On Thursday 12 Feb 2015 11:52:49 Joe Zappa wrote:

ianseeks wrote:

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On Wednesday 11 Feb 2015 10:43:32 Joe Zappa wrote:

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ianseeks wrote:

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On Tuesday 03 Jun 2014 03:08:45 Dirk Gently wrote:

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Damian Ivanov wrote:

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You have no idea. Not the slightest clue. You can't keep it technical. Fuck you Dirk Gently.

1. systemd doesn't produce ASCII (or for that matter, UTF) log files, it produces binary blob log files.

Which means you can't just browse through a log file using grep, awk, and/or more (or less).

journalctl | grep xxx

And why do you need to run journalctl instead of just grepping the file directly???

how many files do you have to grep to trace the issue you are looking for?

Hey, Ian,

When you look at

grep pattern /var/log/somelogfile

and

journalctl | grep pattern

What is the HUGE difference between those two command lines?

For a single line there is no real difference. If you read the question i asked, i said "files", not a "file".

Are you clever enough to spot it?

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just configure it to use rsyslog if you want to increase your workload and

Yes, increase your system workload because SYSTEMD DOES LOGGING COMPLETELY WRONG!

that's your personal opinion not a valid reason

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grep multiple files. using journalctl will make your life easier and reduce the repetitive creating of using scripts to do your job

No, JOURNALCTRL adds additional overhead

i see you avoided answering that question.

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Because the log file is a binary blob which MUST BE INTERPRETED BY JOURNALCTL.

why do you use "grep" instead of editing the files manually?

What kind of idiotic question is this?

i was saying you'll use tools that make viewing files (and other tasks) easier (journalctl is a tool)

Note that I'm not asking IF it is an idiotic question, I'm asking you to tell me which particular type of idiotic question you intend for it to be.

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It makes life

easier which is one of the uses of computers. How do you interpret MariaDB database files, do you grep them?

You have left the sphere of rational discourse, just like every other proponent of systemd, now that the discussion gets down to specifics.

no, just pointing out the obvious that you'd be happy with files being in a binary format elsewhere on the system

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or

journalctl > /tmp/xxxx then do your stuff

That doesn't change the fact that systemd violates on the major principles of what has made Unix and now Linux so successful -- NO BINARY BLOBS FOR HUMAN READABLE INFORMATION.

if you go back in time far enough i'd expect you'll find using a GUI was violating the Unix principle of only using a cli. I heard many an argument about the GUI/cli offerings. Compromises are made all the time, have a read of this as an example http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2012/05/25/unix-doesnt-follow-the-unix-philo sophy/

an example of the benefit of journalctl. whats easier? create a script(s) that produces a single sorted output from all the log files for a specified date/time range of 07:37 to 08:29 and note the time it took to write it and debug it. or a single line journalctl --since 07:37 --until 08:29

You might think that's simpler.

it is far simpler and quicker, show me the way you'd do it that is simpler and quicker and can be done on one line

Most of us don't. I have over 20 years administrating Unix and Linux systems.

If journalctl was a win, I would jump right on it, but like nearly everything associated with systemd, minor wins are accompanied by HUGE losses.

perhaps you need to watch this, its called " The Six Stages of systemd " https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-97qqUHwzGM I think you might be in the "denial" stage

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2. systemd eliminates separate log files... so if you're looking for ntp messages, we no longer have ntp log files... now we have to wade through the whole combined (binary only) logfile

journalctl | grep ntp

Once again, show us how to do it WITHOUTH journalctl.

configure systemd to use rsyslog.

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1. What if your journalctl executable gets compromised?

what if any executable on your system gets compromised?

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2. Why do we need this extra overhead every time we want to look at a journal?

What overhead? it'll save you loads of time if you have to a lot of searching of log files, its only 10 letters to type and no changing of directories. If 10 letters are too much to type, create an alias.

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The ntp log files exist on my opensuse 13.2

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3. The old time tested method of keeping log files small and maneagble (daily rotation) is now also broken, YATFUBSD (Yet Another Thing Fucked Up By SystemD)

http://www.h-online.com/news/item/Latest-release-of-systemd-includes-tim e-> > based-log-rotation-1735258.html>> So, in other words, after much harping by the community, Poettering, et al have finally pulled their heads out of their asses on this ONE point....

that was a news article from 2012 which is quite early in systemd's development life cycle. Maybe you don't know but when developing software, it takes time and not all functions are ready on day one.

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Obviously, you're either ignorant or making up more lies. Which is it?

you are obviously out of date on info about systemd

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Do you want to keep on playing this idiotic game where you make false assertions, and I point out how the truth differs from what you say it is?

you wouldn't know the truth if it smacked you in the mouth

Now go away and do some reading about systemd and find out what it really does

I've read a lot about it.

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2014-06-03 2:26 GMT+02:00 Dirk Gently : > Damian Ivanov wrote: >> You can run a different logging daemon like syslog-ng no problem. >> Also >> journalctl which seems to be your problem can filer per application, >> time etc. everything and write to file. no problem. > > So, we're supposed to run TO loggin deamons now.... > > And this is an improvement how, exactly, Damian? > > Do you understand how absolutely idiotic that "solution" is? > > It's not a solution, it's a pollution. > >> 2014-06-02 9:19 GMT+02:00 Dirk Gently : >>> Damian Ivanov wrote: >>>> Maybe on Kay Sievert, yes he is problematic (as personality in >>>> open >>>> source). systemd doesn't not do everything. Under the systemd >>>> umbrella >>>> are few additional daemons reimplenting a lot of services. If you >>>> build systemd with all configuration options enabled you will >>>> build >>>> 69 >>>> individual binaries. These binaries all serve different tasks, and >>>> are >>>> neatly separated for a number of reasons. At compile time you have >>>> a >>>> number of configure switches to select what you want to build, and >>>> what not. >>>> >>>> That developers code stuff that requires systemd is not systemd's >>>> fault. >>> >>> You don't konw that the fuck you're talking about. >>> >>> If the syslog deamon has been removed, then I can't sent logging >>> messages >>> to >>> a standard file handle which can (in the startup script) be sent to >>> the >>> syslog process. >>> >>> Instead, deamons NOW have to call a special logging function in >>> systemd >>> to >>> have anything logged. >>> >>> Thus, now the applications have to be aware of systemd... which >>> then >>> makes >>> systemd NON-REPLACEABLE. >>> >>> >>> haven't the past 30 years of Microsoft's machinations taught you >>> anything >>> about the inherent evilness of "embrace and extend" programming. >>> >>> Systemd is being designed to be a one-way trapdoor, so that, >>> if/when >>> people >>> realize that it's not all it's been sold as being (in fact, not >>> even >>> close) >>> then it will be impossible to replace it without ALSO rewriting >>> tons >>> of >>> other code in other projects. >>> >>> That reason alone makes it stupid for any distribution to adopt it. >>> >>>> You don't like GNOME? Use something else. You have a problem >>>> >>>> with systemd as init or with some of all the services under >>>> systemd's >>>> umbrella (logind etc.)? You could develop alternatives for these. >>>> You >>>> don't want to? You want other people to develop for YOUR personal >>>> preferences? This ain't gonna happen. And as upstart is dead from >>>> now >>>> on and openrc doesn't do the job, let's embrace systemd with all >>>> of >>>> our heart. >>> >>> -- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org >>> To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org > To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

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