[opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only) - openSUSE Users

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[opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

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Jim Henderson

20 May 2008 20 May '08

05:18

On Tue, 20 May 2008 00:20:24 -0400, Sam Clemens wrote:

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Not re-arrangements of software that already works well And certainly not replacements of software that works well and is stable with alpha software which is buggy and incomplete.

I'll probably regret asking this, but what *would* make you happy? TPTB have said that KDE4 is to be included as *an option*, not a replacement for KDE3 and not the default option. That doesn't seem to be making you happy at all, so as an outsider, I'm not really clear as to what it is that you want other than to shout into the wind. I'm sure that's not the case, but you're not being particularly clear. So what sort of answer would make you happy? Leave out all the invective, and just answer that simple question. One sentence, simply stated. Not a paragraph, not a novel-length missive. One sentence, that's all I ask. Be concise, be clear. Please. Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Sam Clemens

20 May 20 May

05:46

Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Tue, 20 May 2008 00:20:24 -0400, Sam Clemens wrote:

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Not re-arrangements of software that already works well And certainly not replacements of software that works well and is stable with alpha software which is buggy and incomplete.

I'll probably regret asking this, but what *would* make you happy?

TPTB have said that KDE4 is to be included as *an option*, not a replacement for KDE3 and not the default option. That doesn't seem to be

That's a statement which so far has not been categorically made by any SUSE personnel.

...

making you happy at all, so as an outsider, I'm not really clear as to what it is that you want other than to shout into the wind. I'm sure that's not the case, but you're not being particularly clear.

A clear cut pronouncement that KDE 3 will be the favored version of KDE in the 11.0 release, and every future release which occurs BEFORE KDE 4 is of production release quality.

...

So what sort of answer would make you happy?

The same one we've been trying to drag out of them for several months now -- that KDE 3 will not be abandoned, sidelined, or otherwise deprecated for a currently immature KDE 4. Why is it so difficult for anyone within SUSE to make such a simple, clear, direct statement? I want to move to KDE 4 as badly as anybody...but not at the cost of having to put up with loss of functionality and bugware. If I wanted that kind of headache, I would just use Windows.

...

Leave out all the invective, and just answer that simple question. One sentence, simply stated. Not a paragraph, not a novel-length missive. One sentence, that's all I ask. Be concise, be clear.

Well, all the squawking seems to have gotten the attention of at least one person. Now lets see if the SUSE personnel are equally observant.

...

Please.

Jim

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

16:42

On Tue, 20 May 2008 01:46:41 -0400, Sam Clemens wrote:

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TPTB have said that KDE4 is to be included as *an option*, not a replacement for KDE3 and not the default option. That doesn't seem to be

That's a statement which so far has not been categorically made by any SUSE personnel.

[...]

...

A clear cut pronouncement that KDE 3 will be the favored version of KDE in the 11.0 release, and every future release which occurs BEFORE KDE 4 is of production release quality.

[...]

...

that KDE 3 will not be abandoned, sidelined, or otherwise deprecated for a currently immature KDE 4.

Can someone from the openSUSE team confirm the intent with regards to KDE3 and KDE4? Just a simple "KDE4 will be an option, KDE3 will still be available" and "either KDE3 will be preferred over KDE4" or "there will be no preference between the two" will suffice.

...

Well, all the squawking seems to have gotten the attention of at least one person. Now lets see if the SUSE personnel are equally observant.

Well, I only responded because the thread has gone on forever and I for one would much rather see it end so I can stay focused on the other discussions that are here. I've felt that those discusions have just been drowned out by the constant shouting over this. Thanks. Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

22:08

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-05-20 at 16:42 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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Can someone from the openSUSE team confirm the intent with regards to KDE3 and KDE4? Just a simple "KDE4 will be an option, KDE3 will still be available" and "either KDE3 will be preferred over KDE4" or "there will be no preference between the two" will suffice.

You can check for yourself on the beta. The choices there are final. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIM0wAtTMYHG2NR9URAhHqAJ9e6sHTUUj3uXjE+SFtLqJaMCnqFQCggh2D 6hmJTdQ4lfCksEGHgdaLkrs= =gQGt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

22:12

On Wed, 21 May 2008 00:08:51 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Tuesday 2008-05-20 at 16:42 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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Can someone from the openSUSE team confirm the intent with regards to KDE3 and KDE4? Just a simple "KDE4 will be an option, KDE3 will still be available" and "either KDE3 will be preferred over KDE4" or "there will be no preference between the two" will suffice.

You can check for yourself on the beta. The choices there are final.

As my beta machine is in the office and I'm not until Thursday, perhaps someone could just give a clear answer? Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller

10:45

Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Wed, 21 May 2008 00:08:51 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Tuesday 2008-05-20 at 16:42 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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Can someone from the openSUSE team confirm the intent with regards to KDE3 and KDE4? Just a simple "KDE4 will be an option, KDE3 will still be available" and "either KDE3 will be preferred over KDE4" or "there will be no preference between the two" will suffice. You can check for yourself on the beta. The choices there are final.

As my beta machine is in the office and I'm not until Thursday, perhaps someone could just give a clear answer?

Jim, the DVD beta has a "caution" about installing 4.0.....not as stable nor functional as 3.*. I've been lead to believe that WILL be the case also when 11.0 releases. Fred -- Linux is an old Latin word meaning, "I don't have to support your Windows anymore." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

22:39

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 00:12:23 Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Wed, 21 May 2008 00:08:51 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Tuesday 2008-05-20 at 16:42 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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Can someone from the openSUSE team confirm the intent with regards to KDE3 and KDE4? Just a simple "KDE4 will be an option, KDE3 will still be available" and "either KDE3 will be preferred over KDE4" or "there will be no preference between the two" will suffice.

You can check for yourself on the beta. The choices there are final.

As my beta machine is in the office and I'm not until Thursday, perhaps someone could just give a clear answer?

An update will keep your present choice. The new install presents you with a choice between kde3, kde4, gnome and other - none of which is preselected. Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin

21 May 21 May

22:04

Anders Johansson wrote:

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On Wednesday 21 May 2008 00:12:23 Jim Henderson wrote:

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On Wed, 21 May 2008 00:08:51 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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The Tuesday 2008-05-20 at 16:42 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

...
Can someone from the openSUSE team confirm the intent with regards to KDE3 and KDE4? Just a simple "KDE4 will be an option, KDE3 will still be available" and "either KDE3 will be preferred over KDE4" or "there will be no preference between the two" will suffice. You can check for yourself on the beta. The choices there are final. As my beta machine is in the office and I'm not until Thursday, perhaps someone could just give a clear answer?

An update will keep your present choice.

The new install presents you with a choice between kde3, kde4, gnome and other - none of which is preselected.

Anders

Whew..... The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta? If I was a newbie (not that I'm not) and I was given the choice of installing Ver. 3 or Ver. 4 of something, I would always think 4 was better. This issue might cause the new user (not to mention the list and novell support) a great deal of frustration if there is nothing to show that kde4 is for "brave" users only. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

22:15

* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

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Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta?

BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features you wish/need, but it is *not* beta or alpha (pre-bata).

...

If I was a newbie (not that I'm not) and I was given the choice of installing Ver. 3 or Ver. 4 of something, I would always think 4 was better. This issue might cause the new user (not to mention the list and novell support) a great deal of frustration if there is nothing to show that kde4 is for "brave" users only.

The "new" user will do as he wishes until he realizes where he stands. It's almost like reading the eulas. Most *blindly* accept whatever is presented. If he is *really* interested, he will look online and do a small (or large) amount of research. After all, how many frequent posters here ask questions that have been answered early the same day or multiple times in the recent past? Door #1, or Door #2, or Door #3, and then there is also Door #4. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Washington Irving

22:28

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

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Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta?

BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features

Read the KDE website. It CLEARLY STATES that KDE 4 will not even be beta until some unspecified date this summer. Current version of KDE 4 is described as ALPHA. Now matter how many time you repeat it, it won't turn a lie into truth. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

22:32

New subject: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Washington Irving wrote:

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

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Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta?

BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features

Read the KDE website. It CLEARLY STATES that KDE 4 will not even be beta until some unspecified date this summer.

Current version of KDE 4 is described as ALPHA.

Now matter how many time you repeat it, it won't turn a lie into truth.

Perhaps if you posted a link to EXACTLY where that statement is made..... -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Washington Irving

22:36

New subject: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

John Andersen wrote:

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On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Washington Irving wrote:

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

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Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta? BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features Read the KDE website. It CLEARLY STATES that KDE 4 will not even be beta until some unspecified date this summer.

Current version of KDE 4 is described as ALPHA.

Now matter how many time you repeat it, it won't turn a lie into truth.

Perhaps if you posted a link to EXACTLY where that statement is made.....

http://www.kde.org Its on the home page. How could you miss it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

22:40

New subject: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

* Washington Irving [05-21-08 18:37]:

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http://www.kde.org

Its on the home page. How could you miss it?

<quote> Latest Announcements Hotspot KDE 4.0.4 available. On 7th May 2008, the KDE Community released the fourth update to the new major version of the K Desktop Environment. This release is a service update for the KDE 4.0 desktop released earlier this year. </quote> -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

22:41

New subject: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Washington Irving wrote:

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John Andersen wrote:

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On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Washington Irving wrote:

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

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Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta?

BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features

Read the KDE website. It CLEARLY STATES that KDE 4 will not even be beta until some unspecified date this summer.

Current version of KDE 4 is described as ALPHA.

Now matter how many time you repeat it, it won't turn a lie into truth.

Perhaps if you posted a link to EXACTLY where that statement is made.....

http://www.kde.org

Its on the home page. How could you miss it? --

Perhaps you should refresh your cache..... It says nothing about KDE4 being Beta. How could you have imagined it did? -- ----------JSA---------

Washington Irving

23:10

New subject: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

John Andersen wrote:

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On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Washington Irving wrote:

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John Andersen wrote:

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On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Washington Irving wrote:

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

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Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta? BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features Read the KDE website. It CLEARLY STATES that KDE 4 will not even be beta until some unspecified date this summer.

Current version of KDE 4 is described as ALPHA.

Now matter how many time you repeat it, it won't turn a lie into truth. Perhaps if you posted a link to EXACTLY where that statement is made.....

http://www.kde.org

Its on the home page. How could you miss it? --

Perhaps you should refresh your cache..... It says nothing about KDE4 being Beta. How could you have imagined it did?

It was there on Friday the 18th. I wouldn't make such a statement if it had not been there. Strange how last week this wasn't challenged when the statement was on the KDE home page, but now that it's been replaced.... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

23:26

New subject: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Washington Irving wrote:

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It says nothing about KDE4 being Beta. How could you have imagined it did?

It was there on Friday the 18th.

I wouldn't make such a statement if it had not been there.

Strange how last week this wasn't challenged when the statement was on the KDE home page, but now that it's been replaced....

I don't discount that possibility. The web master doesn't even date page changes, so its hard to tell when he changed it, but I suspect this thread has attracted a lot of attention in the KDE camp and they have rushed to paint over the evidence. They still say that KDE 3.5.9 is the "Stable version" leaving one to guess what description might apply to KDE4. I would expect that wording to change as soon as they catch wind of this. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John

22 May 22 May

00:01

New subject: [opensuse] Re: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

On Thursday 22 May 2008 00:26:25 John Andersen wrote:

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On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Washington Irving

wrote:

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It says nothing about KDE4 being Beta. How could you have imagined it did?

It was there on Friday the 18th.

I wouldn't make such a statement if it had not been there.

Strange how last week this wasn't challenged when the statement was on the KDE home page, but now that it's been replaced....

I don't discount that possibility. The web master doesn't even date page changes, so its hard to tell when he changed it, but I suspect this thread has attracted a lot of attention in the KDE camp and they have rushed to paint over the evidence.

They still say that KDE 3.5.9 is the "Stable version" leaving one to guess what description might apply to KDE4.

I would expect that wording to change as soon as they catch wind of this. -- ----------JSA---------

If you look at the current kde home page you will see that 4.1 preview is available. They aren't hiding anything on 4.04. It's the usual way kde goes. They chop off releases rather than continue to develop them. I don't blame them but it's not that good for users. A 0.1 increase in KDE is a significant change and may differ from -0.1 in many ways. Suse aught to say the same as kde about the current 3. release. It will be enterprise class and in all probability much more so than doze. Who cares what novell say in real terms there are many linux disto's about as they are very likely to find out. I've seen comments about vista. Wife has to use it - uk education authority - so does brother in a variety of ways business and pleasure. It's ok for them. I've found a couple of lap top insanaties but over all given the updates it's stable maybe irritating but ok for the majority of users. Add what one usually would and it makes a 2.2gig core 2 laptop slow some what. I might even tell them about the laptop wireless mouse stupidity but no doubt some one else will. That seems to be the result of an update. We even bought another mouse. One thing is very clear to me now. Vista has had a lot more pre release testing than 10.3 86 64bit ever has. Some of the expected software has never ever been tested by any one. Given that I'm inclined to think it's time novell bit the dust. John -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

21 May 21 May

22:42

On Thursday 22 May 2008 00:28:26 Washington Irving wrote:

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

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Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta?

BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features

Read the KDE website. It CLEARLY STATES that KDE 4 will not even be beta until some unspecified date this summer.

Current version of KDE 4 is described as ALPHA.

But Aaron, will you please understand that the suse team has backported many, many fixes from 4.1 into 11.0 Will you please start trying the releases before commenting on them? I'm running beta3+ at work now, and it is running swimmingly Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Washington Irving

23:15

Anders Johansson wrote:

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On Thursday 22 May 2008 00:28:26 Washington Irving wrote:

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

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Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta? BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features Read the KDE website. It CLEARLY STATES that KDE 4 will not even be beta until some unspecified date this summer.

Current version of KDE 4 is described as ALPHA.

But Aaron, will you please understand that the suse team has backported many, many fixes from 4.1 into 11.0

You're still trying to sell a bill of goods to the unsuspecting new user. And in case you haven't heard, a business which relies on long-term customer relationships and repeat sales does not come out ahead by painting an unrealistically perfect picture for new businesses which are THINKING of moving from a different platform...only to see the promise fall apart while the product is still in the trial phase.

...

Will you please start trying the releases before commenting on them?

What makes you think I haven't?

...

I'm running beta3+ at work now, and it is running swimmingly

Anders

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

23:06

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 15:28, Washington Irving wrote:

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

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Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta?

BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features

Read the KDE website. It CLEARLY STATES that KDE 4 will not even be beta until some unspecified date this summer.

Current version of KDE 4 is described as ALPHA.

Now matter how many time you repeat it, it won't turn a lie into truth.

Where are you seeing this? When I go to http://www.kde.org/ it's pretty clear (admittedly, only to me; me being the only person whose brain and eyes I can use) that KDE 4.0 is indeed in the fully released state and that the latest stable release is 4.0.4: http://www.kde.org/announcements/ http://www.kde.org/download/ Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin

22 May 22 May

05:46

Washington Irving wrote:

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Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* David C. Rankin [05-21-08 18:05]:

...
Whew.....

The voice of reason has prevailed. To save new users from frustration is there any designation at install that will let the user know that kde4 is pre-beta?

BUT, it is not "pre-beta". It is *released*. It may lack features

Read the KDE website. It CLEARLY STATES that KDE 4 will not even be beta until some unspecified date this summer.

Current version of KDE 4 is described as ALPHA.

Now matter how many time you repeat it, it won't turn a lie into truth.

Hmm... What happened to Mark Twain? -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Randall R Schulz

13:51

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 22:46, David C. Rankin wrote:

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Washington Irving wrote:

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...

Hmm...

What happened to Mark Twain?

Even though those first rumors of his death were greatly exaggerated, now he really _is_ dead.

...

-- David C. Rankin

Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott

15:09

Randall R Schulz wrote:

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On Wednesday 21 May 2008 22:46, David C. Rankin wrote:

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Washington Irving wrote:

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... Hmm...

What happened to Mark Twain?

Even though those first rumors of his death were greatly exaggerated, now he really _is_ dead.

Well, that's the rumour. ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20 May 20 May

22:58

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-05-20 at 22:12 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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You can check for yourself on the beta. The choices there are final.

As my beta machine is in the office and I'm not until Thursday, perhaps someone could just give a clear answer?

You only see them on a fresh install, and my factory was installed months ago, I simply upgrade it. From what others have said and from a photo I saw, there is no default desktop and all are offered. However, you do have to read the notes on that screen - oh, wait, we never read screens, we just press enter blindly :-P - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIM1eKtTMYHG2NR9URAunoAJsEV1uqvQU6GdcnIvtUU8MQ4QRCIQCaAiXI cNxtwevlEhi3gWZfcPWj8oU= =2pT+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Washington Irving

23:28

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Tuesday 2008-05-20 at 22:12 -0000, Jim Henderson wrote:

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You can check for yourself on the beta. The choices there are final.

As my beta machine is in the office and I'm not until Thursday, perhaps someone could just give a clear answer?

You only see them on a fresh install, and my factory was installed months ago, I simply upgrade it. From what others have said and from a photo I saw, there is no default desktop and all are offered. However,

And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality. Talk about setting up for failure!

...

you do have to read the notes on that screen - oh, wait, we never read screens, we just press enter blindly :-P

The less computer savvy, the less likely to read anything. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson

23:45

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 01:28:09 Washington Irving wrote:

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And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality.

It's not alpha quality, Aaron. I've been running it since beta3 was released, and while there are a few things here and there, overall it's working very nicely. Much better than the build service builds for 10.3 I was running previously You should try it yourself

...

...
you do have to read the notes on that screen - oh, wait, we never read screens, we just press enter blindly :-P

The less computer savvy, the less likely to read anything.

I don't think it's possible to "just press enter" on that screen. Since nothing is preselected, you have to at least select something. Enter won't do it (I don't think - but I didn't actually try it) Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Steve Jeppesen

21 May 21 May

11:21

On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:28:09 -0400 Washington Irving wrote:

...

And that's the problem...

Did "Sam" disappear? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

16:14

On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:28:09 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality.

Having looked at the screenshot Stefan posted of the installer, I'd have to disagree. "Less mature" tells me that maybe I wouldn't want to select it unless I'm adventurous; in addition, the 3.5 release says it's mature and stable. So, if you want a mature & stable desktop, pick KDE3.5, if you want the new technologies in 4.0 (which aren't enumerated, so anyone who wants to know what those are is going to have to do some research), then pick 4.0. The more I look at this screen, the more I understand the developer's point of view. Could it be clarified and pointed out as alpha/beta software? Sure, but then after KDE4 releases, those installing 11 will still have the impression that KDE4 is in alpha/beta state during the installation, and maybe wouldn't choose it once it has matured and stabilized. I can kinda see the point in leaving the wording neutral regarding the current development state because the state changes over time, but a DVD doesn't. Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Washington Irving

19:46

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:28:09 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...
And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality.

Having looked at the screenshot Stefan posted of the installer, I'd have to disagree. "Less mature" tells me that maybe I wouldn't want to select it unless I'm adventurous; in addition, the 3.5 release says it's mature and stable.

"Less Mature" is not fair warning that KDE 4 is still in alpha stage.

...

So, if you want a mature & stable desktop, pick KDE3.5, if you want the new technologies in 4.0 (which aren't enumerated, so anyone who wants to know what those are is going to have to do some research), then pick 4.0.

The more I look at this screen, the more I understand the developer's point of view. Could it be clarified and pointed out as alpha/beta software? Sure, but then after KDE4 releases, those installing 11 will still have the impression that KDE4 is in alpha/beta state during the installation, and maybe wouldn't choose it once it has matured and stabilized.

KDE 4 won't be Beta until summer -- which means it will be released sometimes next winter...probably about the same time as SUSE 11.1

...

I can kinda see the point in leaving the wording neutral regarding the current development state because the state changes over time, but a DVD doesn't.

Put yourself in the position of a small-businessman, who is trying out openSUSE to see if he wants to commit to putting SLED and/or SLES in his business. Is getting screwed over by some pie-in-the-sky insistance that no warning about KDE 4's current state...which is not anywhere close to released quality as assessed by the...a good thing or a bad thing. devs themselves....

...

Jim

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John

20:13

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 20:46:48 Washington Irving wrote:

...

Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:28:09 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...
And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality.

Having looked at the screenshot Stefan posted of the installer, I'd have to disagree. "Less mature" tells me that maybe I wouldn't want to select it unless I'm adventurous; in addition, the 3.5 release says it's mature and stable.

"Less Mature" is not fair warning that KDE 4 is still in alpha stage.

...
So, if you want a mature & stable desktop, pick KDE3.5, if you want the new technologies in 4.0 (which aren't enumerated, so anyone who wants to know what those are is going to have to do some research), then pick 4.0.

The more I look at this screen, the more I understand the developer's point of view. Could it be clarified and pointed out as alpha/beta software? Sure, but then after KDE4 releases, those installing 11 will still have the impression that KDE4 is in alpha/beta state during the installation, and maybe wouldn't choose it once it has matured and stabilized.

KDE 4 won't be Beta until summer -- which means it will be released sometimes next winter...probably about the same time as SUSE 11.1

...
I can kinda see the point in leaving the wording neutral

regarding the current development state because the state changes over time, but a DVD doesn't.

Put yourself in the position of a small-businessman, who is trying out openSUSE to see if he wants to commit to putting SLED and/or SLES in his business.

Is getting screwed over by some pie-in-the-sky insistance that no warning about KDE 4's current state...which is not anywhere close to released quality as assessed by the...a good thing or a bad thing. devs themselves....

...
Jim

What aught to be put there and may well be in some other cases is that "kde4 is included for evaluation only and may contain bugs". Thanks to Gates most people know what that means. It should also be a start up option not an install to the exclusion of everything else. :) I tried a gnome install of one of their latest release apps on kde under 10.3 86_64. If my eye's didn't deceive me it wanted both older and newer dependencies. Could be that 3. is the only one worth using. John -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy

22 May 22 May

01:42

On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 15:46 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

Put yourself in the position of a small-businessman, who is trying out openSUSE to see if he wants to commit to putting SLED and/or SLES in his business.

Is getting screwed over by some pie-in-the-sky insistance that no warning about KDE 4's current state...which is not anywhere close to released quality as assessed by the...a good thing or a bad thing. devs themselves....

He'd probably be getting more screwed over by the fact SLED's desktop isn't KDE at all ;-) -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail | Yo.media: 225-590-5961 Swift Change for a Green Future: Kat Swift for President www.VoteSwift.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

21 May 21 May

18:49

New subject: [opensuse] Alfa, Beta... was: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 19:28 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...

And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality.

What's in a name... Reading the comment, it made me wonder... KDE4 not being released until 2009, beta, alfa So i had a look at kde.org. Here it stated clearly that the basic framework for KDE4.0 is released. Not beta or even alfa! Just a number of addon applications that still have to be "ported" KDE-4.0.4 _IS_ released. Only reference to something being alfa is KDE4.1. (And if you want something in a (from quality P.O.V) stadium, try running Vista ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

19:03

New subject: [opensuse] Alfa, Beta... was: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 19:28 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...
And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality.

What's in a name...

Reading the comment, it made me wonder... KDE4 not being released until 2009, beta, alfa

So i had a look at kde.org. Here it stated clearly that the basic framework for KDE4.0 is released. Not beta or even alfa! Just a number of addon applications that still have to be "ported"

KDE-4.0.4 _IS_ released.

Only reference to something being alfa is KDE4.1.

(And if you want something in a (from quality P.O.V) stadium, try running Vista ;-)

Vista is at least complete, not lacking any features in XP, highly configurable, and in my experience very stable. But to your main point: that KDE4 is Released.... You MUST realize that the claim that it is Released is simply further condemnation of KDE4, making it even less suitable! It is almost impossible to configure to any degree comparable to KDE3. If the core of KDE4 is released, and a few addons are all that remains undone it does not bode well for KDE4. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller

11:34

New subject: [opensuse] Alfa, Beta... was: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

John Andersen wrote:

...

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...
On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 19:28 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...
And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality.

What's in a name...

Reading the comment, it made me wonder... KDE4 not being released until 2009, beta, alfa

So i had a look at kde.org. Here it stated clearly that the basic framework for KDE4.0 is released. Not beta or even alfa! Just a number of addon applications that still have to be "ported"

KDE-4.0.4 _IS_ released.

Only reference to something being alfa is KDE4.1.

(And if you want something in a (from quality P.O.V) stadium, try running Vista ;-)

Vista is at least complete, not lacking any features in XP, highly configurable, and in my experience very stable.

But to your main point: that KDE4 is Released....

You MUST realize that the claim that it is Released is simply further condemnation of KDE4, making it even less suitable!

It is almost impossible to configure to any degree comparable to KDE3. If the core of KDE4 is released, and a few addons are all that remains undone it does not bode well for KDE4.

Sure doesn't!! Basics like no way to hide the taskbar and other admin. settings are missing....just for starters. Fred -- Linux is an old Latin word meaning, "I don't have to support your Windows anymore." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

20:50

New subject: [opensuse] Alfa, Beta... was: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

* John Andersen [05-21-08 15:06]:

...

But to your main point: that KDE4 is Released....

You MUST realize that the claim that it is Released is simply further condemnation of KDE4, making it even less suitable!

It is almost impossible to configure to any degree comparable to KDE3. If the core of KDE4 is released, and a few addons are all that remains undone it does not bode well for KDE4.

So let's quit the bitching about the state of kde4. You *have* a choice. Choose to not use kde4. There is no reason to continue to claim that it is no good/doesn't work/.... DON'T USE IT. Everybody installing HAS a choice. You might as well bitch about the state of the world for all the good the BITCHING will/is do/doing. This subject has been plummeted to death, to the point that it is really off-topic in this forum. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen

20:53

New subject: [opensuse] Alfa, Beta... was: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* John Andersen [05-21-08 15:06]:

...

This subject has been plummeted to death, to the point that it is really off-topic in this forum.

Not at all off topic. Its directly related to OpenSuse. Besides, I missed the memo appointing you the list police. -- ----------JSA--------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

20:59

New subject: [opensuse] Alfa, Beta... was: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

* John Andersen [05-21-08 16:54]:

...

Besides, I missed the memo appointing you the list police.

Gee, I thought you belonged, also. As a community effort, all of us here are "list police". Sorry you don't feel you belong! Now, your reason for being here (besides *bitching*)? -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Washington Irving

21:01

New subject: [opensuse] Alfa, Beta... was: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* John Andersen [05-21-08 15:06]:

...
But to your main point: that KDE4 is Released....

You MUST realize that the claim that it is Released is simply further condemnation of KDE4, making it even less suitable!

It is almost impossible to configure to any degree comparable to KDE3. If the core of KDE4 is released, and a few addons are all that remains undone it does not bode well for KDE4.

So let's quit the bitching about the state of kde4. You *have* a choice. Choose to not use kde4. There is no reason to continue to claim that it is no good/doesn't work/.... DON'T USE IT.

Everybody installing HAS a choice.

The point is, informing NEW users of how to make a choice which is most suitable for them. I'm sure MANY non-Linux users have heard of KDE. But how many know the difference between KDE 3 and KDE 4. If someone is thinking of moving his or her small business off of Windows...because VISTA is a pig...and so they try openSUSE... and they don't know anything about the difference between KDE 3 and KDE 4...well then, it's up to SUSE to give the proper information, at the appropriate point in the install process, for that person to make the software selection that gets him what he wants (i.e. is he a busy shop, and needs utter and complete reliability...or is his business somewhat slow, and a person who is technologically oriented and likes to tinker with new things). Do you know why Windows rules the desktop? Because it rules the BUSINESS desktop. People stopped buying Amigas and Ataris and other microcomputers because they wanted to have the same system at home as what they had at work. Don't shoot the small businesman in the kneecaps.

...

You might as well bitch about the state of the world for all the good the BITCHING will/is do/doing.

This subject has been plummeted to death, to the point that it is really off-topic in this forum.

No, it's not. How an upcoming release is presented to a person doing an install is definitely ON topic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

23:25

New subject: [opensuse] Alfa, Beta... was: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 12:03 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

...

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...
On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 19:28 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...
And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality.

What's in a name...

Reading the comment, it made me wonder... KDE4 not being released until 2009, beta, alfa

So i had a look at kde.org. Here it stated clearly that the basic framework for KDE4.0 is released. Not beta or even alfa! Just a number of addon applications that still have to be "ported"

KDE-4.0.4 _IS_ released.

Only reference to something being alfa is KDE4.1.

(And if you want something in a (from quality P.O.V) stadium, try running Vista ;-)

Vista is at least complete, not lacking any features in XP, highly configurable, and in my experience very stable.

But to your main point: that KDE4 is Released....

You MUST realize that the claim that it is Released is simply further condemnation of KDE4, making it even less suitable!

It is almost impossible to configure to any degree comparable to KDE3. If the core of KDE4 is released, and a few addons are all that remains undone it does not bode well for KDE4.

Don't want to condemn kde4, on the contrary. Just want people to have go at it. Sure, i know not all work is done (to put it mildly) Seeing the amount of packages that are updated daily on the buildserver give you a fair indication how much work is still done.... Not just on unstable or factory, but for "stable" as well. But it looks and feels good! And about "the other" branche... Just bought an Acer-L3600 for one of the kids for a very, very simple game that learns him arithmetics (table-trainer) I won't complain about the truckload of irritating pop-up messages that a little kid does not understand and can't be switched off. No Vista is rock solid, freezes within an hour and has to pull the powerplug to stop it. (in contrast to xp) No, no virus, it's never been connected to the net and behaved like that out-of-the-box. With quality poducts like that, Linux is not an obvious choise, merely the only choise. Seriously are tempted to have a go at wine... hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Washington Irving

19:49

New subject: [opensuse] Alfa, Beta... was: Suse 10.3 install - oh dear (rant only)

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Tue, 2008-05-20 at 19:28 -0400, Washington Irving wrote:

...
And that's the problem... there's NO indication to those unfamiliar to Linux that KDE 4 is still alpha-quality.

What's in a name...

Reading the comment, it made me wonder... KDE4 not being released until 2009, beta, alfa

So i had a look at kde.org. Here it stated clearly that the basic framework for KDE4.0 is released. Not beta or even alfa! Just a number of addon applications that still have to be "ported"

KDE-4.0.4 _IS_ released.

Only reference to something being alfa is KDE4.1.

Please remove your head from your rear orifice.

...

(And if you want something in a (from quality P.O.V) stadium, try running Vista ;-)

Flippant remarks like that don't create trust in the user base. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson

02:35

On Wed, 21 May 2008 00:58:17 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

You only see them on a fresh install, and my factory was installed months ago, I simply upgrade it. From what others have said and from a photo I saw, there is no default desktop and all are offered. However, you do have to read the notes on that screen - oh, wait, we never read screens, we just press enter blindly :-P

OK, thanks for the clarification. Jim -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Hundhammer

10:46

New subject: [opensuse] 11.0-Beta3+ Installation Screen Shots - Was: Re: Suse 10.3 install...

On Wednesday 21 May 2008 00:12, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

...
You can check for yourself on the beta. The choices there are final.

As my beta machine is in the office and I'm not until Thursday, perhaps someone could just give a clear answer?

I just made some screen shots of the installation: http://www.suse.de/~sh/yast2/11.0-Beta3Plus/ Desktop selection: (GNOME, KDE4, KDE3): http://www.suse.de/~sh/yast2/11.0-Beta3Plus/yast2-004-desktop.png CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin

20 May 20 May

06:53

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 20 May 2008 00:20:24 -0400, Sam Clemens wrote:

...
Not re-arrangements of software that already works well And certainly not replacements of software that works well and is stable with alpha software which is buggy and incomplete.

I'll probably regret asking this, but what *would* make you happy?

TPTB have said that KDE4 is to be included as *an option*, not a replacement for KDE3 and not the default option. That doesn't seem to be making you happy at all, so as an outsider, I'm not really clear as to what it is that you want other than to shout into the wind. I'm sure that's not the case, but you're not being particularly clear.

So what sort of answer would make you happy?

To begin with, I am NOT answering for "Sam" but for myself. In the second place, I do not know what "TPTB" stands for so my response has to be taken in this context of ignorance. For the 'answer': KDE4 is NOT included in 11.0 as an OPTION per se. It is listed in the installation as the second selectable Desktop and not under the OTHER option which, to my brainless mind, spells ,"Duh, OK, Novell has given me the Desktops which it offers as the 'ants' pants' but here is what they show are the real options of what I could try if I want to take my life into my own hands. Never heard of Gnome, except in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, and they ain't nice things, so I'll go with KDE". The selectable Desktops during the installation process are: Gnome, KDE4, KDE3, Other. Now, guess what people who are "all excited" about installing openSUSE 11.0 are going to do when they come across this? To any normal person, a number higher than another number indicates that the higher number is better. Simple psychology. But the one thing which the sales department in Novell have yet to learn and come to grips with is that bad news travels FAST. The advertising industry knows that people who get a good impression of a product only inform a few people they know. But a bad impression is transmitted to ~20 people they know (this info is based on memory - but the general relativity is about right) and each of those then does the same. The bottom line to your question about "what ... answer would make [you] happy?" is that KDE4 should be placed in the "OTHER" option of the installation process and only be listed as a main item when it is really ready of that ranking. Ciao. -- Vulgar language is the linguistic crutch of inarticulate persons. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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17 participants

participants (17)

Anders Johansson
Basil Chupin
Carlos E. R.
David C. Rankin
Fred A. Miller
Hans Witvliet
James Knott
Jim Henderson
John
John Andersen
Kevin Dupuy
Patrick Shanahan
Randall R Schulz
Sam Clemens
Stefan Hundhammer
Steve Jeppesen
Washington Irving