2013. május 16. 20:26 napon DenverD írta:

On 05/16/2013 05:59 PM, Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

I have openSUSE 12.1

openSUSE 12.1 sailed past its end-of-life yesterday (cite: http://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime) you should consider moving to a supported version..

[sorry, i can't answer any KDE3 questions. but i do know they are best asked on the mail list mentioned in http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3]

dd

Thank you. Frankly, oS 12.1 is the last openSUSE which has sysvinit type booting, all the newer versions use systemd exclusively, and I don't want that crap on my computer. Based on the fact that KDE4 after these many years of continuous development and despite the tremendous effort put in it still has not reached the stability, usability and overall quality of the abandoned KDE3, I don't have high hopes regarding systemd. I guess don't fix what ain't broken perfectly applies here. That is, I will keep 12.1 (and 11.2 as well) as long as I can and in the meantime I am preparing for switching to another system, probably FreeBSD. After the rant, going back to my original question, I see that /media is a tmpfs filesystem in oS 12. Is there a (possibly easy) way to change it to normal permanent filesystem? Thanks, Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-05-16 14:46 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:

KDE4 ... does everything kde3 did

False, as I've written here far more than once: (filed 5 years ago) https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158556

and then some.

Clearly, e.g.: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297219 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-05-16 23:23 (GMT+0100) Dylan composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=297219

You can hide any you don't want to see...

Not as in KDE3 via single click, which is what I need to do often many times in a session. If it was possible that bug would not still be confirmed and open. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-05-16 20:59 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:

On 5/16/2013 3:00 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

On 2013-05-16 14:46 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:

...

...

KDE4 ... does everything kde3 did

...

False, as I've written here far more than once: (filed 5 years ago) https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158556

Seriously? Panel Auto-hide? You've been holding out for years because of something fixed ages ago?

What is it you think got fixed? Bug 158556 is not about auto-hide. It's about a regression, missing manual hide. There is no manual hide button available in KDE4. That's what I need. Auto-hide doesn't do what I need in KDE4, same as it didn't do what I needed in KDE3. IOW, KDE4 does _not_ do everything KDE3 did (and still does in both KDE3 and TDE).

Its Fixed. And file picker is nearly instantaneous.

You've obviously not tried to reproduce the conditions described in the picker bug that are inescapable here and cause the the unacceptable delay. I use KDE4 on test systems, but bug 158556 and the picker bugs make KDE4 unacceptable for this user's normal routine use, and annoying to use even on test systems. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 17/05/2013 06:22, Felix Miata a écrit :

On 2013-05-16 20:59 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:

...

On 5/16/2013 3:00 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

On 2013-05-16 14:46 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:

...

...

...

KDE4 ... does everything kde3 did

...

...

False, as I've written here far more than once: (filed 5 years ago) https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158556

...

Seriously? Panel Auto-hide? You've been holding out for years because of something fixed ages ago?

What is it you think got fixed? Bug 158556 is not about auto-hide. It's about a regression, missing manual hide. There is no manual hide button available in KDE4. That's what I need. Auto-hide doesn't do what I need in KDE4, same as it didn't do what I needed in KDE3. IOW, KDE4 does _not_ do everything KDE3 did (and still does in both KDE3 and TDE).

...

Its Fixed. And file picker is nearly instantaneous.

You've obviously not tried to reproduce the conditions described in the picker bug that are inescapable here and cause the the unacceptable delay.

I use KDE4 on test systems, but bug 158556 and the picker bugs make KDE4 unacceptable for this user's normal routine use, and annoying to use even on test systems.

I agree with Felix, KDE4 is not at KDE3 level for people using keyboard only, instead of mouse. So I use KDE3. Dsant, from France. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-05-17 15:06 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

After all, linux *is* about choice!

I used to think that. I have my doubts any more after seeing discussion about Linda's initrds and /usr moves, installation nightmares with Fedora's "newUI", and the things that no longer work for those who have "upgraded" to versions where systemd is the only supported init system. Then last night trying to use KDE 4.10.x I decided after finding none I wanted to put a Firefox icon next to the Konq icon on the (only) kicker (aka panel). I was eventually able to put one near the clock, but after more than 5 minutes monkeying with it failed to figure out how to place one or move one where I wanted it and gave up. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-05-17 17:19 (GMT-0400) James Knott composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

I was eventually able to put one near the clock, but after more than 5 minutes monkeying with it failed to figure out how to place one or move one where I wanted it and gave up.

That's a new "feature".

KDE4 features feature bloat and surprise paradigm changes with bling (aka compositing) overlays and data mining (aka nepomuk) underlays to slow things down for those who don't throw their puters away every three years or less. :-p -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 17 May 2013 17:19:18 -0400 James Knott wrote:

Felix Miata wrote:

...

I was eventually able to put one near the clock, but after more than 5 minutes monkeying with it failed to figure out how to place one or move one where I wanted it and gave up.

That's a new "feature".

No that is old feature that is built in a human brain. There is substantial difference in brain activity needed to find new solution and to apply existing, we tend to resort to old ways whenever possible, and that goes so far that a new solution that is superior in a long run, but doesn't save enough energy in a short term, is rejected. Majority of us is not good at the long term benefits so no surprise there. For instance, drag and drop is a "new" concept to people that learned to deal with configuration files and KDE guys made almost anything drag and drop. How inexcusable waste of developer's time :) On the other hands, kids with smartphones learned that you just drag stuff around. They will solve Felix's dilemma before seconds are passed. Not that young brain does stuff very differently, but their pathways are created around GUI, not some files in some directory that are related to GUI layout. They will scream only if oldtimers try to guide them away from GUI :) -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata said the following on 05/17/2013 05:09 PM:

On 2013-05-17 15:06 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

...

After all, linux *is* about choice!

I used to think that. I have my doubts any more after seeing discussion about Linda's initrds and /usr moves, installation nightmares with Fedora's "newUI", and the things that no longer work for those who have "upgraded" to versions where systemd is the only supported init system. Then last night trying to use KDE 4.10.x I decided after finding none I wanted to put a Firefox icon next to the Konq icon on the (only) kicker (aka panel). I was eventually able to put one near the clock, but after more than 5 minutes monkeying with it failed to figure out how to place one or move one where I wanted it and gave up.

If I could understand what you're trying to do I'd offer to help... IIR one KDE4 systems I installed had a FF icon on the bottom panel, but I moved it to the menu's 'favourites. -- Most people are not really free. They are confined by the niche in the world that they carve out for themselves. They limit themselves to fewer possibilities by the narrowness of their vision. --V. S. Naipaul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 17 May 2013 18:38:07 -0400 Felix Miata wrote: ...

On first open: no Firefox icon appears on panel I change starter to classic style

Search does not exist in classic style and this days with elaborated menu structure it is convenient to ask for certain application via search and if it is often used then move it to Favorites, Quicklaunch, etc. (It is bias stemming from old days that makes you browse instead search. BTW, Don't feel offended as we all have biases that do the same: impairs decision making process.)

I delete (never to be used) "activities" icon from panel

It is Activities and Add Widget panel, so hating Activities made you remove an easy visible access to your other helper :) You can get it from context menu too. (That is bias too, and not to your advantage.) ...

IIRC, it was Win9x the better part of two decades ago that introduced the taskbar concept of "quick launch" at lower left next to the main menu starter for most used apps. To me that remains the most valid paradigm for most frequently used apps.

Absolutely useful if you plan to use browsing trough all the menus of Classic style main menu, but in KDE you can: * do the same, just drag and drop icon for you application to the place on a "kickstater" (panel) where you want it; if it is not right where you want it, then either edit panel, or delete and drag from source again * you can also add widget Quicklaunch that can host a lot of your favorites; you can add more then one widget, so you can group apps. To fill up widget, use drag'n'drop.

So, I try to get a Firefox icon for quick starting it placed in this vicinity, but no can do.

See above. Drag'n'drop is not a new concept, and it is sometimes fun to explore what you can do with it in KDE4.

PS, after using awhile and many exit (without closing Konsole first)/restart cycles of KDE using different X configurations, Konsole about 40% of the time on restart is stuck on panel, unable to be raised to desktop, or closed. Another or more session restarts is required to restore access to this Konsole instance.

And, there's still no manual panel hide,

I'll have to ask you why is manual panel hiding so important to you. How big is screen that you use, and how much savings on a screen surface offers hidden panel? Then, once it is hidden, how that improves accessibility? You have to click to "unhide" it and then click to start application. To me it appears as focus on feature that makes sense in some very limited use cases, like kiosk mode, which most likely you don't use. Besides there is few desktop layouts besides classic that you may want to explore for your benefit. If nothing else, you will know that you are not missing them.

and file picker is still a sluggard.

Its design is appropriate for computers that have not 100 partitions. I'm sure it can be improved, but it will help how many users? You could the only one in the world with such massive number of devices placed in fstab. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata said the following on 05/18/2013 02:28 AM:

[...]

I mostly do only minimal installs, to minimize noise from never to be used apps, minimize bandwidth consumption and time consumption at installation and update times, and minimize space required for a usable installation so as to fit a larger diversity of installations in a given total available space. With minimal selection available, need for a typed search to find an app is non-existent, and non-appreciated. Typed searches I do in individual application search boxes, web page search boxes, OFMs, and YaST, not in DE menuing systems.

The few favorite apps are either kept open continuously, or fit on a small panel space, like in Windows 9x.

Nothing wrong with that; you're describing a sort-of "kiosk mode" as Rajko says. Just don't expect a general purpose screen from the selection available to do everything. That's why there are other options. The whole point of the things you seem to be fighting against here are there for the reasons you've chosen not to want to use them. Now that's a perfectly valid use case, as you go on to describe, but its like complaining your Miata sports car doesn't have the ability to car around the wife and kids and camping gear and supplies for the annual vacation http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085995/ Or worse, not we have minivans!

Here there are many installations. Similarity and repeatability among them are desirable characteristics

ROTFLMAO! Most of what MS-Windows is about gives trivial customization: colour, fonts, placement etc. Linux GUIs have followed. Lock-down is about ... well "Kiosk mode". Yes, productive factory worker-droids shouldn't be allowed to waster time fiddling with the GUI settings, so this was 'obviously' a conspiracy on the part of the Communist Nations to cut down the productivity of the West. And yes there are web sites about this. Go google to see who has further wasted time drawing then up ...

There is no "just" DND here. I didn't like DND decades ago when it was a new thing, and I don't like it now.

See Rajko's comment on cognition of the new ..

It's poorly repeatable,

Except by people that aren't antagonistic to it, just like, for example, systemd and KDE4.

Automagic is usually fine for typical uses. My uses aren't typical, and automagic is as likely to get in my way as be useful.

There are other types of display under KDE4 and there are other DMs If as you say the application set is small and fixed then why do you need something as comprehensive and powerful as KDE4? But if you want a restricted setting the why not use kiosktool http://techbase.kde.org/KDE_System_Administration/Kiosk/Introduction That given, I can think of other DMs more suited to the strap-down configuration. Really, here, we're doing two things. 1. Solving a problem that isn't so much part of Felix's "use case" (which seems to be a strap-down/kiosk situation) as "the deckchairs n the Titanic" of how to arrange icons on a panel. 2. Having to deal with Felix's own prejudices about things like DnD. I think we, and Felix, need to step back a moment and go into "Consultant mode" rather then "Techie mode" and stop trying to drill down on this technical problem and re-read Felix's description of what he's trying to DELIVER to his users (stripped of all the stuff about 14" viewing etc). The fact that so many of us can do what Felix says he can't tells me that either (a) its not a technical problem or (b) Felix has his system so wildly configured that nothing can work! I think that because he's shown me a stripped down "new" account/screen snapshots that (b) is not the case. So lets not keep hammering at him as if he can't follow our instructions. We know Felix is VERY technically experienced and competent. So lets step back and ask what the real issue, what the 'deliverable' here is, 'cos it sure ain't simply the placement of an icon on a panel; that's just his immediate hurdle. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, the robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis, _God in the Dock_ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-05-18 07:49 (GMT-0500) Rajko composed:

On Sat, 18 May 2013 02:28:53 -0400 Felix Miata wrote:

See, your use case is testing, but what you test is not a typical use case with default selection as a base, it is arbitrary downsized system and application set that may, or may not work the same way as default installation.

Not infrequently the test is for whether unexpected consequences follow from non-default settings or usage.

Your change to packaging system: solver.onlyRequires = true in /etc/zypp/zypp.conf combined with difference in opinion between you and packager what belongs to Require, this can drop out some helper libraries, or applications that are present in a default set. Your system may have

systemS, plural, and many.

different properties then the one of average users, so your problem could be all between, only yours and affects everybody.

I test various things, one of which is for broken dependencies. Without solver.onlyRequires=true they escape discovery. e.g. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=820571

...

There is no "just" DND here. I didn't like DND decades ago when it was a new thing, and I don't like it now. It's poorly repeatable,...

Again, you have a problem with something that is not present for average user. You want repeatability to the last pixel

It's not about last pixel. It either fits, or it doesn't fit. Many times the panel's 30 or so px make a difference that completely changes the context. Sometimes the panel's content constitutes noise. For me, cut & paste works far more reliably and repeatably than DND.

...

The need is difficult to explain, so I won't try to do it in detail. It's all about laying out objects on the desktop for full screen screenshots in which the panel is not to be included in the shot

Not having panel in a screenshot is an extra demand that will not change quality of a screenshot; it will be more like dropping out an aid to

Actually it can make a big difference. Either it's good enough, or it's not; something fits, or it doesn't; it shows what it needs to show, or it doesn't; go/no-go.

people watching your image. Panel has its standard size in default installation, so it works as some kind of reference object. (Note: "some kind", not pixel precise reference.)

"Standard" panel size is invariably too short when desktop is significantly more than 1024x768, which is one of the recurring problems I have to deal with. I use other objects for reference, such as the fonts control panel, KCalc and/or the X Server panel served by kcmshell(4). The DND-only method of customizing panel height, not a limitation of KDE3, is non-repeatable without digging into ~/.kde4 while KDE4 session is closed.

Does KDE3 automatically update display? How often it scans for updated information?

Irrelevant. I do far more session starting and stopping than average. Updates happen often enough for my purposes.

Also, you can configure that panel to show only what you want to see.

Typically a default panel shows all I need to see. This thread spur happened because I tried to deviate from typical.

Don't be surprised that developers and other users have sometimes hard time to reproduce bugs and problems you can see.

In many cases I assume they have a hard time, or cannot. What I test typically requires testing in a very wide variety of conditions, to find what varies on account of different conditions. I know most use few or only one set of conditions, one screen, or maybe two, running at the screens' preferred or native resolution. Of course they cannot precisely reproduce if equipment or other limitations prevent matching the conditions I used. This is why my screenshots are often made in sets instead of individually, and why some things need to be readily repeatable. Most recently: http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fnt/CSSsmall/ for individual images http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Fnt/CSSsmall/font-small-images.html to load all images at once -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata said the following on 05/17/2013 05:09 PM:

On 2013-05-17 15:06 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

...

After all, linux *is* about choice!

I used to think that. I have my doubts any more after seeing discussion about Linda's initrds and /usr moves, installation nightmares with Fedora's "newUI", and the things that no longer work for those who have "upgraded" to versions where systemd is the only supported init system.

I've just read http://www.zdnet.com/anonymous-msft-developer-admits-linux-is-faster-than-wi... and am glad to be associated with what amounts to a 'drive for excellence'. -- People don't react to reality; they react to their perceptions of reality. -- human psychology truism -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-05-17 18:25 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

unlock widgets -> panel options -> panel settings -> drag and drop

There used to be next to or near "add widgets", the rather obvious "add application". Where did it go? Drag & drop from where? DND makes me nuts, not infrequently making things disappear by treating an accidental minimal drag as if done on purpose. MC is my file manager, and not by using a pointing device. The time I was able to get a FF icon to the wrong end of the 4.10.x panel, I did it via context menu for FF in the application starter, not DND. That result is what was disallowed from being dragged to the other end, even though panel remained, as virtually always here, unlocked. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

Felix Miata said the following on 05/17/2013 06:52 PM:

...

On 2013-05-17 18:25 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

...

unlock widgets -> panel options -> panel settings -> drag and drop

There used to be next to or near "add widgets", the rather obvious "add application".

There is an 'add to panel' option from the main menu.

...

Where did it go? Drag & drop from where?

Once its on the main menu, use the peanut a the end of the panel to open it for editing.

Peanut? Cashew? How many nuts are in KDE4? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Felix Miata [05-17-13 22:36]:

On 2013-05-17 18:25 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

...

unlock widgets -> panel options -> panel settings -> drag and drop

Pictography:

Done fresh a short while ago (same as I did last night): http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/kdepanelshortcut4-10-x-step1.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/kdepanelshortcut4-10-x-step2.png http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/kdepanelshortcut4-10-x-step3.png

From here is where everything always goes nuts. Responses to mouse actions are inexplicable, leaving what seems to be random rearrangement of several areas instead of simple dropping FF between FM and Konq icons right of pager area.

As I wrote upthread, DND & I don't get along.

12.2, 4.10.1 r545 Last updated March 31

T'weed, 4.10.2 r1 April 22 http://wahoo.no-ip.org/~pat/Shot1.jpg http://wahoo.no-ip.org/~pat/Shot2.jpg http://wahoo.no-ip.org/~pat/Shot3.jpg http://wahoo.no-ip.org/~pat/Shot4.jpg as previously diagrammed. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata said the following on 05/18/2013 12:22 AM:

Thanks for trying, but no grok based simply on order presented. I was able to get FF into nearby location, then rearrange nearby icons to make it end up where I wanted. It refused to drop in between file manager and Konq, but fell into place after deleting activities icon and then deleting file manager icon.

Well OBVIOUSLY! You were expecting a liner movement when the reason it was jerking around is that the if was reshuffling those. Not everything is the same width and if you move a 16px wide which is on the right of a 200px wide object then there's going to be a jump/jerk as they "swap places". All of a sudden the 16px is 200px to the left! JUMP! JERK! NONLINEAR! Now add in some things are 'stretch-to-fit-available-space' or otherwise elastic. Now add in each widget can have other attributes ... Now add in the panel can have attributes ... Now add in there can be spacers - and they can be elastic too ... Yes, the resulting behaviour/interaction can be non-intuitive. And it doesn't help that you cannot see many of the widgets (like spacers) or things like task managers that are 'empty'. So you have to find out that they are there and what their effects will be. Just like everything else in life and non-trivial software :-) -- First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Mahatma Gandhi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/17/2013 05:09 PM, Felix Miata pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On 2013-05-17 15:06 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

...

After all, linux *is* about choice!

I used to think that. I have my doubts any more after seeing discussion about Linda's initrds and /usr moves, installation nightmares with Fedora's "newUI", and the things that no longer work for those who have "upgraded" to versions where systemd is the only supported init system. Then last night trying to use KDE 4.10.x I decided after finding none I wanted to put a Firefox icon next to the Konq icon on the (only) kicker (aka panel). I was eventually able to put one near the clock, but after more than 5 minutes monkeying with it failed to figure out how to place one or move one where I wanted it and gave up.

You need to unlock the widgets (icons) before you can move them. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 5/17/2013 4:28 PM, Doug wrote:

On 05/17/2013 07:21 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

On 05/17/2013 05:09 PM, Felix Miata pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

On 2013-05-17 15:06 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

...

After all, linux *is* about choice!

I used to think that. I have my doubts any more after seeing discussion about Linda's initrds and /usr moves, installation nightmares with Fedora's "newUI", and the things that no longer work for those who have "upgraded" to versions where systemd is the only supported init system. Then last night trying to use KDE 4.10.x I decided after finding none I wanted to put a Firefox icon next to the Konq icon on the (only) kicker (aka panel). I was eventually able to put one near the clock, but after more than 5 minutes monkeying with it failed to figure out how to place one or move one where I wanted it and gave up.

You need to unlock the widgets (icons) before you can move them.

If he moved something "near the clock" then he must have the panel unlocked, but if not, then click on a clear part of the display, and you should get a selection to unlock widgets, and do so. At any rate, with the widgets unlocked, click on the "cashew" at the far right end of the panel. Then you should see a four-pointed dingus over any item on the panel that you mouse to. Drag the desired widget/icon just slightly _past_ the desired place for it and let go. It should now be where you want it. Close the application with the little red ball with the white x in it at the right hand end. Done!

--doug

But Doug.... He doesn't want to learn new tricks. That is essentially his whole rant. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/17/2013 07:21 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

You need to unlock the widgets (icons) before you can move them.

If he moved something "near the clock" then he must have the panel unlocked, but if not, then click on a clear part of the display, and you should get a selection to unlock widgets, and do so. Should have said "right click" --doug -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

...

Come on! You're reaching. If you don't want to use KDE4, just say you are stubborn and leave it lay at that, but don't ask for "official" ways to do anything with a system that has been dead for 5 years.

No, leave him be. He's essentially saying that he won't upgrade his car because he can't get it in the colour of the old one. Now that may seem silly to you and me, but the point is that its important to him.

And others...

Well, perhaps not colour, but you can find a lot of example in society of people sticking with 'the old way' for various reasons up to and including "well my grandfather was born and died in this house and I'm not moving from it".

Those who live in a hot climate need cool colors (e.g. silver or white), so cars unavailable in those colors will sell poorly if at all. Silver paint doesn't last, so that leaves white for those who need durability too.

People has postyed here about staying with 11.4 for good reasons and ther is a suport group for the people who want to stay with KDE3.

WRT computing, one can become dependent on features that most don't understand or use. KDE3 had features that are broken (file picker) or unavailable (manual panel hiding) in KDE4. X up through 12.1 has functional panning. which is missing in standard repo configurations (upstream regression, not just openSUSE). 11.4 has sysvinit. 12.1 has sysvinit by option. Newer means jumping through hoops at best to keep on keeping on with what isn't/wasn't broke and doesn't/didn't need fixing.

Any new thing, be it a automobile, computer or piece of software, means changes (otherwise why bother?). Some represent the start of a new sequence rather than just a refinement of an old one such as electric cars not being a further refinement of the internal combustion engine).

A car can continue to be used, bugs and all, as long as it's cared for properly and protected against impacts and vandalism. Gasoline and diesel are quickly refilled, and more efficient WRT space and mass than batteries that take time to charge when depleted and require bigger brakes to stop. Puting incorporates a paradigm that doesn't apply to cars. The web is evolving in a fashion that cannot be stopped. Web developers as a group presume latest browser features, so latest browsers are necessary to retain safest access. For Windows users, latest browsers are available for a 12 year old OS version through standard channels. If you use Linux, equivalent availability can expire in as little as 18 months. Things that have been around decades or hundreds or thousands of years probably don't need to be changed. Newer is not equivalent to better. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-05-17 10:17 (GMT-0400) Anton Aylward composed:

Question for you: All those old fashioned range rovers that seem to be a traditional part of the desert scene, all those more modern range rovers I see in the hot climate of the south of France. They seem to be all colours.

Maybe acquisition is handled by corporate desk jockeys who don't drive them. Those who purchase new vehicles typically replace them before paint deterioration becomes an issue. Those who purchase pre-owned typically don't have much in the way of color choices when need to buy a particular make and/or model arises.

Are you saying that, similarly, people in hot countries only wear white when out of doors?

I'm sure those interested in keeping cool as possible while unable to avoid being in the sun prefer to wear the lightest available clothing colors. I live at 28 degrees N latitude. Black, navy and brown are not popular color choices during summer around here, or even during winter. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

Question for you: All those old fashioned range rovers that seem to be a traditional part of the desert scene, all those more modern range rovers I see in the hot climate of the south of France. They seem to be all colours.

Are you saying that, similarly, people in hot countries only wear white when out of doors?

Wow. Go to any desert country. ALL of the civilian cars are white. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen said the following on 05/16/2013 05:46 PM:

On 5/16/2013 2:38 PM, Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

Based on the fact that KDE4 after these many years of continuous development and despite the tremendous effort put in it still has not reached the stability, usability and overall quality of the abandoned KDE3,

Your computer and your choice, but nothing in the above statement is true.

KDE4 for the last couple years is rock solid, fully functional, and does everything kde3 did and then some.

+6,023*10^24

I too was a hold out for a couple years, but really, you should put your bias aside and try it.

And for the record, I don't have any problems with systemd either. (Personal single user PC).

See above. As I said earlier, once prejudice against something set in there isn't going to be the investment in learning that the prejudice is unfounded.

The only thing I found problematic with 12.3 is the Xorg needed updates for my particular card.

ROTFLMAO! And which revision hasn't resulted in that? If there's one hassle I see with Linux that is pretty much universal for every distribution (except Knoppix) its around X! -- For ages, a deadly conflict has been waged between a few brave men and women of thought and genius upon the one side, and the great ignorant religious mass on the other. This is the war between Science and Faith. The few have appealed to reason, to honor, to law, to freedom, to the known, and to happiness here in this world. The many have appealed to prejudice, to fear, to miracle, to slavery, to the unknown, and to misery hereafter. The few have said "Think" The many have said "Believe!" --Robert Ingersoll (Gods) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am 16/05/13 20:26, schrieb DenverD:

On 05/16/2013 05:59 PM, Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

I have openSUSE 12.1

openSUSE 12.1 sailed past its end-of-life yesterday (cite: http://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime) you should consider moving to a supported version..

What is the best way to move from 12.1 to 12.3 and keep /home (not a partition of it's own) and /var/spool/news ( /var is a partition on a SSD)? Or is it better to use 12.2 currently and go to 13.1 later on? Thanks in advance Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 5/21/2013 12:52 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

Officially you would upgrade from 12.1 to 12.2, then 12.2 to 12.3

That is certainly the most tested approach, but several people have also reported success going straight from 12.1 to 12.3

I've never seen that official recommendation to single-step each upgrade. (Not saying such isn't recommended in some obscure place, juta that its pointless. I've gone directly from 11.4 to 12.3 with an inplace upgrade with zero problems. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 5/21/2013 1:30 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:59 PM, John Andersen wrote:

...

On 5/21/2013 12:52 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

Officially you would upgrade from 12.1 to 12.2, then 12.2 to 12.3

That is certainly the most tested approach, but several people have also reported success going straight from 12.1 to 12.3

I've never seen that official recommendation to single-step each upgrade. (Not saying such isn't recommended in some obscure place, juta that its pointless.

I've gone directly from 11.4 to 12.3 with an inplace upgrade with zero problems.

You got lucky :) (but I agree it normally works from what I see people post)

After a rpm is installed there is a %postin (post install) section of logic that gets run.

If there is a config file or on-disk structure change that has to be addressed during an upgrade, that's where it is done.

The devs can add as much backwards compatibility to that as they like, but it is only required that a smooth upgrade from the previous version is supported.

Greg

Don't think its luck at all, since I've been doing this (skipping two or three releases) since the late Pleistocene, and never had a problem. Almost everyone else says it works well, by your own admission, so I doubt I had any special or unusual luck. Perhaps a few people have especially bad luck. So either the devs are very good at taking care of this, or the so called "on disk structure change" is a relativly rare thing indeed. Worst case is some package falls back to installation default and you have to go and copy over your config files or something. Some releases ago I had one bit of Samba take a disliking to my configuration but it substituted it's own, which was fail-safe. That is just about the only thing I can recall. The only reason I switched from 11.4 is because it hit end of life and no more security patches would be forthcoming. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: On Tuesday, 2013-05-21 at 12:59 -0700, John Andersen wrote:

On 5/21/2013 12:52 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

Officially you would upgrade from 12.1 to 12.2, then 12.2 to 12.3

That is certainly the most tested approach, but several people have also reported success going straight from 12.1 to 12.3

I've never seen that official recommendation to single-step each upgrade. (Not saying such isn't recommended in some obscure place, juta that its pointless.

I have. Read: ····································· Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 09:39:31 +0100 From: Stephan Kulow <@novell.com> Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] "zypper dup" from 11.2 to 11.4? Am Donnerstag, 9. Dezember 2010 schrieb Gerald Pfeifer:

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

...

In the past, we recommended to use the dup feature to upgrade from 11.2 to 11.3. I'm wondering whether it will be supported to upgrade directly from 11.2 to 11.4 and thus skipping one version (11.3)?

It will not be supported - even if it may work.

Not supported by who?

And, as a corollary, who supports the upgrade path from 11.3 to 11.4?

(And what does support mean to begin with, in the context of openSUSE?)

I forgot to answer this: lack of support in the context of openSUSE means RESOLVED/INVALID Greetings, Stephan ····································· And seeing who wrote that, it is an official statement. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlGcejoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U6CgCffElwRtU9vrErjLmO2UvgPXFF AscAn3ZJUAzCNfhTvxsPpv9nO6lGZjHL =Fzxf -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Am 22/05/13 09:59, schrieb Carlos E. R.: [...]

You can jump versions with more chance of support via the off-line method:

http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Offline_upgrade [...]

Is the above also ok for an update 12.1 to 13.1? Since an update from 3.1.10-1.19 to 3.1.10-1.29 for 12.1 failed with a completely messed up /boot (see thread Subject: after update, modprobe does not find libz.so.1 ) I am also thinking of installing the newest version of SuSE 13.1 if all fails. I have a backup from today on USB3.0 disk, which contains $HOME and /var/spool/news If possible I would like to keep the $HOME files untouched (no format of any disk). The /boot ist on a SSD , / is on a RAID1. Last time when I went to 12.1 I remember that certain things were not working: 1) systemd did not work with my RAID1, I had to revert back to sysvinit I read a few things in the forum, there seem to be problems still. 2) KMail for KDE 4.X crashed often, import of old KMail3 mails also did not work. I was able to use KMail 1.9.10, KDE 3.5.10 release 214 instead. Is KMail for KDE 4.X working in 13.1 or do I still have to use the older version? Thanks in advance ME -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am 08/06/14 23:51, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

On 2014-06-08 23:22, Markus Egg wrote:

...

Am 22/05/13 09:59, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

[...]

...

You can jump versions with more chance of support via the off-line method:

http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Offline_upgrade [...]

Is the above also ok for an update 12.1 to 13.1?

Yes, the procedure is the same. However, a long jump has more posibilities of failing than a short one, and 12.1 - 13.1 never coexisted.

:-( So I should do 12.1->12.3 and then 12.3 to 13.1 ?

...

I have a backup from today on USB3.0 disk, which contains $HOME and /var/spool/news If possible I would like to keep the $HOME files untouched (no format of any disk).

You can install fresh, formatting root, and not formatting home - provided they are separate partitions.

home and root are the same partition, both on the raid1 .

Same goes for "news".

/var is on the SSD so that should be ok.

...

The /boot ist on a SSD , / is on a RAID1.

Hum. Upgrade has some problems with raid.

:-((((

Sometimes the raid is seen as md128 or similar, instead of md0, and the device name change can cause problems when booting the system. I don't remember what exact version(s) had this problem.

root was mounted on /dev/md126p2 /dev/md126p1 is a Win7 partition (dual boot). It's only one of those cheap raids on the motherboard.

...

2) KMail for KDE 4.X crashed often, import of old KMail3 mails also did not work. I was able to use KMail 1.9.10, KDE 3.5.10 release 214 instead. Is KMail for KDE 4.X working in 13.1 or do I still have to use the older version?

AFAIK, kmail works, but people have reported problems with migrating email folders.

Seems to be the same problems I had on SuSE 12.1. So no change. :-(

I don't know if it works now or not, I don't use kmail.

Can I simply use KMail from KDE 3.5.10? That would be enough.

If I wanted to be sure, I would upload all my email to a local machine imap server, like dovecot. Failing that, export all your email in plain "mbox" format, which is easier to import on other applications.

I just remember KMail4 messing up the input, crashing, putting all email flat instead within subfolders and the pain was going on and on. Well, looks like I'll have a "funny" Monday. :-/ ME -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am 09/06/14 01:54, schrieb Carlos E. R.: [...]

Me, I would attempt 13.1 in a single step, but I would make sure of having a full backup, enough to restore anything from scratch.

That's the way I did it. A 2nd machine for looking up things on internet is always helpful. [...]

...

...

I don't know if it works now or not, I don't use kmail.

Can I simply use KMail from KDE 3.5.10? That would be enough.

Dunno, probably.

Does anybode know a tool that imports the kmail3 stuff to kmail4 in a 1:1 manner? Thx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am 14/06/14 15:52, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

On 2014-06-14 12:42, MarkusGMX wrote:

...

Am 09/06/14 01:54, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

Does anybode know a tool that imports the kmail3 stuff to kmail4 in a 1:1 manner?

I do those things via an intermediate local network (or even same machine) imap server (dovecot these days).

From the source client I copy all folders to the imap server.

From the destination client I copy all folders from the imap server.

The translation is perfect, as it is done on all steps by the native tools. Of course, it means that you need the old client to be in working state -when done, you can delete it.

So I need a working KDE3 mail client to put the POP3 folders to a local networked IMAP server, then start the KDE4 mail client and copy it back from the imap server and afterwards I can go on with the POP3 email accounts? Isn't there some easier way? ;-)

And you may choose to leave the email instead on the dovecot server for ever. I did that. I no longer have to worry about the client storage method. In fact, I can use different clients even simultaneously on the same folders.

For my setup this is too centralized. Thx. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 20/06/2014 14:59, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

I know that it is the only one that works with all clients, and gets perfect results, because while the storage format the mail clients use is up to them, imap is an standard. Thus all of them have to upload and download in a standard format, and read/write to it correctly.

and may be one can only use gmail or similar. many ISP implement imap as well you can copy mails from an imap account to an other imap account in thunderbird at least (simply point and shift)

...

For my setup this is too centralized.

Yes, that can be.

both centralized (the mail is kept also on acentral server, and decentralized, because the hole mailbox is also on any client. a cloud... jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

MarkusGMX said the following on 05/21/2013 03:42 PM:

Am 16/05/13 20:26, schrieb DenverD:

...

On 05/16/2013 05:59 PM, Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

I have openSUSE 12.1

openSUSE 12.1 sailed past its end-of-life yesterday (cite: http://en.opensuse.org/Lifetime) you should consider moving to a supported version..

What is the best way to move from 12.1 to 12.3 and keep /home (not a partition of it's own) and /var/spool/news ( /var is a partition on a SSD)?

Or is it better to use 12.2 currently and go to 13.1 later on?

Why move? I'm still running 11.4 on my laptop (HP dual core[1]) and happy with it. I'm running 12.3 and 12.2/btrfs on crapped out machines to show it can be done. When I upgraded the laptop from 9.x though 10.x to 11.x to 11.4 I did it all in place. Oh, right, I took backups and poured over the release notes[2]. What you motivation and/or "Business case" for not staying with 12.1? Is there some deficiency? Can you show the 'improvement' will be worth the effort?[3] Maybe you should ask on the factory mailing list. [1] Runs better with 1.25G memory than my single core workstation does with higher clock and 4G of memory. There's a lesson there. Oh, and there's Evergreen - http://en.opensuse.org/Evergreen [2] I was also an early adopter of LVM and gradually converted more and more to that so it was simple enough at one stage to shrink a file system, create the LVM, and move /home to it. [3] Easy for some of us like me, I just pull another piece of junk out of the Closet of Anxieties and load it up ... and see how it goes. Trying out new stuff on clapped out old hardware really tells you if the new s/w is any good. I *know* the HP will run well with whatever I put on it, so there's no point in loading that up. -- How long did the whining go on when KDE2 went on KDE3? The only universal constant is change. If a species can not adapt it goes extinct. That's the law of the universe, adapt or die. -- Billine Walsh, May 18 2013 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org