Am Freitag, 10. März 2006 08:52 schrieb Sven Burmeister:

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I see the SUSE name has returned. Is KDE available? Otherwise I would not call it a return.

Sure, but why return? KDE was always available on business desktop product. MfG, Stephan

On 10/03/06, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Hi!

Am Freitag, 10. März 2006 10:07 schrieb Stephan Binner:

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Is KDE available? Otherwise I would not call it a return.

Sure, but why return? KDE was always available on business desktop product.

All screenshots I see, e.g. http://www.golem.de/0603/43914.html, and saw of the NLD 9 just show Gnome. Of course KDE might still be available, but why is it not shown then? If NLD9 had Gnome as default, where is the desktop-product that has KDE as default?

Sven

I've heard (read) that no desktop is specifically defaulted now. You have explicitly choose you desktop. Plus, SuSE will be back when they decide to put both of the proper manuals back in hard format :-))))) I had to get that in. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Xmas may be over but, PLEASE DON'T drink and drive you'll make it to the next one that way. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Friday 10 March 2006 13:53, Sven Burmeister wrote:

If you are talking about SuSE Linux, that's true. But I was referring to Novell Linux Desktop and SuSE Linux Desktop which I only find screenshots showing Gnome.

So the question remains, if Gnome is not default, or the only desktop for those two products, why are there no screenshots of KDE around? The "slidshow" on Novell's website for NLD 9 only shows Gnome and its apps.

Gnome is the default, but KDE is provided, maintained and supported -- Certified: Yes. Certifiable: of course! jabberID: anders@rydsbo.net

On Saturday 11 March 2006 06:35, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

On 10/03/06 06:53, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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<snip> So the question remains, if Gnome is not default, or the only desktop for those two products, why are there no screenshots of KDE around? The "slidshow" on Novell's website for NLD 9 only shows Gnome and its apps.

So what?

SUSE has historically been a KDE distro, and from what I've read a fairly large majority of SUSE customers prefer KDE. In the last couple of years, Novell has put far more effort into the Gnome environment. This makes many people unhappy, as there are many valid reasons (perhaps not for you) why Gnome is a poor substitute for KDE. I myself have bought every SUSE box since 7.3 for use at work and home, but starting now I will just download OpenSUSE. If you don't see the elimination of KDE from the Novell marketing and technology investment as a change worthy of discussion, well..."so what".

On Saturday 11 March 2006 14:52, Sven Burmeister wrote:

So introducing NLD made sense to me, as it is a new name and hence not linked to KDE or Gnome. Yet using SuSE for a product with Gnome as default does not make sense to me, from a marketing perspective.

It is the *default*. Getting KDE means clicking one extra time during the installation, nothing more. How hard is that? And in beta 7, KDE is quite a nice desktop installation Novell bought two companies, SUSE and Ximian. SUSE makes the technology, Ximian makes the desktop. I prefer KDE as well, but I don't think it's so strange that Ximian has been put in charge of the default desktop effort -- Certified: Yes. Certifiable: of course! jabberID: anders@rydsbo.net

On Saturday 11 March 2006 06:01 am, Ken Schneider wrote: <snip>

For the sake of all of the people using metered dial up connections (there are still quite a few on this list) can this be moved to the OT list?

Why? It is already on the On Topic list. -- kai - www.perfectreign.com www.livebeans.com - the new NetBeans community 43...for those who require slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything.

Peter Onion wrote:

On Sat, 2006-03-11 at 14:52 +0100, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Hi!

Am Samstag, 11. März 2006 13:17 schrieb Mike:

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SUSE has historically been a KDE distro, and from what I've read a fairly large majority of SUSE customers prefer KDE.

What you've seen is that the KDE users just shout and rant more than the Gnome users.

I've been using Gnome on SUSE since 5.X and I've never complained once about KDE being provided (as default or otherwise) by SuSE.

Maybe it's because SUSE users know what's best and Gnome users don't. ;-)

Hi! Am Samstag, 11. März 2006 15:49 schrieb Peter Onion:

What you've seen is that the KDE users just shout and rant more than the Gnome users.

Have you seen me saying anything about Gnome being inferior, or its users having any kind of bad habits? I did not, yet you brought that up and tell me that KDE users shout and rant more. So what does this tell about you?

I've been using Gnome on SUSE since 5.X and I've never complained once about KDE being provided (as default or otherwise) by SuSE.

Ok, so if SuSE was KDE focused from the beginning and you chose it anyway, you accepted the KDE-focus. Yet for KDE users it is the other way around. They chose SuSE because of the KDE-focus and now that changes. You complaining would have been like a KDE user complaining to Redhat or ubuntu, that they use Gnome by default and I bet Gnome users on Redhat or ubuntu would ask questions, if they changed their default DE to KDE, don't you think? Sven

Hi! Am Samstag, 11. März 2006 23:32 schrieb Anders Johansson:

On Saturday 11 March 2006 23:12, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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You complaining would have been like a KDE user complaining to Redhat or ubuntu, that they use Gnome by default and I bet Gnome users on Redhat or ubuntu would ask questions, if they changed their default DE to KDE, don't you think?

They did, actually. The results were kubuntu and Mandrake, respectively

Ok, there is ubuntu in the name of kubuntu, yet mandrake does not have redhat in it. As I said, I would have understood the marketing with Gnome being default for NLD. It is just the SuSE <-> Gnome-default link that I do not see - unless I look at the developers that are in a high position at Novell/SuSE. Sven

Kevanf1 wrote:

On 11/03/06, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Ok, there is ubuntu in the name of kubuntu, yet mandrake does not have redhat in it. I think Anders was referring to the fact that Mandrake was, historically, a fork of Red Hat which had the KDE desktop as the default. Mandrake, now Mandriva of course, did indeed start with Red Hat as its base :-) It is possibly far removed from it now of course just as SuSE is far, far removed from its origin of Slackware.

Yggdrasil forever! ;-)

Hi! Am Sonntag, 12. März 2006 10:05 schrieb David Wright:

I've been installing the 10.1 Beta's on a regular basis, and, like 10.0, there is no default desktop environment selected with SUSE Linux, you have to specify which one you want, KDE, Gnome, other or text console only...

I know, we were talking about the NLD which was renamed to SuSE Linux Desktop and has Gnome as default.

If you look at the corporate desktop, Gnome seems to be the default standard many companies look to, and has been said, Novell have bought a company that does work under Gnome, so it was foreseeable that Gnome would come more to the foreground than before.

There was Redhat and mandrake as a fork with different DE as default. There was Slackware and Suse as a fork. So the fork was not "sold" with the name of the original. This is all I am talking about. Who would say that it would make sense to have Redhat which obviously has a focus on Gnome and then create Redhat Desktop Linux with a focus on KDE?

From what has been said and what I have observed, it seems like both will be treated equally for the foreseeable future, as opposed to Gnome being the poor cousing. And as the enterprise customers often concentrate on Gnome, it makes some sense that some of the tools are moved to the gtk libraries...

Although setting one of the two as default is not treating them equally, I still do not see how it makes sense to use a name bound to KDE for a Gnome-defaulted fork, especially since it had already it's new name, i.e. Novell Linux Desktop. Apparently that name was not good enough to sell the product, why would one change a well selling product name. Sven

On Sat, 2006-03-11 at 23:12 +0100, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Hi!

Am Samstag, 11. März 2006 15:49 schrieb Peter Onion:

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What you've seen is that the KDE users just shout and rant more than the Gnome users.

Have you seen me saying anything about Gnome being inferior,

Since most people think Gnome is an ugly piece of manure, I'm sure

The Friday 2006-03-10 at 07:57 -0800, kai wrote: they'll be

switching ASAP.

See what I mean ? Peter

On Saturday 11 March 2006 04:17 am, Mike wrote:

On Saturday 11 March 2006 06:35, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

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On 10/03/06 06:53, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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<snip> So the question remains, if Gnome is not default, or the only desktop for those two products, why are there no screenshots of KDE around? The "slidshow" on Novell's website for NLD 9 only shows Gnome and its apps.

So what?

SUSE has historically been a KDE distro, and from what I've read a fairly large majority of SUSE customers prefer KDE. In the last couple of years, Novell has put far more effort into the Gnome environment. This makes many people unhappy, as there are many valid reasons (perhaps not for you) why Gnome is a poor substitute for KDE. I myself have bought every SUSE box since 7.3 for use at work and home, but starting now I will just download OpenSUSE.

I can imagine that sentiment goes with many. I - for one - thoroughly agree that KDE is the superior option. In addition, I cannot overcome the idea that the Gnome group doesn't follow the open source model, nearly as well as Qt does.

If you don't see the elimination of KDE from the Novell marketing and technology investment as a change worthy of discussion, well..."so what".

Agreed! I think it is a huge issue that should be discussed. If - as I suspect - Novell decides to make a permanant change to the sup-par Gnome platform and the less-than-stellar GTK+ toolkit, which - as I just mentioned -doesn't follow the GPL, then we should make our voices heard loud and clear. SuSE/SUSE the best distribution I've run across with a very good set of tools and options for anyone from a power user to a newbie like me. I would hate to see it spiral down into a Gnome-centric black hole. -- kai - www.perfectreign.com www.livebeans.com - the new NetBeans community 43...for those who require slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything.

Hi! I was a few seconds too quick with the other mail. :) Am Freitag, 10. März 2006 13:48 schrieb Stephan Binner:

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where is the desktop-product that has KDE as default?

Why must be there a different product for it?

Well, either one thinks, KDE and Gnome are "equal", then there cannot be a default, or maybe a random one. Or you supply two products with different defaults. If one thinks that one of them is better, then it has to be set as default. How else would you decide to set the default? However, if one sets a default, one has to re-asses it with every release, so one might have altering defaults, which is not really less confusing then having none. Is Novell going to re-asses the default on every release? Sven

Hello! Am Freitag, 10. März 2006 14:32 schrieb Adam Tauno Williams:

NLD is a Novell product, they are going to do research and make a decision. This has to happen. As a system administrator in a shop using both Open Source and proprietary solutions I can't begin to explain how e-x-h-a-u-s-t-i-n-g this kind of 'debate' (I use the term loosely) is. Companies want *PRODUCTS* not *PROJECTS*, companies don't give a &*@^*&@ about projects. Companies need defined solutions to problems, which is the point of all this technology in the first place. If you don't like product A then you go find and buy product B. You can use either GNOME or KDE, or several other, desktops on OpenSUSE (which is really more of a project then a product). A company isn't going to give it's users a desktop choice (not any SANE company at least) so why would a desktop PRODUCT need to include multiple desktops (even if NLD does)? If you don't like a desktop product you go and find another one.

So? I was not asking the question which one is best, or why I would like to see any of the two as default. I just want to have an answer, whether Novell has decided that Gnome is better for their desktop-product. Whatever better means for them. If the decision was made, one should be able to state it clearly.

...

so one might have altering defaults, which is not really less confusing then having none. Is Novell going to re-asses the default on every release?

A sure way to sink the company.

Oh, of course, the best companies are those that make a decision once and do not re-asses. Very convincing! So Novell will never ever have KDE as default again, no matter how good it becomes. Yep, makes sense. Sven

Hello! Am Freitag, 10. März 2006 15:29 schrieb Adam Tauno Williams:

The product isn't a clear enough statement? Do I cask Kia why my car has the dashboard laid out in a certain way? Really, shouldn't they be able to explain the reasons to me clearly? No. If it doesn't work for me - I buy a different car.

Unfortunately, you are right.

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Oh, of course, the best companies are those that make a decision once and do not re-asses. Very convincing! So Novell will never ever have KDE as default again, no matter how good it becomes. Yep, makes sense.

Yes, it does - if it is true. You can't sell a bunch of product and then turn it all around on your customers.

So? Define bunch. Having a choice while installing, which in companies users do not do themselves anyway, is a choice and not a bunch of choices that confuses. But ok, I'll give up. SuSE desktop has become a Gnome centered product. If they stuck with the decisions once made, they would have left KDE as default, since SuSE was KDE centered before. And, since it does not make sense to put a lot of effort into two projects, the default will get most and the alternative less (and less). Sven

On Friday, March 10, 2006 @ 6:48 AM, Stephan Binner wrote:

On Friday, 10. March 2006 11:10, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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KDE was always available on business desktop product. All screenshots I see, e.g. http://www.golem.de/0603/43914.html, and saw of the NLD 9 just show Gnome. Of course KDE might still be available, but why

It's "don't confuse the customer with choice" and "if he asks for KDE we will show/deliver (that includes support for whole time of course) it to him". And there are companies who obviously prefer KDE over GNOME for whatever reason.

Btw, http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=194&slide=3 or

http://distrowatch.com/nld are nice places to verify that KDE is on NLD 9.

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If NLD9 had Gnome as default

NLD9 didn't have a default desktop, SLED10 will have one for the installation.

And that default will be GNOME?

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where is the desktop-product that has KDE as default?

Why must be there a different product for it?

Bye, Steve

Greg Wallace

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2006-03-10 at 07:57 -0800, kai wrote:

Since most people think Gnome is an ugly piece of manure, I'm sure they'll be switching ASAP.

I don't... - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEE30ptTMYHG2NR9URAtz1AJ9JoS1mv3H/kOQY9rr6EJdaQ6nTowCfZR8b m5rK+FAqX0bUnDKWTupv8ME= =0KNB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Friday, March 10, 2006 @ 4:56 AM, scsijon wrote:

At 02:40 PM 10/03/2006, kai wrote:

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A rose by any other name....

http://www.novell.com/news/press/item.jsp?contentid=687fc977d6cd9010VgnVCM 10000024f64189____

HANNOVER, Germany (CeBIT 2006)—09 Mar 2006—At CeBIT 2006 in Hannover, Germany,

Novell today unveiled its next-generation enterprise Linux* desktop, delivering technology and design improvements that establish the Linux desktop as a benchmark for basic office productivity and usability. The new Linux desktop, SUSE® Linux Enterprise Desktop...

I see the SUSE name has returned.

I prefer this response relative to c-bit

http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/03/09/76288_HNlinuxcatchon_1.html

scsijon

Interesting. The article itself sounds like good strides are being made in making SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop a viable business desktop option, though you do have to keep in mind that this is a Novell press release. It'll be interesting to see what outside reviewers have to say. Greg Wallace