On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 01:49:42PM +0100, houghi wrote:

On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 01:41:41PM +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

I hope this will be only in SLES10 and won't be default for SUSE Linux 10.1. It would be annoying and pointless for a home use desktop product.

SUSE is not a home use desktop product. I agree that it can be used like that as well and it would be nice if this good feature could be turned off easily.

I do think it is good to have by default.

It is meant for SLES 10 and perhaps the enterprise desktop, but not for the SUSE Linux box. Likely caused by the current packagemanager changes. Ciao, Marcus

On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 11:00:34AM -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

You mean, SLES is not a home use desktop product - SUSE Linux *is* a home use desktop product.

I thought it was already stated here that there are businesses that use SUSE and very happily. I agree that it is MAINLY a home use product, but definatly not solely. And even in home use, I can imagine it to be a multi-user enviroment. Anyway, I liked it that it asked my root password and I am a single home user. :-) houghi -- Nutze die zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Wert und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das tun. Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 01:20:19PM -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

So I'd say that option should be easy to turn on, since the environment its intended for would have a few users at most, and typically, all would be able to turn it on and off - they shouldn't all have root access just for that. I consider that more of security risk.

Well, I have a different opinon. I like it to be able to turn off eaily. :-) I also understand that it is not an issue. It will be off by default. Concerning this is not a demand, it is a preference. There are some things I DO expect. They are being discussed and worked on in opensuse-factory. houghi -- Nutze die zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Wert und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das tun. Johannes Müller-Elmau

On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 07:45:48PM +0100, jdd wrote:

houghi wrote:

...

Well, I have a different opinon. I like it to be able to turn off eaily.

making users unable to reboot is only advisable is the central unit is protected physically. If not the user will simply switch of the Unit or unplug it...

I understand that. I still like it more. Oh well. On to importand things. houghi -- Nutze die zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Wert und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das tun. Johannes Müller-Elmau

Am Montag, 20. Februar 2006 08:07 schrieb Silviu Marin-Caea:

On Sunday 19 February 2006 19:50, houghi wrote:

...

On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 11:00:34AM -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote:

...

You mean, SLES is not a home use desktop product - SUSE Linux *is* a home use desktop product.

I thought it was already stated here that there are businesses that use SUSE and very happily.

To each his own. Those businesses do it on their own responsibility.

The categories are clear:

1. The consumer product: SUSE Linux - home user, "tech enthusiast"

2. The business products: SUSE Linux Enterprise Server Novell Open Enterprise Server Novell Linux Desktop

You can build your own plane with a car engine, and it can fly. Maybe you can fly it alone on your own risk, but I doubt it would be wise to start selling flight tickets to the public.

:-)

Considering they all use a common code base, the analogy doesn't work very well... I would compare it more to flying with a budget airline or flying with a "real" airline, you get the service and extras you pay for. SUSE Linux will work fine for smaller businesses, and the reduced costs can be the determining factor if the budget is tight (a couple of hundred € or less (or even free) for SL, a couple of grand for SLES and NLD rollout and several grand for Windows Server and XP rollout). But, if they have problems, they are on their own, unless they buy additional support. SLES and NLD have better business support options, are more controlled and easier to configure and rollout large installations. A company with half a dozen workstations and a print/file server just don't need all the extras that SLES brings, the samba server is a doddle to install and just sits in the corner for months on end without anyone touching it, apart from backups. If they have hundreds of users and dozens of servers, then yes, SLES isn't going to be the answer. But if the company started small with SL, they might very well switch to SLES and NLD as their userbase grows... And they'll probably need more help managing and configuring such a large userbase, which is when they will really need that additional support. Dave -- "I got to go figure," the tenant said. "We all got to figure. There's some way to stop this. It's not like lightning or earthquakes. We've got a bad thing made by men, and by God that's something we can change." - The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck

Am Sonntag, 19. Februar 2006 13:49 schrieb houghi:

On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 01:41:41PM +0200, Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

...

I hope this will be only in SLES10 and won't be default for SUSE Linux 10.1. It would be annoying and pointless for a home use desktop product.

SUSE is not a home use desktop product. I agree that it can be used like that as well and it would be nice if this good feature could be turned off easily.

I do think it is good to have by default.

houghi

I thought SUSE Linux was aimed at the Enthusiast and SOHO market? I use it in my office for my server and my desktop and laptop. On the server it is a nice option, but on the desktop I like the fact I can just hit the power button when I leave the office and it shuts down. As you say, it needs to be easy to turn off. -- "I got to go figure," the tenant said. "We all got to figure. There's some way to stop this. It's not like lightning or earthquakes. We've got a bad thing made by men, and by God that's something we can change." - The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck

On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 10:26:07AM -0800, Eric Burke wrote:

Actually according to Novell, SUSE Linux is for Power users and Home use, Novell Linux Desktop is for business use. Novell Linux Desktop is based on SUSE Linux. So where is this coming from?

Both come from the same common code base (as does SLES).

Has the tune by Novell changed?

No.

They are no longer going to support the home and power user desktop?

What gave you that idea? SUSE Linux is supported. Rasmus

Rasmus Plewe wrote:

What gave you that idea? SUSE Linux is supported.

That depends on what you mean by support. It has basic installation support, and you get patches for security problems and serious bugs for around two years (the business products is 5/7 years), but you can't get "real" support contracts for it. For serious business use, I think that's a requirement.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2006 at 08:01:16PM +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

You are replying to a non Novell employee who is making assumptions out of a trivial bug.

A bug? I call it a feature. <Ducks and runs> houghi -- Nutze die zeit. Sie ist das Kostbarste was wir haben, denn es ist unwiederbringliche Lebenszeit. Leben ist aber mehr als Wert und Arbeit, und das Sein wichtiger als das tun. Johannes Müller-Elmau

Hi, On Sun, 19 Feb 2006, Mauricio Teixeira (netmask) wrote:

BTW, why there are still non-public tickets? :)

I guess simply because each and every idiot can click it "on". I don't think they are part of "ClosedSUSE", I hope they are only entered by individual idiots (there is a slight difference between "individual" and "idiot", but only in newer ages)... Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hello, Am Montag, 20. Februar 2006 14:07 schrieb Karl Eichwalder:

Eberhard Moenkeberg writes:

...

I don't think they are part of "ClosedSUSE", I hope they are only entered by individual idiots (there is a slight difference between "individual" and "idiot", but only in newer ages)...

Let's blame the system. You start testing SLES and classify defects as SLES issues. That's probably a fair assumption. Now the assignee (or someone with sufficient rights) must check whether the issue also affects SL and change the product accordingly.

If I got it right, SLES and SL currently use the same codebase. So you can assume that nearly _every_ SLES bug is also a SL bug. (At least as long as it doesn't concern SLES-exclusive features...)

If no one bothers, the report stays closed.

How can one bother if he can't access the bugreport? That's a chicken-egg-problem ;-) I'd like to make the following proposal: - as soon as a report for SLES gets a duplication message from another bugreport for SL, move it to SL - it is REALLY annoying if people see "this bug is a duplicate of #xxxxx", but can't access #xxxxx and therefore can't watch the bug. - if a bug is listed at the "Most Annoying Bugs" page, open it - listing it on opensuse.org qualifies it as SL bug also ;-) Or simply: - open all SLES 10 bugs :-) Maybe this should be discussed on the overnext status meeting (in 2 weeks) to give you a chance for finding a reasonable solution. Or already tomorrow [1] - just ask the participants what they would like to have. Regards, Christian Boltz [1] unfortunately, I won't be able to take part at the IRC meeting tomorrow :-( but I will check the transcript. --

:digraphs und :h digraphs *ŠÇÑ®* Wenn man dann nur noch so unleserlich schreiben kann, bleibe ich lieber bei KMail ;) [> Maik Holtkamp und Manfred Misch in suse-linux]