I can't stand it - I have to put in my 2 cents worth about this. <soapbox> I read the article listed, below, and I can't understand what you all are so upset about. The CEO of SuSE is pretty much on the mark with his comments, and I don't see how they are negative at all. The comments accurately describe the current situation with desktop OS'es in many ways, especially Linux. One thing that I keep running into with people of any kind is that most of them assume that other people think like they do. I know you might be shocked if I tell you that they don't think like you do. And that means that most people don't give a damn about what OS they are running. What most people *do* care about (and they share this with you) is getting their job done, whatever that may be. Those computer people like us are concerned with stability of an OS, networkability, flexibility, *control*, etc. But the majority of people out there are more concerned with working collaboratively on documents for business, reading email effectively, getting contracts out, conducting business. A computer is a tool that is in the background, and they use it because they have to get a job done. When I install Linux, I have to know an awful lot about my system - details that most people don't even know exist. That information is required just to get a successful networkable installation up and running. Beyond that, the interoperability of applications for the Linux platform with other platforms is just not there. I have tried WordPerfect, Star Office, Applix, you name it. I can't get my work done with those tools when other people expect me to work with a Word 98/2000 document that uses advanced Word formatting tools because it is a *business* document. Hell, I can't even cut and paste from one document to Netscape Navigator without jacking around "the system". The reality is that MS applications have a load of market share, and if my Linux applications can't do everything that an MS app can, then I can't use it. Period. There is no evil in this, there is no shadow government causing this to happen, there is no conspiracy theory out there for this. It is just the way that it is, and the SuSE CEO did a good job descsribing it. What I *would* worry about are those people who are not aware of this reality, and go out with "enthusiasm" to try and create a business. Good luck. You need a lot more than enthusiasm to dominate a market, or even to carve out substantial market share. Those who understand that can do well by it. Those that don't are doomed to failure and bitterness at some shadowy evil empire that doesn't really exist. </soapbox>

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/03/02/no.linux.desktop.idg/index.html

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if suse ever quits or goes bad i will just use one of my previous purchased copies and just upgrade individual packages as long as i can or switch to mandrake.... i just hope suse never turns to the dark side... On Sat, 04 Mar 2000 13:54:55 -0600, Jerry L Kreps wrote:

A thought just occured to me: What if there are other CEO's in the SuSE management who think the way Roland Dryoff does. With anchors like that holding the boat back SuSE will never reach it's true potential. It makes one start thinking about Mandrake. :-( JLK

Daniel Woodard wrote:

...

http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/03/02/no.linux.desktop.idg/index.html _____________________________________________________

Daniel Woodard

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I couldn't agree more with John. There is a difference in people that using desktop and graphical apps and to "M$ desktop users' A Linux user that uses desktop (including me) are people who wants to find their mouse somehow useful ;-) they don't compare with a 'desktop user' that when you tell him "copy the file from the CD to the HD" will respond "I click Start and then what?' (don't laugh, it has happened to me ;-) About Dyroff's comments, I believe that his referring to a 'desktop user' very well described by John. Linux desktop environment is not in a stage that can be used by this kind people (I can't find an office app with a cute clip or red jumping ball that will corrects my spelling errors, nor a wizard that will connect me to the internet automatically) Frankly, I DON'T WANT them, if I needed those things I would stay on win. And yes I would be upset if modules.conf, xf86config etc. where removed. That's Linux after all, the 'power' that you have over the operating system and its applications. John Grant wrote:

Joe Hylkema said:

...

I'm living proof that it's more than ready for the desktop. I was running Linux as the sole OS on my sole desktop box before I became a computer science student here at WSU. Even now, I've had but one CS class (Introduction to C programming) and I'm running Linux just fine, thank you. I INSTALLED it and am running it beautifully even though I am myself only a notch above a desktop user.

For the SuSE CEO to say this is most disheartening. :(

People here on this list are, generally, clueful about Linux and are not who people are talking about when speaking of "desktop users". I've worked in tech- and customer-support, I know what they're like, and it isn't pretty. More to the point, I don't think Linux will cut it with them until it's pre-installed, there is a pervasive support structure (and I mean to the point that BIOSs are written for Linux, peripherals have linux drivers included on the CD in the box, etc.), and support in general is as common as for Windows.

People running Linux today will learn things like modules.conf, xf86config, and fsck (to name just a few things that intimidate and befuddle new users), possibly enjoy themselves in the process, and perhaps even get upset if you take such things away - especially if it dumbs-down the system.

Desktop users generally don't want to, they certainly won't enjoy it, and they're happy to do without, even if it means they're not getting the most out of their system or makes it less flexible. Desktop users include people who say, "beige" when asked what kind of computer they have, flip the power switch when they're done with the computer, and see nothing wrong with using root as their main account. Linux needs to consider these types of people in any attempt to move onto the desktop.

Which is not to say that none of these things are being addressed. Linux can, with a certain amount of effort and skill, be used as a desktop system now. With 2.4 Linux will be in an even better position to push (further) onto the desktop. And of course that's hardly the end of Linux's evolution.

...

For the SuSE CEO to say this is most disheartening. :(

As for preaching Money$uck's FUD, I don't think that will be an issue much longer. The government has already said "we're not talking splash screens or contractural revisions."

As far as Dyroff's comments go, don't take the article at face value. Not knowing what /else/ he said to CNN, and since CNN got to pick the quotes, that could be more CNNs slant than anything else. I've gotten so that I assume anything CNN, ABC, NBC, and the rest say is biased toward their advertisers and owners, shoddily researched, contextually disconnected, overhyped, and/or simply wrong. [Other than that, they're ok. ;) ]

If you ignore the CNN text, Dyroff basically said:

- Linux doesn't have apps. - Linux needs apps, - businesses will lead the first large-scale adoption of Linux on the desktop, - hardware support is improving, - Linux users are more computer literate than the average desktop user, - people who aren't familiar with unix have the most problems with Linux, - 6.4 will be out next month, - Red Hat sells more boxes in the U.S. than SuSE, - SuSE is expanding its international markets.

I could balk at the first comment, but my (linux newbie) brother is constantly coming up with apps that don't have a Linux counterpart, or if they do, they don't interoperate with their Windows counterpart, so the perception is definitely there. Last week it was netmeeting, for example. (If anyone can help with this question btw I'll be happy to pass any suggestions along.)

On the rest, I could quibble, but I really don't have a problem with any of them. I don't mind the lack of hype either. I'd rather have people _undersell_ it than to hype it like M$-ware and leave the users with a bad first impression. (JMHO)

-John

ps.. BTW, did anyone else look at the poll:

"Do you have Linux running on your desktop?" Yes 72% No 28%

Not that I believe on-line polls either, but it was amusingly at odds with the headline, "Linux still not ready for desktop...". :)

pps.. please direct any flames to jmgrant@primenet.com and not the list.

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-- Nicholas 12:34pm up 21:28, 4 users, load average: 0.79, 0.28, 0.45 -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Jerry L Kreps wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

...

I couldn't agree more with John. There is a difference in people that using desktop and graphical apps and to "M$ desktop users' A Linux user that uses desktop (including me) are people who wants to find their mouse somehow useful ;-) they don't compare with a 'desktop user' that when you tell him "copy the file from the CD to the HD" will respond "I click Start and then what?' (don't laugh, it has happened to me ;-)

I near the end of an 18 month development process on the biggest app in use by the dept where I work. The data entry people have gotten familiar with the mouse but still prefer to use mouseless data entry (and they are right, avoiding the mouse while entering data is preferable) but many of other users are either luddites or prefer ignorance. They are afraid that if they show their ignorance their job is threatened - therefore, the problems have to be with the app or the OS. Either they fight any and all change or they want you to put everything they do under a single button that they can click. My response to the former is "That's not rain you feel on your face, you're spitting into the wind". My response to the latter user is "if your job is so simple that a button click can replace you, then you will be replaced." Suddenly, they seem interested in learning... But, as long as they can claim it is the OS or the app that is preventing them from doing their job, they will. If these users were put on a Linux desktop nothing would change.

-=-=-=-=- I got the picture Jerry (maybe the comparing wasn't the best one but my english are not so good - never seems to fit me - no offense for the english spoken people in the list) The bottom line is that the two sort of people that you described will always exist - you can't eliminate them - but that we can do is never let the future of Linux be driven by those people because it will stop be the Linux that we all know ;-( -- Nicholas 3:38pm up 1 day, 32 min, 4 users, load average: 1.25, 1.20, 1.26 -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/

Joe Hylkema said:

...

I'm living proof that it's more than ready for the desktop. I was running Linux as the sole OS on my sole desktop box before I became a computer science student here at WSU. Even now, I've had but one CS class (Introduction to C programming) and I'm running Linux just fine, thank you. I INSTALLED it and am running it beautifully even though I am myself only a notch above a desktop user.

For the SuSE CEO to say this is most disheartening. :(

People here on this list are, generally, clueful about Linux and are not who people are talking about when speaking of "desktop users". I've worked in tech- and customer-support, I know what they're

isn't pretty. More to the point, I don't think Linux will cut it with them until it's pre-installed, there is a pervasive support structure (and I mean to the point that BIOSs are written for Linux,

----- Original Message ----- From: John Grant To: Sent: Sunday, March 05, 2000 1:13 AM Subject: Re: [SLE] SuSE hell bent on world domination! like, and it peripherals

have linux drivers included on the CD in the box, etc.), and support in general is as common as for Windows.

Desktop users generally don't want to, they certainly won't enjoy it, and they're happy to do without, even if it means they're not getting the most out of their system or makes it less flexible. Desktop users include people who say, "beige" when asked what kind of computer they have, flip the power switch when they're done with the computer, and see nothing wrong with using root as their main account. Linux needs to consider these types of people in any attempt to move onto

<snip> the desktop. In a single user system there is no concept of root there is only user. I would suspect that in most of these systems the software was preloaded. I just set up one such box and to make it even simpler to use I renamed the Outlook Express icon to say e-mail, I renamed IE to surf the web and Telix was rename o newsgroups. This is the only win95 machine I have and it's for the girlfriend to play games on. That's all that's on this machine games and a net connection.

Which is not to say that none of these things are being addressed. Linux can, with a certain amount of effort and skill, be used as a desktop system now. With 2.4 Linux will be in an even better position to push (further) onto the desktop. And of course that's hardly the end of Linux's evolution.

...

For the SuSE CEO to say this is most disheartening. :(

As for preaching Money$uck's FUD, I don't think that will be an issue much longer. The government has already said "we're not talking splash screens or contractural revisions."

As far as Dyroff's comments go, don't take the article at face value. Not knowing what /else/ he said to CNN, and since CNN got to pick the quotes, that could be more CNNs slant than anything else. I've gotten so that I assume anything CNN, ABC, NBC, and the rest say is biased toward their advertisers and owners, shoddily researched, contextually disconnected, overhyped, and/or simply wrong. [Other than that, they're ok. ;) ]

If you ignore the CNN text, Dyroff basically said:

- Linux doesn't have apps. - Linux needs apps, - businesses will lead the first large-scale adoption of Linux on the desktop, - hardware support is improving, - Linux users are more computer literate than the average desktop user, - people who aren't familiar with unix have the most

It's much easier to use linux on the desktop if it is your first system. If you are upgrading your system then you have to deal with the legacy code, and data. Spread sheets and DOC's move over quite well but I'm still working on moving the .DBX 's from OE5. I have found 1 tool but it chokes if here are too many messages in the folder. I have found that I can browse the file as text so that may be the final solution. I've been thinking what's needed is a migration tool. The old version of lotus had convert which let you inport spreadsheets from almost anywhere at the time and WP had the same or documents. It seems as MS has obtained dominance that the support for other formats has been dropped. I remember having a lot of trouble with a word 2.0 document in word 6 when we had 5 different word processors in use in the office. We couldn't agree on a standard so we ended up converting a lot. problems with

Linux, - 6.4 will be out next month, - Red Hat sells more boxes in the U.S. than SuSE, - SuSE is expanding its international markets.

I was at a Borland/Inprise show this week and they said that there was 10,000 apps waiting for Kylix to be ported to linux. At an installfewst on the weekend we had 168 people show up during reading week! My one concern was the number that were running linux from a GUI. I suppose the easy path would be to install VMware or get WINE working to make for a smooth transition, but running one OS on top of another was my original complaint against Windows in the first place and why I never when to win3.1 until borland C++ version 3 made it a requirement and my machine wasn't big enought to run OS/2 very well.

I could balk at the first comment, but my (linux newbie) brother is constantly coming up with apps that don't have a Linux counterpart, or if they do, they don't interoperate with their Windows counterpart, so the perception is definitely there. Last week it was netmeeting, for example. (If anyone can help with this question btw I'll be happy to pass any suggestions along.)

Is there an index of equivalent programs? Is there a place to advertise new programs? Shareware and Freeware has always had trouble getting into retail outlets. There is a VMS-to-linux howto maybe we need a Win-to-linux howto as well. -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/Support/Doku/FAQ/