[opensuse] openSUSE 13.2 and old xp computer

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jdd

17 Nov 2014 17 Nov '14

12:25

As you may know, default 13.2 installs BTRFS on /. GRUB2 BTRFS driver is pretty large and do not fit on some small first sectors free space, one can find on old XP computers. I had to installt two such computers this week-end. The first I could wipe XP completely and has no problem at all, don't know if the computer could already accept the driver or Yast-install was smart enough to remormat the entire disk (was instructed to use the whole disk), but no problem at all. For the second one, I had to keep XP. Owner was advised that there could be a problem, but that I was curious to see it happen, and accepted to be used as test. installed (45 mn on such an old machine) and grub error... expected one. We could have redone the install with a different partitionning sheme, but a friend of mine suggested a fix. we could connect on the install with a rescue disk, lauch yast and: * shrink a bit more the windows XP partition to allow a /boot one - was even possible to have a primary one. * create an ext3 small partition * copy the old /boot to the new one, * fix the fstab, removing btrfs subvolumes for /boot and replacing them with our one * and use yast to reinstall grub on the new partition. and voilà, the computer booted perfectly both openSUSE (default) or XP... notice: I was unable to change fstab through yast partition module (always some error), but with vi no problem. so, happy we where. Installing without problem is great, but diagnostic a potential problem, hit it and be able to fix the install is even greater :-) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Anton Aylward

17 Nov 17 Nov

13:06

On 11/17/2014 07:25 AM, jdd wrote:

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As you may know, default 13.2 installs BTRFS on /.

GRUB2 BTRFS driver is pretty large and do not fit on some small first sectors free space, one can find on old XP computers.

Please do recall you have options. No-one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use btrFS. The constraints of older machines, lacking BIOS capability, lacking certain instructions, lacking cores, lacking memory and disk space, can still run less demanding file systems and boot methods. You can still install with a root FS of ext2, ext3, or ext4 (or even ReiserFS). So while I congratulate you on your success and do note it, I'd like to remind all and sundry of the "bleedin' obvious, aint it?" that relaxing requirements can avoid a battle, that BtrFs was not included to vex and challenge us. I hope the XP was fully patched! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

jdd

14:36

Le 17/11/2014 14:06, Anton Aylward a écrit :

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So while I congratulate you on your success and do note it, I'd like to remind all and sundry of the "bleedin' obvious, aint it?" that relaxing requirements can avoid a battle, that BtrFs was not included to vex and challenge us.

I hope the XP was fully patched!

XP was not touched, not my bussiness (I just verufied it started). I signaled the case because the error message come at the very end of the install, it's only to avoid starting again. jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

18:44

On 2014-11-17 15:36, jdd wrote:

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Le 17/11/2014 14:06, Anton Aylward a écrit :

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So while I congratulate you on your success and do note it, I'd like to remind all and sundry of the "bleedin' obvious, aint it?" that relaxing requirements can avoid a battle, that BtrFs was not included to vex and challenge us.

I hope the XP was fully patched!

XP was not touched, not my bussiness (I just verufied it started).

I signaled the case because the error message come at the very end of the install, it's only to avoid starting again.

Yes, but you do not have to go with defaults. I would not allow btrfs on an old machine for two reasons: it needs more space (I would start at 50 gigs), and more workload (disk and cpu). I would use ext3 or 4 on root. On the other hand, the solution your friend suggested, creating a /boot partition is correct. But I would create it with ext2 (two). Although no need to shrink /windows, it can be anywhere. Even a logical partition works. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

jdd

19:37

Le 17/11/2014 19:44, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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Yes, but you do not have to go with defaults. I would not allow btrfs on an old machine for two reasons: it needs more space (I would start at 50 gigs), and more workload (disk and cpu). I would use ext3 or 4 on root.

during install parties, I try to avoid as much as possible to change defaults, much easier to maintain afterward

...

On the other hand, the solution your friend suggested, creating a /boot partition is correct. But I would create it with ext2 (two). Although no need to shrink /windows, it can be anywhere. Even a logical partition works.

Is ext2 always available? It was my first idea, but i think I have read than not every system read it :-( what made me glas there is that with Linux there is always a solution, often many. Trys this with the competition :-) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

19:51

On 2014-11-17 20:37, jdd wrote:

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Le 17/11/2014 19:44, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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during install parties, I try to avoid as much as possible to change defaults, much easier to maintain afterward

It is my policy to never stick to the defaults, without checking what they are, and changing whatever I do not like. I write a paper note with what I change.

...

...
On the other hand, the solution your friend suggested, creating a /boot partition is correct. But I would create it with ext2 (two). Although no need to shrink /windows, it can be anywhere. Even a logical partition works.

Is ext2 always available? It was my first idea, but i think I have read than not every system read it :-(

Of course it is available. I do not know of any openSUSE system incapable of using it. Alternatively, you can create ext3/4 without journal. A bit trickier, as you have to type the concoction (it is what is recommended for usb flash sticks). mke2fs -t ext4 -L SOMENAME -O ^has_journal /dev/sdXY

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what made me glas there is that with Linux there is always a solution, often many. Trys this with the competition :-)

Yep. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

Anton Aylward

20:05

On 11/17/2014 02:51 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2014-11-17 20:37, jdd wrote:

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Le 17/11/2014 19:44, Carlos E. R. a écrit : during install parties, I try to avoid as much as possible to change defaults, much easier to maintain afterward

...

It is my policy to never stick to the defaults, without checking what they are, and changing whatever I do not like. I write a paper note with what I change.

if JDD mean its easier to maintain if you know how its configured and taking the defaults means you don't have to think about it, the I see his point. But Carlos has a valid point to. One 'don't have to think about it' approach is to always do it the same way. While I've experimented I've now adopted a simple "always the same way", and that has little to do with how openSuse varies between packages. That being said, I don't do many installs for other people these days. When I used to I always created a little notebook in which I documented the install & config and insisted the user kept it up to date, emphasising that if they didn't they -- and I or whoever came by to help them -- would not know the state of the machine. I was occasionally interesting to see their comments about what they were trying to do. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

jdd

18 Nov 18 Nov

08:03

Le 17/11/2014 21:05, Anton Aylward a écrit :

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if JDD mean its easier to maintain if you know how its configured and taking the defaults means you don't have to think about it, the I see his point. But Carlos has a valid point to.

yes, sure. Don't forget also, I where at a point where I had to promote openSUSE 13.2, so using the *new* default was pretty obvious :-) I also give an appointment to my next Linux User Group meeting to fix or debug if necessary :-). by the way what I fear most is losing new stuf. When one keeps his old habits, most things works, but he miss the new, and possibly good stuff, and get route to problepms. soon or later, we have to go to btrfs, better learn to use it now, where there are alternative Having an uptodate file system was a pretty nice argument at the question "what is different on openSUSE' :-) jdd NB: by the way, new openSUSEs distros works *very well* (mean "surprisingly well" :-) on very old hardware -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

17 Nov 17 Nov

20:27

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2014-11-17 20:37, jdd wrote:

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Le 17/11/2014 19:44, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...
...
On the other hand, the solution your friend suggested, creating a /boot partition is correct. But I would create it with ext2 (two). Although no need to shrink /windows, it can be anywhere. Even a logical partition works.

Is ext2 always available? It was my first idea, but i think I have read than not every system read it :-(

Of course it is available. I do not know of any openSUSE system incapable of using it.

I think the question implies something not true. Let me re-phrase: - Q: Is the ext2 filesystem driver always available in mainstream linux kernels. - A: No, the functionality of the ext2 driver has been incorporated into the ext4 driver, so many kernels now only include the ext4 driver. Of course it provides full backward support so there is no loss of functionality due the ext2 driver being missing. In general only kernels that don't include the ext4 driver should include the older, less well maintained ext2 driver. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

21:00

On 11/17/2014 03:27 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2014-11-17 20:37, jdd wrote:

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Le 17/11/2014 19:44, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...
...
On the other hand, the solution your friend suggested, creating a /boot partition is correct. But I would create it with ext2 (two). Although no need to shrink /windows, it can be anywhere. Even a logical partition works.

Is ext2 always available? It was my first idea, but i think I have read than not every system read it :-(

Of course it is available. I do not know of any openSUSE system incapable of using it.

I think the question implies something not true. Let me re-phrase:

- Q: Is the ext2 filesystem driver always available in mainstream linux kernels.

- A: No, the functionality of the ext2 driver has been incorporated into the ext4 driver, so many kernels now only include the ext4 driver. Of course it provides full backward support so there is no loss of functionality due the ext2 driver being missing.

In general only kernels that don't include the ext4 driver should include the older, less well maintained ext2 driver.

About the ext2 driver being _available_: Have a look at /proc/filesystems, or possibly at the /lib/modules for your your kernel. The fact that the later extN filesystems incorporate the functionality of the earlier ones - backward comparability - has nothing to do with the availability or not of those earlier drivers in (possibly as modules) for the kernel. In particular, although I have the ext4 driver, I *ALSO* have the ext3 and ext2 drivers *available* It looks to me as if the extN driver are compiled in to the kernels I have. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

21:33

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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On 11/17/2014 03:27 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2014-11-17 20:37, jdd wrote:

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Le 17/11/2014 19:44, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...
...
On the other hand, the solution your friend suggested, creating a /boot partition is correct. But I would create it with ext2 (two). Although no need to shrink /windows, it can be anywhere. Even a logical partition works.

Is ext2 always available? It was my first idea, but i think I have read than not every system read it :-(

Of course it is available. I do not know of any openSUSE system incapable of using it.

I think the question implies something not true. Let me re-phrase:

- Q: Is the ext2 filesystem driver always available in mainstream linux kernels.

- A: No, the functionality of the ext2 driver has been incorporated into the ext4 driver, so many kernels now only include the ext4 driver. Of course it provides full backward support so there is no loss of functionality due the ext2 driver being missing.

In general only kernels that don't include the ext4 driver should include the older, less well maintained ext2 driver.

About the ext2 driver being _available_:

Have a look at /proc/filesystems, or possibly at the /lib/modules for your your kernel.

The fact that the later extN filesystems incorporate the functionality of the earlier ones - backward comparability - has nothing to do with the availability or not of those earlier drivers in (possibly as modules) for the kernel.

In particular, although I have the ext4 driver, I *ALSO* have the ext3 and ext2 drivers *available*

It looks to me as if the extN driver are compiled in to the kernels I have.

On my 13.2 machine:

...

grep -i ext2 /boot/config-3.16.6-2-desktop # CONFIG_EXT2_FS is not set CONFIG_EXT4_USE_FOR_EXT23=y

Looks like the ext2 driver is not compiled in. What about ext3:

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grep -i ext3 /boot/config-3.16.6-2-desktop # CONFIG_EXT3_FS is not set

Not it either. If you want to have those drivers with a opensuse kernel you need to recompile the kernel as far as I know. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

21:44

On 11/17/2014 04:33 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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It looks to me as if the extN driver are compiled in to the kernels I have. On my 13.2 machine:

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grep -i ext2 /boot/config-3.16.6-2-desktop # CONFIG_EXT2_FS is not set CONFIG_EXT4_USE_FOR_EXT23=y

I went to my source tree ... But anyway, with the sdrawkcab comparability such a kernel will be able to read an ext3 ROOT partition so there isn't a problem. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer

22:27

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 4:44 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

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On 11/17/2014 04:33 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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...
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It looks to me as if the extN driver are compiled in to the kernels I have. On my 13.2 machine:

...
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grep -i ext2 /boot/config-3.16.6-2-desktop # CONFIG_EXT2_FS is not set CONFIG_EXT4_USE_FOR_EXT23=y

I went to my source tree ...

In all seriousness, why? The kernel source is huge and has lots of code that is not compiled into most kernels. I certainly never said the ext2 driver source had been removed from the source tree. There is a reason opensuse provides /boot/config*. It is the easiest way for most of us to know what was actually compiled into the kernel. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

22:45

On 11/17/2014 05:27 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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...
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I went to my source tree ... In all seriousness, why?

You mean my name isn't LUKE? Drat! -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

21:48

New subject: [opensuse] kernel support for older filesystems (was: openSUSE 13.2 and old...)

Greg Freemyer composed on 2014-11-17 16:33 (UTC-0500):

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Anton Aylward

...

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It looks to me as if the extN driver are compiled in to the kernels I have.

...

On my 13.2 machine:

...

...
grep -i ext2 /boot/config-3.16.6-2-desktop # CONFIG_EXT2_FS is not set CONFIG_EXT4_USE_FOR_EXT23=y

...

Looks like the ext2 driver is not compiled in.

...

What about ext3:

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grep -i ext3 /boot/config-3.16.6-2-desktop # CONFIG_EXT3_FS is not set

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Not it either.

...

If you want to have those drivers with a opensuse kernel you need to recompile the kernel as far as I know.

Given support for EXT2 & EXT3 in the EXT4 driver for some considerable time, what reason would there be for a mere mortal to use the older driver for whatever EXT2/3 filesystems may actually be used? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

22:01

New subject: [opensuse] kernel support for older filesystems

On 11/17/2014 04:48 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Given support for EXT2 & EXT3 in the EXT4 driver for some considerable time, what reason would there be for a mere mortal to use the older driver for whatever EXT2/3 filesystems may actually be used?

Possibly a stripped down, minimalist, very small kernel, that has a lot of other drivers removed as well. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

23:39

New subject: [opensuse] kernel support for older filesystems

Anton Aylward composed on 2014-11-17 17:01 (UTC-0500):

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Felix Miata wrote:

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Given support for EXT2 & EXT3 in the EXT4 driver for some considerable time, what reason would there be for a mere mortal to use the older driver for whatever EXT2/3 filesystems may actually be used?

...

Possibly a stripped down, minimalist, very small kernel, that has a lot of other drivers removed as well.

Someone who would do that is not someone I would categorize as "mere mortal", a software user, not a software builder. I know such kernels exist, as I use such in a STB daily. But, I did include those qualifying words on purpose because of the puzzling way the thread had been going. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

18 Nov 18 Nov

13:22

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2014-11-17 at 16:33 -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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On my 13.2 machine:

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grep -i ext2 /boot/config-3.16.6-2-desktop # CONFIG_EXT2_FS is not set CONFIG_EXT4_USE_FOR_EXT23=y

Looks like the ext2 driver is not compiled in.

I prefer: cer@Telcontar:~> zgrep -i ext2 /proc/config.gz # CONFIG_EXT2_FS is not set CONFIG_EXT4_USE_FOR_EXT23=y cer@Telcontar:~> which runs the query against the actual loaded kernel.

...

If you want to have those drivers with a opensuse kernel you need to recompile the kernel as far as I know.

But why would I want to compile the ext2 driver, when the ext4 driver includes the capabilities of of ext2 and 3? In fact, I did not say that the kernel always included the specific ext2 driver. I said that openSUSE Linux can always use ext2: cer@Telcontar:~> mount | grep ext2 /dev/sda2 on /boot type ext2 (rw,relatime) /dev/sda1 on /other/test_a1/boot type ext2 (rw,relatime) cer@Telcontar:~> which is what matters. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlRrSBoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V6WgCfciib8xbk3Bwnc3hdAdcciklx u5IAnRk6Uzha9N2v+UljXiz/YuqLIyw2 =Aw51 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

13:28

On 11/18/2014 08:22 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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In fact, I did not say that the kernel always included the specific ext2 driver. I said that openSUSE Linux can always use ext2:

cer@Telcontar:~> mount | grep ext2 /dev/sda2 on /boot type ext2 (rw,relatime) /dev/sda1 on /other/test_a1/boot type ext2 (rw,relatime) cer@Telcontar:~>

which is what matters.

Thank you for clarifying that. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

jdd

08:19

Le 17/11/2014 21:27, Greg Freemyer a écrit :

...

I think the question implies something not true. Let me re-phrase:

- Q: Is the ext2 filesystem driver always available in mainstream linux kernels.

- A: No, the functionality of the ext2 driver has been incorporated into the ext4 driver, so many kernels now only include the ext4 driver. Of course it provides full backward support so there is no loss of functionality due the ext2 driver being missing.

In general only kernels that don't include the ext4 driver should include the older, less well maintained ext2 driver.

Greg

ok, good to know. anyway I had no problem with ext4 thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

17 Nov 17 Nov

21:46

On Mon, 2014-11-17 at 20:51 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2014-11-17 20:37, jdd wrote:

...
Le 17/11/2014 19:44, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...
during install parties, I try to avoid as much as possible to change defaults, much easier to maintain afterward

It is my policy to never stick to the defaults, without checking what they are, and changing whatever I do not like. I write a paper note with what I change.

To avoid typo's, try adding autoyast, and let the system create an xml file. After optional editing for tweeking, you can feed that to yast (or pxe) during a re-installation. No human intervention required anymore, so 100% garanteed reproducable results. hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

20:03

Carlos E. R. composed on 2014-11-17 19:44 (UTC+0100):

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On the other hand, the solution your friend suggested, creating a /boot partition is correct.

...

But I would create it with ext2 (two).

...

Although no need to shrink /windows, it can be anywhere.

Yes, but ...

...

Even a logical partition works.

Keeping Grub (/boot) on a primary (not on MBR) means easiest possible restoration of linux bootability, even booted to Windows, after (re-)installing Windows. https://old-en.opensuse.org/Bugs/grub#How_does_a_PC_boot_.2F_How_can_I_set_u... http://fm.no-ip.com/PC/install-doz-after.html -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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Anton Aylward
Carlos E. R.
Felix Miata
Greg Freemyer
Hans Witvliet
jdd

[opensuse] openSUSE 13.2 and old xp computer

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