Re: [SLE] Fundamental differences
Advocacy. If someone asks "why, specifically, is Linux better designed than Windows?" I want the answers to hand. On the desktop, NT is pretty stable. Everyone's got horror stories, but for the most part it'll run for days or weeks just doing Word, Excel and IE. W2K is supposed to be better, and after a few patches - sorry, service packs - it will be. So stability is a drum the Linux community will not be able to beat much longer. Desktop usability is largely subjective and people will argue until blue in the face about which is better. Same with extend and embrace over openness. Windows is now a network enabled OS. The implementation might be a kludge, but the GUI hides that to most desktop users. No clear Linux advantage here. The "it runs on older hardware" is wearing thin too, at least on the desktop. Have you tried KDE or GNOME on a 486? We have the choice, which is a good thing, but in practise the low end window managers don't realistically compete with Windows. But no one can argue that the modularised and network transparent design of X is worse than the kernel level graphics of Windows and the horrific Terminal Server kludge, so that's one thing we can push. The ability to connect and disconnect both local and remote disks to your directory tree at will is another thing: no doubt that that's better than tying devices to C:, D:, etc I was pondering the question, and my responses dried up there. Hence the question.
Where is this question leading ?
What are the fundamental differences between Linux and Windows these days? I can think of graphics, which is totally different, and disks/mount points which are handled differently. With Windows becoming network-ed (albeit badly), what genuine differences does that leave for the Linux community to exploit?
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Hi On Fri, 07 Jul 2000, you wrote:
Advocacy. If someone asks "why, specifically, is Linux better designed than Windows?" I want the answers to hand.
On the desktop, NT is pretty stable. Everyone's got horror stories, but for the most part it'll run for days or weeks just doing Word, Excel and IE. W2K is supposed to be better, and after a few patches - sorry, service packs - it will be. So stability is a drum the Linux community will not be able to beat much longer.
Not at all. Most folks don't run NT or W2k. Win98 is still the dominant desktop for home users. 98 isn't that stable. You are right about NT being more stable, as long as you don't try to do too much with it at once. My job force me to switch to NT. This is on a P133 with 32meg. It's slow, and a genuine pain. I've been told that we will get new computers, but when, I have no idea. Until then, I do very regular backups.
Desktop usability is largely subjective and people will argue until blue in the face about which is better. Same with extend and embrace over openness. Windows is now a network enabled OS. The implementation might be a kludge, but the GUI hides that to most desktop users. No clear Linux advantage here.
What you say is true. But I am so darn tired of that putrid Windows background color, and the startup music. We are not supposed to change this on the class lab computers. So when 25 kids log in, the sound is horrid, and i usually leave the room.. ;-))
The "it runs on older hardware" is wearing thin too, at least on the desktop. Have you tried KDE or GNOME on a 486? We have the choice, which is a good thing, but in practise the low end window managers don't realistically compete with Windows.
While you say that trying to run KDE or Gnome on a 486 is bad, there are alternatives. Some of the other Window managers run just fine. Icewm, Sawmill, and Windowmaker come to mind. This is not true with NT or W2k. What you see is what you get. You don't have a choice.
But no one can argue that the modularised and network transparent design of X is worse than the kernel level graphics of Windows and the horrific Terminal Server kludge, so that's one thing we can push. The ability to connect and disconnect both local and remote disks to your directory tree at will is another thing: no doubt that that's better than tying devices to C:, D:, etc
I was pondering the question, and my responses dried up there. Hence the question.
Where is this question leading ?
I have no idea. But I'd much rather work with linux that Windows anything. I like the freedom of choice. I guess that's why I started using it. Mike -- -------------------------------------------------------- for a great linux portal try http://www.freezer-burn.org home: http://www.an-netz.de/home/bcomber -------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Mike,
Not at all. Most folks don't run NT or W2k. Win98 is still the dominant desktop for home users. 98 isn't that stable. You are right about NT being more stable, as long as you don't try to do too much with it at once. My job force me to
Well, that will change next year - the next version of Windows for Home Users beyond Windows ME, eh I can't remember the name anymore, will be based on the NT/2k kernel.
What you say is true. But I am so darn tired of that putrid Windows background color, and the startup music. We are not supposed to change this on the class lab computers. So when 25 kids log in, the sound is horrid, and i usually leave the room.. ;-))
I would leave too, although even KDE's nice startup music would be annoying if 25 instances were going at the same time. ;-). Best thing to do is "accidentally" unplug the speakers to all the PCs.
The "it runs on older hardware" is wearing thin too, at least on the desktop. Have you tried KDE or GNOME on a 486? We have the choice, which is a good thing, but in practise the low end window managers don't realistically compete with Windows.
While you say that trying to run KDE or Gnome on a 486 is bad, there are alternatives. Some of the other Window managers run just fine. Icewm, Sawmill, and Windowmaker come to mind. This is not true with NT or W2k. What you see is what you get. You don't have a choice.
As the original poster mentions though, they aren't really realistic replacements. KDE and GNOME are much more on par with Windows (not saying it would do well on a 486 either). For that kind of usage, something like the latest rendition of GeoWorks (now under a new name) is a better choice.
But no one can argue that the modularised and network transparent design of X is worse than the kernel level graphics of Windows and the horrific Terminal Server kludge, so that's one thing we can push. The ability to connect and disconnect both local and remote disks to your directory tree at will is another thing: no doubt that that's better than tying devices to C:, D:, etc
I was pondering the question, and my responses dried up there. Hence the question.
Where is this question leading ?
I have no idea. But I'd much rather work with linux that Windows anything. I like the freedom of choice. I guess that's why I started using it.
I might as well add a few of my own reasons for an attempted switch: 1.) Stability - I use Windows 98, and it just doesn't cut the bill. 2.) Speed - Linux is faster, better at preemptive multitasking, and I have the choice to recompile stuff for the 686/PII architecture 3.) Price - twenty nine bucks for the latest copy of SuSE sure beats $89 for the latest Windows 9x or $189 for the latest NT/Windows Professional version. 4.) Quality freeware (RMS will appreciate the "free" rather than open source terms here <g>) - Where else can you get the office suite, D.E., PIM, graphics software, web server, etc. Especially assembled on CD-ROM or DVD for just $29? Just my $0.02, which by the way are not adjusted for inflation, and are non-refundable... -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
Mike
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Tim, On Sat, 08 Jul 2000, you wrote:
Mike,
Not at all. Most folks don't run NT or W2k. Win98 is still the dominant desktop for home users. 98 isn't that stable. You are right about NT being more stable, as long as you don't try to do too much with it at once. My job force me to
Well, that will change next year - the next version of Windows for Home Users beyond Windows ME, eh I can't remember the name anymore, will be based on the NT/2k kernel.
True enough if folks really want it. And if M$ actually makes the date they say they will.. But there are a lot of legacy programs that either don't run, or run poorly on NT that the upgrade seems unlikely. We have several site licensed programs for Win?? that took weeks to get running on NT. I really can't see having to re-purchase all of these again.
What you say is true. But I am so darn tired of that putrid Windows background color, and the startup music. We are not supposed to change this on the class lab computers. So when 25 kids log in, the sound is horrid, and i usually leave the room.. ;-))
I would leave too, although even KDE's nice startup music would be annoying if 25 instances were going at the same time. ;-). Best thing to do is "accidentally" unplug the speakers to all the PCs.
Tried that. didn't work. Too many complaints..But we are going to do some work on the systems this summer, and that I one of the things I'm definitely going to turn off!!
The "it runs on older hardware" is wearing thin too, at least on the desktop. Have you tried KDE or GNOME on a 486? We have the choice, which is a good thing, but in practise the low end window managers don't realistically compete with Windows.
While you say that trying to run KDE or Gnome on a 486 is bad, there are alternatives. Some of the other Window managers run just fine. Icewm, Sawmill, and Windowmaker come to mind. This is not true with NT or W2k. What you see is what you get. You don't have a choice.
As the original poster mentions though, they aren't really realistic replacements. KDE and GNOME are much more on par with Windows (not saying it would do well on a 486 either). For that kind of usage, something like the latest rendition of GeoWorks (now under a new name) is a better choice.
Hmmm. I'll have to look for it. I'm always good for something new to try.
But no one can argue that the modularised and network transparent design of X is worse than the kernel level graphics of Windows and the horrific Terminal Server kludge, so that's one thing we can push. The ability to connect and disconnect both local and remote disks to your directory tree at will is another thing: no doubt that that's better than tying devices to C:, D:, etc
I was pondering the question, and my responses dried up there. Hence the question.
Where is this question leading ?
I have no idea. But I'd much rather work with linux that Windows anything. I like the freedom of choice. I guess that's why I started using it.
I might as well add a few of my own reasons for an attempted switch:
1.) Stability - I use Windows 98, and it just doesn't cut the bill.
I have 98 on my wife's machine. every so often, it simply looses it connection to my network. Now after the third install, it seems to be working most of the time. But one of these days, I'll put linux on it, and not have to worry.. And there is always the virus protection that linux offers..
2.) Speed - Linux is faster, better at preemptive multitasking, and I have the > choice to recompile stuff for the 686/PII architecture
Definitely. I sometimes get so many different things going I forget some of them. ;-) And then linux yells at me for not closing them before a shutdown.
3.) Price - twenty nine bucks for the latest copy of SuSE sure beats $89 for the latest Windows 9x or $189 for the latest NT/Windows Professional version
That that $89 is for the upgrade. Not the full blown version. ..
4.) Quality freeware (RMS will appreciate the "free" rather than open source terms here <g>) - Where else can you get the office suite, D.E., PIM, graphics software, web server, etc. Especially assembled on CD-ROM or DVD for just $29?
Nowhere that I know of.. It just makes sense to me to use linux. Mike -- -------------------------------------------------------- for a great linux portal try http://www.freezer-burn.org home: http://www.an-netz.de/home/bcomber -------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
On Fri, 07 Jul 2000, Derek Fountain wrote:
Have you tried KDE or GNOME on a 486?
~ Windows 3.1 on an AMD K6/2 with 128 mb RAM runs Excel, Word, Netscape "hot rod" ! Ha {;-> -- ____________ sent on Linux ____________ This Email is 100% Virus Free! How do I know? ~ Because no Microsoft products were used to generate it! -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
tabanna wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2000, Derek Fountain wrote:
Have you tried KDE or GNOME on a 486?
~ Windows 3.1 on an AMD K6/2 with 128 mb RAM runs Excel, Word, Netscape "hot rod" !
Yep. But that's the point: Set aside that 3.1 doesn't make use of that amount of memory, you're stuck with Word 6 / Excel 5, which is good to me, since this is one point that makes me angry: Almost everybody on this world will flood you with incompatible office 97 / 2000 documents. There are converters (word) but these don't work on complex documents. I'd appreciate a document standard that will live a bit longer and is *an open* standard supported by all software manufacturers... With the PC's we got in 1997, there was no driver suppot for win 3.11 anymore, video config was hell. We were forced to upgrade to NT4 in the end. Juergen
Ha {;-> --
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At 10:16 PM 7/7/2000 +0200, juergen.braukmann@ruhr-west.de wrote:
tabanna wrote:
On Fri, 07 Jul 2000, Derek Fountain wrote:
Have you tried KDE or GNOME on a 486?
~ Windows 3.1 on an AMD K6/2 with 128 mb RAM runs Excel, Word, Netscape "hot rod" !
Yep. But that's the point: Set aside that 3.1 doesn't make use of that amount of memory, you're stuck with Word 6 / Excel 5, which is good to me, since this is one point that makes me angry: Almost everybody on this world will flood you with incompatible office 97 / 2000 documents. There are converters (word) but these don't work on complex documents.
But they wont do it , they want to keep you on the bloody upgrade treadmill like the hapster that will run till its dead. At least with the open source there is the code so any one can look at it and see how its done.
I'd appreciate a document standard that will live a bit longer and is *an open* standard supported by all software manufacturers...
With the PC's we got in 1997, there was no driver suppot for win 3.11 anymore, video config was hell. We were forced to upgrade to NT4 in the end.
Juergen
Ha {;-> --
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Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
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Samy Elashmawy said :
they want to keep you on the bloody upgrade treadmill
~ from 1983 until 2000 my daily_used Spreadsheet was Multiplan vers 1.0 [ I never upgraded ] Small & fast . . . a champion Spreadsheet_Lite best wishes Richard Aegina, Greece ________________ ____________ sent on Linux ____________ This Email is 100% Virus Free! How do I know? ~ Because no Microsoft products were used to generate it! -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Advocacy. If someone asks "why, specifically, is Linux better designed than Windows?" I want the answers to hand.
First, what market are you talking about, the desktop or server market. They are differant and not one in the same. It is like "which is better a tractor or a car". Well now that depends if you are talking about driving an hour to work or plowing a field.
On the desktop, NT is pretty stable. Everyone's got horror stories, but for the most part it'll run for days or weeks just doing Word, Excel and IE. W2K is supposed to be better, and after a few patches - sorry, service packs - it will be. So stability is a drum the Linux community will not be able to beat much longer.
1) Not everyone has $5000 bucks to shell out for a "desktop" operating system. No "normal consumer" is going to pay $2000+ bucks to get NT over 98. Sure in the server market, maybe. But not (in your words) "On the desktop". Everyday forks (ie. people that don't work in the computer industry) can't afford to be spending that type of money so they can have a 60 uptime on Word97. They will either have to go with Windows98 (more then or likely) or with another OS like Linux or BeOS (less likely).
Desktop usability is largely subjective and people will argue until blue in the face about which is better. Same with extend and embrace over openness. Windows is now a network enabled OS. The implementation might be a kludge, but the GUI hides that to most desktop users. No clear Linux advantage here.
"desktop usability" have you checked out KDE, Gnome or Enlightenment recently? The Linux "GUI Desktop" can be tweaked out to look just like your kludge windows GUI, but with cleaner code and more stability.
The "it runs on older hardware" is wearing thin too, at least on the desktop. Have you tried KDE or GNOME on a 486?
No. Have your tried building a linux router out of a 386? Have you tried building a W2K router out of a 386? Hrm, pay $500 of this cool looking Web Ramp ISDN router or spend $10 at a flea market and build a just as fast router from Linux?
We have the choice, which is a good thing, but in practise the low end window managers don't realistically compete with Windows.
Have you checked out IceWM lately? I used it all the time on a 486 and it was a ton faster then Windows95 and Windows98 won't even install on it.
But no one can argue that the modularised and network transparent design of X is worse than the kernel level graphics of Windows and the horrific Terminal Server kludge, so that's one thing we can push. The ability to connect and disconnect both local and remote disks to your directory tree at will is another thing: no doubt that that's better than tying devices to C:, D:, etc
I have no idea what you talking about here. But for the record there is NFS that can mount remote drives, and oh yea there is a bunch of options you can tweak out so you don't get really slow access to remote media.
I was pondering the question, and my responses dried up there. Hence the question.
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic. Jack
Where is this question leading ?
What are the fundamental differences between Linux and Windows these days? I can think of graphics, which is totally different, and disks/mount points which are handled differently. With Windows becoming network-ed (albeit badly), what genuine differences does that leave for the Linux community to exploit?
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First, what market are you talking about, the desktop or server market. They are differant and not one in the same. It is like "which is better a tractor or a car". Well now that depends if you are talking about driving an hour to work or plowing a field.
I generally like to think Linux is like the "Duck." The Duck is an amphibious vehicle that was used by the US Military, and is now used in tourist traps around the country. The point is the Duck goes on water and land, and keeps going and going and going. Ideally Linux can be the same in that it does both jobs well.
On the desktop, NT is pretty stable. Everyone's got horror stories, but for the most part it'll run for days or weeks just doing Word, Excel and IE. W2K is supposed to be better, and after a few patches - sorry, service packs - it will be. So stability is a drum the Linux community will not be able to beat much longer.
1) Not everyone has $5000 bucks to shell out for a "desktop" operating system. No "normal consumer" is going to pay $2000+ bucks to get NT over 98. Sure in the server market, maybe. But not (in your words) "On the desktop". Everyday forks (ie. people that don't work in the computer industry) can't afford to be spending that type of money so they can have a 60 uptime on Word97. They will either have to go with Windows98 (more then or likely) or with another OS like Linux or BeOS (less likely).
$2,000? W2K costs ~$350 outright or ~$200 for an upgrade. As to why the choose W9x over Linux or BeOS, I think that would change if WINE would get a bit better (anyone who already thinks it works great - please let me know how).
Desktop usability is largely subjective and people will argue until blue in the face about which is better. Same with extend and embrace over openness. Windows is now a network enabled OS. The implementation might be a kludge, but the GUI hides that to most desktop users. No clear Linux advantage here.
"desktop usability" have you checked out KDE, Gnome or Enlightenment recently? The Linux "GUI Desktop" can be tweaked out to look just like your kludge windows GUI, but with cleaner code and more stability.
Very true. But Windows is still easier (better usability). Windows is more intuitive, hey Windows ME (the new 9x rendition) will even sense when you are online and not using your connection so that it can automagically download security updates!
The "it runs on older hardware" is wearing thin too, at least on the desktop. Have you tried KDE or GNOME on a 486?
No. Have your tried building a linux router out of a 386? Have you tried building a W2K router out of a 386? Hrm, pay $500 of this cool looking Web Ramp ISDN router or spend $10 at a flea market and build a just as fast router from Linux?
Good point. Flea markets have good deals - I got a $350 Mac PowerBook for $30!
We have the choice, which is a good thing, but in practice the low end window managers don't realistically compete with Windows.
Have you checked out IceWM lately? I used it all the time on a 486 and it was a ton faster then Windows95 and Windows98 won't even install on it.
It isn't as intuitive though.
But no one can argue that the modularised and network transparent design of X is worse than the kernel level graphics of Windows and the horrific Terminal Server kludge, so that's one thing we can push. The ability to connect and disconnect both local and remote disks to your directory tree at will is another thing: no doubt that that's better than tying devices to C:, D:, etc
I have no idea what you talking about here. But for the record there is NFS that can mount remote drives, and oh yea there is a bunch of options you can tweak out so you don't get really slow access to remote media.
I think Derek was saying that he likes the fact Linux doesn't use drive letters.
I was pondering the question, and my responses dried up there. Hence the question.
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Derek a troll? Nahhhh, to me it sounded like he had some good points, and also really liked Linux. It would be foolish to say Windows isn't the easiest, most intuitive OS on the planet - Linux is getting there - but it isn't yet. It took me hours to get my sound card and network working in Linux. How long in Windows? Maybe 15-30 minutes. Try Windows for awhile, you'll see what I mean.
Jack
Where is this question leading ?
What are the fundamental differences between Linux and Windows these days? I can think of graphics, which is totally different, and disks/mount points which are handled differently. With Windows becoming network-ed (albeit badly), what genuine differences does that leave for the Linux community to exploit?
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On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
Derek a troll? Nahhhh, to me it sounded like he had some good points, and also really liked Linux. It would be foolish to say Windows isn't the easiest, most intuitive OS on the planet - Linux is getting there - but it isn't yet. It took me hours to get my sound card and network working in Linux. How long in Windows? Maybe 15-30 minutes. Try Windows for awhile, you'll see what I mean.
It took you that long your first time, or now, with, say 6.4? I gotta hand it to SuSE because with an Intel NIC and a standard old SB AWE32 sound card I think anybody could have gotten sound and networking going in the same amount of time as it would take on Windows. It is such a piece of cake now. Greg -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Greg Thomas wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
Derek a troll? Nahhhh, to me it sounded like he had some good points, and also really liked Linux. It would be foolish to say Windows isn't the easiest, most intuitive OS on the planet - Linux is getting there - but it isn't yet. It took me hours to get my sound card and network working in Linux. How long in Windows? Maybe 15-30 minutes. Try Windows for awhile, you'll see what I mean.
It took you that long your first time, or now, with, say 6.4? I gotta hand it to SuSE because with an Intel NIC and a standard old SB AWE32 sound card I think anybody could have gotten sound and networking going in the same amount of time as it would take on Windows. It is such a piece of cake now.
All this depends. I spend about 4 hours yesterday to get a combination of an ancient Elsa Winner 100VL S3 video card running with an old monitor I had lost the data sheet from. Sax failed, XF86Setup wasn't any help either. I had the combination working until two years ago when I gave that machine away. Finally, I used xf86config that generated a gazillion of modelines, no success. I hand edited (inspired randomly hacked) the xf86config generated XF86Config file and got those interlaced modes working. Other problems with an "unplug and throw away" card: I could set IO and IRQ in isapnp.conf, but was lost for the "type" or "brand". For laughters, I started yast2, it recognised and configured that card faster than you coud do it it windows. Yast2 doesn't recognize the crystal 4532 (or so) soundcard, but OSS will. I lost fights against Win98 installing a SCSI card (both for an initio and tekram 395). Linux found and configured these cards usually before I was aware they were plugged to the system <grin>. Once I couldn't get a WD8013 NIC working on Win95 (worked well with 3.11). I think this list of good and bad examples goes on and on, if everybody add his / hers experiances. In the long run, I have more trust and confidence in Linux, secretly I claim Linux hardware support is better (in terms of trust). Some hardware or combination of hardware will always fail, wether you're on win or Linux and that won't change in the future. Our advantages are lists like this were you can post these questions and usually get the help you need or a reasonable explanation why not (yet). Juergen -- =========================================== __ _ Juergen Braukmann juergen.braukmann@gmx.de| -o)/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Tel: 0201-743648 dk4jb@db0qs.#nrw.deu.eu | /\\ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / ===========================================_\_v __/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Greg,
It took you that long your first time, or now, with, say 6.4? I gotta
That was 6.4 about a month ago and two weeks ago. I got my old SB16 running in RedHat 5.1 fast (it'd probably be the same in SuSE), but this AU8820/Turtle Beach Montego has been a pain. I finally found a driver at http://linux.aureal.com this January, and got it working in SuSE 6.1. However, when I upgraded to 6.4 and reformatted to reiserfs, it took me several hours to get rid of YaST2's handy work and get that driver working again. The worst part is the SuSE HDB has the AU8820 chipset listed, and YaST2 gets the name right (Turtle Beach Montego A3D), but it won't work once Linux boots. -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
hand it to SuSE because with an Intel NIC and a standard old SB AWE32 sound card I think anybody could have gotten sound and networking going in the same amount of time as it would take on Windows. It is such a piece of cake now.
Greg
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I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Jack, I'm not a troll. I've been using Linux for 7 years and I have a 1st class degree in Comp Sci. I think I know what I'm talking about, and I also know when I *don't* know stuff, which is more than can be said for a lot of people. What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me. If you think this is also a troll, kindly keep your mouth shut and let others make constructive comments. -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
There have been several NAT packages available for Windows for several years. Before I totally dumped Windows on my main system, I ran NAT32 on Windows and IP Masq on Linux, so that my daughter could access the Internet from her system. Historically, M$ has added features to Windows that had been offered as add ons by other vendors. Remember that Windows3.1 did not include IP networking, but you could get commercial versions of Winsock. We must remember to keep Linux (and Unixes) better than Windows in all areas. Derek Fountain wrote:
What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me.
--
Jerry Feldman
Hi everyone, followed this thread for a while. For me the fundamental differences I have seen are: Linux (all versions) based on sharing, M$ Windoze (all versions) based on greed. Just seems this way to me. On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Derek Fountain wrote:
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Jack,
I'm not a troll. I've been using Linux for 7 years and I have a 1st class degree in Comp Sci. I think I know what I'm talking about, and I also know when I *don't* know stuff, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.
What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me.
If you think this is also a troll, kindly keep your mouth shut and let others make constructive comments.
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
-- ============================ Phil Stebbins Keenstreet Communications Box 6073 South Lismore N.S.W. 2480 Australia phil@keenstreet.com http://www.keenstreet.com ============================ -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Not exactly greed, IMO. Tell me Phil, what do you do for a living? Now, consider that somewhere along the line someone is paying you to do what you do. Are you being greedy for wanting to be paid? If you aren't, how does this apply to Microsoft (or Apple, Oracle, Sun, or even SuSE - they offer the proprietary Applixware, among other things)? Greed would be charging $1,000 for Windows 98. just my two cents... -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
-----Original Message----- From: Phil Stebbins [mailto:phil@keenstreet.com.au] Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 8:04 AM To: Derek Fountain; SuSE English Subject: Re: [SLE] Fundamental differences
Hi everyone,
followed this thread for a while.
For me the fundamental differences I have seen are: Linux (all versions) based on sharing, M$ Windoze (all versions) based on greed.
Just seems this way to me.
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Jack,
I'm not a troll. I've been using Linux for 7 years and I have a 1st class degree in Comp Sci. I think I know what I'm talking about, and I also know when I *don't* know stuff, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.
What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me.
If you think this is also a troll, kindly keep your mouth shut and let others make constructive comments.
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq -- ============================ Phil Stebbins Keenstreet Communications Box 6073 South Lismore N.S.W. 2480 Australia
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Derek Fountain wrote: phil@keenstreet.com http://www.keenstreet.com ============================
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At 09:33 AM 7/10/2000 +0100, Derek Fountain wrote:
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Jack,
I'm not a troll. I've been using Linux for 7 years and I have a 1st class degree in Comp Sci. I think I know what I'm talking about, and I also know when I *don't* know stuff, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.
What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with
NO NO NO , its another way to rob you of another 89.99 upgrading your first edetion to second edition just for a few more tweaks on somthing you allready own and paid for.
the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me.
If you think this is also a troll, kindly keep your mouth shut and let others make constructive comments.
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
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Samy, The Windows 98 to Windows 98 SE upgrade is just 20 bucks at windowsupdate.microsoft.com . Even if Microsoft was the evil empire (I don't think it is), they wouldn't charge you another $89. Although I remember when DOS 6.22 came out and the 6.2 to 6.22 upgrade was just $9. -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
-----Original Message----- From: Samy Elashmawy [mailto:samelash@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 11:01 AM To: Derek Fountain; SuSE English Subject: Re: [SLE] Fundamental differences
At 09:33 AM 7/10/2000 +0100, Derek Fountain wrote:
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Jack,
I'm not a troll. I've been using Linux for 7 years and I have a 1st class degree in Comp Sci. I think I know what I'm talking about, and I also know when I *don't* know stuff, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.
What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with
NO NO NO , its another way to rob you of another 89.99 upgrading your first edetion to second edition just for a few more tweaks on somthing you allready own and paid for.
the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me.
If you think this is also a troll, kindly keep your mouth shut and let others make constructive comments.
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
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At 04:51 PM 7/10/2000 -0500, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
Samy, The Windows 98 to Windows 98 SE upgrade is just 20 bucks at windowsupdate.microsoft.com . Even if Microsoft was the evil empire (I don't think it is), they wouldn't charge you another $89. Although I remember when DOS 6.22 came out and the 6.2 to 6.22 upgrade was just $9.
there was no yupgrade path from win95 to win95 Second edition , you were froced to go out and buy a new upgrade at 89.00 . After all the fus , M$ made some changes , I will check out the upgrade for win 098 to win98 SE. Thanks Samy
-Tim
----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
-----Original Message----- From: Samy Elashmawy [mailto:samelash@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 11:01 AM To: Derek Fountain; SuSE English Subject: Re: [SLE] Fundamental differences
At 09:33 AM 7/10/2000 +0100, Derek Fountain wrote:
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Jack,
I'm not a troll. I've been using Linux for 7 years and I have a 1st class degree in Comp Sci. I think I know what I'm talking about, and I also know when I *don't* know stuff, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.
What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with
NO NO NO , its another way to rob you of another 89.99 upgrading your first edetion to second edition just for a few more tweaks on somthing you allready own and paid for.
the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me.
If you think this is also a troll, kindly keep your mouth shut and let others make constructive comments.
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
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Samy,
there was no yupgrade path from win95 to win95 Second edition , you were
Oh, you meant Win95 Gold (August 1995) to Win95 OSR2 (1996). Actually that was more than any 89.95, you couldn't buy it without purchasing a new system (well you could if your OEM was nice enough, but it would cost you $120-180).
froced to go out and buy a new upgrade at 89.00 . After all the fus , M$ made some changes , I will check out the upgrade for win 098 to win98 SE.
Well, really Windows 95 and 98 are very different. Win 98 has all of the great stuff OSR 2 had, plus smart registry backups, maintenance wizard, system file checker, Windows Update (WOW!), and various bug fixes. Win 98 SE also had many upgrades including IE 5.01 ($5 on CD or free download), Internet Connection Sharing (ICS - comparable product price $29-39), and many bug fixes (which, BTW, Microsoft offered as a free CD if you didn't want ICS). -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
Thanks
Samy
-Tim
----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
-----Original Message----- From: Samy Elashmawy [mailto:samelash@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 11:01 AM To: Derek Fountain; SuSE English Subject: Re: [SLE] Fundamental differences
At 09:33 AM 7/10/2000 +0100, Derek Fountain wrote:
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Jack,
I'm not a troll. I've been using Linux for 7 years and I have a 1st class degree in Comp Sci. I think I know what I'm talking about, and I also know when I *don't* know stuff, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.
What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with
NO NO NO , its another way to rob you of another 89.99 upgrading your first edetion to second edition just for a few more tweaks on somthing you allready own and paid for.
the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me.
If you think this is also a troll, kindly keep your mouth shut and let others make constructive comments.
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
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there was no yupgrade path from win95 to win95 Second edition , you were Oh, you meant Win95 Gold (August 1995) to Win95 OSR2 (1996). Actually
that was
more than any 89.95, you couldn't buy it without purchasing a new system (well you could if your OEM was nice enough, but it would cost you $120-180).
froced to go out and buy a new upgrade at 89.00 . After all the fus , M$ made some changes , I will check out the upgrade for win 098 to win98 SE.
Yep it was the win 95 upgrade poly that forced you to buy another copy of windows if you wanted any of the enhancements. I ended up waiting till win98 came out as by then I realy needed the fat32 support. That cost me 89.00 just cause I needed FAT32 suport. So yes I am still pissed off about it. They were not playing fair with there end users , in that they were offering it to OEM / computer makers and not to end users not offering them a fair upgrade path like they did with win98 SE (as you kindly pionted out) That and the preformance of linux/samba is realy what pushed it over the edge and got me to give linux a try. Started with suse linux and we are currenly moving over to linux and phasing out windows. In otherwords all new boxes get linux , while thetwo current windows(dual boot) support our windows needs for the two windows apps that we havent gotton onto linux. I feel so strongly that I will not be upgrading to win2000/win me and would rather hoold at win98 and move to linux app byt app , and putting it on new machines as they come in.
Well, really Windows 95 and 98 are very different. Win 98 has all of the great stuff OSR 2 had, plus smart registry backups, maintenance wizard, system file checker, Windows Update (WOW!), and various bug fixes. Win 98 SE also had many upgrades including IE 5.01 ($5 on CD or free download), Internet Connection Sharing (ICS - comparable product price $29-39), and many bug fixes (which, BTW, Microsoft offered as a free CD if you didn't want ICS).
Yep found the 20.00 upgrade on M$.com , but you wont find it made avialable at compusa otr any retial outlet.
-Tim
----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
Thanks
Samy
-Tim
----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
-----Original Message----- From: Samy Elashmawy [mailto:samelash@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 11:01 AM To: Derek Fountain; SuSE English Subject: Re: [SLE] Fundamental differences
At 09:33 AM 7/10/2000 +0100, Derek Fountain wrote:
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Jack,
I'm not a troll. I've been using Linux for 7 years and I have a 1st class degree in Comp Sci. I think I know what I'm talking about, and I also know when I *don't* know stuff, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.
What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with
NO NO NO , its another way to rob you of another 89.99 upgrading your first edetion to second edition just for a few more tweaks on somthing you allready own and paid for.
the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me.
If you think this is also a troll, kindly keep your mouth shut and let others make constructive comments.
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com
Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
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Hi Samy
Yep it was the win 95 upgrade poly that forced you to buy another copy of windows if you wanted any of the enhancements. I ended up waiting till win98 came out as by then I realy needed the fat32 support. That cost me 89.00 just cause I needed FAT32 suport. So yes I am still pissed off about it.
True. That was frustrating. However it wasn't, IMO, and ingenious ploy to get you to buy another copy. Why do I say this? Simply put, if the OEM's followed the licensing agreement packaged with OSR2, they were not allowed to sell it separate from a new PC. So to me, it looks like MS just released it to keep the OEMs who wanted USB and big hard disks on their PCs happy.
That and the preformance of linux/samba is realy what pushed it over the edge and got me to give linux a try. Started with suse linux and we are currenly moving over to linux and phasing out windows. In otherwords all new boxes get linux , while thetwo current windows(dual boot) support our windows needs for the two windows apps that we havent gotton onto linux. I feel so strongly that I will not be upgrading to win2000/win me and would rather hoold at win98 and move to linux app byt app , and putting it on new machines as they come in.
I'm trying to do the same. I have a dual-boot PC, and I'm trying to trade so that rather than booting into Windows on a typical day, I will instead boot to Linux. I only need one more app to do this - a e-mail client with most of the features of Outlook. Mahogany looks good, I just need to try it a bit.
Yep found the 20.00 upgrade on M$.com , but you wont find it made avialable at compusa otr any retial outlet.
True, and that is a bad thing. The aforementioned MS-DOS 6.22 upgrade was everywhere. Dunno why they didn't do the same here, but at least it is better than OSR2... I must also give them credit for offering a CD with the urgent upgrades absolutely free (including free S&H) - this is great, because on a low-bandwidth connect you can't be downloading all day (thus why I buy SuSE Linux rather than download it). -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
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At 11:20 PM 7/11/2000 -0500, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
Hi Samy
Yep it was the win 95 upgrade poly that forced you to buy another copy of windows if you wanted any of the enhancements. I ended up waiting till win98 came out as by then I realy needed the fat32 support. That cost me 89.00 just cause I needed FAT32 suport. So yes I am still pissed off about it.
True. That was frustrating. However it wasn't, IMO, and ingenious ploy to get you to buy another copy. Why do I say this? Simply put, if the OEM's followed the licensing agreement packaged with OSR2, they were not allowed to sell it separate from a new PC. So to me, it looks like MS just released it to keep the OEMs who wanted USB and big hard disks on their PCs happy.
But it still left users out in the cold ! Matter of fact , if it wasent for that , I would have never looked into linux. Worl works in myterios ways , doesnt it. Not every one knew to go to en oem , and there willingness to dole out a disk varried. Some would do it if you baought a new drive or motherboard. I thonk it was a bad move regardless of there reasoning.
That and the preformance of linux/samba is realy what pushed it over the edge and got me to give linux a try. Started with suse linux and we are currenly moving over to linux and phasing out windows. In otherwords all new boxes get linux , while thetwo current windows(dual boot) support our windows needs for the two windows apps that we havent gotton onto linux. I feel so strongly that I will not be upgrading to win2000/win me and would rather hoold at win98 and move to linux app byt app , and putting it on new machines as they come in.
I'm trying to do the same. I have a dual-boot PC, and I'm trying to
that rather than booting into Windows on a typical day, I will instead boot to Linux. I only need one more app to do this - a e-mail client with most of the features of Outlook. Mahogany looks good, I just need to try it a bit.
Yep found the 20.00 upgrade on M$.com , but you wont find it made avialable at compusa otr any retial outlet.
True, and that is a bad thing. The aforementioned MS-DOS 6.22 upgrade was everywhere. Dunno why they didn't do the same here, but at least it is better than OSR2... I must also give them credit for offering a CD with the urgent upgrades absolutely free (including free S&H) - this is great, because on a low-bandwidth connect you can't be downloading all day (thus why I buy SuSE Linux rather
trade so than
download it).
-Tim
----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
-- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Hello Timothy, I want to know price for WinME ? and for that demo/ his product, what a ?? In this world, and in Islam religius it's called "Riba", and who has to much on it will go to "real" hell..! I HATEEEEEE...$$MIC$$, I wonder who has buy his product and spend alot of money of it, (Even I use It, But I use "Free" Version) Get a free Linux, Real Linux, no "hell" Tuesday, July 11, 2000, 4:51:45 AM, you wrote: TRB> Samy, TRB> The Windows 98 to Windows 98 SE upgrade is just 20 bucks at TRB> windowsupdate.microsoft.com . Even if Microsoft was the evil empire (I don't think TRB> it is), they wouldn't charge you another $89. Although I remember when DOS 6.22 TRB> came out and the 6.2 to 6.22 upgrade was just $9. -- Best regards, Syeh mailto:A3@telkom.net -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Syeh, I'm not familiar with Islam, but are you saying you'll go to Islam's idea of hell if you use Windows? Gosh, I wouldn't use Windows either if I felt that strongly about it (Christians have a different theory on how you end up in Hell). Anyway, moving onward, what "free version" do you use? There is no "free" version that I've ever heard of except for pirated versions. The WinME price will be $89.95 for the upgrade, $189.95 for the full edition as far as I know. I reserve hate for sin, the devil, and other such evil things, I do not hate Bill Gates because he has done well with his business and is, like most business people, unethical sometimes. Best, Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
-----Original Message----- From: Syeh Abidin [mailto:A3@telkom.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 4:09 AM To: Timothy R. Butler Cc: Samy Elashmawy; SuSE Mailing List Subject: Re[2]: [SLE] Fundamental differences
Hello Timothy,
I want to know price for WinME ? and for that demo/ his product, what a ?? In this world, and in Islam religius it's called "Riba", and who has to much on it will go to "real" hell..!
I HATEEEEEE...$$MIC$$, I wonder who has buy his product and spend alot of money of it, (Even I use It, But I use "Free" Version) Get a free Linux, Real Linux, no "hell"
Tuesday, July 11, 2000, 4:51:45 AM, you wrote:
TRB> Samy, TRB> The Windows 98 to Windows 98 SE upgrade is just 20 bucks at TRB> windowsupdate.microsoft.com . Even if Microsoft was the evil empire (I don't think TRB> it is), they wouldn't charge you another $89. Although I remember when DOS 6.22 TRB> came out and the 6.2 to 6.22 upgrade was just $9.
-- Best regards, Syeh mailto:A3@telkom.net
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On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
I reserve hate for sin, the devil, and other such evil things, I do not hate Bill Gates because he has done well with his business and is, like most business people, unethical sometimes.
Sorry, but I can't standby and listen to such excuses of Bill Gates actions. He may be a brilliant man but as a proven liar and a extortionist he deserves nothing but contempt from me. No business that I run will ever be run the way Gates runs Microsoft. As someone who advertises Christianity in their sig I would think that you believe that integrity and ethics are important traits in a person. If unethical business pracitices are ignored by Christianity then I'm glad I'm not a Christian. If you're just being forgiving then I understand but it sounds like you couldn't care less about how Microsoft got to be where it is. Greg -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
Dear SUSE Community, With the greatest respect for ALL people, I must ask everyone to please stop this thread. It has strayed beyond any connection with SUSE Linux. We need to avoid the acrimony which has hurt so other lists. ............ Pete Van Campen Greg Thomas wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Timothy R. Butler wrote:
I reserve hate for sin, the devil, and other such evil things, I do not hate Bill Gates because he has done well with his business and is, like most business people, unethical sometimes.
Sorry, but I can't standby and listen to such excuses of Bill Gates actions. He may be a brilliant man but as a proven liar and a
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--
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Peter B.Van Campen
pbvanca@ameritech.net
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Hi Greg,
As someone who advertises Christianity in their sig I would think that you believe that integrity and ethics are important traits in a person. If
That would be true. BUT, and that's a big but, if you study Christian doctrine you will see that we feel that no person is really any worse than any other (we all sin, are evil, and are in debt for it). If Bill asks God to forgive him, he is forgiven, and Bible says we should do the same with Mr. Gates. So to sum this up before getting accused of witnessing along with voicing pro-Microsoft stances on a Linux group, I hate the sins he has committed just like I hate the ones I've committed. However, it wouldn't be fair to hate him unless I myself am without sin ("He who is without sin, cast the first stone"). Remember, there is a difference in saying "I hate unethical business practices" and saying "I hate Bill Gates." -Tim ----------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Butler Universal Networks Information Tech. Consultant Christian Web Services Since 1996 ICQ #12495932 AIM: Uninettm An Authorized IPSwitch Reseller tbutler@uninetsolutions.com http://www.uninetsolutions.com ===================== "Solutions that Work" =====================
unethical business pracitices are ignored by Christianity then I'm glad I'm not a Christian. If you're just being forgiving then I understand but it sounds like you couldn't care less about how Microsoft got to be where it is.
Greg
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* Timothy R. Butler
Hi Greg,
As someone who advertises Christianity in their sig I would think that you believe that integrity and ethics are important traits in a person. If
That would be true. BUT, and that's a big but, if you study Christian doctrine...
Please... this is getting ridiculously off topic. I get more posts about microsoft vs. linux than about SuSE it seems. And now it has moved on to religion even! Private mail is wonderful for such topics. (What ever happened to the list etiquette guide?) -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
I just think you are a troll. Learn some about CS and operating systems. Come back in a while when Bill doesn't have you under his voodoo magic.
Jack,
I'm not a troll. I've been using Linux for 7 years and I have a 1st class degree in Comp Sci. I think I know what I'm talking about, and I also know when I *don't* know stuff, which is more than can be said for a lot of people.
I was wrong for questioning yours (or anyone elses) skills, reguardless of what you know or don't know. That is my bad, I was pissed off when I wrote that mail and it was wrong of me to snap like that. But IMHO the post looked kinda trollish.
What actually caused my original post was when I saw that Windows 98 (I think, maybe NT or W2K) does what we call IP masquerading. It seems that Microsoft is catching up with the system level power of Linux and slowly erradicating our advantages. This worries me.
First if you have or haven't noticing, running W2k or NT is impossiable or extremely slow to run on 486 gear with limited ram for ip masq/NAT/routing. Clearly here you have to admit Linux is very strong on older equipment or smalled dedicated tasks like routing. Win98 will run, but it will munch a lot of disk space, where an entire Linux router could be booted off 2 floppy disks. For a test, try getting any Windows (weather it be win3.1 or W2k) running on a 486 w/ 4 megs of ram, no hard drive, 2 floppy disks that will do NAT. Clearly Linux wins here. What have we learned here? We know that linux is small and tight. A clear advantage over windows** where it takes anywhere from 20 megs to 150 megs of disk space just to install the base system. Also try getting an exact same enovirment with any Windows (weather it be win3.1 or W2k) across a i386, sparc, alpha platforms. Oh wait expect for a few (old and unsupported) versions of NT, windows isn't cross-platform. What have we learned here? Linux is portable. Got a bug in your system? Under linux you can, fix the bug insteading of waiting for SuSE or Red Hat post a fix. Under Windows? Wait for it to show up on Microsoft's web site. Free Software means alot. Besides the fact that it is cheaper by windows, you can legally change any parts of the freely distrubated source code for your own benifit as long as you release any modifications you have made. Try changing something in windows and see where it gets you, probably in jail or sued most likely. Also say you need a dedicated server with remote access. Why should it have a fancy GUI eating up memory and CPU cycles? Detact the GUI, even delete it from the system. Yes Linux can do that. No I don't think Windows95,98,NT,W2k can do this and still funcation properly. What have we learned here? Linux is moduler and can be custom fitted to any sisuation. There is something I am unclear on since I am not famlair with Windows. Please show me how to config a dedicated NT or W2k with build in freely avaiable secure remote access (like OpenSSH for example), delete the GUI windowing system and config, use and admin everything by a secure remote terminal using all command line tools. Oh and also please send links where I could download all this software for free and get all document and support for also no cost. I will admint, I haven't given NT or W2K a fair chance, please give me insturctions on how to do this and I will be %100 open minded to the process. If not, my servers will stay unix. :) Windows (any version from 95-w2K) is %100 easier for the "normal consumer" user to use, I will give you that. They do an excellence job at this. But I have yet to see one good thing about a Microsoft OS that would suit it to be in a server-type envoriment. Linux was based (not directly) off Unix. Unix has always been forced on server market machine, therefore Linux is targeted towards the server market. IMHO I think Linux makes a dam good server compared to any version of windows.
If you think this is also a troll, kindly keep your mouth shut and let others make constructive comments.
It appeared at first to be a troll and still have some doubts. Jack -- To unsubscribe send e-mail to suse-linux-e-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the FAQ at http://www.suse.com/support/faq
participants (13)
-
A3＠telkom.net -
bcomber＠an-netz.de -
ethant＠pacificnet.net -
fountai＠hursley.ibm.com -
gaf＠gaf.ne.mediaone.net -
jbarnett＠axil.netmate.com -
jcm＠bigskytel.com -
juergen.braukmann＠ruhr-west.de -
pbvanca＠ameritech.net -
phil＠keenstreet.com.au -
samelash＠ix.netcom.com -
tabanna＠aig.forthnet.gr -
tbutler＠uninetsolutions.com