On 20/10/15 09:32, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Alvin Beach [10-19-15 18:30]:

...

I'm running openSUSE 13.2 with the Kernel:stable:standard repo. I've noticed that the kernel-desktop package has been missing for some time now. I checked the OBS and don't see it in the Overview tab either. Has that package been removed? aiui, kernel-desktop has been rolled into kernel-default.

It hasn't been ROLLED into *-default. kernel-desktop has been REPLACED by kernel-default -- as in _Back to the Future_ replaced. Apart from a truckload of CONFIG statemets which were *removed* from the *-desktop but which are STILL in the *-default, these are the differences between *-desktop and *-default: http://susepaste.org/55220715 Some people running timing-critical applications may be affected by this change - but nobody appears to see fit to make an official announcement about this. If you are now trialling 'Leap of Faith' then it already contains the kernel-default (4.1.10-1.1). BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/10/15 16:57, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 7:50 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

http://susepaste.org/55220715 Was there supposed to be something in this link? I see a text box with only "1."

Yep, I stuffed up - even on the second attempt (the retention period should read 3 years). You would have gathered by now that I don't use Suse Paste all that often :-) . BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

http://susepaste.org/53290065

It seems the relevant differences are these (all the other things are just setting some parts to be modules instead of compiled in): CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP=y |# CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP is not set # CONFIG_HZ_250 is not set |CONFIG_HZ_250=y CONFIG_HZ_1000=y |# CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=1000 |CONFIG_HZ=250 # CONFIG_X86_PCC_CPUFREQ is not set |CONFIG_X86_PCC_CPUFREQ=m So what is the significance of this in reality? -- Roger Oberholtzer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/10/15 17:09, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

http://susepaste.org/53290065 It seems the relevant differences are these (all the other things are just setting some parts to be modules instead of compiled in):

CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP=y |# CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP is not set # CONFIG_HZ_250 is not set |CONFIG_HZ_250=y CONFIG_HZ_1000=y |# CONFIG_HZ_1000 is not set CONFIG_HZ=1000 |CONFIG_HZ=250 # CONFIG_X86_PCC_CPUFREQ is not set |CONFIG_X86_PCC_CPUFREQ=m

So what is the significance of this in reality?

Oh dear, once again I buggered it up :-( (that's what you get when you have someone in the background sidetracking you with a problem with the garden maintenance people :-( ). The figures on the LEFT are what is contained in the *-desktop while those on the RIGHT (preceded with '|' ) are from the *-default - thus comparing the differences between what was in the kernel-desktop as what is now in the kernel-default. Sorry about this :-( . Let me know what else I have managed to omit. BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-10-20 09:00, Per Jessen wrote:

Perhaps why you think this is such a significant change?

I also have my doubts about the 1000 -> 250 Hz change. I will know in time. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlYmQgIACgkQja8UbcUWM1z34gD+ItqSN1ebUoPCPcFsADNDP5W+ 8wiXxZtkrTflDmNgg/QA/0cFmkbgIJFy9RbHCWckSx/RZijYQBQjzWtvyM6dwqQt =/+PC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:31 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4956206/change-linux-kernel-timer

So, is CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS set in Leap's kernel-default? And if so, does it mean that the various Hz settings are not relevant? OTOH, uname on Leap lists PREEMPT. So maybe the low latency RT timers are enabled? Even my ancient 12.3 -desktop kernel lists PREEMPT. -- Roger Oberholtzer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Per Jessen [10-26-15 03:19]:

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:31 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4956206/change-linux-kernel-timer

So, is CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS set in Leap's kernel-default? And if so, does it mean that the various Hz settings are not relevant?

# zgrep TIMERS /proc/config.gz CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS=y

...

OTOH, uname on Leap lists PREEMPT. So maybe the low latency RT timers are enabled? Even my ancient 12.3 -desktop kernel lists PREEMPT.

# zgrep PREEMP /proc/config.gz CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU=y CONFIG_PREEMPT_NOTIFIERS=y # CONFIG_PREEMPT_NONE is not set # CONFIG_PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY is not set CONFIG_PREEMPT=y CONFIG_PREEMPT_COUNT=y # CONFIG_DEBUG_PREEMPT is not set # CONFIG_PREEMPT_TRACER is not set

The -default kernel didn't used to have PREEMPT, but it was enabled in kernel-default for Leap.

And for Tw. :*) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 26/10/15 18:19, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:31 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4956206/change-linux-kernel-timer So, is CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS set in Leap's kernel-default? And if so, does it mean that the various Hz settings are not relevant? # zgrep TIMERS /proc/config.gz CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS=y

...

OTOH, uname on Leap lists PREEMPT. So maybe the low latency RT timers are enabled? Even my ancient 12.3 -desktop kernel lists PREEMPT. # zgrep PREEMP /proc/config.gz CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU=y CONFIG_PREEMPT_NOTIFIERS=y # CONFIG_PREEMPT_NONE is not set # CONFIG_PREEMPT_VOLUNTARY is not set CONFIG_PREEMPT=y CONFIG_PREEMPT_COUNT=y # CONFIG_DEBUG_PREEMPT is not set # CONFIG_PREEMPT_TRACER is not set

The -default kernel didn't used to have PREEMPT, but it was enabled in kernel-default for Leap.

Could you please give the version of the '-default kernel' you state that didn't have 'PREEMPT' set?

Sure: 3.7.10-1.45-default in openSUSE 12.3 for instance. 3.16.7-21-default in openSUSE 13.2 for instance. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 26/10/15 18:10, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:31 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4956206/change-linux-kernel-timer So, is CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS set in Leap's kernel-default? And if so, does it mean that the various Hz settings are not relevant?

OTOH, uname on Leap lists PREEMPT. So maybe the low latency RT timers are enabled? Even my ancient 12.3 -desktop kernel lists PREEMPT.

If you look at the differences between desktop and default kernels you will find that both TIMERS and PREEMPT are set in both desktop and default versions.

So, two questions remain:

Basil, I thought we went through that already?

1) why was kernel-desktop created? and

It was introduced in openSUSE 11.2, about six years ago. I can only presume it was an attempt to make the desktop more responsive.

2) why not leave kernel-desktop as the default kernel for oS 'Leap of Faith' as it has been for years as the default kernel for openSUSE xx.y?

AFAICT, because it would mean creating a new kernel-desktop as SLE doesn't have one. That's Michael Marek wrote when he proposed the idea. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.7°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 27/10/15 18:38, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 26/10/15 18:10, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

...

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 5:31 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4956206/change-linux-kernel-timer So, is CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS set in Leap's kernel-default? And if so, does it mean that the various Hz settings are not relevant?

OTOH, uname on Leap lists PREEMPT. So maybe the low latency RT timers are enabled? Even my ancient 12.3 -desktop kernel lists PREEMPT. If you look at the differences between desktop and default kernels you will find that both TIMERS and PREEMPT are set in both desktop and default versions.

So, two questions remain: Basil, I thought we went through that already?

Did we? I don't recall.

...

1) why was kernel-desktop created? and It was introduced in openSUSE 11.2, about six years ago. I can only presume it was an attempt to make the desktop more responsive.

Thank you- "....make the desktop more responsive".

...

2) why not leave kernel-desktop as the default kernel for oS 'Leap of Faith' as it has been for years as the default kernel for openSUSE xx.y? AFAICT, because it would mean creating a new kernel-desktop as SLE doesn't have one. That's Michael Marek wrote when he proposed the idea.

Sorry, does not make any sense: "...would mean creating a new kernel-desktop.." because kernel-desktop has been around, as you state, for the past 6 years.

But, " ....as SLE doesn't have one." is a totally different proposition!

I don't give a tinker's cuss what SLE has or does not have. I only worry about openSUSE and what it has and should have.

Well, your/our new openSUSE Leap42 is based on SLE. In SLE, there is no kernel-desktop. To create one would have been more work for little or no reason.

Question: why the heck should openSUSE have to use the kernel-default as the default kernel on installation when SLE could simply adopt kernel-desktop - which has been the default installation kernel for the past 6 years as you say - as its default kernel?

Presumably because SLE is locked down and changing the kernel is simply not an option. Especially when there's no real reason to.

why do not rename kernel-desktop with its present settings as kernel-default?

Because there is no kernel-desktop in SLE, the basis for openSUSE Leap42. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.1°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/26/2015 12:31 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

I also have my doubts about the 1000 -> 250 Hz change. I will know in time.

I wonder myself. In some cases I've noticed the cursor lagging. Not in movement but in changing from the arrow to something else, or the system not responding as fast as it used to when we had "-desktop" when i click, for example, on the scroll-bar arrows. Here's another example. As I compose this the cursor is a "dumbell bar" as it is when over text, but I move it to the area above the text for pull-down menus and there is a lag before it changes to an arrow. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

The only time I had this lag was when baloo was indexing 400000 files. Now that this is settled down, things are not so bad. I was tempted to disable Baloo. I am still using the non-Nvidia driver, so I would expect some slowness from that. My only complaint is that the default cursor when the mouse is over a Konsole is almost invisible. I keep loosing track of where it is when it is over a Konsole. I refuse to think it is age related :) Otherwise things seem similar to 13.1, which was the last release I had on this computer. I will be curious how our data collection system is going to function as it expects a certain responsiveness (but is flexible within reason). But I am still porting it to 64-bits. Soon done with that. Our code was not in such bad shape. Even the funny bits with pointer math where we map XML to/from C data structures. On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 10/26/2015 12:31 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

I also have my doubts about the 1000 -> 250 Hz change. I will know in time.

I wonder myself.

In some cases I've noticed the cursor lagging. Not in movement but in changing from the arrow to something else, or the system not responding as fast as it used to when we had "-desktop" when i click, for example, on the scroll-bar arrows.

Here's another example. As I compose this the cursor is a "dumbell bar" as it is when over text, but I move it to the area above the text for pull-down menus and there is a lag before it changes to an arrow.

I also have a nagging doubt - I haven't really spent enough time working on Leap, but it does seem "slower". I haven't noticed anything in particular, except it seems to take longer for key-repeat to kick in. (might be hardware, it's a different box).

I'm tempted to rebuild the kernel with the old -desktop settings and see if I can tell the difference.

-- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-- Roger Oberholtzer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 27/10/15 05:18, Per Jessen wrote:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 10/26/2015 12:31 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

I also have my doubts about the 1000 -> 250 Hz change. I will know in time. I wonder myself.

In some cases I've noticed the cursor lagging. Not in movement but in changing from the arrow to something else, or the system not responding as fast as it used to when we had "-desktop" when i click, for example, on the scroll-bar arrows.

Here's another example. As I compose this the cursor is a "dumbell bar" as it is when over text, but I move it to the area above the text for pull-down menus and there is a lag before it changes to an arrow. I also have a nagging doubt - I haven't really spent enough time working on Leap, but it does seem "slower". I haven't noticed anything in particular, except it seems to take longer for key-repeat to kick in. (might be hardware, it's a different box).

I'm tempted to rebuild the kernel with the old -desktop settings and see if I can tell the difference.

I had the same idea but as I haven't compiled my own kernel for many years I am reluctant to do so - even if I were to rely on my old reference book because there have been so many changes which may affect the compilation process. If you do compile your own kernel I would appreciate if you would give me the clis to do this. BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2015-10-27 12:28, Per Jessen wrote:

install the kernel-source - zypper in kernel-source cd /usr/src/linux make oldconfig (to get the current config from /proc/config.gz)

I use it is "make cloneconfig"

make menuconfig (to make the changes you want)

You have to change here the "name" of the kernel, or it will replace the installed one. I don't remember the entry in the menuconfig for this, but it should be easy to find. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 2015-11-01 00:44, Basil Chupin wrote:

But I have a question: what about the 8-char alpha-numeric extension that now comes with every kernel? Is it automatically picked up from the *-source?

.config - Linux/x86 3.11.10 Kernel Configuration → General setup   General setup   Arrow keys navigate the menu. <Enter> selects submenus ---> (or empty submenus ----). Highlighted letters are hotkeys.   Pressing <Y> includes, <N> excludes, <M> modularizes features. Press <Esc><Esc> to exit, for Help, for Search.   Legend: [*] built-in [ ] excluded <M> module < > module capable         () Cross-compiler tool prefix     [ ] Compile also drivers which will not load    =======> (-29-desktop) Local version - append to kernel release     [ ] Automatically append version information to the version string     Kernel compression mode (Gzip) --->     ((none)) Default hostname     [*] Support for paging of anonymous memory (swap) ...    ↓(+)    <Select> < Exit > < Help > < Save > < Load >   Do you refer to that? (in menuconfig) If so, the answer is "no". It comes from here: /usr/src/linux/.config CONFIG_CROSS_COMPILE="" # CONFIG_COMPILE_TEST is not set CONFIG_LOCALVERSION="-29-desktop" And if you compile your own kernel, you must change it, or your build will replace the original kernel. If your's fails, you have no backup plan. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 02/11/15 01:27, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On Sunday, 2015-11-01 at 13:41 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2015-11-01 00:44, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

But I have a question: what about the 8-char alpha-numeric extension that now comes with every kernel? Is it automatically picked up from the *-source?

Oh, my. What a text corruption. Editing and resending.

...

.config - Linux/x86 3.11.10 Kernel Configuration → General setup

General setup Arrow keys navigate the menu. <Enter> selects submenus ---> (or empty submenus ----). Highlighted letters are hotkeys. Pressing <Y> includes, <N> excludes, <M> modularizes features. Press <Esc><Esc> to exit, for Help, for Search. Legend: [*] built-in [ ] excluded <M> module < > module capable

() Cross-compiler tool prefix [ ] Compile also drivers which will not load =======> (-29-desktop) Local version - append to kernel release [ ] Automatically append version information to the version string Kernel compression mode (Gzip) ---> ((none)) Default hostname [*] Support for paging of anonymous memory (swap) ... ↓(+)

<Select> < Exit > < Help > < Save > < Load >

Do you refer to that? (in menuconfig) If so, the answer is "no". It comes from here:

/usr/src/linux/.config CONFIG_CROSS_COMPILE="" # CONFIG_COMPILE_TEST is not set CONFIG_LOCALVERSION="-29-desktop"

And if you compile your own kernel, you must change it, or your build will replace the original kernel. If your's fails, you have no backup plan.

I hope I deleted all the strange chars that corrupted the display :-(

Actually, I have absolutely no idea if you have deleted or not any strange chars because what you show above I have not seen before - be it in a muddled state or not a muddle state. So, I am now totally confu-sed :-) . So, how about starting again and letting me know what you were trying to say :-) . BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 10/26/2015 12:31 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

I also have my doubts about the 1000 -> 250 Hz change. I will know in time.

I wonder myself.

In some cases I've noticed the cursor lagging. Not in movement but in changing from the arrow to something else, or the system not responding as fast as it used to when we had "-desktop" when i click, for example, on the scroll-bar arrows.

Here's another example. As I compose this the cursor is a "dumbell bar" as it is when over text, but I move it to the area above the text for pull-down menus and there is a lag before it changes to an arrow.

I also have a nagging doubt - I haven't really spent enough time working on Leap, but it does seem "slower". I haven't noticed anything in particular, except it seems to take longer for key-repeat to kick in. (might be hardware, it's a different box).

I'm tempted to rebuild the kernel with the old -desktop settings and see if I can tell the difference.

I did and I can't. I enabled CONFIG_KERNEL_DESKTOP and CONFIG_HZ_1000 in the new kernel. TBH, I think I would need to spend a lot more time working with this system on alternating kernels to notice any difference. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 20/10/15 09:32, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Alvin Beach [10-19-15 18:30]:

...

I'm running openSUSE 13.2 with the Kernel:stable:standard repo. I've noticed that the kernel-desktop package has been missing for some time now. I checked the OBS and don't see it in the Overview tab either. Has that package been removed? aiui, kernel-desktop has been rolled into kernel-default.

It hasn't been ROLLED into *-default.

kernel-desktop has been REPLACED by kernel-default -- as in _Back to the Future_ replaced.

Apart from a truckload of CONFIG statemets which were *removed* from the *-desktop but which are STILL in the *-default, these are the differences between *-desktop and *-default:

http://susepaste.org/55220715

Of which the only possibly significant changes are in: CONFIG_HZ_250 CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP The latter can be toggled by way of /proc/sys/kernel/sched_autogroup_enabled

Some people running timing-critical applications may be affected by this change - but nobody appears to see fit to make an official announcement about this.

It is a pretty minor change, isn't it? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP

The latter can be toggled by way of /proc/sys/kernel/sched_autogroup_enabled

Why should anyone have to "toggle" anything manually when it is already set and compiled in the kernel-desktop?

Did you know this setting existed before this thread? If yes, please explain how it affects your desktop and why you are concerned with this change. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/10/15 18:18, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP

The latter can be toggled by way of /proc/sys/kernel/sched_autogroup_enabled

Why should anyone have to "toggle" anything manually when it is already set and compiled in the kernel-desktop?

Did you know this setting existed before this thread? If yes, please explain how it affects your desktop and why you are concerned with this change.

I'll answer it this way: I have been using the kernel-desktop since it became available and installed as the default (no pun intended) kernel in openSUSE and I have never had a problem with my system irrespective of which motherboard, CPU or RAM size/speed I was using. So, "If it ain't broke, why fix it?". Because of someone's whim or for some ideological reason? BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/10/15 16:18, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 2:52 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

So, "If it ain't broke, why fix it?". Because of someone's whim or for some ideological reason? If the same effect can be had with -default by setting some options, I think there is no problem. Maintaining one kernel and kernel-dependent packages would be less work.

I would hope that the Leap release notes tell how to get the same effect with -default as one currently has with -desktop. Just dropping support without providing this information will cause lots of confusion.

I have no problems with not having to compile another version of the kernel such as kernel-desktop if the same settings which were, and still are, in kernel-desktop were to be used in latest (for want of a better description) kernel-default. As the 'Differences' I provided in that Suse Paste show, there is no reason why kernel-default should not use the settings used in kernel-desktop. For years since kernel-desktop has been the "default" kernel installed in every release of openSUSE, nobody has complained of any negative effects of having this *-desktop installed, why then replace it with the *-default and its CONFIG settings? But having stated this, I wonder why there is no opposition to having to maintain and compile different kernels such as- kernel-ec2 kernel-pae (NOTE: this was dropped in v4.1.10-1 in 'Leap of Faith' RC1) kernel-pv kernel-vanilla kernel-xen? BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/10/15 17:46, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I have no problems with not having to compile another version of the kernel such as kernel-desktop if the same settings which were, and still are, in kernel-desktop were to be used in latest (for want of a better description) kernel-default.

As the 'Differences' I provided in that Suse Paste show, there is no reason why kernel-default should not use the settings used in kernel-desktop. There is only one possibly significant difference - the kernel timer frequency (CONFIG_HZ_250/CONFIG_HZ_1000). I don't know the significane of this, but there are other timers available.

...

For years since kernel-desktop has been the "default" kernel installed in every release of openSUSE, nobody has complained of any negative effects of having this *-desktop installed, why then replace it with the *-default and its CONFIG settings? Because they're virtually the same?

...

But having stated this, I wonder why there is no opposition to having to maintain and compile different kernels such as-

kernel-ec2 Specific purpose: Amazon Elastic Cloud.

...

kernel-pae (NOTE: this was dropped in v4.1.10-1 in 'Leap of Faith' RC1) Specific purpose: access +4Gb on 32bit-only machines.

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kernel-pv Specific purpose: paravirtualized kernel for Xen DomU.

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kernel-vanilla The name should say it all, but otherwise it's the Linux kernel without open/SUSE patches.

...

kernel-xen? The Xen Dom0 kernel.

I would hazard a guess and say there's no opposition to those because they serve specific purposes. kernel-desktop doesn't seem to serve any purpose.

Then, provided that is if you don't mind me asking, why was the kernel-desktop ever created as the "default" kernel to be installed during every release of openSUSE for the past xx years? BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

It [kernel-desktop] was presumably created to be a better, i.e. faster and more responsive kernel for a desktop user. It's not so long ago either - kernel-desktop turned up in openSUSE 11.2, about six years ago.

They were quite different then: http://files.jessen.ch/kernel-default-desktop.txt I haven't studied the difference in any detail, but my guess is that it was the CONFIG_PREEMT option that made the real difference. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (5.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 21/10/15 18:29, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...

It [kernel-desktop] was presumably created to be a better, i.e. faster and more responsive kernel for a desktop user. It's not so long ago either - kernel-desktop turned up in openSUSE 11.2, about six years ago. They were quite different then:

http://files.jessen.ch/kernel-default-desktop.txt

I haven't studied the difference in any detail, but my guess is that it was the CONFIG_PREEMT option that made the real difference.

Well, according to my visual check (but what do I know about what I am looking for?) the PREEMPT was set to 'y' even in the 2.6.x kernel you give details of in your post.

It was set to 'y' in kernel-desktop, yes, but not in kernel-default. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

On 21/10/15 18:17, Per Jessen wrote:

...

I guess it was only the default on desktop systems, but I'd have to double-check what goes in the minimum text-only pattern. It was presumably created to be a better, i.e. faster and more responsive kernel for a desktop user. It's not so long ago either - kernel-desktop turned up in openSUSE 11.2, about six years ago.

In an earlier post you mention that the change from desktop to default was because SLE uses kernel-default.

The question which follows from what you wrote above is: don't SLE users use workstations the same as those used by you and me

Quite likely.

and which come from openSUSE to begin with?

Uh, what does that mean? What comes from openSUSE to begin with?

The question which then follows is: why aren't the SLE users allowed the enjoyment of using a faster responsive system than they now have

Dunno, maybe the kernel-desktop didn't actually produce a faster, more response system in the end. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.5°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 10:38, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 21/10/15 18:17, Per Jessen wrote:

...

I guess it was only the default on desktop systems, but I'd have to double-check what goes in the minimum text-only pattern. It was presumably created to be a better, i.e. faster and more responsive kernel for a desktop user. It's not so long ago either - kernel-desktop turned up in openSUSE 11.2, about six years ago.

In an earlier post you mention that the change from desktop to default was because SLE uses kernel-default.

The question which follows from what you wrote above is: don't SLE users use workstations the same as those used by you and me

Quite likely.

...

and which come from openSUSE to begin with?

Uh, what does that mean? What comes from openSUSE to begin with?

...

The question which then follows is: why aren't the SLE users allowed the enjoyment of using a faster responsive system than they now have

Dunno, maybe the kernel-desktop didn't actually produce a faster, more response system in the end.

It did, at least at the starting time. During the early days of kernel 2.6, the scheduling wasn't as nice and up to the task as it is today. 'Real-time' or near real-time scheduling just did not work outside the *-rt kernels. And the -rt kernels in turn wheren't nice to the desktop users. Thus case the 1000Hz timers and the PREEMPT settings, but at the beginning these played not nice with many server apps. So, no 'default' for these. In the start of the *-desktop kernels with 1000Hz and PREEMPT setting, the ones who profited the most where audio and video apps. Skype on linux whould have been impossible without these settings, at least at the time it started (-- before Android was born). Same with Audio workstations. LADSPA needed near realtime. Googles work on Android, and the push-back of some of this code into the public kernel changed the situation. Google wanted tickless and realtime, and worked hard to make it possible, and public. So, most of what caused the seperation of -desktop from -default is already in 'default-on' and thus in default. Running heavy audio-apps is possible on prior -default and -vanilla kernels due to the realtime-daemon and realtime privileges. Skype works on SLED 12 (-default kernel). Enabling preemptive scheduling for -default kernels however is a nice gesture to make shure that there are very little differences in daily usage remaining. Remaining things like 'mouse/pointer' lag point to deeper troubles, that have been 'painted over' by a higher forced-by-timer rate of scheduling. Here, isolating the app that causes this should be the task, not crying for more ticks-per-second. I'm using -default since OSS 12.3 (kernel 3.7). - Yamaban -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/27/2015 09:03 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

ps -ef | grep anton | grep kde | more anton 3460 3334 0 Oct24 00:00:00 /bin/sh /usr/bin/startkde --failsafe ......

It turned out that for some unknown reason the greeter had set to 'failsafe'. I'm perplexed as to how that happend, but its not cleared up. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2015-10-27 10:25, Basil Chupin wrote:

The question which follows from what you wrote above is: don't SLE users use workstations the same as those used by you and me and which come

No - they use SLED instead :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 20/10/15 18:26, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 20/10/15 17:19, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 20/10/15 09:32, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Alvin Beach [10-19-15 18:30]:

...

I'm running openSUSE 13.2 with the Kernel:stable:standard repo. I've noticed that the kernel-desktop package has been missing for some time now. I checked the OBS and don't see it in the Overview tab either. Has that package been removed? aiui, kernel-desktop has been rolled into kernel-default. It hasn't been ROLLED into *-default.

kernel-desktop has been REPLACED by kernel-default -- as in _Back to the Future_ replaced.

Apart from a truckload of CONFIG statemets which were *removed* from the *-desktop but which are STILL in the *-default, these are the differences between *-desktop and *-default:

http://susepaste.org/55220715 Of which the only possibly significant changes are in:

CONFIG_HZ_250 CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP

The latter can be toggled by way of /proc/sys/kernel/sched_autogroup_enabled Why should anyone have to "toggle" anything manually when it is already set and compiled in the kernel-desktop? Basil, that one is easy - because kernel-desktop is gone :-) The sensible thing would be to add a line to /etc/sysctl.conf.

...

...

Some people running timing-critical applications may be affected by this change - but nobody appears to see fit to make an official announcement about this. It is a pretty minor change, isn't it? Do you subscribe to the list 'opensuse-kernel'? If you do, or do not, have a look at the exchange of posts in the thread, "Merging kernel-desktop back to kernel-default (fate #319416)", held last month (September). I'd rather just have your two-line summary, please. It seems to be only about CONFIG_HZ_250 ?

I would prefer it if you read the thread yourself and came to your own conclusions - you may interpret things differently. BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/10/15 17:13, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 20/10/15 18:26, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 20/10/15 17:19, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 20/10/15 09:32, Patrick Shanahan wrote: > * Alvin Beach [10-19-15 18:30]: >> I'm running openSUSE 13.2 with the Kernel:stable:standard repo. >> I've noticed that the kernel-desktop package has been missing >> for some time >> now. I checked the OBS and don't see it in the Overview tab >> either. Has that package been removed? > aiui, kernel-desktop has been rolled into kernel-default. It hasn't been ROLLED into *-default.

kernel-desktop has been REPLACED by kernel-default -- as in _Back to the Future_ replaced.

Apart from a truckload of CONFIG statemets which were *removed* from the *-desktop but which are STILL in the *-default, these are the differences between *-desktop and *-default:

http://susepaste.org/55220715 Of which the only possibly significant changes are in:

CONFIG_HZ_250 CONFIG_SCHED_AUTOGROUP

The latter can be toggled by way of /proc/sys/kernel/sched_autogroup_enabled Why should anyone have to "toggle" anything manually when it is already set and compiled in the kernel-desktop? Basil, that one is easy - because kernel-desktop is gone :-) The sensible thing would be to add a line to /etc/sysctl.conf.

...

...

Some people running timing-critical applications may be affected by this change - but nobody appears to see fit to make an official announcement about this. It is a pretty minor change, isn't it? Do you subscribe to the list 'opensuse-kernel'? If you do, or do not, have a look at the exchange of posts in the thread, "Merging kernel-desktop back to kernel-default (fate #319416)", held last month (September). I'd rather just have your two-line summary, please. It seems to be only about CONFIG_HZ_250 ? I would prefer it if you read the thread yourself and came to your own conclusions - you may interpret things differently. I thought you had a specific issue with kernel-default, something more significant than CONFIG_HZ_250 / CONFIG_HZ_1000. For the moment, I have kernel-default running on a test desktop and have seen no issues. It's unlikely that I'll migrate any desktops to Leap for a year or two, so any latent issues will surely have popped up by then :-)

I really do wish that you would read that thread yourself and make your own conclusions. I made my conclusions when I read that thread, and participated in a small way in it. But I do not want in any way for people to think that I am throwing aspersions on anybody's efforts re this matter and which is why I am asking you to read that thread for yourself. I particularly point out your comment above, "....so any latent issues will surely have popped up by then :-)". BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2015-10-21 10:29, Per Jessen wrote:

Okay, I actually went and had a look:

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kernel/2015-09/msg00006.html

It seems to me that Michael Marek proposed to skip kernel-desktop primarily to not have to create one for Leap (as SLE doesn't have one). As the differences are minimal, using kernel-default instead sounds good to me. Martin Konold seems to have an issue with disabling preemption on the desktop, which makes sense, so CONFIG_PREEMPT=y is kept.

I wonder what SLED uses? I'd guess it has one kernel offered, not two, but perhaps it has similar adjustments than the openSUSE -desktop kernel. It would be interesting to compare the configs of the SLES and SLED kernels, and find out the differences, if any. :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 21/10/15 19:29, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

...

...

Some people running timing-critical applications may be affected by this change - but nobody appears to see fit to make an official announcement about this. It is a pretty minor change, isn't it? Do you subscribe to the list 'opensuse-kernel'? If you do, or do not, have a look at the exchange of posts in the thread, "Merging kernel-desktop back to kernel-default (fate #319416)", held last month (September). I'd rather just have your two-line summary, please. It seems to be only about CONFIG_HZ_250 ? I would prefer it if you read the thread yourself and came to your own conclusions - you may interpret things differently. Okay, I actually went and had a look:

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kernel/2015-09/msg00006.html

It seems to me that Michael Marek proposed to skip kernel-desktop primarily to not have to create one for Leap (as SLE doesn't have one). As the differences are minimal, using kernel-default instead sounds good to me. Martin Konold seems to have an issue with disabling preemption on the desktop, which makes sense, so CONFIG_PREEMPT=y is kept.

Then why the comments that some people may notice the change (by the behaviour of their system) and - by implication - let's keep quiet about the change and the "plebs" may not notice the change? This is what I am finding exasperating: not letting people know about the change. If you have nothing to hide then why hide the change? However, the attitude expressed by those who made the decision appears to me to be "bugger the openSUSE users, let them find out for themselves - if they are not dim enough to find out." BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Basil Chupin [01-01-70 12:34]:

On 20/10/15 09:32, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Alvin Beach [10-19-15 18:30]:

...

I'm running openSUSE 13.2 with the Kernel:stable:standard repo. I've noticed that the kernel-desktop package has been missing for some time now. I checked the OBS and don't see it in the Overview tab either. Has that package been removed? aiui, kernel-desktop has been rolled into kernel-default.

It hasn't been ROLLED into *-default.

kernel-desktop has been REPLACED by kernel-default -- as in _Back to the Future_ replaced.

Apart from a truckload of CONFIG statemets which were *removed* from the *-desktop but which are STILL in the *-default, these are the differences between *-desktop and *-default:

http://susepaste.org/55220715

Some people running timing-critical applications may be affected by this change - but nobody appears to see fit to make an official announcement about this.

If you are now trialling 'Leap of Faith' then it already contains the kernel-default (4.1.10-1.1).

You must have missed it. Rolled into is the same as merged as I see it. re: The few noteworthy updates where: ================================= * Linux Kernel 4.2.3. The merge of the -desktop flavor into the -default flavor is now reality. You setup will replace the kernel-desktop package(s) with kernel-default. One side effect is that ALL kernel-desktop versions are removed, not only the latest version. You can avoid this with a zypper lock (zypper al kernel-desktop) see: Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:30:28 +0200 From: Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: [opensuse-factory] Tumbleweed – Review of the week 2015/43 But, zypper lock did not retain the previous kernels. Zypper refused to install kernel-default w/o removing the kernel-desktop installs. I did not try --force -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 25/10/15 02:14, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Basil Chupin [01-01-70 12:34]:

...

On 20/10/15 09:32, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Alvin Beach [10-19-15 18:30]:

...

I'm running openSUSE 13.2 with the Kernel:stable:standard repo. I've noticed that the kernel-desktop package has been missing for some time now. I checked the OBS and don't see it in the Overview tab either. Has that package been removed? aiui, kernel-desktop has been rolled into kernel-default. It hasn't been ROLLED into *-default.

kernel-desktop has been REPLACED by kernel-default -- as in _Back to the Future_ replaced.

Apart from a truckload of CONFIG statemets which were *removed* from the *-desktop but which are STILL in the *-default, these are the differences between *-desktop and *-default:

http://susepaste.org/55220715

Some people running timing-critical applications may be affected by this change - but nobody appears to see fit to make an official announcement about this.

If you are now trialling 'Leap of Faith' then it already contains the kernel-default (4.1.10-1.1). You must have missed it. Rolled into is the same as merged as I see it.

Patrick, 'merge' is defined as- "verb (used with object), merged, merging. 1. to cause to combine or coalesce; unite. 2. to combine, blend, or unite gradually so as to blur the individuality or individual identity of: They voted to merge the two branch offices into a single unit." http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/merge?s=t and 'rolled' into one as- "If someone or something has several ​qualities ​rolled into one, the ​ person or thing has all of those ​qualities..." https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/rolled-into-one kernel-desktop was NOT 'merged' or 'rolled into' anything. It was REPLACED by kernel-default. What is stated below about "the merge" is not kosher - to be polite.

re: The few noteworthy updates where: ================================= * Linux Kernel 4.2.3. The merge of the -desktop flavor into the -default flavor is now reality. You setup will replace the kernel-desktop package(s) with kernel-default. One side effect is that ALL kernel-desktop versions are removed, not only the latest version. You can avoid this with a zypper lock (zypper al kernel-desktop)

see: Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:30:28 +0200 From: Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: [opensuse-factory] Tumbleweed � Review of the week 2015/43

But, zypper lock did not retain the previous kernels. Zypper refused to install kernel-default w/o removing the kernel-desktop installs. I did not try --force

BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org