* Steve Crane [12-28-03 14:06]:

On Sun, Dec 28, 2003 at 06:18:37PM +0000, Paul Cooke wrote:

...

all they've got to do is view "all headers" and click on the correct one and voila... a perfectly formated unsubscribe message is automagically created...

Do I need to re-compile mutt with some special "automagic" option? When I click on the unsubscribe header nothing happens.

Maybe you will have to learn to type. Mutt is _not_ (thank goodness) a graphical application. Pointee-clikee won't work with mutt. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org

* Theo v. Werkhoven [12-28-03 15:14]:

Sun, 28 Dec 2003, paka@wahoo.no-ip.org:

...

* Steve Crane [12-28-03 14:06]:

...

On Sun, Dec 28, 2003 at 06:18:37PM +0000, Paul Cooke wrote:

...

all they've got to do is view "all headers" and click on the correct one and voila... a perfectly formated unsubscribe message is automagically created...

Do I need to re-compile mutt with some special "automagic" option? When I click on the unsubscribe header nothing happens.

Maybe you will have to learn to type. Mutt is _not_ (thank goodness) a graphical application. Pointee-clikee won't work with mutt.

I think you missed the obvious ;-P

Nope, <grin>. -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org

On Sunday 28 December 2003 5:53 pm, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

...

Now and then some overwhelmed SuSer tries to unsubscribe from this list but instead ends up sending the unsubscribe message to the list itself. When this happens, instead of telling the person to go look at their original subscription message, it would be better to tell them exactly how to unsubscribe (as I recall, it's to send a message to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe). Being more helpful enables them to go away faster and not clutter the list.

erm... the instructions for unsubscribing are held in _every_ post that that person has ever received from the list... all they've got to do is view "all headers" and click on the correct one and voila... a perfectly formated unsubscribe message is automagically created...

The only ones who can't cope are the ones too clueless to read the hint

On Sunday 28 December 2003 13:18, Paul Cooke wrote: that's

held in the footer of every message on these lists. Personally, I believe they deserve all the flamage they receive.

Flamage creates even more list traffic. Instead of stomping on the clueless, let's just tell them to send an (arbitrary) message to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com. They'll go away quietly and never be heard from again, which is, I assume, the desired outcome. Paul

* Donald Henson [Dec 29. 2003 14:45]:

Have you, or the list maintainers, noticed that the current first line of every list signature block is:

Check the headers for your unsubscription address

This could easily be changed to:

To unsubscribe, send email to; suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com

Maybe not. That might give the clueless a clue. Can't have than, can we?

That's what I put there long ago, but it later got changed to what we have now, since it's much better. An example from a mail to me: list-unsubscribe: mailto:suse-linux-e-unsubscribe-mmj=panther.mmj.dk@suse.com This way I can send a mail to that list, and also unsubscribe even when a) I forgot what emailaddress I subscribed with b) I've no way of sending email with the address I subscribe with That's why. -- Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk "Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?" -- A. P. J.

On Monday 29 December 2003 14:47, Mads Martin Joergensen wrote:

* Donald Henson [Dec 29. 2003 14:45]:

...

Have you, or the list maintainers, noticed that the current first line of every list signature block is:

Check the headers for your unsubscription address

This could easily be changed to:

To unsubscribe, send email to; suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com

Maybe not. That might give the clueless a clue. Can't have than, can we?

That's what I put there long ago, but it later got changed to what we have now, since it's much better. An example from a mail to me:

list-unsubscribe: mailto:suse-linux-e-unsubscribe-mmj=panther.mmj.dk@suse.com

This way I can send a mail to that list, and also unsubscribe even when

a) I forgot what emailaddress I subscribed with b) I've no way of sending email with the address I subscribe with

That's why.

Well. At the risk of getting flamed myself (I wrote and discarded this earlier but since it's come up again I have re-written it) and at the risk of stating the obvious: I suspect that most people with unsubscribe problems are newer users or recent Windows emigrants who may lack the skills to use the information in the current footer to its full potential. I believe I can safely say that, from a beginner's standpoint, "better" isn't necessarily the most technically elegant but rather the best-explained and most easily understood. I think that because I have had no formal computer training and have learned what I have through trial and error and the gracious help of people like you on these lists, I can remember what it was like to first come on them. It can be terribly intimidating, and getting brusque or flame replies to questions is very offputting until you get a sense of what is what (indeed, sometimes continues to be!). Newer users or Windows emigrants may not know HOW to (or even that they *can*) check the hidden headers if they're using Kmail's (default) Fancy headers. So they see a footer which says "Check Headers for your unsubscription address", and they look in what *they* know to be the headers and they see "To," "From," "Date," and "Subject." They think, "Aw, hell. " so they post back to the list. Therefore, to change the unsubscribe message to read something like: To unsubscribe, send email to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com - or View the full headers on this message for your personal unsubscription address would in my opinion make it easier for new users to understand that they have options, see that you list maintainers have in fact considered that people might like to unsubscribe -- and gone so far as to create a facility for it, and then act on this information in the least disruptive manner possible. Some other lists even go so far as to put your subscription address right there in the footer - as opposed to in a hidden header - and say, You are subscribed to this list as . I understand that this increases the footer length, but they're pretty spare at the moment and I think the agita we all feel when yet *another* person emails 32,625 of us to ask to be removed from the list could be alleviated with a more newbie-friendly unsubscribe message. On this note I should like to thank the list for being there for me and answering my questions, and making it possible for me to learn what I have over the past year and a half. It was the welcoming attitude and willingness to answer fundamental, rudimentary questions about "how it works" which attracted me and gave me the ability to continue to use Linux. I have even answered a couple of posts myself, which I think is tremendous progress. Nick

The Monday 2003-12-29 at 15:25 +0100, Nick Selby wrote: ...

To unsubscribe, send email to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com - or View the full headers on this message for your personal unsubscription address

would in my opinion make it easier for new users to understand that they have options, see that you list maintainers have in fact considered that people might like to unsubscribe -- and gone so far as to create a facility for it, and then act on this information in the least disruptive manner possible.

Mmm... :-? I still don't understand why newcomers can't simply read the instructions. When I subscribed I got an email containing this text (and more): |> Welcome to suse-linux-e@...! | |> Please save this message so that you know the address you are |> subscribed under, in case you later want to unsubscribe or change your |> subscription address. | |> To unsubscribe, send a message to: |> |> Why is it so difficult to read and follow written instructions? I'm sure every body got a copy - and another one, previously, to which we had to reply to confirm that we wanted to subscribe, and that has short instructions as well. I can not understand it... [ Note: This message contains email list management information ] ... |> Select HERE to Subscribe. Doesn't every body sees this? kmail, mozilla, whatever? -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

On Monday 29 December 2003 8:30 am, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2003-12-29 at 15:25 +0100, Nick Selby wrote: Mmm... :-?

I still don't understand why newcomers can't simply read the instructions.

When I subscribed I got an email containing this text (and more): |> Welcome to suse-linux-e@...! |> |> Please save this message so that you know the address you are |> subscribed under, in case you later want to unsubscribe or change your |> subscription address. [...] Why is it so difficult to read and follow written instructions?

Sometimes the e-mail client gets in the way (by deleting "old" messages), sometimes it is the case they simply "never (really) read it" in the first place, but all to often it could be a case of "yeah, I saved it, but I don't remember where..." -- end result is the same: the user simply doesn't have that message "accessible" anymore.

On the other hand, if you use a decent client email program (Pine, for instance) unsusbscribing just means clicking at the end of the message: |> [ Note: This message contains email list management information ] ... |> Select HERE to Subscribe.

Doesn't every body sees this? kmail, mozilla, whatever?

I suspect you are being intentionally obtuse, but at least I can report that kmail doesn't "recognize" email list management information. OTOH, finding and reading "full" headers means either a few mouseclicks, or the easy-to-remember accellerator key "v" (for "view full message"), but in either case these are (primarilly) linux e-mail clients, not web-based or pure windows clients. But, with all the "pros" associated with "being nice to the [presumed] newbie who just wants to leave", has anyone considered the "cons"? Namely, WHO will be RESPONSIBLE for sending "the nice e-mail" -- as someone inferred, there could be thousands of regular/hard-core linux fanatics on this list, should we each respond with a "nice" message [posted to the list, naturally... ;) ] Wouldn't that have the same adverse affect as posting flames? What about the case of a true e-mail "screw up" where all the regular lines of "unsibscribing" simply don't work [it HAS happened before...] and a list admin has to do some dirty work [of course, if this is the case, the person asking to be removed SHOULD indicate that he or she has actually tried the posted methods and they failed...] -- Yet another Blog: http://osnut.homelinux.net

* Carlos E. R. [Dec 30. 2003 12:03]:

...

but at least I can report that kmail doesn't "recognize" email list management information.

Ah, that's interesting. And Kenneth reports that evolution doesn't, either.

Nonsense! You can get both email clients to show all the headers. -- Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk "Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?" -- A. P. J.

The Tuesday 2003-12-30 at 12:12 +0100, Mads Martin Joergensen wrote:

...

Ah, that's interesting. And Kenneth reports that evolution doesn't, either.

Nonsense! You can get both email clients to show all the headers.

That's not what I'm talking about. Hold on, I'll paste what I see here at the bottom of your own email when I view it with Pine: |>-- |>Mads Martin Joergensen, http://mmj.dk |>"Why make things difficult, when it is possible to make them cryptic |> and totally illogical, with just a little bit more effort?" |> -- A. P. J. |> |>-- |>Check the headers for your unsubscription address |>For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com |>Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com |>Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com |> |> |> [ Note: This message contains email list management information ] Ok, if I click with the mouse or hit enter on the last line, I see this instead:

Mail List Commands

|>Message 4,423 has information associated with it that explains how to |>participate in an email list. An email list is represented by a single |>email address that users sharing a common interest can send messages to |>(known as posting) which are then redistributed to all members of the |>list (sometimes after review by a moderator). |> |>List participation commands in this message include: |> |> * A method to get information about the list and instructions on |> how to join. |> |> Select HERE to seek help. |> |> * A method to remove yourself from the list (Unsubscribe). |> |> Select HERE to UNsubscribe. |> |> * A method to send a message to the entire list (Post). |> |> Select HERE to post a message. That is what I mean. I have tested my self mozilla, netscape7, balsa, and kmail, and _none_ shows that info at the bottom - I don't know if it might be hidden somewhere. This is click and shoot to unsusbcribe - and on a text mode client like Pine! -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

Nick Selby wrote:

On Monday 29 December 2003 14:47, Mads Martin Joergensen wrote:

...

* Donald Henson [Dec 29. 2003 14:45]:

...

Have you, or the list maintainers, noticed that the current first line of every list signature block is:

Check the headers for your unsubscription address

This could easily be changed to: <snip>

How about directing them to the "lists" page on Suse.de ? Even a completely traumatized Windows user, just dipping a toe into the linux waters,should be able to manage to unsub from there,no?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 29 December 2003 05:45 am, Donald Henson wrote: - -------snip-----------

Have you, or the list maintainers, noticed that the current first line of every list signature block is:

Check the headers for your unsubscription address

This could easily be changed to:

To unsubscribe, send email to; suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com

Especially since 3 other clickable (though probably not for those poor mutt users) mailto links are provided just below the "Check the headers for your unsubscription address" notice. I'm w/ you Don, although I've been on many lists where people couldn't even be bothered to find that link :-( - -- dh Don't shop at GoogleGear.com! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/8KHtBwgxlylUsJARAtwJAJ979cIs/+tMD8ILKMOGzot390DnvACfeKC6 dK9AVSMzPLfhro8gRGlnMZg= =k12R -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----