Ken, Basil, On Sunday 16 October 2005 04:43, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 17:04 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

How is it possible in this year 2005 for an installed piece of software in SuSE to be crippleware so that it is not able to play DVDs?

...

Search on the packman site (found using google) for libdvdcss and you will find instructions for installing it.

Not for the past few months. To wit (from http://packman.links2linux.org/?action=122): -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- "Description: "Now, the new copyright in germany is coming into force, it's no longer allowed to provide tools to breake technical protections. "Therefore we can no longer provide libdvdcss, sorry." -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- Don't be fooled by the RPM linked from that page. It includes only the ".spec" file. The link to the project's home page is still good: http://developers.videolan.org/libdvdcss/index.html. Now, I don't support software patents, but there's at least a little irony in this (from the libdvdcss home page): -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- "Features ... * Freedom. libdvdcss is released under the General Public License, ensuring it will stay free, and used only for free software products." -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- The authors seem to want the protection of the legal system while not wanting to abide by the laws that deem their software illegal in so many countries...

-- Ken Schneider

Randall Schulz

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 07:04 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Ken, Basil,

On Sunday 16 October 2005 04:43, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 17:04 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

How is it possible in this year 2005 for an installed piece of software in SuSE to be crippleware so that it is not able to play DVDs?

...

Search on the packman site (found using google) for libdvdcss and you will find instructions for installing it.

Not for the past few months.

To wit (from http://packman.links2linux.org/?action=122):

-==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==- "Description:

"Now, the new copyright in germany is coming into force, it's no longer allowed to provide tools to breake technical protections.

"Therefore we can no longer provide libdvdcss, sorry." -==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==-

Don't be fooled by the RPM linked from that page. It includes only the ".spec" file.

The link to the project's home page is still good: http://developers.videolan.org/libdvdcss/index.html.

And if you click on the link to the videoland site you will find the sources located here: http://download.videolan.org/pub/libdvdcss/1.2.9/ Please read the entire page on the videoland site. I think they also provide a script to download and compile libdvdcss2. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

On 10/16/05, kai wrote:

On Sunday 16 October 2005 00:04, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

How is it possible in this year 2005 for an installed piece of software in SuSE to be crippleware so that it is not able to play DVDs?

A couple of years ago (give or take 5 years) it was suggested to me to use I think XINE - and I did most successfully at the time. Now I find that xine as I knew it then does not exist (?turned into kaffeine) and the file which was needed to make it all work correctly - libdvdcss - is not where to be found, at least for me.

Can someone please give me a place where I can download a program which will play DVDs without all the crap about 'possibly breaking country's laws' and thus making some s/ware crippleware?

I agree it is totally fscked that SuSE doesn't include DVD playback out of the box. I cannot belive that their lawyers are so fscking lame they can't negotiate a contract to provide CSS on thier incuded DVD player and then simply charge a few cents more per box. I can understand if it isn' t included on the download but give me a break - I get a crippled version from the box.

It's not only a matter of money rather than licensing and restrictions on both sides. For example, for software to be GPL compliant it may not contain proprietary closed source and vice versa. Redistribution would then be either prohibited or the closed source must be opened. You see the problem? It's some kind of deadlock and it's not going to change soon; sadly, it's getting worse. \Steve

On Sunday 16 October 2005 02:07 pm, Andy Choens wrote:

But, if my Dad were to download SUSE and then get told (as happened on this thread) to stop complaining, etc. about the lack to DVD capability, win32 codecs, etc. he would throw SUSE out the window and be back on Windows before you could blink.

Oh, so Windows gave him a free DVD player? Not that I am aware of.......

On Sunday 16 October 2005 02:36 pm, Walt Frampus wrote:

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 14:26 -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:

...

On Sunday 16 October 2005 02:07 pm, Andy Choens wrote:

...

But, if my Dad were to download SUSE and then get told (as happened on this thread) to stop complaining, etc. about the lack to DVD capability, win32 codecs, etc. he would throw SUSE out the window and be back on Windows before you could blink.

Oh, so Windows gave him a free DVD player?

Not that I am aware of.......

If you will read what Andy actually said, you would know that he didn't say windows comes with a free DVD player. Most computers you buy with winows installed has the capability to play DVD's out of the box. It is time for the big linux companies to start pushing for multimedia rights under linux.

Walt

Yeh, I didn't bother to read further..... but........ His Dad paid the "Windows Tax" in order to get that DVD player.... and if you want Linux to be priced accordingly, then maybe they can provide a player too. Would be nice if there was an 'add-on' package for 10.0 that provided some of the commercial packages. And it would most likely be a money-maker for Novell.

On Sunday 16 October 2005 03:04 pm, James Knott wrote:

...

Would be nice if there was an 'add-on' package for 10.0 that provided some of the commercial packages.   And it would most likely be a money-maker for Novell.

I suppose those packages could be maintained in some country, where they're legal and made available for SUSE users.

The Windows packages didn't come free..... there's no reason to assume that Linux has to provide free packages....

On Sunday 16 October 2005 3:16 pm, James Knott wrote: [snip]

...

The Windows packages didn't come free..... there's no reason to assume that Linux has to provide free packages....

I was thinking that if someone wanted to produce them, without having to worry about stuff like the DMCA problems. Perhaps they could be stored on a server in Sealand.

http://www.sealandgov.com/

GREAT idea! Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x

On 10/18/05, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Fred,

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 08:04, Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

...

...

http://www.sealandgov.com/

GREAT idea!

Hideous idea. Humanity is far from ready for anarchy and there are far, far worse things than taxes, despite what so many so-called "conservatives" in the U.S. would have us believe.

Bad laws should be fixed or repealed, not flouted. Unless, of course, you're engaged in proper civil disobedience, and that's hardly what's happening here.

"Civil disobedience" was the first thing that came into my mind when this thread started. For the Open Source movement it is the only way to prevail over the growing influence of commercial interests that impede the spread of open standards an technologies. Peoples all over the world once fought for their freedom (some are still doing so) and nowadays we are fighting for our freedom to use the technology of our choice. Tthe latest software patents discussion has shown that there is a broad resistance against certain one-sided commercial interests and that individuals are ready to fight for their right. It's kinda a philosophical problem, but I believe there are barriers in the real world that can only be broken by civil disobedience in cyberspace. \Steve

On 10/20/05, Fred A. Miller wrote:

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 12:20 pm, Steve Graegert wrote:

...

"Civil disobedience" was the first thing that came into my mind when this thread started. For the Open Source movement it is the only way to prevail over the growing influence of commercial interests that impede the spread of open standards an technologies. Peoples all over the world once fought for their freedom (some are still doing so) and nowadays we are fighting for our freedom to use the technology of our choice. Tthe latest software patents discussion has shown that there is a broad resistance against certain one-sided commercial interests and that individuals are ready to fight for their right. It's kinda a philosophical problem, but I believe there are barriers in the real world that can only be broken by civil disobedience in cyberspace.

Correct and that's where I'm at with it!

Good to read that someone has an opinion on that and is not just complaining and blames others, which doesn't change anything. \Steve

Hello, On Thursday 20 October 2005 09:21, Kevanf1 wrote:

On 20/10/05, Steve Graegert wrote:

....

...

\Steve

...

Kevan Farmer

Civil disobedience has its place and its role in sound, stable and just societies. I'll speak only of the U.S.A., but we are in big trouble and are far out of balance. Civil disobedience (and a lot of it) is certainly called for. Matters of intellectual property rights (assuming the term is not an oxymoron) are but a small portion of our problems. The only thing I warn is that you understand Civil Disobedience properly. Do some reading first and truly understand the concepts and principles before you start simply ignoring laws because you deem them unjust. Randall Schulz

Kevanf1 wrote:

On 20/10/05, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Hello,

On Thursday 20 October 2005 09:21, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

On 20/10/05, Steve Graegert wrote:

....

...

\Steve

...

Kevan Farmer

Civil disobedience has its place and its role in sound, stable and just societies. I'll speak only of the U.S.A., but we are in big trouble and are far out of balance. Civil disobedience (and a lot of it) is certainly called for. Matters of intellectual property rights (assuming the term is not an oxymoron) are but a small portion of our problems.

The only thing I warn is that you understand Civil Disobedience properly. Do some reading first and truly understand the concepts and principles before you start simply ignoring laws because you deem them unjust.

Randall Schulz

--

Well I will admit that I'm no lawyer and at this moment in time I couldn't give a meaningful definition of civil disobedience. I can only say that when the time comes civil disobedience ahs to be tailored to whatever the cause is. Here in the UK we are heading towards massive civil unrest and probably disobedience because the proposed ID card scheme. Trouble is this is likely to flow over into violence which is not my idea of civil disobedience. A law can be unjust to one man but perfectly right and proper to another. Who deems the law unjust and who deems it wrong? This is a debate that could go on for a long time. Ultimately it will become very frustrating. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer

34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

I smell tea party ! -- Hans hanskrueger@adelphia.net

On Thu, 2005-10-20 at 09:29 -0700, Randall R Schulz wrote:

Hello,

On Thursday 20 October 2005 09:21, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

On 20/10/05, Steve Graegert wrote:

....

...

\Steve

...

Kevan Farmer

Civil disobedience has its place and its role in sound, stable and just societies. I'll speak only of the U.S.A., but we are in big trouble and are far out of balance. Civil disobedience (and a lot of it) is certainly called for. Matters of intellectual property rights (assuming the term is not an oxymoron) are but a small portion of our problems.

The only thing I warn is that you understand Civil Disobedience properly. Do some reading first and truly understand the concepts and principles before you start simply ignoring laws because you deem them unjust.

Martin Luther was cast out of the Catholic church for disobedience and challenging its sins of that age. Gandhi and Martin Luther King went to jail a lot. Here I think there might be a better issue using the law against itself. Always before copywrite allowed for personal backups since the time of cassette tapes which would be duplicated onto metal oxide for use in a car when the better sounding tapes would be ruined by the heat etc. There is also the possibility that the use of some DRM technologies may be illegal ala Poison Celon whose cdroms deliberately damaged computer equipment at some point by using a data channel outside the music channels on the cd. If these measures cause harm in other countrys then the makers of these technologies and the users of same might be legitimately sued in many countrys. In America its called a class action, many small plaintifs joining for common cause. But finding a lawyer with courage and deap pockets may be a problem. -- ___ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ | | | | [__ | | | |___ |_|_| ___] | \/

Fred, On Thursday 20 October 2005 15:51, Fred A. Miller wrote:

On Thursday 20 October 2005 11:19 am, Steve Graegert wrote:

...

...

...

choice. Tthe latest software patents discussion has shown that there is a broad resistance against certain one-sided commercial interests and that individuals are ready to fight for their right. It's kinda a philosophical problem, but I believe there are barriers in the real world that can only be broken by civil disobedience in cyberspace.

Correct and that's where I'm at with it!

Good to read that someone has an opinion on that and is not just complaining and blames others, which doesn't change anything.

This crap has simply go way too far! It's a moral issue with me now, so civil disobedience is where I'm at with DRM.

So you're willing to be prosecuted for violating whichever laws it is you're protesting? Because that is an essential aspect of civil disobedience. You have to be seen being punished for something you believe in. For it to be effective in getting the law(s) to which you object repealed, it must also spur general popular support. As I said before, simply breaking a law is not civil disobedience. You have to take your lumps as part of it. Otherwise, you're just a scofflaw.

Fred

Randall Schulz

Fred, On Friday 21 October 2005 08:07, Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Who knows if I will or not, or if any of us will or not. I encourage ALL to do the same as I am, IF they have the same commitment to freedom as I do.

It's also instructive to contemplate the distinction between freedom and liberty.

Fred

Randall Schulz

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 06:21, James Knott wrote:

Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

Fred,

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 08:04, Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

...

...

http://www.sealandgov.com/

GREAT idea!

Hideous idea. Humanity is far from ready for anarchy and there are far, far worse things than taxes, despite what so many so-called "conservatives" in the U.S. would have us believe.

The "Dubya" government, a prime example.

...

Bad laws should be fixed or repealed, not flouted. Unless, of course, you're engaged in proper civil disobedience, and that's hardly what's happening here.

A U.S. law, is not being flouted, by activity in other countries, no matter what the U.S. government pretends. If there is no equivalent to DMCA in a country, creating such DVD support is not a violation of any laws.

U.S. laws do *NOT* apply outside of the U.S..

Not according to U.S. law makers. Jerome

Jos van Kan wrote:

Susemail wrote:

...

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 06:21, James Knott wrote:

...

U.S. laws do *NOT* apply outside of the U.S..

Not according to U.S. law makers. Jerome

To quote John McEnroe: "You can't be serious!"

There have been a few examples, where the U.S. has attempted to impose it's laws outside of the U.S.

El Viernes, 21 de Octubre de 2005 19:37, Ken Schneider escribió: | Didn't you know? Our leaders here in the USA -think- they can control | the entire world and force the entire world to their way of thinking if | the other country doesn't do as they asked. | Our politicians now are nothing more than a bunch of flunkies only | supporting the lobbyist/special interest group that can bribe (I mean | contribute to) them the most. Money talks, bulls**t walks. ... Egypt ... Rome ... ... Spain ... France ... England ... U.S.A. ... next? An old story. Best regards. Ventura -- **************************************************************************** Llave GNUpg 0x75F9AACA disponible en anillo pgp http://www.rediris.es/cert/servicios/keyserver/ **************************************************************************** El correo electrónico no firmado/encriptado no es seguro y puede no ser auténtico. Si tiene alguna duda sobre el contenido, por favor, telefonee para confirmarlo. La información contenida en este mensaje es confidencial y destinada exclusivamente para la/s dirección/es arriba indicada/s. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error o ha habido algún problema, por favor, notifíquelo inmediatamente al remitente. El uso no autorizado, revelación, copia o alteración de este mensaje está estrictamente prohibido. ****************************************************************************

On 21/10/05, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 19:26 +0200, Jos van Kan wrote:

...

Susemail wrote:

...

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 06:21, James Knott wrote:

...

U.S. laws do *NOT* apply outside of the U.S..

Not according to U.S. law makers. Jerome

To quote John McEnroe: "You can't be serious!"

Didn't you know? Our leaders here in the USA -think- they can control the entire world and force the entire world to their way of thinking if the other country doesn't do as they asked. Our politicians now are nothing more than a bunch of flunkies only supporting the lobbyist/special interest group that can bribe (I mean contribute to) them the most. Money talks, bulls**t walks.

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

It makes you realise just why so many people in the world say that they hate America. But they have it wrong, of course. This hatred should not be directed at the American public but at the American government. Add to this the UK government because they are as bad. The people of these countries are not the problem of course, we are both a good friendly people. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 23:45 +0100, Kevanf1 wrote:

On 21/10/05, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 19:26 +0200, Jos van Kan wrote:

...

Susemail wrote:

...

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 06:21, James Knott wrote:

...

U.S. laws do *NOT* apply outside of the U.S..

Not according to U.S. law makers. Jerome

To quote John McEnroe: "You can't be serious!"

Didn't you know? Our leaders here in the USA -think- they can control the entire world and force the entire world to their way of thinking if the other country doesn't do as they asked. Our politicians now are nothing more than a bunch of flunkies only supporting the lobbyist/special interest group that can bribe (I mean contribute to) them the most. Money talks, bulls**t walks.

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

It makes you realise just why so many people in the world say that they hate America. But they have it wrong, of course. This hatred should not be directed at the American public but at the American government. Add to this the UK government because they are as bad. The people of these countries are not the problem of course, we are both a good friendly people.

-- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer

34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

The American people are responsible for the American government. Trying to weasel out of responsibility for your government is just an excuse one makes so they don't have to do anything to change it. -- Paul Buede

On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 09:32 -0400, suse_gasjr4wd@mac.com wrote:

On 10/24/05 9:05 AM, "Paul Buede" wrote:

...

The American people are responsible for the American government. Trying to weasel out of responsibility for your government is just an excuse one makes so they don't have to do anything to change it.

-- Paul Buede

As much as I hate fanning the flames-

Yea, we are given a choice from two...maybe three. But who picked these ding dongs? Not anyone I know...

We are slowly having our rights taken away.

-- Thanks, George

Constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil. Jerry Garcia

I agree with you, and Jerry Garcia. We must push for good candidates. I do know plenty of people that were happy with the two main candidates. There are a lot of partisans out there. I am sure you have seen people be told to "go write the program yourself" when they have complained in OSS forums about lack certain software. The same is true for politics. Go do something about it. Paul Buede

If you really think that the people in a given country have any sway where the 'elected' leaders are concerned your really do need to wake up. Here in the UK I don't know anybody who voted phony Tony and his cronies into power. I didn't but I did make use of my vote. Because there were no candidates that I could even begin to give my vote to - I take it very seriously by the way - I put a line through my ballot paper and wrote 'please give me a proper choice of candidate'. That paper has to be counted and noted. As for me doing something about it... what? It's incredibly difficult to form a new political party here in the UK. Oh, unless you have a very large pot of money to carry you along for a few years. Not many people have that which is where the bug businesses come in. The main political parties get massive cash donations all the time so that they are 'friendly' to business. So please, do not blame the people of either the US or the UK. It most certainly is not us. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Friday 21 October 2005 07:37, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Fri, 2005-10-21 at 19:26 +0200, Jos van Kan wrote:

...

Susemail wrote:

...

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 06:21, James Knott wrote:

...

U.S. laws do *NOT* apply outside of the U.S..

Not according to U.S. law makers. Jerome

To quote John McEnroe: "You can't be serious!"

Didn't you know? Our leaders here in the USA -think- they can control the entire world and force the entire world to their way of thinking if the other country doesn't do as they asked. Our politicians now are nothing more than a bunch of flunkies only supporting the lobbyist/special interest group that can bribe (I mean contribute to) them the most. Money talks, bulls**t walks.

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

How true! Jerome

On Friday 21 October 2005 07:26, Jos van Kan wrote:

Susemail wrote:

...

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 06:21, James Knott wrote:

...

U.S. laws do *NOT* apply outside of the U.S..

Not according to U.S. law makers. Jerome

To quote John McEnroe: "You can't be serious!"

-- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704

I wish I were not. Jerome

Randall R Schulz wrote:

Fred,

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 08:04, Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

...

...

http://www.sealandgov.com/ GREAT idea!

Hideous idea. Humanity is far from ready for anarchy and there are far, far worse things than taxes, despite what so many so-called "conservatives" in the U.S. would have us believe.

Bad laws should be fixed or repealed, not flouted. Unless, of course, you're engaged in proper civil disobedience, and that's hardly what's happening here.

...

Fred

Randall Schulz

Our politicians know prostitution is illegal, but they also know that no one in recent history has been prosecuted for the offence, so they are free for hire. I've also been told that not all prostitutes lie on their backs. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, licensed Private Pilot Retired IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks

Mike McMullin wrote:

...

Our politicians know prostitution is illegal, but they also know that no one in recent history has been prosecuted for the offence, so they are free for hire. I've also been told that not all prostitutes lie on their backs.

Odd here in Canada Prostitution is legal. Honest. But everything around it, like living off the avails, and solicitation for the purposes of, are illegal. Not that this stop our Pols in the least. :)

It's also legal in the U.S., but illegal in most, but not all states. It is legal in Nevada.

JB wrote:

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 14:46, Sid Boyce wrote:

<snip>

...

Our politicians know prostitution is illegal, but they also know that no one in recent history has been prosecuted for the offence

In what city is this so? What cites is this reckoned?

I know that you're just being facetious (hopefully), but this should have never been answered here...including my own post here - but i'm lit as the fourth of july so I get to have an ecsue.

How much longer are we to be subjected to these sad and irrelevant comments? They have nothing to do with Linux and IMHO reflect badly on the senders. Please, let's get back to meaningful and helpful discussion/comment Ken Hough

Thanks for the history lesson Sid. Seriously.... Nice summary, all in one spot. I hadn't heard about the making the code a song and the wearing T-shirts. Love it! Take that RIAA! hehehe and as far as the OT police are concerned, Stop reading! once you hit your Quota. Replying to police a thread is about the most OT thing I could think of. B-) On Wednesday 19 October 2005 5:27 am, Sid Boyce wrote:

Ken Hough wrote:

...

JB wrote:

...

On Tuesday 18 October 2005 14:46, Sid Boyce wrote:

<snip>

...

Our politicians know prostitution is illegal, but they also know that no one in recent history has been prosecuted for the offence

In what city is this so? What cites is this reckoned?

I know that you're just being facetious (hopefully), but this should have never been answered here...including my own post here - but i'm lit as the fourth of july so I get to have an ecsue.

How much longer are we to be subjected to these sad and irrelevant comments? They have nothing to do with Linux and IMHO reflect badly on the senders.

Please, let's get back to meaningful and helpful discussion/comment

Ken Hough

It's like this, someone was obviously and perhaps quite understandably miffed with the inability to play DVD's on his SuSE 10.0 latest greatest, so in my first response, I pointed out that the movie studios with the full backing of the DMCA law passed by their paid help and the equivalent law in Deutschland made it impossible for SuSE to offer that capability as they are answerable to both jurisdictions. If anyone has followed the history of these troubles, they would remember the arrest of Jon Johannson (DVD Jon) in Denmark for providing libdvdcss so making it possible to view DVD's under Linux, likewise, there was a court case in the USA resulting in a ruling that it was illegal to view DVD's under Linux and outlawing websites from carrying libdvdcss or linking to it. The guys Stateside went to court with the code written on their tee shirts, guys put the code on websites as a spoken voice file or as a song as they are entitled to by the First Amendment to the US Constitution, the RIAA also chased sites that had libdvdcss with cease and desist orders, but gave up after many sites carried a file with the same name, but contained nothing to do with DVD decoding. I suppose facetous just about covers my comments in my followup posting indicating that such bad and draconian laws are the result of politicians prostituting their services to deprive citizens of rights they hitherto had. Remember that if you have the ability to view encrypted DVD's under Linux, you are breaking the law the RIAA lobbied for and got enacted and all citizens wanted to do was to be able to play a DVD they bought legitimately on their PC's just the same as friends, relatives and colleagues running Windows, nothing less, nothing more - the really sad and hurting situation we face as Linux users. Here endeth the historical lesson -- MY FINAL, FINAL! as we say in hamradio. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, licensed Private Pilot Retired IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 14:59 -0400, Bruce Marshall wrote:

Yeh, I didn't bother to read further..... but........

His Dad paid the "Windows Tax" in order to get that DVD player.... and if you want Linux to be priced accordingly, then maybe they can provide a player too.

Would be nice if there was an 'add-on' package for 10.0 that provided some of the commercial packages. And it would most likely be a money-maker for Novell.

This is true. I would have no problem buying a separate legal/working DVD player for my computer Walt

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 14:07 -0400, Andy Choens wrote:

...

It's not only a matter of money rather than licensing and restrictions on both sides. For example, for software to be GPL compliant it may not contain proprietary closed source and vice versa. Redistribution would then be either prohibited or the closed source must be opened. You see the problem? It's some kind of deadlock and it's not going to change soon; sadly, it's getting worse.

\Steve

Before I begin my reply I want to apologize to Steve for emailing him directly. Wrong button on gmail. Sorry!

This is one of the most important problems facing "Desktop Linux" today. When we (the people on this list) go out and buy/download SUSE/etc. and it doesn't play DVD's, we are capable of following the directions here and installing what is needed. People on these lists know you are supposed to read the archives, and probably have the archives on their hard drive/gmail account for easy searching. But, if my Dad were to download SUSE and then get told (as happened on this thread) to stop complaining, etc. about the lack to DVD capability, win32 codecs, etc. he would throw SUSE out the window and be back on Windows before you could blink. His feelings wouldn't be hurt...since he cares less about your opinions than you suppose, but he does want to be able to FULLY use his computer.

I believe it is time for groups like OSDL, Novell, Red Hat, etc. to start really working towards a solution for multimedia on Linux. Otherwise, yes, on the modern internet you are running crippleware. It's even more frustrating on 64-bit Linux, but tha's another story. Everyone who has said that the problem is a legal one and not a technical problem are of course 100% correct. Thus, someone needs to step forward and take responsibility for fixing that legal hurdle. This is not a minor hurdle. I don't know very many non-geeks who would put up with having to jerry-rig their computers to lay a DVD. True, Windows doesn't come with this capability, but when someone buys a computer, the computer DOES come with this capability, which is interpreted as Windows coming with the capability. Truth is often less important than perception in the minds of the decision maker.

I think it is VERY important that people on lists like this NOT attack someone who asks this type of question. They should in fact be helped. If they didn't know to read the archives or already know the answer to that question, they wouldn't have asked it. If these types of questions annoy you, I have a suggestion. Don't answer them, let someone else who is in a better mood.

Sincerely, --andy

You are absolutely correct. It would be a great help if everybody who writes an answer would read what they wrote from a newbie perspective before sending it. If it is offensive then don't send it. People who can't answer from a non-technical newbie perspective may not be the right people to help out. This says nothing about one's technical abilities. Not answering every question you can is not a bad thing. Sometimes others can articulate a solution better ... THAT is a good thing. THAT is the helpful thing. There is a famous "paper" providing guidelines as to how to ask a question (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html). The fact that it is like 40+ printed pages says to me it is no longer oriented towards the non-technical people we wish to have in our community. I am collating thoughts on a counter paper on how to ANSWER questions. If you have constructive inputs, please, drop me a line off the list. I will post what I write when it is ready. Rich -- PGP/GPG Fingerprint: 8BF9 990D 8853 5CD8 AB44 8F48 7BC8 5D4B 1B25 7AEC found at pgp.mit.edu =========================================================================================== Inspite of the high cost of living, It is still very popular.

R Goodwin wrote:

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 14:07 -0400, Andy Choens wrote:

...

...

It's not only a matter of money rather than licensing and restrictions on both sides. For example, for software to be GPL compliant it may not contain proprietary closed source and vice versa. Redistribution would then be either prohibited or the closed source must be opened. You see the problem? It's some kind of deadlock and it's not going to change soon; sadly, it's getting worse.

\Steve

Before I begin my reply I want to apologize to Steve for emailing him directly. Wrong button on gmail. Sorry!

This is one of the most important problems facing "Desktop Linux" today. When we (the people on this list) go out and buy/download SUSE/etc. and it doesn't play DVD's, we are capable of following the directions here and installing what is needed. People on these lists know you are supposed to read the archives, and probably have the archives on their hard drive/gmail account for easy searching. But, if my Dad were to download SUSE and then get told (as happened on this thread) to stop complaining, etc. about the lack to DVD capability, win32 codecs, etc. he would throw SUSE out the window and be back on Windows before you could blink. His feelings wouldn't be hurt...since he cares less about your opinions than you suppose, but he does want to be able to FULLY use his computer.

I believe it is time for groups like OSDL, Novell, Red Hat, etc. to start really working towards a solution for multimedia on Linux. Otherwise, yes, on the modern internet you are running crippleware. It's even more frustrating on 64-bit Linux, but tha's another story. Everyone who has said that the problem is a legal one and not a technical problem are of course 100% correct. Thus, someone needs to step forward and take responsibility for fixing that legal hurdle. This is not a minor hurdle. I don't know very many non-geeks who would put up with having to jerry-rig their computers to lay a DVD. True, Windows doesn't come with this capability, but when someone buys a computer, the computer DOES come with this capability, which is interpreted as Windows coming with the capability. Truth is often less important than perception in the minds of the decision maker.

I think it is VERY important that people on lists like this NOT attack someone who asks this type of question. They should in fact be helped. If they didn't know to read the archives or already know the answer to that question, they wouldn't have asked it. If these types of questions annoy you, I have a suggestion. Don't answer them, let someone else who is in a better mood.

Sincerely, --andy

You are absolutely correct.

It would be a great help if everybody who writes an answer would read what they wrote from a newbie perspective before sending it. If it is offensive then don't send it. People who can't answer from a non-technical newbie perspective may not be the right people to help out. This says nothing about one's technical abilities. Not answering every question you can is not a bad thing. Sometimes others can articulate a solution better ... THAT is a good thing. THAT is the helpful thing.

There is a famous "paper" providing guidelines as to how to ask a question (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html). The fact that it is like 40+ printed pages says to me it is no longer oriented towards the non-technical people we wish to have in our community.

I am collating thoughts on a counter paper on how to ANSWER questions. If you have constructive inputs, please, drop me a line off the list. I will post what I write when it is ready.

Rich

I can only concur absolutely. At times the poster apparently doesn't know how to frame the question, at other times no thought is given to how a would-be helper would view the request and glean any useful information from it, e.g "No audio after installing SuSE, anyone knows how to fix this?" displays either a total lack of Linux knowledge or a lack of forethought in providing information that is relevant. The helpful thing to do is to request specific information that the poster can supply, commands needed to gather that information, etc., though I've come across instances where that information isn't forthcoming in the followup, just another set of useless stuff and another question, almost as though you should understand the problem if you knew anything - as it must be a commonly experienced problem with a known fixed solution. On the helper's side, I've at times been lost figuring out what I've been asked to do as there was no how-to-do-it. From my many years in Tech Support on a broad range of kit and dealing with knowledgeable people who supply the maximum amount of information, I read every request for help as one that implies "What do I type in?" or with complex hardware, specific locations, test points and all that is relevant. That way everyone stays cool and a problem gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Very occasionally you need to shout to be heard as I now indicate. At Amdahl, at one stage we hired guys straight out of college. The guy calls support reporting that he had a mainframe channel throwing up errors, so the support guy immediately responded by saying "I suppose for a start it could be a bent pin, a bad terminator or bad cable" only to be abrupty interrupted and accosted by "I don't care what you suppose, I want you to tell me what to change". When my colleague told me about this, I told him that my response would have been, "I'd like to change you for a start" and that if I got any further nonsese from this total wanker, I would have asked for his Duty Manager's phone number. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, licensed Private Pilot Retired IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks

Ken Schneider wrote:

Think of it this way, does MS include encrypted DVD playback software with their install CD, of course not but you expect SUSE or any other linux distribution to, why? Contact a company that sells DVD playback software and nag them to provide a linux version.

Actually, who actually owns the licence for such software? Is it actually the distributors of such software? Or is it the movie studios etc? If the owner is Linux hostile (perhaps encouraged by MS) they may not want to permit Linux versions, paid or otherwise.

On 10/16/05, Steve Graegert wrote:

On 10/16/05, James Knott wrote:

...

Ken Schneider wrote:

...

Think of it this way, does MS include encrypted DVD playback software with their install CD, of course not but you expect SUSE or any other linux distribution to, why? Contact a company that sells DVD playback software and nag them to provide a linux version.

Actually, who actually owns the licence for such software? Is it actually the distributors of such software? Or is it the movie studios etc? If the owner is Linux hostile (perhaps encouraged by MS) they may not want to permit Linux versions, paid or otherwise.

DVD CCA is an organization with the sole purpose of licensing CSS.

For everyone interested: read their FAQ http://www.dvdcca.org/faq.html and many questions will be answered.

Just want to add a very useful paper on the legal issues of CSS: http://userpages.umbc.edu/~awirth1/decss/csspaper.pdf. Sorry for the extra noise. \Steve

On Sunday 16 Oct 2005 21:24, kai wrote:

I don't mind paying a royalty for legal playback if the owners of the content want me to do so. I just really resent not being able to get it easily.

You mean you a willing to pay a company for their product, then pay them AGAIN for the right to use it? Do you pay a publisher for the right to open the book you bought, the producer of your food for the right to cook it? Dylan -- "The man who strikes first admits that his ideas have given out." (Chinese Proverb)

On 10/16/2005 02:56 PM, Nick Zentena wrote:

On Sunday 16 October 2005 16:49, Dylan wrote:

...

You mean you a willing to pay a company for their product, then pay them AGAIN for the right to use it? Do you pay a publisher for the right to open the book you bought, the producer of your food for the right to cook it?

Do you pay for the stove that cooks the food? Nobody ever said a DVD could be read without a DVD player. The problem is DVD drive companies selling crippled drives.

Nick

The correct analogy is, "do you pay the farmer again, when you use your stove to cook the food you already paid for?" Also appropriate would be, "is Maytag forced to pay the farmer a royalty when it sells you the stove?" If someone comes up with a way to read a DVD without the use of a DVD player, then the stove becomes irrelevant. After all, food can still be eaten raw.

On 17/10/05, Ken Schneider wrote:

Yes but you cannot view a DVD without the correct software/hardware. And the analogy does not fit because first you are paying the movie studio for the DVD (which pays the actors, film studio's cut etc.) then you are paying to be able to view the DVD (codec licence). Everybody wants their piece of the pie.

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

We can but hope that as Linux becomes more and more popular then the movie studios (presumably holding the rights to view) will see that if consumers are unable to view DVD's then they will not be selling them.... Thus, hopefully, they will ease up on the legal side of things..... perhaps..... -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Sunday 16 October 2005 04:49 pm, Dylan wrote:

You mean you a willing to pay a company for their product, then pay them AGAIN for the right to use it? Do you pay a publisher for the right to open the book you bought, the producer of your food for the right to cook it?

What are you talking about here?

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 13:24 -0700, kai wrote:

On Sunday 16 October 2005 12:27, James Knott wrote:

...

Ken Schneider wrote:

...

Think of it this way, does MS include encrypted DVD playback software with their install CD, of course not but you expect SUSE or any other linux distribution to, why? Contact a company that sells DVD playback software and nag them to provide a linux version.

Actually, who actually owns the licence for such software? Is it actually the distributors of such software? Or is it the movie studios etc? If the owner is Linux hostile (perhaps encouraged by MS) they may not want to permit Linux versions, paid or otherwise.

Actually I just did a bit of research on the mpaa site (the ones who hold the key to CSS encryption.)

From their Q&A page:

Q: Some computer users say they only want to use DeCSS to view their DVDs on computers that use the Linux operating system. Windows- and Macintosh-based computers can play DVDs, so is it fair to deprive the Linux community?

A: The Linux argument is a false issue. It has always been in the interest of the Motion Picture industry that there be as many legitimately licensed DVD players as possible, including those using non-Windows operating systems. However the argument that DeCSS was written for Linux players is simply false. The De-CSS utility was written for Windows-based software, not Linux.

Also, the development of two, separate, licensed DVD players for Linux systems - which use the CSS system - were recently announced. Sigma Designs (www.sigmadesigns.com) and InterVideo Inc. (www.intervideo.com) both announced the roll-out of LICENSED, LEGAL Linux-based DVD players.

sigmadesigns provides hardware chips and intervideo does -not- provide a linux version of their software. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

On Sunday 16 October 2005 3:27 pm, James Knott wrote:

Ken Schneider wrote:

...

Think of it this way, does MS include encrypted DVD playback software with their install CD, of course not but you expect SUSE or any other linux distribution to, why? Contact a company that sells DVD playback software and nag them to provide a linux version.

Actually, who actually owns the licence for such software? Is it actually the distributors of such software? Or is it the movie studios etc? If the owner is Linux hostile (perhaps encouraged by MS) they may not want to permit Linux versions, paid or otherwise.

M$ "hostile?" Hehehehe.......you KNOW it is!! Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 20:34 +0100, Kevanf1 wrote:

On 16/10/05, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

On Sun, 2005-10-16 at 18:38 +0200, Steve Graegert wrote:

Think of it this way, does MS include encrypted DVD playback software with their install CD, of course not but you expect SUSE or any other linux distribution to, why? Contact a company that sells DVD playback software and nag them to provide a linux version.

Guys, I'm sorry but I keep hearing this myth bandied about left, right and centre. MS Windows 'will' play DVD's out of the box with no extra software. Now it may have been true for older versions of Windows but XP will play them. Unless I have a very special version that has been magically tweaked without me knowing. Sorry, but this is an issue that we in the Linux community do need to address whether we like it or not. When a consumer is used to a certain aspect of thier PC working then surely, they ought to expect the same with whatever system they are using. Now, if a particular OS does not do this, that or the other then the general public are going to think it is rubbish. In this case the play back of DVD's. We can either get this sorted or we see Linux never climbing any higher than it is at the moment. Yes, it's unpalatable but we have to face reality.

One final question, was the DVD playback software part of the software bundle provided by the company that you bought the PC/laptop from or part of the software actually provided by MS? There is a difference. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

...

Guys, I'm sorry but I keep hearing this myth bandied about left, right and centre. MS Windows 'will' play DVD's out of the box with no extra software. Now it may have been true for older versions of Windows but XP will play them. Unless I have a very special version that has been magically tweaked without me knowing.

well my copy of xp pro will not play dvds without something other piece of software to make it work out of the box. now some video cards will come with a dvd player or you can pay for a 3rd party program like power dvd to play them but none of the installs i have ever done with xp will play dvd out of box. jack

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2005-10-16 at 09:21 -0700, kai wrote:

I agree it is totally fscked that SuSE doesn't include DVD playback out of the box. I cannot belive that their lawyers are so fscking lame they can't negotiate a contract to provide CSS on thier incuded DVD player and then simply charge a few cents more per box. I can understand if it isn' t included on the download but give me a break - I get a crippled version from the box.

It is not a question of a few cents - it would have been done long ago if it were. Look, I excerpt what a person from SuSE (Martin S.) said not long ago in the opensuse list: |> So, now my question: What exactly has to be done in order to build a |> legal DVD player for Linux? |> | |Not much: You need only: | |- convince all developers of the xine project (>30) that they change the | xine license from GPL to LGPL or BSD (use alternatively the mplayer or | the ogle project or write one from scratch)) to be able to link against | the proprietary CSS stuff |- sign a contract with the DVD CCA to get the official CSS technology |- pay 19,000 USD a year to DVD CCA |- implement the CSS technology into xine |- talk to all major graphics card vendors and convince them to support | Linux and provide interfaces for the use of macrovision in Linuxplayers |- implement it into the player |- sign a contract with Dolby for decoding dolby 2 channel and/or | 6 channel sound |- pay approx. 0.8 - 1.50 USD per sold copy of the program to Dolby | (depends on sound quality and the number of sold copies) |- sign a contract with MPEGLA for decoding mpeg2 video format |- pay 2.50 USD per sold copy to MPEGLA (independent from numbers) | | |That's all, let's begin! ;-) Before going further, I'd recomend you read the whole thread there, it is very interesting. And it would be well over 20$, by the way... - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFDUql5tTMYHG2NR9URAj4UAKCOZiYbytehgkx+u03UN2aPU4g5awCghzIJ RHnpNHseGtEWsgt8jgDiGLU= =rX1v -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

* Kai Ponte [10-16-05 17:16]:

Okay, valid point. $20 doesn't seem like that much to me. Again, it could be an alternative option. I'd just like to actually SEE that option.

Humm, and then $20 to read a m$ doc file, and then $20 more to read a powerpoint file, then, maybe charges will be made to read a new http standard........ free and open source *must* stand for something ???? -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2

On Sunday 16 October 2005 16:03, david rankin wrote:

----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Shanahan"

...

* Kai Ponte [10-16-05 17:16]:

...

Okay, valid point. $20 doesn't seem like that much to me. Again, it could be an alternative option. I'd just like to actually SEE that option.

Humm,

and then $20 to read a m$ doc file, and then $20 more to read a powerpoint file, then, maybe charges will be made to read a new http standard........

free and open source *must* stand for something ???? --

Yep,

And as long as you have the *source* and the spec file nosrc.rpm then it's simply a matter of rpmbuild --rebuild --target=i586 and rpm -Uvh.... See, free and open source *does* still stand for something ; - ) It's all about the community...

...and that makes perfect sense. If someone in whatever country develops the software using the GPL which does a specific function - in this case DeCSS - then it should be free. I would not expect any given distribution to include it if it violates the local government's laws - no matter how foolish they are. I would hope to be able to download something and compile it myself. I'll have to see what this nosrc.rpm is. Every time I see it I just figure it is an RPM without the source. -- kai www.perfectreign.com linux - genuine windows replacement part

Mikus Grinbergs wrote:

I'm a relative newbie at using Linux for entertainment. To someome starting from scratch, Linux applications are NOT "user friendly".

I __am__ able to use 'totem' to watch DVDs on SuSE 10 (both sound and video play as they should). But I *cannot* use 'xine' - it says it does not have enough (xine-specific) plugins. [Also, I have no memory of WHAT the various 'xine' buttons are used for.]

My complaint -- I don't know if I have the PATIENCE to search for xine documentation, then make sense of it.

[With age I'm starting to forget things which once were easier to remember - why now clutter up my memory with the details of infrequently-used applications? ]

To tell me I lack (unknown to me) xine plugins is UNINFORMATIVE at best. Tell me __which__ plugins I need for a particular DVD, and __where__ to get them.

It WOULD be friendlier to NOT have to search online (when *all* I'm interested in is __watching__ a DVD)!

I assume that you are using the Gnome desktop and not KDE because after reading the above I installed totem and couldn't get it to do anything (I am running under KDE). Is my assumption correct? Cheers. -- Don't argue with an idiot, people may not see the difference.

Mikus Grinbergs wrote:

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:55:56 +1000 Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

It WOULD be friendlier to NOT have to search online (when *all* I'm interested in is __watching__ a DVD)!

I assume that you are using the Gnome desktop and not KDE because after reading the above I installed totem and couldn't get it to do anything (I am running under KDE). Is my assumption correct?

Yes.

But does that make any difference? I get EXACTLY the same behavior from the 'totem' (works) and 'xine' (doesn't play) applications, whether I run them from a KDE desktop or from a Gnome desktop. (I've installed both kinds of sessions on my system, but normally use Gnome.)

And I still don't know what to get, nor where to get, whatever is is that xine is lacking.

Interesting. I only have KDE installed but also installed totem which I cannot get to work. Perhaps I need to install the complete Gnome desktop system before totwm will work under KDE. Cheers. -- Don't argue with an idiot, people may not see the difference.