* don fisher [03-07-15 14:45]:

Just for info. I was able to make a swap using

dd if=/dev/zero of=/home/swapfile bs=1024 count=65536

Only 64M big, but OK for now. Now I need to find a way to get dmesg into a file, or the equivalent.

dmesg > <filename> dmesg > |tail -n 100 > <filename> ... -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag, 8. März 2015, 09:12:43 schrieb don fisher:

No, the attempt was made on the zfs file system that /home resides on. Well, https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ZFS says: ZFS does not allow to use swapfiles, but users can use a ZFS volume (ZVOL) as swap ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/08/15 09:45, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 03/08/2015 12:12 PM, don fisher wrote:

...

Why so many sub volumes.

Choice. You can choose not to have the ons you are given. You can choose to have other ones of your own making.

hey, this is Linux. Everything comes down to you choosing how to configure things.

...

Back in the old days, for single user systems, I used a single partition for the entire system. No worries about partition overflow.

Just worries about things like the inode to data block ratios, that a runaway process will fill up the WHOLE of the file system. Then there's that old but recurrent bug involving hard linking a file in /tmp to something that _should_ be secure.

...

Only downside

"Only" You're joking!

...

But now /usr/local, which was designed to hold desired user files, is on a btrfs sub volume.

Err, NOT! *I* choose it not to be.

Regular readers will recall that I am an advocate of LVM. if I need a FS I don't have to subvolume my breFS ROOT unless I *choose* to do so. On *my* system /usr/share, /usr/local and many others are *!NOT!* on the root BtrFS.

Whether it is on your system is entirely up to you. You too can *choose* for it not to be so.

...

I am still trying to understand the philosophy of this design. Documentation exists as to what is there, but not why it is there:-(

How true. This is what is wrong with most programmers, most programming schools and teachers. The WHY a decision about an implementation was made is of over-riding importance, why a particular algorithm or means of implementing the algorithm, the particular library etc, was chosen, matter more than comments about the code.

I know this first hand and learnt it the hard way when I had to return to maintain code after being away from it for over a year. Many of us have encountered the "why did the idiot choose to do *that*!???" when maintaining someone else's code. Well it applies to you as wll, your code.

I am new to openSuse, so do not know what happens with an upgrade. Fedora used to break a lot of things:-( As I understand the ZFS partition is mounted as home. That is currently where I am putting most of my codes. But I am accustomed to having home full of user directories and not other stuff. I was thinking of trying to make another entry like /usr1 at the same level as /home, both on the ZFS. But I currently do not know hoe to do this. Previously when I made a /usr1 it was on the root file system, the only partition. How do I make a /usr1 that lives on the same partition as /home? I apologize in advance if this is a dumb question. I am just used to one partition with the root mount point. For your info, I bought a new laptop which caused me to undertake this new adventure. Laptops appear to be going out of fashion, giving way to tablets, smart phones etc. But I do not know how to run gcc or emacs on a tablet:-( My laptop is an Alienware with 4 core ( => 8 thread) 4GHz intel processor, 32GB of ram, 3TB of disk and a dual CUDA graphics processor driving an 18" monitor. Original cost was over $10,000.00, but I purchased it for less that $3000.00 on ebay. My only complaints are weight and short battery life. The SSD I built openSuse on allows the system to boot in under 10 seconds (but shutdown is a different story. I don't know what it is doing there). Thanks Don -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

It would be nice if some of those whining about receiving multiple email copies would at least have answered his question rather than hijacking it to make him look bad for following established email guidelines. don fisher wrote:

I was thinking of trying to make another entry like /usr1 at the same level as /home, both on the ZFS. But I currently do not know hoe to do this. Previously when I made a /usr1 it was on the root file system, the only partition. How do I make a /usr1 that lives on the same partition as /home?

I apologize in advance if this is a dumb question. I am just used to one partition with the root mount point.

Let's suppose you have your ZFS mounted on /home. Then say you want to create another mount for the ZFS, at the top level in "/usr1". Read up on the 'mount "bind" option for all of the options, but briefly, I used to do something similar to what you want but for me it was in the '/usr' partition (which isn't on my root partition). I noticed that *lots* of stuff was getting put in /usr/share (documentation, manuals, fonts, etc...). So I created a subdirectory in my big 'home' partition that I called 'share' (mkdir /home/share) Then in my fstab, I see my /home partition mounted as /dev/Data/Home /home xfs defaults 1 2 Notice the '2' at the end of that line -- that's supposed to be the ordering for the file system to be checked and mounted at boot time. So for the 'bind', I had: /home/share /usr/share none rbind 0 3 That will mount "/home/share" @ on top of a directory at /usr/share. In your case if your fstab entry for 'home' has a '2', increment that by 1 and put it in the last field of the 'rbind': /home/usr1 /usr1 none rbind 0 2 There are various types of 'bind' (which was why I said to read the man page), that you might like better, but then the files in /home/usr1 will be available in *both* places, so both /usr1 and /home will share space on the same physical volume. ---- A better solution -- but a bit more work -- is to make your entire 'home' *disk* one large 'lvm' partition. Then you can more easily "slice" up the lvm partition and mount the space wherever you want. So I took my large volume (lets say it was "partition '1' on /dev/sda) and made it a "lvm" partition: (pv=physical volume) pvcreate [options] /dev/sda1 # (for options see 'man pvcreate') Then you need to create a volume group (you an have multiple physical volumes in 1 group) with the 'volume group' create I call one of mine "Data" which has 1 physical volume backing it (/dev/sdb1). vgcreate [options] "Data" /dev/sdb1 # (or whatever device you used) Then you create "logical volumes" out of the volume group: lvcreate --size 100G [lots of options] -name LogicalVolName /dev/Data Let's say /dev/Data is 4TB, lvcreate --size 1T --name Home /dev/Data lvcreate --size 1T --name Share /dev/Data lvcreate --size 100M -name usr1 /dev/Data and so on... Those will look like "devices" @ /dev/Data/Home, /dev/Data/Share and /dev/Data/usr1. Then you format those raw partitions with whatever file system you want (can have ZFS on all or ZFS on 1, XFS on another, and btrfs on another).. and mount it (and make sure it's entry is in /etc/fstab). Right now I have about 27 "logical volumes" in my "Data" "volume group"... In my case I have a script that runs daily to make snapshots of all the changes on my /home partition each night for "convenience" (I make it available as a windows server) -- and the snapshot show "previous versions" of files. The snapshot don't take the place of backups -- I do that separately with 'xfsdump' (for the XFS file system). But the script deletes the oldest snapshots, and make a new one each night... Basically you can easily slice up the volume group anyway you want: creating test parititions, snapshots, or user volumes. My /home partition was getting too full, so I had the option of extending the existing volume (it doesn't have to be contiguous), with lvresize or just create a new 'home2' volume and copy everything over (then delete old and rename the new one). Gives you alot more flexibility than just using 1 large file system -- even with the "remounting" of subdirectories options that are available. And note: all that creating, moving, renaming, resizing is possible without rebooting the system. But certainly, the easiest way is just using the 'mount & rbind' option, which is what I did before I learned how to do "lvm" stuff... Hope that answers your question? p.s. You don't have to put a file system on a logical volume --when you create the lv be sure to use the contiguous option, and you *should* be able to use it for swap... Yup... Just tried it (as root): # lvcreate --contiguous y --size 1G --name MoreSwap /dev/Data # mkswap -L MoreSwap /dev/Data/MoreSwap Setting up swapspace version 1, size = 1048572 KiB LABEL=MoreSwap, UUID=9b92bdc1-015b-43e3-b133-609a13ccf23b # swapon --show ## current swap... NAME TYPE SIZE USED PRIO /dev/sdc5 partition 8G 112.2M -1 # swapon /dev/Data/MoreSwap ## activate it # swapon --show NAME TYPE SIZE USED PRIO /dev/sdc5 partition 8G 112.2M -1 /dev/dm-26 partition 1024M 0B -2 /dev/dm-26 is the new swap (which you can see by looking at /dev/Data/MoreSwap: # ll /dev/Data/MoreSwap lrwxrwxrwx 1 8 Mar 9 15:47 /dev/Data/MoreSwap -> ../dm-26 (I don't really need that...), so.... I'll get rid of it: # swapoff /dev/Data/MoreSwap # lvremove -f /dev/Data/MoreSwap # swapon --show NAME TYPE SIZE USED PRIO /dev/sdc5 partition 8G 112.2M -1 all gone!.. that's how easy it is to create partitions and swap w/lvm. Linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 03/08/2015 12:12 PM, don fisher wrote:

...

Why so many sub volumes.

Choice.

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html

You can choose not to have the ons you are given. You can choose to have other ones of your own making.

Are you sure? You've tested this thoroughly and you know in advance that snapper doesn't get confused or blow up? I'm pretty sure it has certain expectations what it's snapshotting and restoring.

hey, this is Linux. Everything comes down to you choosing how to configure things.

That is not inherently a public good. It can be a significant barrier to entry and on-going maintenance. If the goal is to have a competitive desktop, it probably needs a default layout that's understandable, or who's going to maintain it? I'd be less concerned about nutty partition layouts or many Btrfs subvolumes, stateless installs were the norm. For example, my cyanogen phone has 28 partitions. This is not by my choice, this is the design of the phone, in fact I have no choice in the matter near as I can tell without likely breaking it. Does 28 GPT partitions sound nutty to me? Yes, quite. Doesn't it negatively impact me? No. If anything it probably helps separate things so they the thing is easy to reset, restore, and update. Very Soon Now, I'd like to see out of tree snapshots taken, and for that tree to be updated atomically, rather than the currently active fs tree. That way if the update blows up, just delete that whole tree. No rollback even necessary. Further, the update can happen in a chroot or container so its update environment is more stable/deterministic; and further my environment isn't the one doing the update or affected by it. So I don't have to reboot to get the offline update. It's an online update, and an optional reboot at my convenience to realize the benefit of that update.

Whether it is on your system is entirely up to you. You too can *choose* for it not to be so.

Choice without knowledge makes choice a coin toss. In order to make a meaningful choice requires knowledge. The more choices, the more knowledge. Acquiring knowledge takes time, and in that endeavor there is no short cut, no choice. So the expansion of choice over here inevitably leads to reduction of choice over there. e.g., all these knobs in Linux installers, inevitably lead to bugs. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

The fact is that what gets 'maintained' is the capability to configure. Yes a default is there in the 'template' when you create a user account. But you can alter that template. The idea of being forced to have a specific panel with specific icons & widgets and not being able to customise is abhorrent. Not even Windows users would put up with that!

Well, they actually do put up with essentially zero customization in their installer. OS X's installer is literally no customization at all. Both Windows and OS X installers are basic point and shoot installers, and as a result have no bugs or support calls.

You would not put up with the idea that all houses/home have to have the same rooms with the same furniture in the same position, would you?

Specious analogy. Rooms and furniture are discoverable things, you don't have to learn how to use them just because they're different sizes and shapes. That's not the case with Linux OS installers doing things differently. Compare the default openSUSE Btrfs install layout to Fedora's? Completely different. It's more different than mobile home vs mansion; it's more like refrigerator vs lawnmower. OK both have motors... hmm.

Away from the desktop things *have* to be confgurable. Apache, Postfix and more.

Sure fine, no complaints. I don't think anyone will argue against having good defaults.

...

I'd be less concerned about nutty partition layouts or many Btrfs subvolumes, stateless installs were the norm. For example, my cyanogen phone has 28 partitions. This is not by my choice, this is the design of the phone, in fact I have no choice in the matter near as I can tell without likely breaking it. Does 28 GPT partitions sound nutty to me? Yes, quite. Doesn't it negatively impact me? No. If anything it probably helps separate things so they the thing is easy to reset, restore, and update.

I'm not sure there is an analogy here other than the phone is running a version of Linux. Cyanogen is a option you've taken, or it is for most phones; IIR there's only the 1+1 that has it as stock.

The point is, I don't have choice in the layout, but I still had the choice to replace the bloated ATT Android that was on it with Cyanogen. The partition stuff was a non-factor, I didn't even notice that layout until months later and only because I got curious and went looking for it. Ergo, when partitioning, LVM, Btrfs, whatever, just become basic infrastructure, the user doesn't even have to be bothered with such things. But the linux desktop hasn't reached that level of standardization, either among distros, or often even different versions of the same distro, such things get changed and impact the user much more starkly than mobile devices which have done a better job of abstracting such "plumbing" concerns from the user. While there are several attempts, thus far there's no agreement. http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/BootLoaderSpec/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/MatthewGarrett/BootLoaderSpec/

...

Very Soon Now, I'd like to see out of tree snapshots taken, and for that tree to be updated atomically, rather than the currently active fs tree. That way if the update blows up, just delete that whole tree. No rollback even necessary. Further, the update can happen in a chroot or container so its update environment is more stable/deterministic; and further my environment isn't the one doing the update or affected by it. So I don't have to reboot to get the offline update. It's an online update, and an optional reboot at my convenience to realize the benefit of that update.

I'd stop and think. Part of the reason the BtrFS people seem to want the whole of the system to be the single BtrFS tree is to do what you're talking about, since there is no other FS. Having the BtrFS deal with snapshotting a mounted ReiserFS or ext4FS leads to all manner of complications.

I think this is a bad example, because why would anyone design something like this? Btrfs can't snapshot other filesystems unless those filesystems are inside a file on Btrfs. That's asking for all sorts of pathological behavior, and hence pointless. There is room for recognizing limitations of Btrfs, for example VM images: either use qcow2 on XFS and qemu-img to snapshot, or use LVM thin volumes and thin snapshots. So these could be boolean extensions on a spec that defines various standardized layouts.

...

...

Whether it is on your system is entirely up to you. You too can *choose* for it not to be so.

Choice without knowledge makes choice a coin toss. In order to make a meaningful choice requires knowledge.

I have no argument with statement. Sadly, we succumb to GUIs that try to embed such knowledge and really they are not 'expert systems' so much as the view of the programmer who put it together. Its one reason I prefer to use the command line for so many functions.

Yep, it's a trust problem. Sometimes the GUI will lie for expediency rather than creative convenience, and users end up with completely the wrong understanding of how things work.

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html

The interesting this about that thread is that it walks a fine line between FOSS and the kind of formalisms about project management, scope definition and constraints, resource management and formal testing that one might associate with the traditional software development industry such as the old IBM, the old Oracle, the late 1990s Microsoft. No-one actually comes out and says that more formalism is needed, but it's there in the subtext.

There is something of a check and balance in FOSS, compared to the (hopefully) "benevolent" dictator model e.g. Apple, Google, Microsoft, IBM, etc. (i.e. here's our offering, take it or leave it, and all of our developers toe company party line). The distribution is actually limited by resources to what degree it can deviate from myriad upstreams. So getting a cohesive, integrated "OS" rather than a collection of packages, is really hard. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

Chris:

I subscribe to the list so there is no need to cc me as well. Getting two copies of each of your emails is an annoyance. Please do not do that.

I've encountered people who are capable of filling in the "Reply-To:" field". I've seen you complain about this nearly every time someone does it, yet, you take no responsibility for causing the problem. It doesn't matter what the 'list' policy is -- as that doesn't happen "automatically". Vs. if you put the reply field in your emails then when compliant email programs respond, they will address the response to the reply-to field and not a 2nd copy to you. You've indicated sufficient knowledge of computers and email to indicate that you know how to do this -- but that you don't do it just so you can call people out as "wrong" on the list. Please stop attacking people for your own actions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 03/09/2015 05:36 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Chris:

I subscribe to the list so there is no need to cc me as well. Getting two copies of each of your emails is an annoyance. Please do not do that.

---

I've encountered people who are capable of filling in the "Reply-To:" field". I've seen you complain about this nearly every time someone does it, yet, you take no responsibility for causing the problem.

You make a personal accusation but its still with vague generalities. Despite your anger here, its unclear what point you are making.

Falsely accusing others of violating list guidelines, while simultaneously departing from those same guidelines yourself, and the responsibility for obtaining the behavior you desire lies with you, not the responder or their MUA. That's a minimum of three very clear points Linda made in unambiguous language.

Its easy enough to see that I don't make use of that field.

By not making use of reply-to pointed to the list the guidelines state you're clearly indicating you want to receive directly receive a copy. "Some people don't like it when they receive a reply to a list post direct to their email address, but they will make this clear by setting their 'Reply-To' field such that attempting to respond to them will still default to the list. To override this choice would generally be rude. Those that set their email software to direct your reply to themselves, personally, are indicating that they want a personal reply, in addition to a copy you send to the list" For all the jumping up and down you did, and pointing to guidelines (that weren't that obvious to find BTW), it seems rather more appropriate to make a mea culpa rather than dig your heels in the way you are. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

You make a personal accusation but its still with vague generalities. Despite your anger here, its unclear what point you are making.

---- Anger?... um... please don't take my direct response and using 'assertions' (which may be wrong), as "anger".. I rarely get angry about email stuff... *annoyed*, maybe, but I try not to sweat the small stuff.

However I don't see in any of my messages to this list a "Reply-to: " entry.

Not too many people choose to use it. As I just posted to John A. it's usually something that needs to be configured on a per-client basis.

I do see one in your recent mail to the list (but not, for example, in last years posts :-) ). You have made a (seemingly recent) choice about this matter.

---- Not really, it's trivial in tbird to click on the addressing field and set To:, Cc:, Reply-To:, Bcc:, Newsgroup:, or Followup-To:. I don't 'need' to make a choice. I prefer the default -- for people to hit Reply-All, or just 'Reply' if they want it to go to the default (usually the sender, but that can be changed by the sender by them setting a Reply-To field). I simply try to deal with both types of responders and not complain about it -- but I do let people know that if they want me to read it more quickly (if they are wanting a response "from me"), making sure my email addr is on the "To" or "Cc" line is a good idea. I simply don't have the time to read all of my incoming email -- but I am subscribed to many lists because I have alot of different interests.

You seem to be assuming because you did, I have done so too. My messages just use the list supplied defaults.

No, I'm just saying that you seem to be a computer software professional, and that if you really wanted to solve the problem you probably could. When I was dealing with more random housemates, I tried not to dictate or tell them to do anything... I just tried to make the desired behavior the easiest thing for them to do. Like turning off lights -- in rooms where it was a problem I installed motion sensors. The light comes on when they want it to -- hitting the switch or by noticing them, then times out after some period of no motion. Took a bit of adjusting to make it not 'aggressive', and then I just ignored the problem. I much prefer to automate minor details like where my email goes than have to write a response, if they would do me the favor of catering to my specific wants and desires about where it goes.

...

You've indicated sufficient knowledge of computers and email to indicate that you know how to do this -- but that you don't do it just so you can call people out as "wrong" on the list.

Please stop attacking people for your own actions.

No, its my inaction. I have not set a "Reply-To: "

Its easy enough to view the headers in postings to the list. Its easy enough to that you've altered yours. Its easy enough to see that I don't make use of that field.

Well, I know you are probably smart enough to do it if you want to -- I HAVE seen others do it on this list, no less. I know on the 'cygwin' list, the admins don't want the personal mail, so all of them have their reply-to field set. It basically comes down to how much you want it -- if you want it enough -- you won't rely on other people to do it -- you'll just reconfig your outgoing suse-list mail to have a Reply-To field stuffed in the headers. But constantly replying to the list that you don't want a continuously new and refreshing body of readers impinges upon the ENTIRE list. Seriously -- as bad as it may be for you to get two copies of an email, think about how many people will get a copy of your response to someone saying not to include you -- EACH time you send it. If there are 1000 people on this list, you've sent 1000 copies of your "I don't want this" email. I.e. you've created 1000 instances of someone getting an email they probably didn't want, vs. the 1 extra instance that you received. I.e. you are multiplying your 'annoyance' by 1000 and sent it to the entire list... Now all (or most of use) probably respond off topic on the list at times (*innocently whistling while I type*), but such is an email list like this. But it becomes more taxing to have some small group of people send the same OT message to everyone each time they feel 'wronged'... (just as some get tired of seeing me rise to the bait)--- *sigh*...sometimes I hate myself -- it's hard to be intolerant of intolerance! ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/08/2015 08:59 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

The fact is that what gets 'maintained' is the capability to configure. Yes a default is there in the 'template' when you create a user account. But you can alter that template. The idea of being forced to have a specific panel with specific icons & widgets and not being able to customise is abhorrent. Not even Windows users would put up with that!

Well, they actually do put up with essentially zero customization in their installer. OS X's installer is literally no customization at all. Both Windows and OS X installers are basic point and shoot installers, and as a result have no bugs or support calls.

If we are are restricting things to ONLY the installer then I'm not sure you have a meaningful point, simply because there are a class of systems & machines where they are delivered with the system already installed: Windows, phones, tablets. Apple is the ultimate lock in since they control the hardware and the software. I've not experience with W/8 or W/10 but installing Windows from the first release though to W/7 was always more complicated than any late model Linux. Many people have commented on this. The OTHER issue you're committing from all this is that many of the people installing Linux are doing so on customized hardware that they've put together. Traditionally MS-DOS and Windows dealt with just one file system and made upgrades a real bastard. It was usually get new hardware with the new OS installed. You needed a lot of technical - and Windows specific - know-how to do an in-place upgrade. And then had to manually install upgrades to all the basic office apps and so on. The decision tree to install Linux with separate file systems for /home, /tmp and so on isn't that difficult. The real point is that you CAN do it. Or, as I say, choose not to.

...

You would not put up with the idea that all houses/home have to have the same rooms with the same furniture in the same position, would you?

Specious analogy. Rooms and furniture are discoverable things, you don't have to learn how to use them just because they're different sizes and shapes.

That's a joke, right? A house, furniture, carpets, is a lot more maintenance effort than a computer! As for the decision tree with installing, the choice is amazing! Visit even the most limited of showrooms such as Sears, never mind one of the strips in some business districts where there are back-to-back-to-back furniture showrooms. Yes, if you're a geek you can outfit the house in basic Ikea or basic Furniture Crate and not worry about details. But give your mother or wife the opportunity to completely redecorate/outfit a new house and see what happens! As for the 'learn': again that depends on much. Just as there are people who format their MS-Word documents by refusing to learn about styles and do everything with tabs and spacing (and people writing html that way too!) you can do the same with furniture. Not only matters of adjustable shelves, but of levellers and in many "hidden" drawers or storage. Again, you might not find this in the Ikea-for-the-masses and only in the more upmarket. Perhaps the thing about UNIX/Linux is that it is less 'sui generis' than previous OS. This http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-many-mcses-wont-learn-linux/ is the populist front of a point that has been discussed for decades: *NIX is about learning and apply basic principles. It seems that is going out of fashion, according to what you say. Perhaps the GUI and things like GUI installers are part of that 'going away'.

That's not the case with Linux OS installers doing things differently. Compare the default openSUSE Btrfs install layout to Fedora's? Completely different. It's more different than mobile home vs mansion; it's more like refrigerator vs lawnmower. OK both have motors... hmm.

Again you miss the point. The reason the OS installers differ is because the bulk of the system, the kernel, the applications, are all Open Source. Anyone can download them and it only takes a modicum of technical knowledge to compile them. Things like the Build Service makes it even easier since you don't even have to download the sources. The installers are part of the "value add", just one part, that allows the various vendors to differentiate. Personally I think obsession about installers is a bit irrelevant. In the Days Of Old magazines like Dr Dobbs would have reviews of development tools and compilers. On the assumption that programmers did a write-compile-test-edit-compile-test-edit-compile cycle the issue was the fastest compiler got the best rating. Not what could deliver the fasted end code to the customer. Today, reviewers obsess about the installers. Unless your job is installing, in which case there are tools for automating that so you don't have to deal with the GUI, its something you do once, compared with you every day job, using mailers, browsers, word processors, spread sheets. The house/furniture analogy again: you buy a house occasionally but live in it every day. You buy the bed, sofa, chair, cooker, fridge once in a while but use them every day. You may put a lot of effort into choosing the house, etc, all the way down to your clothes (unless as I say, you are geek who don't pay attention to any of this, nor to such matters as diet or personal hygiene).

...

I'm not sure there is an analogy here other than the phone is running a version of Linux. Cyanogen is a option you've taken, or it is for most phones; IIR there's only the 1+1 that has it as stock.

The point is, I don't have choice in the layout, but I still had the choice to replace the bloated ATT Android that was on it with Cyanogen.

I think you are making my point here. The crapware is how the marketing idiots at places like ATT or Leveno(!) see as adding value. Idiots! But what can you expect from such institutional marketing? You CHOSE to replace the pre-installed system with cyanogen. You had no more involvement of the decision tree of the original installation than f you'd bought a Windows system or from Best Buy or a MacBook from the Apple Store. Further, you needed a non-trivial technical know-how and skill to do the cyanogen install. I've looked at instructions for the same and decided that its too much effort, but then my service provider only texts me an "promotional offer" once every couple of months and I bought an unlocked phone so I could deal with one of the 'independents'. You'll notice that I made choices there. Just like I could have chosen to buy/use a Windows system from Best Buy and all the crapware, bloat-ware and malware, virus susceptibility and so forth.

The partition stuff was a non-factor, I didn't even notice that layout until months later and only because I got curious and went looking for it. Ergo, when partitioning, LVM, Btrfs, whatever, just become basic infrastructure, the user doesn't even have to be bothered with such things.

The last time I installed Suse, 12.1, just after it asked me what language I wanted and what timezone I'm in, I was offered a 'automatic' install. Just for kicks I tried it. I later wiped and customized it, but that branch of the decision tree frightened me because I considered all those defaults too idiotic. What if I actually had a pile of disks instead of just the one and wanted RAID or even just mirroring? Then I thought back to when I'd sat in one the installation of a large AIX system. There was a LOT of paperwork decision making up front about the wall-to-wall RAID in the back room, the HVAC, the 3-phase that had to be installed; how the RAID was to be stacked, how backups and other provisioning was to be done. But the doing of all this was in the hands of IBM. The issue you seem unhappy with is that with Linux/suse that gets downloaded onto DVD for the end user to install himself, this decision tree is viable and on-the-fly. There are no worksheets as there was for that AIX installation. Your second point of dispute seems to be that if the company I was working at had chosen another vendor it would have been different. Yes, that's true; on another occasion I PM'd the installation of a new raised floor system around a Sequent, with the disk array, the HVAC and Three phase and terminal server and wiring. Paperwork and forms up front but different ones from IBM. I'm sure others here can tell similar stories about SUN ... Whoever. So that Linux vendors try to differentiate themselves by offering different installers and different support, I'm not surprised.

But the linux desktop hasn't reached that level of standardization, either among distros, or often even different versions of the same distro, such things get changed and impact the user much more starkly than mobile devices which have done a better job of abstracting such "plumbing" concerns from the user.

You are missing a few issues here. First, there's the issue of differentiation. Second, the difference you speak of are really of no concern. Within any one market segment of the automobile market there are a number of vendors. The cars are all about the same size, about the same size and gross characteristics such as weight, seating, MPG vary little. Still, the vendors try to differentiate. Some of these things you have to uncover and learn, but the basic principles of driving these different cars is really a non issue. The same might hold for driving in different countries. Yes there are different protocols. In New York I have to remember that there is no no right turn on red allowed as there is here in Ontario. In France I have to remember the protocols for dealing with roundabouts is different from the protocol for roundabouts in the UK. I have to remember that my father's 5-speed Citroen is different from my cousin's four speed Ford and nether have the ride or lazy cornering of my automatic Buick. But I can drive any of them. More to the point so can my father and my cousin. So too, I've sat down at other people's desks and their desktops & GUIs configured all manner of ways: E16, Gnome, LXDE with Linux; ${DEITY} knows what with SUNOS/Solaris ("Open Look"???); I got dumped on an AIX Frame and PSSP - which I'd never heard of before - and picked it up, just more 'patterns' of the same old same old built around Kerberos and Perl. PATTERNS.

I think this is a bad example, because why would anyone design something like this? Btrfs can't snapshot other filesystems unless those filesystems are inside a file on Btrfs. That's asking for all sorts of pathological behavior, and hence pointless.

Perhaps there's a terminological problem problem here. If the whole system is just one BtrFS then there are no other file systems. If you' are asking to put a XFS or ReiserFS _inside_ a BtrFS then ... HOW? It doesn't make sense? There may be a kind of analogy between BtrFS and LVM but I think that's specious. I think the spindle spanning capability of BtrFS is better compared to that of ReiserFS. That BtrFS can't snapshot other file systems, any arbitrary file system, I don't see as a problem.

...

...

...

Whether it is on your system is entirely up to you. You too can *choose* for it not to be so.

Choice without knowledge makes choice a coin toss. In order to make a meaningful choice requires knowledge.

I have no argument with statement. Sadly, we succumb to GUIs that try to embed such knowledge and really they are not 'expert systems' so much as the view of the programmer who put it together. Its one reason I prefer to use the command line for so many functions.

Yep, it's a trust problem. Sometimes the GUI will lie for expediency rather than creative convenience, and users end up with completely the wrong understanding of how things work.

Its why many of us favour command lines. or perhaps simply GUI builder tools like Tk on Perl or Tk on Python, so that we can have them do what we want. <quote src="My database of dot sig quotes"> That's what I love about GUIs: They make simple tasks easier, and complex tasks impossible. -- John William Chambless </quote> In the limiting case there is the installer. But then again, there is "autoyast". In a very real sense autoyast can make the installation as trivial and idiot system as and 'all in one' remvng 99.98% of the decision tree. I'm still of the opinion that the user needs to be asked his timezone and account name and password. Years ago the instant cake mix companies found that a slight user involvement, such as "add three eggs", promoted user acceptability because it gave the end user a feeling of involvement. There was absolutely no need for this, the package could contain everything. Just pour it into the pan and bake. But that little involvement had a huge psychological impact.

...

https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg00861.html

The interesting this about that thread is that it walks a fine line between FOSS and the kind of formalisms about project management, scope definition and constraints, resource management and formal testing that one might associate with the traditional software development industry such as the old IBM, the old Oracle, the late 1990s Microsoft. No-one actually comes out and says that more formalism is needed, but it's there in the subtext.

There is something of a check and balance in FOSS, compared to the (hopefully) "benevolent" dictator model e.g. Apple, Google, Microsoft, IBM, etc. (i.e. here's our offering, take it or leave it, and all of our developers toe company party line). The distribution is actually limited by resources to what degree it can deviate from myriad upstreams. So getting a cohesive, integrated "OS" rather than a collection of packages, is really hard.

So too is differentiation and making FOSS into a profitable business model. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 6:33 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

There are places we do need 'professionalism' of the kind he addresses. I want the flight control software of the planes I travel in, the software controls of my car, the banking and financial transaction software that runs our lives, various governmental software to be safe and secure, for various values and interpretations of those two words. Evidence is that they are not, and much of the 'not' has nothing to do with FOSS, any gap between Fedora and Suse, between Redhat and Novell kind of config options about the GUI that we are talking about in this thread.

We do get a lot of interoperability between distros as a result of agreement on the kernel though. And increasing agreement on systemd also improves this interpretability. And in user space, the DE's do a lot of heavy lifting as well on unifying UX interoperability to the degree I can fairly well use e.g. GNOME on either Linux or BSD. Certainly the gap between Honeywell flight director software, and whatever Airbus calls their flight management system or OS, is quite a big deal greater both in code and in the UX.

But contrariwise without the freedom and FOSS we wouldn't have Linux, we wouldn't have the (counter-)culture that grew up that gave us the original UNIX[1], BSD, the IMSAI and amateur computer clubs and led to the Apple ][, the PC, <strike>Patterson's</strike> Microsoft's OS for the 16-bit Intel chip, and in due course Linux, Android and OSX.

It's true. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/08/2015 12:45 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 03/08/2015 12:12 PM, don fisher wrote:

...

Why so many sub volumes.

Choice. You can choose not to have the ons you are given. You can choose to have other ones of your own making.

hey, this is Linux. Everything comes down to you choosing how to configure things.

Except when it came to (sysvinit vs. systemd) _and_ traditional (ifup vs. wicked). Well at lease with systemd there were a couple of releases where there was a choice. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/09/2015 09:29 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

On 03/08/2015 12:45 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 03/08/2015 12:12 PM, don fisher wrote:

...

Why so many sub volumes.

Choice. You can choose not to have the ons you are given. You can choose to have other ones of your own making.

hey, this is Linux. Everything comes down to you choosing how to configure things.

Except when it came to (sysvinit vs. systemd) _and_ traditional (ifup vs. wicked). Well at lease with systemd there were a couple of releases where there was a choice.

With Linux as such there is choice, with openSUSE not always.

Better to say "with a packaged system... " Hmm. I wonder of the Build Service is up to building a installation without systemd? -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

*sigh* Please stop cc'ing me when you send to the list. I read the list and it really is distracting and annoying to get two copies. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

On 03/09/2015 11:03 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

*sigh*

Please stop cc'ing me when you send to the list. I read the list and it really is distracting and annoying to get two copies.

Perhaps that didn't hear you, :-)

PLEASE STOP CC"ing PEOPLE ON THE LIST. WE ARE MEMBERS OF THE LIST AND THEREFORE ALREADY GET A COPY!

Guys, you know, it's not an uncommon courtesy to cc people, although it's usually more for really busy lists. Some peple like it, others don't, but it's hardly a big issue? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

В Mon, 09 Mar 2015 12:39:49 -0400 Anton Aylward пишет:

The protocols outlined for this list are simple: either reply to list or reply off list.

Really? --><-- To be on the safe side -- since each user is able to specify in their email, their choice of where they want you to respond, it is best to not try to second guess them and respond to 'all' --><-- I leave to it to you to find out where this quote comes from. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

The protocols outlined for this list are simple: either reply to list or reply off list. No need for both. Cc'ing is akin to mailbombing. Please don't do it.

Where is this protocol outlined? -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

В Mon, 9 Mar 2015 13:25:18 -0400 Patrick Shanahan пишет:

* Chris Murphy [03-09-15 13:16]:

...

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

The protocols outlined for this list are simple: either reply to list or reply off list. No need for both. Cc'ing is akin to mailbombing. Please don't do it.

Where is this protocol outlined?

All you need to do is read the openSUSE guidelines for the mail lists. You have a search function in opensuse.org and google and profess knowledge, use it.

Did you actually read those guidelines yourself? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Personal_and_mail_l... Some people don't like it when they receive a reply to a list post direct to their email address, but they will make this clear by setting their 'Reply-To' field such that attempting to respond to them will still default to the list. Those that don't want multiple copies are able to filter out duplicates based on the message ID, so should never be bothered When you use Reply-to-all, users that don't want to receive duplicate copies of a message have the option of configuring their software to delete extra copies of messages that have the same message-id, so they'll never see a duplicate message. They should use this Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote: Guys, you know, it's not an uncommon courtesy to cc people, although it's usually more for really busy lists. Some peple like it, others don't, but it's hardly a big issue?

It is not just a courtesy, it is what the RFC standards call for. They standards also provide for people who don't want responses sent to them by supplying a "Reply-To:" field. I find it annoying for someone to address a message to a large-volume list and expect that I read it -- usually I don't. If my name is in the 'to' or 'cc', then the email goes into a "addressed to me personally" folder. Any 2nd copy -- the filter can see that it *came* from the "email list" and automatically sorts it into the list. That's why things were done this way -- the receiver has the choice of where to receive their email -- but the sender cannot know the choices of every receiver (lists included) -- I have something like 50-70 lists that go into separate folders -- unless the email is addressed to me. I don't have the time or interest to read all of the email, all of the time. But if someone has directed a copy of the email to me, personally, it gets priority attention. Stop expecting everyone to know 'your' preferences (where 'you' = someone who is offended by people not knowing or remembering your preferences). It's offensive to see people setup deliberate traps like this for newcomers and/or casual posters. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/09/2015 06:03 PM, John Andersen wrote:

On 3/9/2015 2:47 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:

...

They standards also provide for people who don't want responses sent to them by supplying a "Reply-To:" field.

I'm confused...

Me too.

How does one do that on a Single email account that is used for a variety of things? (Not Just this list).

Perhaps by using filtering software such as procmail that recognises things like "[opensuse]" in the subject line. Or perhaps, as I do, more complex recipes that work at multiple levels, deal with "lists" first. Then again, this is the second decade of the 21st century and we have many choices. Mine is to pay $15/year for my own named domain and $10/month to Dreamhost. This isn't a plug for dreamhist, however they do give me unlimited subdomains, unlimited mail accounts and pretty much unlimited storage that I can use in place of the "cloud", all for that $10/month. I've experimented with few accounts and lots of procmail fitlering; with a single account called "list" for all the lists and lots of procmail filtering. Now I'm trying one email account per list as you can see from my posting address and comparing it with years ago in the archive. Each has its benefits and downsides. Some are suitable for some lists and the conventions there, not all of which are as Linda or Chris consider to be "The One Correct Way". There is a great deal of diversity out there. There are a few of things here. 1. There is no one right way to do things. 2. I've got lots of choices about how I can do things. I'm not stuck with just one for all time. 3. I prefer a proper keyboard and a proper MUA to the phone on-screen keyboard and thumbtyping. 4. I prefer a proper MUA to the limited options of a web based emailer. 5. I have lots and lots of email accounts, even beyond those available at my personal domain and I can choose to use them, apply filters and promail rules in a wide variety of ways. I agree with Larry Wall: there's more than one way to do things. And implicit in that is that there is no one right way. Unless you have religion, and are obsessive about it, there are no absolutes. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/09/2015 07:58 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

"As I say, the right or wrong of it has been debated here endlessly and nothing has changed as a result.

Hmm, sounds like when your way was the right way, it was the right way and mine was the wrong way. Now you've changed the goal posts and there's no one right way.

You seem confused here, Chris. A number of us, if you look to the archives, have brought this up before and it has proven futile. That's why I say "What it is, it is". I never said it was right, I said it is what it is. We've also learnt that trying to get it changed is futile. You can see that in the archives too. If you think you can do better then you take it to the list manager.

"As for now, what it is, it is."

Sounds like a very unary position.

No, as I said, its a recognition that our efforts to being about change there is futile. As the old couplet[1] says, knowing the difference between what you can and cannot change is wise. [1] http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/236614-lord-grant-me-the-strength-to-accept-... -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

How does one do that on a Single email account that is used for a variety of things? (Not Just this list).

You can't set a default "reply to header" for that account and have everything you send pointed back to the list.

Most email packages only allow one permanent reply-to-address setting. In the absence of that, replies tend to go to sender, or return-path.

What package do you use that lets you configure this reply to specifically for each list you belong to.

**and yes, I did send this to you as well as the list. (At my peril I suspect ;-)

--- No peril from me... when a mail is coming to me, it actually 'beeps at me' to let me know I got a personally addressed message. I checked my Inbox as soon as I was done writing another email. If you had sent it to the list, I might have seen it, but it wouldn't have beeped to let me know I had new personally addressed email. As for your answer (having never done it myself, I just know the feature exists!... so this took a while to compose as I had to research a bit). It would depend on what email program you use, and I would have to try to configure it to be certain. However, with mozilla Tbird there is a 'virtual-identity' extension that sets my 'from' address based on who I am sending the email to. There is a check-box in the "Message Compose Features" section to "set Virtual Identity as "Reply-To address". How it works -- when I compose an email and type in an name, virtual Identity will automatically store what to put in the 'From' (or the 'Reply-To') field based on who you are addressing it to. If you are replying to someone it is easiest, as it will use who/whatever the email was addressed to and store it with the outgoing email addr in it's database -- then anytime you compose an email to that person, it will auto-fill in the defaults you want (you can choose various things that, you, specifically, wouldn't need (like underlying accounts, base identities, smtp server used, character encoding, message format, return receipt status, 'FCC' status, encryption status, and what signature to append. Seem like that extension would work (if it is still supported -- though there is probably more than one if this exact one isn't compat w/latest Tbird). The 'sub-feature' of the extension that is applicable is called "Smart Replies" -- where it will generate info based on who you are replying to. -------------- Now there was also an extension, but I don't seem to remember it's name now (I don't have it installed anymore as the virtual identities was far more flexible), but it allowed you to associate an identity with a folder. (in this case, I'm thinking of an "identity", as being "you" with "special attributes" (like who to set reply-to: to). It was the 1st extension I used for list mail, since virtually all the lists I subscribe to go into separate folders when the messages come in. But since it only set messages based on folder, it wouldn't remember who was from a list, so if you weren't sending a list-based mail, with it's own folder, it wouldn't know who to put in the 'from field'. But in this case, if that extension is still around, it might be the best way to go if you filter your opensuse messages into a separate folder. Then anytime you start to compose a message when you are reading that folder, it would default to putting in the the info specific for that folder. (But you might be able to see, how having the extension 'virtual identities' would be more useful if you send email to people "off the list"...)... Basically -- it is something that is most easily set by your email client. Now, if that wasn't available, and it was important, to do I'd probably write a mail-relay script in perl (my incoming filter is written in perl, but there are canned solutions solutions that are easier to use (procmail) that weren't around when I first wrote my mail script (in perl4, BTW, so a while ago). But I'd have it listen on some internal port on my machine (127.0.0.1), and configure Tbird to send outgoing email to the outgoing perl-filter script. Then in it, it can scan for who you are sending it to (or what list), and add a reply field to the message and then pass it on to sendmail or whatever you use to send out email. ---- Searching a bit on the net... here's another client (http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/templates.html) that allows you to setup template of for reply-to based or at 1. At the account level where a default set of new, reply and forwarded message templates may be defined. ... 2. At the folder level where a set of new, reply and forward message templates may be assigned to a particular folder. ... 3. At the address book level where a set of new, reply and forward message templates may be assigned to a particular address book group or a single address book entry. ------ Someone else had your question (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.support.thunderbird/i7jcBvF8...) --- And one option that stood out: This would be easy with *Pine*. Just put reply-to in the list of headers to display or edit, the default being empty. I'm pretty sure pine is available for opensuse... Any answer I come up with will vary by the client and I'd have to research how to do it in a specific client -- with a fall-back position of doing it myself in a scripting language (ruby, python, perl, whatever....)... I hope that gives you an idea of what to look for. googlefu: "set Reply-To based on addressee in Thunderbird" -linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

Indeed. It's a small scale version of mailbombing.

This is an old debate. The problem is that opensuse.org doesn't set reply-to: to that of the list. Since the post author is set to From:, regardless of whether I click Reply or Reply-All, the author will be in To: And it's untenable to expect people to manually delete the post author from To: The universally accepted solution to this long standing problem is an email client that deletes duplicates automatically. Some lists do this to incentivize private conversations rather than list conversations, in such a case it's a reasonable configuration. But if the idea is to have list discussions, the list needs to use Reply-to:. Meanwhile some users assert the right to set separate From: and Reply-to: addresses, which again is simply untenable with listservers and itself becomes a misconfiguration. Pick one email address that you want to use for lists and use that as From: So as a courtesy I manually deleted Anton's email from this response. But it's not possible to selectively do this in the future, I'm not in the habit of doing so, I will not ever be in the habit of doing so, my email client discards duplicates - all the necessary information indicating it's a duplicate is in the header of both copies so the client can do this if it chooses, or not. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 11:15 AM, James Knott wrote:

Some email clients have a reply to list function, which does the job.

I'm not aware of a single mail client that offers this. You're referring to this? List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org

If I forget that and just hit reply, I then enter the list address in the "To" box. On rare occasions, I'll forget and wind up sending to the person who sent the message I'm replying to. In that case, I'll resend and that person will get 2 copies, but with a different send time.

The last time someone complained about receiving two copies was about 10 years ago. I thought this ancient, archaic debate was dead. At the time, this was the typically called upon explanation for proper handling and it actually advises against the list using reply-to, but it recommends using reply-all/group reply without any consideration for then ensuing duplicates. http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/09/2015 01:25 PM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

В Mon, 9 Mar 2015 11:23:49 -0600 Chris Murphy пишет:

...

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 11:15 AM, James Knott wrote:

...

Some email clients have a reply to list function, which does the job.

I'm not aware of a single mail client that offers this.

Claws Mail

More to the point, anyone profession the knowledge Chris does should also have the knowledge about email headers and be able to read the User-Agent: line therein. Quite apart from mine saying that I use Thunderbird, this issue is something that is easy to establish if you "go google". -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

If I forget that and just hit reply, I then enter the list address in the "To" box. On rare occasions, I'll forget and wind up sending to the person who sent the message I'm replying to. In that case, I'll resend and that person will get 2 copies, but with a different send time.

The last time someone complained about receiving two copies was about 10 years ago.

Sadly, the topic pops up here routinely. I find the current netiquette for this list a nuisance. It puts a burden on the sender that discourages broad participation. It is also the exception not the rule, meaning most lists these days encourage reply all, that is even true of many of the opensuse technical lists. It is only the user support list where I see complaints. Greg -- Greg Freemyer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 03/09/2015 01:23 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

The last time someone complained about receiving two copies was about 10 years ago.

False!

I've complained a number of times in th4e past year.

I'm new on this list in just the last week so I wouldn't know about that. I mean, in the ~50 lists I'm subscribed to, this is the first complaint about two copies I've received from any list in 10 years. And according to the netiquette list I just posted you were wrong to complain about it. The burden is on you. Not me. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 11:54 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 03/09/2015 01:45 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

And according to the netiquette list I just posted you were wrong to complain about it. The burden is on you. Not me.

According to that, about half the lists I subscribe to are wrong, somehow or other! But its irrelevant. What's relevant for this list is the protocols and guidelines FOR THIS LIST.

I posted the guidelines FOR THIS LIST. Here it is again: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Personal_and_mail_l... It doesn't say what you claim. My behavior is considered appropriate. The problem is a misconfiguration on your end. You're expected, by the guidelines, to either change the reply-to, or filter duplicate message IDs, or kindly accept neither one without complaining. Now if you want to get the rules changed to how you describe them, feel free to contact the list owner. In the meantime I will not be manually removing your email from the To: field. And I will not change mail clients. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Chris Murphy [03-09-15 13:46]:

...

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 11:42 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 03/09/2015 01:23 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

The last time someone complained about receiving two copies was about 10 years ago.

False!

I've complained a number of times in th4e past year.

I'm new on this list in just the last week so I wouldn't know about that. I mean, in the ~50 lists I'm subscribed to, this is the first complaint about two copies I've received from any list in 10 years.

And according to the netiquette list I just posted you were wrong to complain about it. The burden is on you. Not me.

Perhaps you are somewhat challenged in reading comprehension:

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Personal_and_mail_l... <quote> Personal and mail list answers

Rule of thumb: If the user has sent the reply to you and to the list, then respond to both the user and the list. If the user has only responded to the list, then respond to the list.

Replies to the posts (emails) that you receive through the mail list should go to back to the list so that others searching the archives at a later date can benefit. In case when your reply is not related to the thread use direct mail. </quote>

and it goes on to confirm/explain but further quoting is unnecessary as you can "re-read" it yourself.

I have read the entire thing, and the rule of thumb is very clearly sufficiently de-emphasized by the volume of text that follows stating *two* expected solutions to the duplicate email problem: Changing reply-to: which is what you do. Configuring the email client to remove duplicates by message ID. There is absolutely *zero* basis for insisting that this is a sender problem. Repeating it does not make it true. The guidelines are absolutely clear taken as a whole. That the rule of thumb offers slightly conflicting advise is significantly diminished by virtue of it being called a rule of thumb rather than a rule. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 1:05 PM, James Knott wrote:

On 03/09/2015 01:23 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

...

Some email clients have a reply to list function, which does the job. I'm not aware of a single mail client that offers this. You're referring to this?

Seamonkey & Thunderbird, both from Mozilla support reply to list. I also have an abbreviation "SLE" for this list, so if I forget to reply to list, I just type sle in the to box.

What exactly does "reply to list" look like in the header when used? Because the opensuse.org emails don't appear to have one. This chart: http://doc.mail-list.com/s/doc/m/985/l/20028/show_image?image_id=1946331 suggests that if opensuse.org were using "Reply-to List" that a Reply in Gmail would only reply to the list, but that's not how it's working. Reply and Reply All cause the From: email to be placed in the To: field for the response. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 2:13 PM, James Knott wrote:

On 03/09/2015 03:29 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

What exactly does "reply to list" look like in the header when used? Because the opensuse.org emails don't appear to have one.

Reply to list is something you do in your email app.

OK but that's for the either the individual who does not want dups, or the email listserver to do, not the responder.

The headers do have references to the list with lines such as: "List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org"

Right I see that but I don't think the presence of that is actionable. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 3/9/2015 1:22 PM, James Knott wrote:

On 03/09/2015 04:18 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

OK but that's for the either the individual who does not want dups, or the email listserver to do, not the responder.

...

...

The headers do have references to the list with lines such as: "List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org" Right I see that but I don't think the presence of that is actionable.

Well, whatever. If I select reply to list in my email app, as I just did for this reply, the list address appears in the "To:" box. So, that info must be coming from somewhere. I know that function exists in both Thunderbird and Seamonkey, as I have used it in both.

Its Possible Chris is using some form of webmail, which makes that sort of difficult. His mail seems to be handled by Gmail even though his email address doesn't indicate that. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 3/9/2015 2:02 PM, Harrie Baken wrote:

Hallo John, op 09-03-15 om 21:34 schreef je:

...

On 3/9/2015 1:22 PM, James Knott wrote:

...

On 03/09/2015 04:18 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

OK but that's for the either the individual who does not want dups, or the email listserver to do, not the responder.

...

...

The headers do have references to the list with lines such as: "List-Post: mailto:opensuse@opensuse.org" Right I see that but I don't think the presence of that is actionable.

Well, whatever. If I select reply to list in my email app, as I just did for this reply, the list address appears in the "To:" box. So, that info must be coming from somewhere. I know that function exists in both Thunderbird and Seamonkey, as I have used it in both.

Its Possible Chris is using some form of webmail, which makes that sort of difficult. His mail seems to be handled by Gmail even though his email address doesn't indicate that.

But the headings do.

Harrie

Well, DUH, that's exactly where I looked. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 2:34 PM, John Andersen wrote:

Its Possible Chris is using some form of webmail, which makes that sort of difficult. His mail seems to be handled by Gmail even though his email address doesn't indicate that.

It's a work account managed by Google Apps. Whether I use Reply or Reply All using Apple Mail it behaves the same as Gmail, the poster is in the To: field not the list. Back in Gmail in browser, the reply button icon is different depending on the list: the default button is a Reply for Fedora users list apparently because they set reply-to to the list address. Whereas opensuse user doesn't, and the default button I have is Reply All. And then Gmail mobile app is mostly similar but has no way of setting emails to plain text. They're always HTML, and a scant handful of lists (including the vger kernel lists) flat out reject HTML mail. None of this is really well implemented. -- Chris Murphy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 3/9/2015 2:23 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 2:34 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

Its Possible Chris is using some form of webmail, which makes that sort of difficult. His mail seems to be handled by Gmail even though his email address doesn't indicate that.

It's a work account managed by Google Apps. Whether I use Reply or Reply All using Apple Mail it behaves the same as Gmail, the poster is in the To: field not the list.

Back in Gmail in browser, the reply button icon is different depending on the list: the default button is a Reply for Fedora users list apparently because they set reply-to to the list address. Whereas opensuse user doesn't, and the default button I have is Reply All.

And then Gmail mobile app is mostly similar but has no way of setting emails to plain text. They're always HTML, and a scant handful of lists (including the vger kernel lists) flat out reject HTML mail.

None of this is really well implemented.

Yes, this is a perennial problem with the Opensuse list, which is not likely to change.** Your best bet is thunderbird, which detects that x_list headers and offers reply list button. Otherwise you have to use Reply All, and then trim the senders email address. **Historical Note Since the end of the Pleistocene, the suse list has always had the reply-to header set to the sender. Its a hold over from the days the list expected most users to be running dial-up with 1200 baud modems. Yet if you use that option, you WILL get flack from the vast majority of senders on the list. The polite ones will ignore you the first time or two. Regardless of Opensuse claiming to be a community sponsored distribution, these two rules (Reply-to-sender being simultaneously both *required* and *forbidden* ) are cast in concrete, surrounded by flack towers, and land mines, and you tread there at your peril. No amount of user complaints over the years have succeeded in getting the list manager to change the reply to header, so you just have to find a way to go-along to get-along. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 3/9/2015 2:51 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

...

Since the end of the Pleistocene, the suse list has always had the reply-to header set to the sender. But it's not set at all in the vast majority of emails. Looking at the raw original contents that field is non-existent. For those who have reply-to: set, it's set to the list.

Yes, I actually stated it wrong, the list could (as many lists do) insert a reply-to header pointing back to the list, but Opensuse does not, and has steadfastly refused to do so. Setting Reply to (to point back to the list) with most email packages only works when you have a specific email account for each list. Some email packages allow you to set multiple "Identities" but that seems obtuse and error prone. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

В Mon, 09 Mar 2015 13:15:54 -0400 James Knott пишет:

Some email clients have a reply to list function, which does the job.

If someone replies to all and you are replying to a copy sent directly to you necessary information is not present in headers, so reply to list suddenly becomes reply to sender. I have been bitten by this quite often. Reply to all works always as both addresses are still present in both copies. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Chris Murphy [03-09-15 13:13]:

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Indeed. It's a small scale version of mailbombing.

This is an old debate. The problem is that opensuse.org doesn't set reply-to: to that of the list. Since the post author is set to From:, regardless of whether I click Reply or Reply-All, the author will be in To:

And it's untenable to expect people to manually delete the post author from To: The universally accepted solution to this long standing problem is an email client that deletes duplicates automatically.

Some lists do this to incentivize private conversations rather than list conversations, in such a case it's a reasonable configuration. But if the idea is to have list discussions, the list needs to use Reply-to:. Meanwhile some users assert the right to set separate From: and Reply-to: addresses, which again is simply untenable with listservers and itself becomes a misconfiguration. Pick one email address that you want to use for lists and use that as From:

So as a courtesy I manually deleted Anton's email from this response. But it's not possible to selectively do this in the future, I'm not in the habit of doing so, I will not ever be in the habit of doing so, my email client discards duplicates - all the necessary information indicating it's a duplicate is in the header of both copies so the client can do this if it chooses, or not.

No, the "problem" is that your chosen email client is broken or doesn't provide the configuration acceptable to this forum. I do not have to "manually delete" personal replies and most other do not. But there are still to few who are unable to properly configure their email client, it is not properly configurable or they just plain choose to "do their own thing" in a manner similar to m$ who brought about *many* similar problems. Setting "Reply-To:" is improper action for for mail-list administration as it mudges headers which should be controlled by the email author. iow: You have chosen to disrespect the forum guidelines. re Paul Harvey: "And now you have the rest of the story.". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Chris Murphy wrote:

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

No, the "problem" is that your chosen email client is broken or doesn't provide the configuration acceptable to this forum.

That's absurd. Not a single web client I've looked at so far behaves the way you describe. Outlook doesn't behave this way. OS X Mail doesn't behave this way. Not Gmail. I've so far found nothing.

...

iow: You have chosen to disrespect the forum guidelines.

Where are the forum guidelines?

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.5°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Chris Murphy wrote:

"Those that set their email software to direct your reply to themselves, personally, are indicating that they want a personal reply, in addition to a copy you send to the list -- you should always send a copy to the list so that all may benefit, but those directing your response to them, personally, should have their wishes honored. This is usually handled automatically when one replies to 'All'."

I find this whole squabble absolutely hilarious and ridiculous.

I have to agree with that sentiment. I rarely practice cc'ing the poster, except on e.g. linux-kernel (which I also rarely frequent), but I really cannot get upset about others cc'ing me. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.5°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 09, 2015 at 01:33:06PM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 03/09/2015 01:11 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

I just looked: iconic mutt has a list-reply mapping (on L) and it appears to work -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Patrick Shanahan [03-09-15 19:03]:

* toothpik [03-09-15 18:58]:

...

On Mon, Mar 09, 2015 at 01:33:06PM -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 03/09/2015 01:11 PM, Chris Murphy wrote:

...

On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

I just looked: iconic mutt has a list-reply mapping (on L) and it appears to work

And has for years. I severly sucks making decent coffee, thou

s/I/It -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/09/2015 08:41 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

On 03/08/2015 12:45 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 03/08/2015 12:12 PM, don fisher wrote:

...

Why so many sub volumes.

Choice. You can choose not to have the ons you are given. You can choose to have other ones of your own making.

hey, this is Linux. Everything comes down to you choosing how to configure things.

Except when it came to (sysvinit vs. systemd) _and_ traditional (ifup vs. wicked). Well at lease with systemd there were a couple of releases where there was a choice.

Ah. If you are saying "a pre-packaged distribution" then yes, there is a diminishing option there. But you still have the choice of putting together a system of your own specific requirement should you so choose. if you give up the decision and accept someone else;s choice of what goes in the 'package' then that too is a choice. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org