[opensuse] installing optimized packages like Gentoo
Hi everybody, Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications. I was wondering if I can install optimized packages with zypper, something like from source, just like Gentoo Humbly, Carlos -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Le 02/10/2011 19:37, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay a écrit :
Hi everybody,
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized
automatically? emrge don't optimize anything if not user optimized AFAIK
I was wondering if I can install optimized packages with zypper, something like from source, just like Gentoo
you can certainly install the source (add the source repos) and compile, but you have to optimize yourself. That said what optimization are you aware of? I see only the kernel that can be really optimized, and the benefit nowaday is not obvious (except in special environment) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay said the following on 10/02/2011 01:37 PM:
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
Optimized? For what? Your "optimal" may be my "perverse and unmanageable". Automatically? So it can read the user's mind? Each and every user of the system and their differing needs, all with no interaction? Extreme Performance? You mean better than Windows? HAHAHA! Machine Specification? So it can read and possibly reset the BIOS settings? It strikes me that someone with a bit of experience can read the manuals and documentation, set up the bios, choose the file system and disk layout (and possibly hardware parameters) and do all this and learn a lot along the way, most noticeably that a) the optimization curve is pretty flat so long as you don't do anything crippling or stupid, given any particular hardware (e.g. a laptop is very much 'what you get' but some desktops you can fiddle with hardware and some Big Iron you can do lots of things with like add lots of memory, which you can't on a laptop) b) you can get into all sorts of petty arguments on the mailing lists about how to optimize ... or not. Unless your needs are extreme[1] (you work at CERN and need picosecond sampling and/or are performing FFT-like transformation on petabytes of information) I'm not sure this is worth the sweat. For most of us, buying a newer, faster machine, disk, memory, faster memory, more memory, faster disk, more memory, ... will do a lot more. To massively misquote Harry, do you have a lot of idle time on your hands, "punk"? Because if you work out the value of your time vs the cost of hardware, memory, disk, even a new CPU is cheap. My great regret is that David Cheriton's "V System" was never developed. That way I could spread one process, one application and its subroutines (read threads) massively parallel across all those old machines in my basement that go back decades. Heck, David even had it so that the device drivers didn't have to run on the same machine as the hardware! Given that, we could just add more boxes in a way that is difficult even with RAID and disk. Now that would be an "automatically optimized" way of offering "extreme performance according to machine specifications". Dream on, Anton, Dream on! [1] Or you are writing a thesis on it. -- out of memory we wish to hold the whole sky but we never will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 10:37:18AM -0700, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Hi everybody,
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
I was wondering if I can install optimized packages with zypper, something like from source, just like Gentoo
The open buildservice allows you to create a forked project of a distributon and rebuild selected packages with optimization changes. That can then be added as repo to your system. (project config adjustments for compiler flags e.g.) This generic way is more complicated than what Gentoo does right now, but could surely be simplified, or spun off for specific optimizations. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Marcus Meissner said the following on 10/02/2011 03:59 PM:
On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 10:37:18AM -0700, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Hi everybody,
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
I was wondering if I can install optimized packages with zypper, something like from source, just like Gentoo
The open buildservice allows you to create a forked project of a distributon and rebuild selected packages with optimization changes. That can then be added as repo to your system.
There are an immense number of these, along with custom builds of other distributions. Try http://software.opensuse.org/search and you might find one of them.
This generic way is more complicated than what Gentoo does right now, but could surely be simplified, or spun off for specific optimizations.
Right now the threshold is above what I'm willing to venture for, but I'm hoping someone will do a build of some of the components of KDE that are not dependent on Nepomuk, or perhaps take the "compiz-addons" package and split it into the parts that need nepomuk and the parts that don't. Any takers? -- As far as I know, we have never had an undetected error. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hello, On Sun, 02 Oct 2011, Anton Aylward wrote:
Marcus Meissner said the following on 10/02/2011 03:59 PM:
On Sun, Oct 02, 2011 at 10:37:18AM -0700, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
I was wondering if I can install optimized packages with zypper, something like from source, just like Gentoo
The software usually does not run (revelantly) faster, but you might get rid of some dependencies. But, mind you, some stuff I don't want needs an overlay, USE flags dont suffice on gentoo ...
The open buildservice allows you to create a forked project of a distributon and rebuild selected packages with optimization changes. That can then be added as repo to your system. [..] This generic way is more complicated than what Gentoo does right now, but could surely be simplified, or spun off for specific optimizations.
Right now the threshold is above what I'm willing to venture for, but I'm hoping someone will do a build of some of the components of KDE that are not dependent on Nepomuk, or perhaps take the "compiz-addons" package and split it into the parts that need nepomuk and the parts that don't.
Oh, and leave out the *avahi* stuff too.
Any takers?
You've just volunteered. -dnh -- "What, you don't think "insmod emacs" is a good idea?" -- Joe Moore -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On 10/02/2011 07:37 PM, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Hi everybody,
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
I was wondering if I can install optimized packages with zypper, something like from source, just like Gentoo
It does not make sense to optimize each and every binary that way, just the timeconsuming ones. Some packages, like the C library glibc, have optimized routines for different cpus and choose the right routine based on cpu. Instead of doing the Gentoo approach, I suggest to monitor your system, figure out the bottlenecks and find ways to improve those routines - that will help everybody, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2011-10-02 at 10:37 -0700, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Hi everybody,
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
"extreme performance" - Bogus. Show me the numbers.
I was wondering if I can install optimized packages with zypper, something like from source, just like Gentoo
You can rebuild source packages; probably easier to create your own repo on OBS and subscribe to that than to do it locally. There you can edit the .spec files and throw in as many -O2 directives as you want. But it won't make a meaningful difference. If you get 2% performance bump by playing with compiler options then you are just lucky. All that optimization stuff is just noise. Gentoo's build-everything optimized is pointless make-work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Sunday 02 Oct 2011 10:37:18 Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
*chuckle vision engaged* must.... not... post... http://funroll.... nooooo... my fingers! they have a life of their own.... http://funroll-loops.info/ Damnit! now _everyone_ is going to be --omg-optimized -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 11 October 2011 01:52:42 am Graham Anderson wrote:
On Sunday 02 Oct 2011 10:37:18 Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
*chuckle vision engaged*
must.... not... post... http://funroll.... nooooo... my fingers! they have a life of their own....
Damnit! now _everyone_ is going to be --omg-optimized
This is really hillarious:) allready sent the link to 2 of my kids, one a racer of street cars on race tracks and remote linucs observer, the other a serious hardware geek (he designs and builds his own sheit) and windoze gamer who found a job as a unix admin at a prestigious university, if they have not heard of this they now know about it:))) now i am debating weather i shoul also send it to son #1, he is a MAJOR unix dude, but he hates cars.... THANX AGAIN FOR THE LINK:) d -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 12 October 2011 02:09:16 pm kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:
On Tuesday 11 October 2011 01:52:42 am Graham Anderson wrote:
On Sunday 02 Oct 2011 10:37:18 Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
*chuckle vision engaged*
must.... not... post... http://funroll.... nooooo... my fingers! they have a life of their own....
Damnit! now _everyone_ is going to be --omg-optimized
This is really hillarious:) allready sent the link to 2 of my kids, one a racer of street cars on race tracks and remote linucs observer, the other a serious hardware geek (he designs and builds his own sheit) and windoze gamer who found a job as a unix admin at a prestigious university, if they have not heard of this they now know about it:))) now i am debating weather i shoul also send it to son #1, he is a MAJOR unix dude, but he hates cars....
THANX AGAIN FOR THE LINK:)
d woa, sorry about this folx. this email was sent only to the poster, from kmail 1.9.10 on suse 11.1, AFTER i had received a confirmation of my "unsubscription" to the opensuse general forum. must talk to the administrator. d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 02/10/11 14:37, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Hi everybody,
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
There is no such magical thing, although some very specific programs like multimedia libraries may run faster with -O3 (and the newer -Ofast) other programs do in fact run slower or produce huge bloated binaries, other optimizations are unsafe and produce broken code. In case you want to help to make binaries faster, the road ahead is awfully complicated, but Im gonna give you some hints on what to look for to start - There are many packages that for historical reasons or old bugs are built with -fno-strict-aliasing, it is needed that someone looks into them to see if such flag is really needed nowdays. - There are other packages that are compiled with less than standard optimization due to old bugs in the compiler, those need to be verified as well. - If you want faster application load times, there are a _lot_ of C and C++ libraries that may be able to load faster if someone takes the time to add "visibility" support to them see: http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Visibility for C++ libraries, you might just pass -fvisibility-inlines-hidden to the compiler and then test its functionality. - If you have debugging skills, you can profile particular software in order to find bottlenecks, this particular task is very hard and sometimes require profound knowledge of the language being used as well of the compiler/interpreter/OS. good luck :-D Cheers. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
At Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:40:00 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 02/10/11 14:37, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Hi everybody,
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
There is no such magical thing, although some very specific programs like multimedia libraries may run faster with -O3 (and the newer -Ofast) other programs do in fact run slower or produce huge bloated binaries, other optimizations are unsafe and produce broken code.
The architecture option might be a great performance improvement in some cases, especially when SIMD is effective. If it's a library, the architecture-optimized version can be placed additionally in the sub-directory of HWCAP, such as /usr/lib/sse3/. Then ld.so will pick up automatically per running hwcap. So, in theory, we can provide the multiple binaries per arch-optimization base in a single package. But I don't know whether this would be so big gain. There are cases that the arch-optimization really slows down, too. Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
On 13/10/11 02:52, Takashi Iwai wrote:
At Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:40:00 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 02/10/11 14:37, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Hi everybody,
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
There is no such magical thing, although some very specific programs like multimedia libraries may run faster with -O3 (and the newer -Ofast) other programs do in fact run slower or produce huge bloated binaries, other optimizations are unsafe and produce broken code.
The architecture option might be a great performance improvement in some cases, especially when SIMD is effective.
If it's a library, the architecture-optimized version can be placed additionally in the sub-directory of HWCAP, such as /usr/lib/sse3/. Then ld.so will pick up automatically per running hwcap.
Yeah that's one option, the other is using ifunc and/or gcc attribute target... That HWCAP thing may be interesting for some selected libraries, do you know where is the FM ? have found no manpage and no authoritative information out there.. :( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
At Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:59:55 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 13/10/11 02:52, Takashi Iwai wrote:
At Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:40:00 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
On 02/10/11 14:37, Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay wrote:
Hi everybody,
Gentoo linux is an special distro that can be automatically optimized and it offers an extreme performance according to machine specifications.
There is no such magical thing, although some very specific programs like multimedia libraries may run faster with -O3 (and the newer -Ofast) other programs do in fact run slower or produce huge bloated binaries, other optimizations are unsafe and produce broken code.
The architecture option might be a great performance improvement in some cases, especially when SIMD is effective.
If it's a library, the architecture-optimized version can be placed additionally in the sub-directory of HWCAP, such as /usr/lib/sse3/. Then ld.so will pick up automatically per running hwcap.
Yeah that's one option, the other is using ifunc and/or gcc attribute target...
That HWCAP thing may be interesting for some selected libraries, do you know where is the FM ? have found no manpage and no authoritative information out there.. :(
Sorry, I also have no good info source. I've read it a couple of years ago in some book. But this implies that the method is hackish ;) Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Andreas Jaeger -
Anton Aylward -
Carlos Alberto Gueto Tettay -
Cristian Rodríguez -
David Haller -
Graham Anderson -
jdd -
kanenas＠hawaii.rr.com -
Marcus Meissner -
Takashi Iwai