On Tuesday 25 January 2005 10:05, Ben Higginbottom wrote: <SNIP>

In specific regards to Munich, the used car salesman crossed with a mafia don that is Steve Ballmer did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.

I had heard about that,too. I thought that maybe Ballmer had upped the anti by promising the Munich mayor a villa on Sicily or something. Good to hear how sensible the Bavarians are. Regards, jimmo -- --------------------------------------- "Be more concerned with your character than with your reputation. Your character is what you really are while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden --------------------------------------- Be sure to visit the Linux Tutorial: http://www.linux-tutorial.info --------------------------------------- NOTE: All messages sent to me in response to my posts to newsgroups or forums are subject to reposting.

On Tuesday 25 January 2005 18:23, James Knott wrote:

James Mohr wrote:

...

...

undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.

I had heard about that,too. I thought that maybe Ballmer had upped the anti by promising the Munich mayor a villa on Sicily or something. Good to hear how sensible the Bavarians are.

Drinking beer has it's benefits. ;-)

It sure does.. Beer contains all the essential vitamins except C. The only problem is the amount you have to drink to get the minimum daily requirements. But I'm trying.. ;-) Mike -- Powered by SuSE 9.2 Kernel 2.6.8 KDE 3.3.0 Kmail 1.7.1 For Mondo/Mindi backup support go to http://www.mikenjane.net/~mike 6:37pm up 3 days 1:45, 5 users, load average: 3.13, 3.20, 3.00

Per Jessen wrote:

Ben Higginbottom wrote:

...

did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.

Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004.

In some jurisdictions, that might be considered illegal.

On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 09:20, James Knott wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Ben Higginbottom wrote:

...

did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.

Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004.

In some jurisdictions, that might be considered illegal.

What do you think MS does all the time when they add/bundle in another piece of software because someone else has a competing product. The latest that comes to mind is the media player that now has to be removed from XP in Europe. I wish the US had the balls to do the same but I think our country leaders are being bought off (lobbyist) by MS. <opinion> If MS can't buy the competing product they add their own to put the competitor out of business (can you say Netscape, first one that comes to mind). </opinion> -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 * Only reply to the list please* "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge

Þann Þriðjudagur 25 janúar 2005 17:21 skrifaði Ken Schneider:

<opinion> If MS can't buy the competing product they add their own to put the competitor out of business (can you say Netscape, first one that comes to mind). </opinion>

<My not so humble opinion> MS is not at fault here, it's the "competing" product that is ... it's only natural that a company like MS tries to bully out the competition. That's what competition is about ... out maneuvering your opponent. The world is full of half wits, that sit at their MickeySoft computer, and make a PaperClip, I mean Excel document that looks nice and has some numbers in it. They sell their time "expensive" and rip off the customer, Big Time ... and it ain't MickeySoft. I just "recently" in another thread, made a comment about buisness and I ain't got stomache to repeat it. The bottom line is, that it ain't MickeySoft that's at fault ... ask yourself, why isn't their any "real" software coming from Europe? Why isn't Linux being supported and aided in Europe, after all it's a European product? Where are all the "European" friendly industries, when computer software is concerned? It's easy to go and blame MickeySoft, but Europe banning "Media Player" is a Euro Problem with legal stuff. It's like this, we peaked the oil or are "just about" to ... the prices of oil are at their highest, and likely to rise ... and Europe builds a bigger airbus, and calls it a work of genius. So, just face it ... the reason MickeySoft is doing so well, is because we here in Europe lost all our intellectuals to the US ... those of us who are still here, are guys like myself who aint got nothing of value that the US wants.

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

* Only reply to the list please*

"The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge

On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 14:07, Örn Einar Hansen wrote:

Þann Þriðjudagur 25 janúar 2005 17:21 skrifaði Ken Schneider:

...

<opinion> If MS can't buy the competing product they add their own to put the competitor out of business (can you say Netscape, first one that comes to mind). </opinion>

<My not so humble opinion> MS is not at fault here, it's the "competing" product that is ... it's only natural that a company like MS tries to bully out the competition. That's what competition is about ... out maneuvering your opponent.

No. It is about being a monopoly and using that to your advantage to undermine the competition and put them out of business. If MS HAD to compete on an even play field they would go out of business. If they want to market a media player let them sell it as a separate product in the stores like everyone else. Hell it would only create another revenue stream would it not! The problem is, their competing product is not as good yet they want to force it on the consumer. And it has been found that MOST people will not install something that is all ready installed on the PC. But now we are getting way OT here. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998 * Only reply to the list please* "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners." -Ernst Jan Plugge

On Tuesday 25 January 2005 22:46, Örn Einar Hansen wrote:

  Yeah, I know, I marked the trheat OT.

Maybe, like Microsoft, you meant you marked the "threat" as OT? <grin>

On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 12:39:11PM -0500, Mike McMullin wrote:

On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 07:57, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Ben Higginbottom wrote:

...

did apparently pay the Munich authorities a visit and made them an offer they did refuse to undercut the Suse/IBM bid sometime last year. Which makes it far more interesting as they apparently went for the best on balance bid as opposed to the cheapest.

Microsoft Germany authorised all salesmen in the public sector to offer 100% discount if they were in a competitive situation with Linux. I think this leaked out in 2003 or 2004.

Isn't that the equivalent of dumping, and against WTO policy?

Microsoft listens to policys now?

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On 26/01/05 02:42 AM, Sid Boyce wrote:

Policy Bolicy, MS doesn't care, but Munich knows a rat when they see one and what rats do to you. I read here in the UK that they have Cambridge University sown up, an object lesson in how to bribe people with their own money, call it generosity and get richer and richer on it.

IIRC doesnt the Bill Gates building have their machines dual booted with either RH9 or Fedora? Regards, Ben

Ben Higginbottom wrote:

On 26/01/05 02:42 AM, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

Policy Bolicy, MS doesn't care, but Munich knows a rat when they see one and what rats do to you. I read here in the UK that they have Cambridge University sown up, an object lesson in how to bribe people with their own money, call it generosity and get richer and richer on it.

IIRC doesnt the Bill Gates building have their machines dual booted with either RH9 or Fedora?

Regards,

Ben

Interesting, I hadn't heard that. Perhaps more than a few in Redmond outside of their Linux group do that also. Well, I suppose, if the ship is holed and the crew are busy bailing out water, there is no need for us to waste more torpedoes on it. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====

* Örn Einar Hansen [01-26-05 13:42]:

I don't think it has anything to do with leaking ships ... but is sorta like "legal industrial espionage". You know, get to know your opponent. :-)

but, in getting to know their opponent, they may become part of the opponent..... -- Patrick Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 http://wahoo.no-ip.org @ http://counter.li.org HOG # US1244711 Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/photos

Þann Miðvikudagur 26 janúar 2005 21:58 skrifaði Patrick Shanahan:

but, in getting to know their opponent, they may become part of the opponent..... Wasn't it some famous "military" guru that said these infamous words:

"If you can't beat them, join them". But then, he probably never listent to Leonid Cohen "First we take manhattan". :-) My 0,2€¢ worth, Örn

On 27/01/05 12:47 AM, Doug McGarrett wrote:

Since SuSE 9.2 Pro is full of problems--as seen on this list-- what are you going to be installing? (How can I get an English language version of an OS that doesn't have these?)

TBH I havnt had any problems with 9.2 I havnt been able to solve within a reasonable amount of time, but then again I'm not exactly new to the world of Unix. As allways if you know what your doing you can make it look easy/

And what are you going to be doing about programs that don't exist in Linux, like AutoCad, or Pro-E, or the EEsof RF software, etc.? Or is this only for office people, who only need a word processor, a spread sheet, an Internet browser, Adobe, and e-mail? (Everybody else will have XP?)

Were a school, we certainly dont use Autocad, and the educational programs we do use we made sure they ran under WINE 18 months ago, including hiring a student developer from our local university to add the necessary code to WINE. Alternatively, if you dont want to hire someone to make program X work, find an alternative that does or use an emulator or application interface. Either way that sort of thing is handled in the planning and development stages, you sit down with lots of other people and go through their requirements, it may be that they do need Windows or a Mac or a Bebox or any number of other operating systems or terminals, if so then thats what you give them. The school's admin office still has to run DOS apps on Win98, it wont run on NT5 or Dosbox so their stuck with 98 for the forseeable future.

Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see Linux win the battle with MS, but the problems are not small, nor are they subtle.

Never said or even inferred they were, infact I think I was pointing out the exact opposite, but the problems are solvable if you put the work in. Regards, Ben

Since SuSE 9.2 Pro is full of problems--as seen on this list-- what are you going to be installing? (How can I get an English language version of an OS that doesn't have these?) And what are you going to be doing about programs that don't exist in Linux, like AutoCad, or Pro-E, or the EEsof RF software, etc.? Or is this only for office people, who only need a word processor, a spread sheet, an Internet browser, Adobe, and e-mail? (Everybody else will have XP?) Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see Linux win the battle with MS, but the problems are not small, nor are they subtle. --doug At 09:40 AM 1/26/2005 +0000, Ben Higginbottom wrote:

On 25/01/05 07:17 PM, Jake Sallee wrote:

...

On Tuesday 25 January 2005 03:05, Ben Higginbottom wrote: <snip>

...

The last I heared was that it was still going ahead but at a slower rate. Belive me for an install base as large as Munich's (14,000 IIRC) a 4 year migration isnt at all slow. IBM is looking at probably a minimum of 5 years to migrate all 200,000 desktops, longer if they port all their software suites. Novell switched to a dual boot system and OOo last summer and will have migrated to NLD fully by the end of this summer, which I thought was amazingly quick.

/snip/

Fergus Wilde wrote:

On Thursday 27 January 2005 00:47, Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

Since SuSE 9.2 Pro is full of problems--as seen on this list-- what are you going to be installing? (How can I get an English language version of an OS that doesn't have these?)

And what are you going to be doing about programs that don't exist in Linux, like AutoCad, or Pro-E, or the EEsof RF software, etc.?

Plenty of CAD stuff for Sun, if not for Linux. You certainly don't need MS. Can't tell you about the other stuff, because I've never heard of it. Pro-E sounds like a bodybuilding supplement.

...

Or is this only for office people, who only need a word processor, a spread sheet, an Internet browser, Adobe, and e-mail? (Everybody else will have XP?)

Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see Linux win the battle with MS, but the problems are not small, nor are they subtle.

--doug

Apart from a few annoyances getting my scanner running on one install, I haven't seen many of these problems ... I know that's a matter of hardware luck to an extent, but I've got three perfectly happy 9.2 installs running fine and doing everything I need. Remember you're talking about people's questions and often minor frustrations with an entire distro, hundreds if not thousands of megabytes of userland programmes on top of an OS.

And it's certainly not fuller of problems than WinXP is it? I was obliged to attempt to install that particular spectacular the other day (100% legal official CD), and the install programme is as dumb as a brick. The disk partitioning tools are complete poo, and you're given almost no control over things. The one thing they make sure 'works' is that you can't get anywhere without their precious codes, and that it will commit suicide if you don't 'activate' it, and that you can't set it up on more than on machine. Without an internet connection this means you actually have to phone them in order to have it continue working. No thanks! I already paid for this stuff and now I have to phone Mummy to be allowed to use it?

Now start comparing like for like in terms of price: you won't get far with productivity on what comes on an XP disc, will you? You want a machine with the kind of software loadout that comes with SuSE in Windows and it would cost me five or ten times the price to set up. Cheers Fergus

First of all I'll hold my hands up and say 9.2 can be a dog to install, it's a chameleon, different problems or none, depending on the hardware, what colour shirt you are wearing, outside air temperature and everything else. Once it's up it's solid. Strange thing also is that none of the reviewers seemed to have hit problems. I had 2 hairy upgrades from 9.1 one on a XP3000+/32-bit, the other on XP3000+/64-bit, but a new install on a P-II/333/64M/2M video laptop went without a hitch. No wonder Fergus thought E-pro was a bodybuilding supplement, the wisdom in the software buying world is to bone up on the ads section of the most glossy mags, buy that software and stick with it -- understandable and wise, but occasionally you should take the blinkers off. There are increasing numbers of professional products being ported to Linux, especially in the electronic CAD field, for normal mechanical CAD systems, I'm sure I've seen stuff, VARICAD and others that can handle the Autocad stuff, but you won't find them on the shelf at PC World, Fry's, Weirdstuff or in the rag-tag of PC mags around the world. Sun and SGI used to be the ace platforms for CAD but at a phemomenal price tag both for hardware and software. Many of the electronic CAD companies that listed all the drawbacks to developing for Linux changed their minds in just a few months. Autocad is different, they have a sworn allegiance to Windows only, they won't soil their rubber gloves on anything as corrosive and filthy as Linux. www.varicad.com says -------------------------- news 2004-11-16 VariCAD for SUSE LINUX 9.2 and Fedora Core 3 learn more ... I've found Linux to be flexible, it's the only platform I've used since I blasted Win95 off my work laptop many years ago and could still work with our near 100% Windows setup and colleagues who recited every day the mantra that bill gates' wee-wee is purer than the fruitjuice he drinks. If I need a new solution, I look for a Linux one, perhaps it's easier for me as I don't know many if any Windows ones. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====

There already is a Pro-E port to linux/intel as proprietary. The website: http://www.tech-edv.co.at/lunix/CADlinks.html has a ton of CAD applications for linux. Allen ---- Address: Allen Wilkinson (phone) (216) 382-7613 1036 Pembrook Road (work) (216) 433-2075 Cleveland Heights, OH 44121 USA (INTERNET) aw(at)apk(dot)net +++++++ "Pluralism is the belief that all people have reasons for their beliefs. We ought to assume, until proven otherwise, that the stranger conducts her business on grounds that seem perfectly reasonable to her, and that she is capable of explaining this to us. We ought to realize that our own reasoning, like everyone else's, is fallible and unfinished." Author Unknown On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Sid Boyce wrote:

Fergus Wilde wrote:

...

On Thursday 27 January 2005 00:47, Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

Since SuSE 9.2 Pro is full of problems--as seen on this list-- what are you going to be installing? (How can I get an English language version of an OS that doesn't have these?)

And what are you going to be doing about programs that don't exist in Linux, like AutoCad, or Pro-E, or the EEsof RF software, etc.?

Plenty of CAD stuff for Sun, if not for Linux. You certainly don't need MS. Can't tell you about the other stuff, because I've never heard of it. Pro-E sounds like a bodybuilding supplement.

...

Or is this only for office people, who only need a word processor, a spread sheet, an Internet browser, Adobe, and e-mail? (Everybody else will have XP?)

Don't get me wrong: I'd like to see Linux win the battle with MS, but the problems are not small, nor are they subtle.

--doug

Apart from a few annoyances getting my scanner running on one install, I haven't seen many of these problems ... I know that's a matter of hardware luck to an extent, but I've got three perfectly happy 9.2 installs running fine and doing everything I need. Remember you're talking about people's questions and often minor frustrations with an entire distro, hundreds if not thousands of megabytes of userland programmes on top of an OS. And it's certainly not fuller of problems than WinXP is it? I was obliged to attempt to install that particular spectacular the other day (100% legal official CD), and the install programme is as dumb as a brick. The disk partitioning tools are complete poo, and you're given almost no control over things. The one thing they make sure 'works' is that you can't get anywhere without their precious codes, and that it will commit suicide if you don't 'activate' it, and that you can't set it up on more than on machine. Without an internet connection this means you actually have to phone them in order to have it continue working. No thanks! I already paid for this stuff and now I have to phone Mummy to be allowed to use it?

Now start comparing like for like in terms of price: you won't get far with productivity on what comes on an XP disc, will you? You want a machine with the kind of software loadout that comes with SuSE in Windows and it would cost me five or ten times the price to set up. Cheers Fergus

First of all I'll hold my hands up and say 9.2 can be a dog to install, it's a chameleon, different problems or none, depending on the hardware, what colour shirt you are wearing, outside air temperature and everything else. Once it's up it's solid. Strange thing also is that none of the reviewers seemed to have hit problems. I had 2 hairy upgrades from 9.1 one on a XP3000+/32-bit, the other on XP3000+/64-bit, but a new install on a P-II/333/64M/2M video laptop went without a hitch. No wonder Fergus thought E-pro was a bodybuilding supplement, the wisdom in the software buying world is to bone up on the ads section of the most glossy mags, buy that software and stick with it -- understandable and wise, but occasionally you should take the blinkers off. There are increasing numbers of professional products being ported to Linux, especially in the electronic CAD field, for normal mechanical CAD systems, I'm sure I've seen stuff, VARICAD and others that can handle the Autocad stuff, but you won't find them on the shelf at PC World, Fry's, Weirdstuff or in the rag-tag of PC mags around the world. Sun and SGI used to be the ace platforms for CAD but at a phemomenal price tag both for hardware and software. Many of the electronic CAD companies that listed all the drawbacks to developing for Linux changed their minds in just a few months. Autocad is different, they have a sworn allegiance to Windows only, they won't soil their rubber gloves on anything as corrosive and filthy as Linux.

www.varicad.com says -------------------------- news 2004-11-16 VariCAD for SUSE LINUX 9.2 and Fedora Core 3 learn more ...

I've found Linux to be flexible, it's the only platform I've used since I blasted Win95 off my work laptop many years ago and could still work with our near 100% Windows setup and colleagues who recited every day the mantra that bill gates' wee-wee is purer than the fruitjuice he drinks. If I need a new solution, I look for a Linux one, perhaps it's easier for me as I don't know many if any Windows ones. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce .... Hamradio G3VBV and Keen Flyer =====ALMOST ALL LINUX USED HERE, Solaris 10 SPARC is just for play=====

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com