact the actual author of the program and get help. It has been my experience Linux has much more help available than Windows, but you may need to learn how to get at it. I have tried to find someone who is willing to spend time - for a fee - with me on the telephone to answer questions as they come up. I know of at least two other people who would do the same thing. AFAIK, SuSE offers this. -- Joe Morris New Tribes Mission Email Address: Joe_Morris@ntm.org Registered Linux user 231871

Graham Smith

17:35

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 06:02, AndyYankovich wrote: ------Clipped--------

...

I have tried to find someone who is willing to spend time - for a fee - with me on the telephone to answer questions as they come up. I know of at least two other people who would do the same thing. I got them to try Linux, but they went back to Windows. This is the kind of help we new Linux users need.

As you do not specify which country you are in I suggest to look to see if there is a Linux User Group (LUG) in your area. They generally have meetings monthly (well here at least). This supposedly lists a the LUG's in the world, if you can't find anything there try doing a google search for 'LUG' http://lugww.counter.li.org/groups.cms -- Regards, Graham Smith ---------------------------------------------------------

Mike

18:09

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:02:55 -0800, AndyYankovich wrote:

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[... snip ...]

...

Thanks for listening. Andy

Andy, Alot of people have already replied to your post, so I'll just append my sentiments onto it... I feel much of your frustration, and I am a software developer. I get pissed when I can't just *do* something, and have to investigate my options, maybe jump through a hoop or two, to get something that I would deem 'simple' to work. Even as a software developer and a "lover of technology", I sometimes want to be 'just a user' and get something non-technical done (such as draft an email and print it in evolution (which you can do, btw, by opening your drafts folder, right clicking the item you want to print, and selecting 'print' from the context menu :) ) Fact is, though, you have to get some enjoyment or benefit from going this route that outweighs the extra work you put in. There are several other operating systems that you can use and just 'get things done'... Windows is one, OS X is another... The benefit that Linux brings to the table is cost savings and options, tons of options... imho, it's the options part of it that causes all the headaches... there are alot of choices when running linux, whether it's running an rpm or a dpkg based system, which desktop you use, which kernel you run, etc. etc. etc... If you want bleeding edge changes in your software, you can have it... it might not be available through the normal route, but it's there for you (upgrading firefox to the latest and greatest pre-rpm availability) if you so choose to go for it... Windows has it's benefits... it's more user friendly, it's developed from a central source, it generally 'just works'... however, your choices are limited. Outside of third party applications, you're generally stuck with what MS gives you, or allows you to have... you still have to wait for someone to compile and create an installation routine for software, so no latest and greatest for you, unless they distribute windows source and you have a compiler (which can cost, if they use something like Visual C++ or one of the many commercial packages) I think you know why you came to Linux in the first place, and now you just have to decide whether it's worth sticking on, through the minor headaches... possibly change some of your choices, opting for ease of use (only install those packages available through yast, for example)... stick with 'supported' configs, and find yourself a good help group... This list is one of the best that I've seen, I've had nothing but great experience with the users on this list. Forums are good (linuxquestions.org, for example), and the best resource I've found to date is your local LUG... ours meets once a week in a social atmosphere, but quickly erupts into a geek-convention that can only be matched by a star-trek convention as soon as someone mentions a problem with their linux box... linux generally has a great community, sometimes you can run across the elitist pricks, but don't let that get you down. I'm not a linux god, but I've got a fair level of knowledge in it. Contact me via email and I'd be happy to provide what support I can, or help direct you to the resources that can help you... after a while of knowing where to find the information you seek, you'll be quite self sufficient in running and *using* linux. just my .02 Mike

AndyYankovich

1 Mar 1 Mar

16:37

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Mon, 2005-02-28 at 10:09 -0800, Mike wrote:

...

I think you know why you came to Linux in the first place, and now you just have to decide whether it's worth sticking on, through the minor headaches... possibly change some of your choices, opting for ease of use (only install those packages available through yast, for example)... stick with 'supported' configs, and find yourself a good help group... This list is one of the best that I've seen, I've had nothing but great experience with the users on this list.

Hey guys, THANK YOU ALL. Wow! What a response. I'm very grateful to you all. And you are correct. There *is* a reason I came to Linux in the first place, and I momentarily forgot that. Simply put, I was frustrated and lost perspective. I will contact LUGs in my Central FLorida area, and I will re-read all your replies again...and again - as a reminder to keep my head and attitude properly positioned. As a retired 70 year old, I now have something exciting to wake up to every morning. Thanks everybody. God Bless you all - or as in my redneck county, "y'all" Andy

Mike

28 Feb 28 Feb

19:26

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Monday 28 February 2005 14:02, AndyYankovich wrote:

...

Andre Truter wrote: (like at work) to teach the little things of how to do anything, I feel Linux won't get to be mainstream until Linux becomes standardized and much more user friendly with live tech support.

I found the tech support terrible when I was using a windows box, Dell would say it was MS's fault and MS would say it's an OEM so call Dell. SuSE 7.2 didn't have any trouble with my hardware so I switched and haven't looked back. Because linux offers more choices is it much harder to have a 'standard desktop'.

...

I used Mandrake 10.1 first, gave up on that, then bought and installed SuSE 9.2. I had no trouble installing it and in understanding how to use the basic functions. But other *little* things have me stumped - like how to install a software (firefox) upgrade when it isn't in RPM format. And a lot of functions in the same "class" of differentness (a word?) where I have trouble finding documentation explaining how to do it.

I am fairly intelligent, can read, and understand things. I was able to go from Win 95 to Win XP Pro by myself and get to a point where I could help others with their Windows problems. BUT, after a few months in SuSE 9.2, I don't think I will ever get to that point in Linux.

I used to feel that way, but after reading enough and trying different things I now answer questions, and the questions I ask take longer to get answers (ie why do I get 10.64.64.64 when I run /etc/rc.d/network restart).

...

I know I used to spend hours on the phone waiting to talk to a Microsoft tech support *live* human being. But it was worth it because I got specific answers to my specific question. I was willing to spend money to get the answers because I wanted to "use a computer". Simple reason, but one that was totally achievable with Windows and *live* tech support. IMHO only, THIS is where Linux needs to change.

...

How on earth can a person like me begin to truly "understand" how Linux works if I cannot *talk* to someone who will lead me to even *ask* the *right* questions? I will pay for the help. But where do I get the help?

This is where the local linux users groups fit in. My local LUG has monthly meetings, several mailing lists, and an an irc channel to provide support. Commercial help is available, but is seems reserved for commercial users who will pay the big bucks for it.

...

Thanks for listening. Andy

PS: Another thing. I just tried to print out this email before I sent it to be sure it said what I wanted to say. Can't figure out how to print it before I send it. I saved it as a draft but still can't print it out. I am using Evolution in SuSE Pro 9.2. Andy

Ctrl-P prints in kmail -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca

Kevin Donnelly

20:52

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Monday 28 Feb 2005 19:02, AndyYankovich wrote:

...

Well guys, Linux is a wonderful piece of work **if you are a software engineer**.

Sorry, this is demonstrably not true - I have several people using Linux for day-to-day things who just want a computer; they are not software engineers. If you have just recently started using Linux, it can seem like a bit of a change, but my number one rule for new users is DON'T GET ADVENTUROUS. That is, just use what is installed by default for 3 months until you know your way around. Don't start upgrading your kernel, or even upgrading any packages until you know you need them, and feel confident enough to experiment. Even at that point, stick to installing rpms at first, rather than compiling from source. SUSE is a good choice here, because if you get the Pro version, you will have virtually all the software you need.

...

But for one who is not an engineer of any kind, one who used Windows only when Win95 came out because it was easier than DOS, etc., and one who like many, many *new computer users* had no one sitting next to them (like at work) to teach the little things of how to do anything, I feel Linux won't get to be mainstream until Linux becomes standardized and much more user friendly with live tech support.

Linux IS standardised - but its standard differs slightly from the one you're used to in Windows. If that is a real problem, you need to stick to Windows.

...

I used Mandrake 10.1 first, gave up on that, then bought and installed SuSE 9.2. I had no trouble installing it and in understanding how to use the basic functions. But other *little* things have me stumped - like how to install a software (firefox) upgrade when it isn't in RPM format. And a lot of functions in the same "class" of differentness (a word?) where I have trouble finding documentation explaining how to do it.

Why do you need the upgrade? If it's just for boasting rights, there's no point. If it's for security or other reasons (eg a webapp will only work with the latest version), then it repays a bit of time invested in reading, asking questions on lists like this, etc. A Firefox rpm (v1.0-6.1) is available at http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/linux/suse/apt/SuSE/9.2-i386/RPMS.update/. If you are using a Firefox package from the Mozilla site, the following instructions are one way of getting it running. 1 Download installer pack from www.mozilla.org, untar, and change to the resulting firefox-installer dir. 2 Open a terminal, type: sux [Return], and give your root password when asked. (Graphical superuser access is necessary because the installer uses a graphical install.) Type: mkdir /usr/local/firefox, to create a directory to install it into. 3 Type: ./firefox-installer (that's dot-slash) 4 The installer will open. Choose Forward -> Accept -> Change destination directory (to /usr/local/firefox), and delete the "firefox-installer" left in the location field. Click OK. 5 Choose Forward -> Install 6 At the question about being the default browser, untick the checkbox and click No. 7 Close the graphical installer and press Return at the terminal to get the command prompt back. 8 Type: ln -s /usr/local/firefox/firefox /usr/local/bin/firefox, to link the executable to a directory that is already in your path (or you could adjust the path if you wanted). 9 Press Alt+F2, and type: firefox [Return] to start Firefox as your user. It will ask again about being the default browser (the first time was for the root user, now it is for your user). Again, untick the checkbox and click No (unless you want to make it the default browser, of course - I prefer to keep Konqueror as the default because it is better integrated with the KDE desktop). Close Firefox again. 10 In the terminal, still as sux, type: cp /usr/lib/browser-plugins/* /usr/local/firefox/plugins, to copy the existing plugins to a location where Firefox can use them (you could also create symbolic links, but this is quickest for you). Close the terminal. 11 Right-click the desktop, and select Create New -> File -> Link to Application. Click on the icon to change it, select Other Icons, and navigate to /usr/local/firefox/icons. Select the largest Firefox icon. Fill in Firefox in text box, and then click the Execute tab and fill in firefox as the Command. Click OK, and you should now have an icon on the desktop - click it to open Firefox and start browsing.

...

How on earth can a person like me begin to truly "understand" how Linux works if I cannot *talk* to someone who will lead me to even *ask* the *right* questions? I will pay for the help. But where do I get the help?

You have to read your way into it slowly, and ask relevant questions on places like this list. Don't forget how much time you have already invested in learning about *Windows* quirks and idiosyncracies (and IMHO Windows is not as "intuitive" as people say - all they mean is that they got used to the ways in which it does things).

...

PS: Another thing. I just tried to print out this email before I sent it to be sure it said what I wanted to say. Can't figure out how to print it before I send it. I saved it as a draft but still can't print it out. I am using Evolution in SuSE Pro 9.2.

Have you set up your printer? This is necessary even in Windows! YaST -> Hardware -> Printer. If you have, did you print out a test sheet during the setup? Was that OK? When you use (eg in KMail) File -> Print, does the printer you set up earlier appear in the list? If not, do you have a HP all-in-one printer? In that case, if you rebooted after setting up the printer, the ptal service which these printers need is not started by default (this is in my view a bug in YaST). Go to YaST -> System -> Runlevel Editor and check that there is a Yes against both cups (the print service) and ptal (the HP service) - if not, select each and click Enable, and then Finish. If none of this helps, you need to be more specific about your problem. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD!

Andre Truter

21:49

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:52:01 +0000, Kevin Donnelly wrote:

...

On Monday 28 Feb 2005 19:02, AndyYankovich wrote:

...
Well guys, Linux is a wonderful piece of work **if you are a software engineer**.

Sorry, this is demonstrably not true - I have several people using Linux for day-to-day things who just want a computer; they are not software engineers.

Yes, I can vouch for that. I am in the process of setting up a small network for a client, but they were impatient and asked for only one machine to be set up and delivered so that they can start to work on it. So I installed one machine with SuSE 9.2 and I did not do a lot of the tweaking that I want to do, due to time contratint. The machine that they got was basically a standard setup. The next day they called about problems with a memory stick, but they had a power failule before I could help them. They said they will call back. That was a week ago and they have not yet called back. Tonight I spoke to one of the managers and asked him if they are using the system. He said they were very happy. They figured out what they needed on thier own and are using the system. Now these are users that were sceptical about using Linux. One guy mentioned that it took him a long time to learn how to use Excell and he does not want to learn how to use new software. Well, he found his way around Linux within a week. The people using the machine are not engineers or anything technical, they are managers and buisness people. To me this means that Linux is easy to use. But, yes, if you are going to fiddle under the bonnet, don't complain when you get oil on your clothes. -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

John B

1 Mar 1 Mar

07:17

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Monday 28 February 2005 13:02, AndyYankovich wrote: <snip>

...

Well guys, Linux is a wonderful piece of work **if you are a software engineer**.

But for one who is not an engineer of any kind, one who used Windows only when Win95 came out because it was easier than DOS, etc., and one who like many, many *new computer users* had no one sitting next to them (like at work) to teach the little things of how to do anything, I feel Linux won't get to be mainstream until Linux becomes standardized and much more user friendly with live tech support.

Funny...I'm no "engineer" of *any* kind. Nor am I a programmer of any kind. Hell, I can't even figure out how to write a simple bash script. I got my first computer with W95 on it, just as you did. I had it in my home, since I was a construction carpenter there was no need for me to have a computer at work. No one sat next to me and taught me *anything*. I had to learn how to work the darn thing on my own. 5 years of putting up with Winduhs' shit, I literally switched to Linux. Guess what...I had to learn that on my own too. What I'm seeing in your post above, is just laziness on *your* part to put your brain to a little use and figure things out a little bit, and ask questions. Kinda the proof I need when I tell my friends the generations of people 10 years younger than me and downward are just getting lazy and plain stupid. <snip rest unread> John B

Hartmut Meyer

09:14

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

Hi, On Monday 28 February 2005 20:02, AndyYankovich wrote:

...

I know I used to spend hours on the phone waiting to talk to a Microsoft tech support *live* human being. But it was worth it because I got specific answers to my specific question. I was willing to spend money to get the answers because I wanted to "use a computer". Simple reason, but one that was totally achievable with Windows and *live* tech support. IMHO only, THIS is where Linux needs to change.

You can have that with SUSE Linux as well: http://www.novell.com/products/linuxprofessional/support/advanced.html That's a paid serviec for matters beyond the linited scope of the "free" installation support. And you wouldn't even have to wait hours on the line before you can talk to somebody. Greetings from Stuhr hartmut

Kevanf1

10:09

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:14:00 +0100, Hartmut Meyer wrote:

...

Hi,

On Monday 28 February 2005 20:02, AndyYankovich wrote:

...
I know I used to spend hours on the phone waiting to talk to a Microsoft tech support *live* human being. But it was worth it because I got specific answers to my specific question. I was willing to spend money to get the answers because I wanted to "use a computer". Simple reason, but one that was totally achievable with Windows and *live* tech support. IMHO only, THIS is where Linux needs to change.

You can have that with SUSE Linux as well:

http://www.novell.com/products/linuxprofessional/support/advanced.html

That's a paid serviec for matters beyond the linited scope of the "free" installation support.

And you wouldn't even have to wait hours on the line before you can talk to somebody.

Greetings from Stuhr hartmut

I think the big problem is that some people come to Linux expecting the same as they did from Window$. I first sat at a PC back in 1992. I was truly scared witless that if I touched the wrong button it would blow up. After a few years I was flying around the thing. I was upgrading, adding both software and hardware and much more tinkering. I feel that people have to accept that Linux is different and they have the learning curve again. It will come and it can be both frustrating and incredibly interesting at the same time. The best thing is that 99.9% of the time Linux will not let you do something the wrong way, the insecure way as Window$ inevitably will. This is why Linux is more secure and more stable. Just enjoy and learn. -- Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

Chris Carlen

15:29

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

Kevanf1 wrote:

...

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 10:14:00 +0100, Hartmut Meyer wrote:

...
Hi,

On Monday 28 February 2005 20:02, AndyYankovich wrote:

...
I know I used to spend hours on the phone waiting to talk to a Microsoft tech support *live* human being. But it was worth it because I got specific answers to my specific question. I was willing to spend money to get the answers because I wanted to "use a computer". Simple reason, but one that was totally achievable with Windows and *live* tech support. IMHO only, THIS is where Linux needs to change. You can have that with SUSE Linux as well:

http://www.novell.com/products/linuxprofessional/support/advanced.html

That's a paid serviec for matters beyond the linited scope of the "free" installation support.

And you wouldn't even have to wait hours on the line before you can talk to somebody.

Greetings from Stuhr hartmut

I think the big problem is that some people come to Linux expecting the same as they did from Window$. I first sat at a PC back in 1992. I was truly scared witless that if I touched the wrong button it would blow up. After a few years I was flying around the thing. I was upgrading, adding both software and hardware and much more tinkering. I feel that people have to accept that Linux is different and they have the learning curve again. It will come and it can be both frustrating and incredibly interesting at the same time. The best thing is that 99.9% of the time Linux will not let you do something the wrong way, the insecure way as Window$ inevitably will. This is why Linux is more secure and more stable.

I beg to differ. Linux will let you do anything you want, secure or insecure. Right way or wrong way. It's your choice. That's the point. That's also the reason that folks with little technical understanding of computer and OS architecture are potentially able to get into even more trouble with Linux. Or just not be able to use it at all. Change your global umask to 000 and see how secure your system is. Will Linux stop you? How many "ordinary" people would have any idea whether their box connected directly to the internet is properly firewalled or not? Let's see how many folks even on this list can get fonts to display right on Suse Linux. Most probably don't even know they aren't displaying right when they say "looks Ok to me." Turn of AA and use a flat panel display, and you'll realize that something isn't quite right. Good day! -- ____________________________________ Christopher R. Carlen Principal Laser/Optical Technologist Sandia National Laboratories CA USA crcarle@sandia.gov

Kevanf1

2 Mar 2 Mar

15:13

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 07:29:24 -0800, Chris Carlen wrote:

...

I beg to differ. Linux will let you do anything you want, secure or insecure. Right way or wrong way. It's your choice. That's the point. That's also the reason that folks with little technical understanding of computer and OS architecture are potentially able to get into even more trouble with Linux. Or just not be able to use it at all.

Well I have a good few years of university level technical support under my belt...but....it was using Micro$oft software.

...

Change your global umask to 000 and see how secure your system is. Will Linux stop you?

No idea. What does it do? Honestly, I don't know. Should I? Is there a site where I can learn more about security on Linux? I would be very interested to know about it as I feel it in everybodies interests for all of us to have a secure system. This then cuts down on junk traffic (virii etc) which then leaves more bandwidth for everybody.

...

How many "ordinary" people would have any idea whether their box connected directly to the internet is properly firewalled or not?

Again, I don't. On my XP tin I know. Or I believe I do, can I really trust the online tests? Again, genuine question I am not trying to be funny or anything.

...

Let's see how many folks even on this list can get fonts to display right on Suse Linux. Most probably don't even know they aren't displaying right when they say "looks Ok to me." Turn of AA and use a flat panel display, and you'll realize that something isn't quite right.

Well, I do a lot of DTP work and if it looks right on screen - being retired I can't afford a flat panel screen I'm afraid - then it prints right well I can only assume that it is working right. That's what WYSIWYG is all about.

...

Good day!

Snap :-)

...

____________________________________ Christopher R. Carlen Principal Laser/Optical Technologist Sandia National Laboratories CA USA crcarle@sandia.gov

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

-- Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

Randall R Schulz

16:04

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

Kevan, On Wednesday 02 March 2005 07:13, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 07:29:24 -0800, Chris Carlen wrote:

...
...

...
Change your global umask to 000 and see how secure your system is. Will Linux stop you?

No idea. What does it do? Honestly, I don't know. Should I? Is there a site where I can learn more about security on Linux? I would be very interested to know about it as I feel it in everybodies interests for all of us to have a secure system. This then cuts down on junk traffic (virii etc) which then leaves more bandwidth for everybody.

The Unix / Linux concept of the "umask" is probably somewhat obscure, but you really should know about it, especially if you're responsible for administration (of one or more systems). Every time a file system entity (typically either a file or a directory) is created, the program that does so passes an integer argument to the Unix / Linux kernel specifying what permissions it might have. This is a bit-field value that corresponds to the rwxrwxrwx -style mode string printed in the left-most column of an "ls -l" listing. The value passed for this permission is typically "maximal" in the sense that it allows the greatest possible access that makes sense for the kind of entity being created. These values are usually 0666 for plain, non-executable files and 0777 for executable files and directories. (When specified numerically, octal radix is usually used since the bits in a file mode come in groups of 3. Symbolically, these modes are rw-rw-rw- and rwxrwxrwx, resp.) But the kernel does not use the program-supplied mode unchanged. Instead, it turns off the bits from that mode that are set in the umask. This slightly odd-seeming definition makes sense when you consider that it allows cooperative roles between the software, which knows which permission bits are meaningful for the kind of file it's creating (the distinction mostly regarding the execute permission bits), and the user, who knows how permissive they want to be with the files they own. So, to go back to Chris' original point, if you set your umask to 000, then every file you create will have full access to all users. The program (let's say a text editor) will specify 0666 (rw-rw-rw-) and the zero umask will de-assert none of those bits. Your files are readable and writable by everyone who has access to your system (and to the directory in which those files reside). If you're working in a cooperative environment where groups are used to reflect working relationships between various users, then a umask of 002 might be appropriate. Then those files newly created by that text editor would end up with mode 664 (rw-rw-r--). In an environment where a system is shared by users each of whom are working on their own, an appropriate umask might be 022, in which case new plain files would end up with the mode 644 (rw-r--r--). In a paranoid environment where you need to keep your own files private (and not merely safe from tampering), a umask of 044 might be appropriate (or even 055, if you're producing executable files, say, if you're a student using a shared system and taking a programming class). In this case, new plain files would get the mode 0600 (rw-------). The next step is to understand how mode bits are special for directories. I'll leave that tutorial for someone else to write.

...

...

Kevan Farmer

Randall Schulz

Kevin Donnelly

16:48

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Wednesday 02 Mar 2005 16:04, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

The Unix / Linux concept of the "umask" is probably somewhat obscure, but you really should know about it, especially if you're responsible for administration (of one or more systems). <snip>

Very useful summary Randall - thanks. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD!

Chris Carlen

16:45

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

Kevanf1 wrote:

...

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 07:29:24 -0800, Chris Carlen wrote:

...
I beg to differ. Linux will let you do anything you want, secure or insecure. Right way or wrong way. It's your choice. That's the point. That's also the reason that folks with little technical understanding of computer and OS architecture are potentially able to get into even more trouble with Linux. Or just not be able to use it at all.

Well I have a good few years of university level technical support under my belt...but....it was using Micro$oft software.

...
Change your global umask to 000 and see how secure your system is. Will Linux stop you?

Actually I think I meant 777. The umask is NANDed with octal 777 in order to determine the default permissions used to create files. Look here in the shell help:

...

help umask

So the typical umask=022 will cause your default permissions to be: rwxrwxrwx NAND with: ----w--w- You get: rwxr-xr-x but files are not by default created with exec perms, so this is actually what you get for dirs. Files are rw-r--r--

...

No idea. What does it do? Honestly, I don't know. Should I? Is there a site where I can learn more about security on Linux? I would be very interested to know about it as I feel it in everybodies interests for all of us to have a secure system. This then cuts down on junk traffic (virii etc) which then leaves more bandwidth for everybody.

I think there are more important reasons than saving bandwidth to have secure systems.

...

...
How many "ordinary" people would have any idea whether their box connected directly to the internet is properly firewalled or not?

Again, I don't. On my XP tin I know. Or I believe I do, can I really trust the online tests? Again, genuine question I am not trying to be funny or anything.

The online tests are useful, but you can't be sure they are correct. Likely they are correct. Good day! -- ____________________________________ Christopher R. Carlen Principal Laser/Optical Technologist Sandia National Laboratories CA USA crcarle@sandia.gov

Randall R Schulz

17:03

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

Chris, On Wednesday 02 March 2005 08:45, Chris Carlen wrote:

...

Kevanf1 wrote:

...
...

...
Change your global umask to 000 and see how secure your system is. Will Linux stop you?

Actually I think I meant 777. The umask is NANDed with octal 777 in order to determine the default permissions used to create files.

No, you had it right the first time. A umask of 0 is least secure, in that most newly created files end up with mode 666 (rw-rw-rw-) or 777 (rwxrwxrwx).

...

...

Good day!

Randall Schulz

Kevanf1

22:29

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:03:25 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Chris,

On Wednesday 02 March 2005 08:45, Chris Carlen wrote:

...
Kevanf1 wrote:

...
...

...
Change your global umask to 000 and see how secure your system is. Will Linux stop you?

Actually I think I meant 777. The umask is NANDed with octal 777 in order to determine the default permissions used to create files.

No, you had it right the first time. A umask of 0 is least secure, in that most newly created files end up with mode 666 (rw-rw-rw-) or 777 (rwxrwxrwx).

...
...

Good day!

Randall Schulz

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Ah ha :-) I now have a basic grasp of the umask subject. Thanks guys. I am right in assuming the three groupings correspond to owner - group - others ? So that rw_rw_r__ would give read write access to both user and group but only read to others? -- Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

Randall R Schulz

3 Mar 3 Mar

01:26

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

Kevan, On Wednesday 02 March 2005 14:29, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:03:25 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Chris,

On Wednesday 02 March 2005 08:45, Chris Carlen wrote:

...
Kevanf1 wrote:

...
...

...
Change your global umask to 000 and see how secure your system is. Will Linux stop you?

Actually I think I meant 777. The umask is NANDed with octal 777 in order to determine the default permissions used to create files.

The mode assigned to a file is that supplied by the program AND-ed with the negation of the umask. NAND (bitwise or otherwise) is usually interpreted as negating after AND-ing its inputs, which isn't what's happening with file modes.

...

...
No, you had it right the first time. A umask of 0 is least secure, in that most newly created files end up with mode 666 (rw-rw-rw-) or 777 (rwxrwxrwx).

...
...

Good day!

Randall Schulz

Ah ha :-) I now have a basic grasp of the umask subject. Thanks guys. I am right in assuming the three groupings correspond to owner - group - others ? So that rw_rw_r__ would give read write access to both user and group but only read to others?

Yes, that's right. Next check out how directories are special w.r.t. interpretation of modes and then learn about access groups.

...

Kevan Farmer

Randall Schulz

Kevanf1

09:37

New subject: [SLE] Sometimes Linux makes me crazy.

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 17:26:05 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Kevan,

On Wednesday 02 March 2005 14:29, Kevanf1 wrote:

...
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:03:25 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...
Chris,

On Wednesday 02 March 2005 08:45, Chris Carlen wrote:

...
Kevanf1 wrote:

...
...

...
Change your global umask to 000 and see how secure your system is. Will Linux stop you?

Actually I think I meant 777. The umask is NANDed with octal 777 in order to determine the default permissions used to create files.

The mode assigned to a file is that supplied by the program AND-ed with the negation of the umask. NAND (bitwise or otherwise) is usually interpreted as negating after AND-ing its inputs, which isn't what's happening with file modes.

...
...
No, you had it right the first time. A umask of 0 is least secure, in that most newly created files end up with mode 666 (rw-rw-rw-) or 777 (rwxrwxrwx).

...
...

Good day!

Randall Schulz

Ah ha :-) I now have a basic grasp of the umask subject. Thanks guys. I am right in assuming the three groupings correspond to owner - group - others ? So that rw_rw_r__ would give read write access to both user and group but only read to others?

Yes, that's right.

Next check out how directories are special w.r.t. interpretation of modes and then learn about access groups.

...
Kevan Farmer

Randall Schulz

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Will do :-) I have found some thing about it in my SuSE manual. Hopefully there will be a more detailed explanation in a new book I have just treated myself to - 'SuSE 9* Bible'. -- Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

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participants (14)

Andre Truter
AndyYankovich
Chris Carlen
Graham Smith
Hartmut Meyer
Jerry Feldman
Joe Morris (NTM)
John B
Kevanf1
Kevin Donnelly
Mike
Mike
Mike McMullin
Randall R Schulz