I am a little confused with one regard of the openSUSE project and the goal of making SUSE Linux the most widely used Linux. And something that I believe will need to be changed in the near future to achieve that goal. It has become quite clear that the openSUSE project is not really a user project, and in its current form is a developer only project. Just look at the example of normal users asking for help on this supposedly general openSUSE mailing list and told to go to a non-opensuse place because this is a development list. This now also confuses the aim of the openSUSE wiki (my main contributional input to this project so far), who is it aimed at? The end-user or the openSUSE developer/contributor? If I want to write SUSE end-user wiki should I go to: http://wiki.novell.com/index.php/Cool_Solutions_Wiki_Main_Page ? or perhaps submit articles to http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/ (and even earn points). I would like openSUSE be a distro with a user community to rival anybody and here is what I believe openSUSE should do: 1. Rename SUSE Linux OSS to openSUSE Linux - you can't build a user community if you have nothing to build it around. 2. OpenSUSE.org has to be a full self contained entity with a "everyone is Welcome here" attitutude. This therefore requires web forums for support. Mailing lists and news readers are not good enough for newbies. There is no choice. If you don't like web forums, get over it or don't go there, the mailing lists should be untouched. Otherwise can someone explain how the openSUSE project actually intends to reach one of its stated goals, it just won't happen by accident... Peter 'Pflodo' Flodin.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Peter Flodin wrote:
I am a little confused with one regard of the openSUSE project and the goal of making SUSE Linux the most widely used Linux. And something that I believe will need to be changed in the near future to achieve that goal. It has become quite clear that the openSUSE project is not really a user project, and in its current form is a developer only project.
Err... define "user project" and "developer only project". Keep in mind what the current state of the openSUSE project is: it has just begun, and there's still a lot to do, both on the SUSE/Novell side as on ours (the community).
Just look at the example of normal users asking for help on this supposedly general openSUSE mailing list and told to go to a non-opensuse place because this is a development list.
This hasn't been properly communicated. AFAICT, this is *not* supposed to be yet another user help mailing-list. There's already suse-linux-e. Making this a "user" mailing-list would kill openSUSE, it's already drowned with such e-mails as of now. "Developers" (i.e. packagers, committers, active community members, ...) also need a mailing-list to communicate their ideas, what they've always been missing, etc... with people from SUSE/Novell. Believe me, we packagers know that distribution since quite some time, and we're the ones working hard in our free time to provide end-users with tons of packages to make their life easier. We do have a lot to say, propose and discuss with the people working on SUSE Linux. So please, bare us some space to do that. Of course, anyone can join in, this is a community initiative after all ;P We should probably move to a dedicated mailing-list. But I really don't see the point of making yet another mailing list for helping end-users with their installation or hardware issues on SUSE Linux.
This now also confuses the aim of the openSUSE wiki (my main contributional input to this project so far), who is it aimed at? The end-user or the openSUSE developer/contributor?
Everyone.
If I want to write SUSE end-user wiki should I go to: http://wiki.novell.com/index.php/Cool_Solutions_Wiki_Main_Page ? or perhaps submit articles to http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/ (and even earn points).
I would like openSUSE be a distro with a user community to rival anybody and here is what I believe openSUSE should do: 1. Rename SUSE Linux OSS to openSUSE Linux - you can't build a user community if you have nothing to build it around.
It's exactly the same thing, just a different name.
2. OpenSUSE.org has to be a full self contained entity with a "everyone is Welcome here" attitutude. This therefore requires web forums for support. Mailing lists and news readers are not good enough
IMHO web forums suck really, really bad. And there are already some SUSE web forums. I think it's much better to embrace and extend what already exists in the community instead of starting everything from scratch.
for newbies. There is no choice. If you don't like web forums, get over it or don't go there, the mailing lists should be untouched. Otherwise can someone explain how the openSUSE project actually intends to reach one of its stated goals, it just won't happen by accident...
Yes, the answer is pretty simple: TIME.
The project has just been started, everyone at SUSE/Novell is working hard to fix the bugs we've
submitted and to finish the 10.0 release.
- - the bugzilla is there and works great
- - the betas and RCs are there
- - the wiki is there, anyone can contribute
- - some spin-off distribution(s) have started already (SUPER)
- - SUSE Linux (OSS) is available for download from day 1 of its release (actually from day -30 ;)),
unlike what SUSE previously did (1 month after releasing the boxed set)
- - anyone on this mailing-list can make propositions, state her ideas, discuss with other members of
the SUSE community and with people from Novell working on the distribution and the openSUSE project
Many things are just not there *yet*, it's that simple.
Putting up an initiative like this doesn't happen in 4 weeks' time.
And if you get the feeling that there isn't much happening at the moment, you're right, but it's
because 10.0 has to be finished and everyone at SUSE is busy doing so.
cheers
- --
-o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/
/\\
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Keep in mind what the current state of the openSUSE project is: it has just begun, and there's still a lot to do, both on the SUSE/Novell side as on ours (the community).
Well said! [...]
Making this a "user" mailing-list would kill openSUSE, it's already drowned with such e-mails as of now. "Developers" (i.e. packagers, committers, active community members, ...) also need a mailing-list to communicate their ideas, what they've always been missing, etc... with people from SUSE/Novell.
I guess we will have additional mailinglists on special topics (like packaging) soon. Creating a user list @openSUSE.org is something which should be avoided, because there are already that kind of lists @suse.com, which shoulnd't be replaced and/or duplicated. Keep in mind, that this is all about SUSE Linux...! [...]
IMHO web forums suck really, really bad. And there are already some SUSE web forums.
I think it's much better to embrace and extend what already exists in the community instead of starting everything from scratch.
Just a very short comment on web forums: The problem I see there is, that we don't have an "official" (web-)forum (yet). We didn't say, ok, let's create yet another forum, to create the community. One of the main goals that we defined, before we launched the openSUSE project, was to bring together existing community efforts _but_ by no means replace or pass those existing communities over. To succeed in the end-user related areas and to take some traffic of this list, (web-) forums will be inevitable in my opinion. Regards Christoph
On Sat, Sep 17, 2005 at 11:12:50AM +0200, Christoph Thiel wrote:
To succeed in the end-user related areas and to take some traffic of this list, (web-) forums will be inevitable in my opinion.
It might be. I won't touch them with a stick. The only webforum I sometimes visit is /. and even that is more entertainment then anything else. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Hi Peter, On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Peter Flodin wrote:
I am a little confused with one regard of the openSUSE project and the goal of making SUSE Linux the most widely used Linux. And something that I believe will need to be changed in the near future to achieve that goal.
It has become quite clear that the openSUSE project is not really a user project, and in its current form is a developer only project. Just look at the example of normal users asking for help on this supposedly general openSUSE mailing list and told to go to a non-opensuse place because this is a development list.
Actually the openSUSE project aims to achieve both, "making SUSE Linux the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain and the most widely used Linux distribution", "leverage open source collaboration to make SUSE Linux the world's most usable Linux distribution and desktop environment for new and experienced Linux users" and "dramatically simplify and open the development and packaging processes to make SUSE Linux the platform of choice for Linux developers and software vendors". [Note, this was taken from http://www.opensuse.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions and may include some marketing buzz ;))]
This now also confuses the aim of the openSUSE wiki (my main contributional input to this project so far), who is it aimed at? The end-user or the openSUSE developer/contributor?
At the moment it is _the place to go_ if you are interested in openSUSE, no matter if you are a developer or an end-users. From my point of view both "audiences" are able to contribute to openSUSE / SUSE Linux in their own way. (While developers are able to contribute packages, bugfixes, etc, end-users are also able to contribute in terms of documentation and helping other users and/or reporting bugs, too.)
If I want to write SUSE end-user wiki should I go to: http://wiki.novell.com/index.php/Cool_Solutions_Wiki_Main_Page ? or perhaps submit articles to http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/ (and even earn points).
No, please stick with the wiki on openSUSE.org. We are currently working on importing the support database (SDB) to the wiki, which I regard as a huge step towards the "end-user group".
I would like openSUSE be a distro with a user community to rival anybody and here is what I believe openSUSE should do: 1. Rename SUSE Linux OSS to openSUSE Linux - you can't build a user community if you have nothing to build it around. 2. OpenSUSE.org has to be a full self contained entity with a "everyone is Welcome here" attitutude. This therefore requires web forums for support. Mailing lists and news readers are not good enough for newbies. There is no choice. If you don't like web forums, get over it or don't go there, the mailing lists should be untouched.
Please let's not reiterate this dicussion again. You may rest assured that we are taking this issues very serious! I would just ask you to be patient for the time being, as we will need some time (I guess 1-2 weeks) to sort our things and get back to you as soon as we are done. (The lasts weeks have been very busy, the SUSE Linux 10 release is coming closer and we also had Brainshare in BCN.) Regards Christoph
No, please stick with the wiki on openSUSE.org. We are currently working on importing the support database (SDB) to the wiki, which I regard as a huge step towards the "end-user group". Excellent..
we are taking this issues very serious! I would just ask you to be patient for the time being, as we will need some time (I guess 1-2 weeks) to sort I can do that...I'll be here.
I did say I was confused, not disillusioned, all I needed to know was that I am not going in a direction where nobody else was going....
Hi there, this is yet another example that we need to take appropriate action in the fields of naming/branding openSUSE and in implementing the focuses of openSUSE (end-user focus vs. developer focus). Regards Christoph On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Christoph Thiel wrote:
Hi Peter,
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Peter Flodin wrote:
I am a little confused with one regard of the openSUSE project and the goal of making SUSE Linux the most widely used Linux. And something that I believe will need to be changed in the near future to achieve that goal.
It has become quite clear that the openSUSE project is not really a user project, and in its current form is a developer only project. Just look at the example of normal users asking for help on this supposedly general openSUSE mailing list and told to go to a non-opensuse place because this is a development list.
Actually the openSUSE project aims to achieve both, "making SUSE Linux the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain and the most widely used Linux distribution", "leverage open source collaboration to make SUSE Linux the world's most usable Linux distribution and desktop environment for new and experienced Linux users" and "dramatically simplify and open the development and packaging processes to make SUSE Linux the platform of choice for Linux developers and software vendors". [Note, this was taken from http://www.opensuse.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions and may include some marketing buzz ;))]
This now also confuses the aim of the openSUSE wiki (my main contributional input to this project so far), who is it aimed at? The end-user or the openSUSE developer/contributor?
At the moment it is _the place to go_ if you are interested in openSUSE, no matter if you are a developer or an end-users. From my point of view both "audiences" are able to contribute to openSUSE / SUSE Linux in their own way. (While developers are able to contribute packages, bugfixes, etc, end-users are also able to contribute in terms of documentation and helping other users and/or reporting bugs, too.)
If I want to write SUSE end-user wiki should I go to: http://wiki.novell.com/index.php/Cool_Solutions_Wiki_Main_Page ? or perhaps submit articles to http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/ (and even earn points).
No, please stick with the wiki on openSUSE.org. We are currently working on importing the support database (SDB) to the wiki, which I regard as a huge step towards the "end-user group".
I would like openSUSE be a distro with a user community to rival anybody and here is what I believe openSUSE should do: 1. Rename SUSE Linux OSS to openSUSE Linux - you can't build a user community if you have nothing to build it around. 2. OpenSUSE.org has to be a full self contained entity with a "everyone is Welcome here" attitutude. This therefore requires web forums for support. Mailing lists and news readers are not good enough for newbies. There is no choice. If you don't like web forums, get over it or don't go there, the mailing lists should be untouched.
Please let's not reiterate this dicussion again. You may rest assured that we are taking this issues very serious! I would just ask you to be patient for the time being, as we will need some time (I guess 1-2 weeks) to sort our things and get back to you as soon as we are done. (The lasts weeks have been very busy, the SUSE Linux 10 release is coming closer and we also had Brainshare in BCN.)
On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Christoph Thiel wrote:
this is yet another example that we need to take appropriate action in the fields of naming/branding openSUSE and in implementing the focuses of openSUSE (end-user focus vs. developer focus).
*ignore*... I should get some coffee, too ;) Regards Christoph
Peter Flodin wrote:
I would like openSUSE be a distro with a user community to rival anybody
be aware that, right now, there _no_ SUSE Linux 10.0, and so _no_ users only guys :-). only with the final release this community will grow. I understand that new wiki's are to be created, at least in a language basis. It's sure, at a moment or at an other, it will be mandatory to have separate devs/beta testers system and end user system. My concern is will SUSE Linux 10.0 supersede totally the previous SUSE distros? Is the different approach given by opensuse compatible with the kind of support actually given by suse traditional mailing lists? What I see on the SLE (SUSE Linux -e list) is that there are many fairly old SUSE version on air (Myself I use 9.0 on my own server) and these are not supported by the opensuse web site. Or will they??? jdd -- pour m'écrire, aller sur: http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.net http://arvamip.free.fr
On Sat, Sep 17, 2005 at 09:42:19AM +0200, jdd wrote:
What I see on the SLE (SUSE Linux -e list) is that there are many fairly old SUSE version on air (Myself I use 9.0 on my own server) and these are not supported by the opensuse web site. Or will they???
If I wriet something for openSUSE.org, it will have 10.0 in the back of my mind. I however try to do it as generic as possible and unless SUSE suddenly does something completely different, it might cause problems. e.g. changing the X server could mean that some things won't work (Matrox G550 configuration for example) I think the best thing to do is focus on the future so 10.0 onwards. If you see a page where 9.x does things in a different way, just add that information. What openSUSE supports depends on us, the comunity. Whatever we put in it (within reason) is what openSUSE supports and is. houghi -- Quote correct (NL) http://www.briachons.org/art/quote/ Zitiere richtig (DE) http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren Quote correctly (EN) http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
participants (5)
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Christoph Thiel -
houghi -
jdd -
Pascal Bleser -
Peter Flodin