I realize that this topic has been discussed a lot on this list, but I do have a new suggestion below. I innocently "replied" with new subject several times on this list and received what I see is the routine flame from the group policepersons, who seem like to the innocent to be like a group of arrogant teenagers. The first time I did it I got a nice and useful reply from "Matt T." that began: ***************************************************************** "Hi Henry, Next time start a new thread with your question please!" **************************************************************** I looked at this, thought that this was a nice admonition, worth listening to, and interpreted it to mean that the first sentence of a new thread should be a question rather than an introductory sentence. This seemed peculiar to me, but, thought I, this is a German list and perhaps an initial question is part of the local notion of ordnung. So I resolved to start any future post with a question. So I posted another question and got really nasty replies about, as one of them spelled it, "highjacking" threads. Since then I have read about related topics in the archives. One of the policepersons says that hijacking threads is like "farting in an elevator", which is nonsense. No decent person, anywhere, would fart in an elevator. It is more like this: once about 25 years ago I was in backwoods Africa and I visited a village where everyone was cordial and welcoming. I was led to the village hearth to greet the ancestors and drink sour milk from the sacred cattle lineage. When everyone sat down, I did too, but I sat in the chair of the village owner, who had been dead 8 months but whose spirit occupied the chair and was present at the fire. This was a big faux pas. People who had been to school were amused, and they took me aside to explain about the dead guy's chair. The local yokels, meantime, were horrified and appalled. Bad things would happen to the village because of the violation! Outrage! People innocent of threads are like me in the dead guy's village, not like someone who farts in an elevator. There are lots of the innocent who show up on this list for help, and they ought to be treated as the local educated people treated me, not as the local riff-raff treated me. What someone needs to do is write a boilerplate explanation of thread hijacking that would be sent to people like me. It ought to be polite and helpful, and it should have a lot of detail. For example it needs to spell out that threading is done not by the Subject header but by invisible headers that mysteriously keep track of threads and that are an established internet standard (in spite of the awkward fact, according to Mr. Mahlmoud, that the SuSE system threads on Subject ... never mind). Perhaps the policepersons on this list could assign the boilerplate to a function key so that it would be easy to enlighten the puzzled. All ths is not inconsequential for SuSE. My response to the flames I received was to reason that none of us need this and to go buy a number of RedHat Professional boxes to update our laboratory group's machines from SuSE 8.1. The cost of each was more than twice the cost of the "upgrade" to SuSE 8.2 (a full release as far as I can see), but since it was not out of my pocket and since support is important, reasoned I, it was the rational course. I am sure that I am not the only one. In my browsing I remember a post from a Mr. Dennis Nigbur, who got the full flame treatment. He was clearly a linux user, but after what he got from this list he will certainly not be buying from SuSE again. So I brought the RedHat DVD home to blow SuSE 8.2 away from my home machines. Then, I paused, recalling the pleasure of reading Miller's posts about Microsoft and recalling my gratitude for Mr. Ogley's updates to gnome packages. I decided to post this harangue first. Henry Harpending
* Henry Harpending (harpend@xmission.com) [030516 22:14]: -> ->All ths is not inconsequential for SuSE. My response to the flames I ->received was to reason that none of us need this and to go buy a number ->of RedHat Professional boxes to update our laboratory group's machines ->from SuSE 8.1. The cost of each was more than twice the cost of the ->"upgrade" to SuSE 8.2 (a full release as far as I can see), but since it ->was not out of my pocket and since support is important, reasoned I, it ->was the rational course. -> ->I am sure that I am not the only one. In my ->browsing I remember a post from a Mr. Dennis Nigbur, who got the full ->flame treatment. He was clearly a linux user, but after what he got ->from this list he will certainly not be buying from SuSE again. -> ->So I brought the RedHat DVD home to blow SuSE 8.2 away from my home ->machines. Then, I paused, recalling the pleasure of reading Miller's ->posts about Microsoft and recalling my gratitude for Mr. Ogley's updates ->to gnome packages. I decided to post this harangue first. -> Henry, I wouldn't get so frustrated with a few morons. I've been on this list going on about 6 years ..give or take. And I've seen assholes come and go who had their ideas about how things should be. Heck, I've even lost my temper at a few people which I later regretted and I've treated a few people with less then a stellar attitude. Things happens, but you shouldn't get that bent out of shape because a few people out of thousands on this list have issues. For the most part the people on this list are quite nice and helpful. I would also remember that the people who would accuse you or anyone else of farting in an elevator..would most like do that themselves. :) If you wanna go play in Redhat's sandbox ..no one can stop you. But please give it another thought and have a bit of a thicker skin when dealing with people on the Internet. Because for most people the faceless contact with others gives them the balls to be an asshole that they wouldn't normally be face to face. :) Cheers! -- Ben Rosenberg ---===---===---===--- mailto:ben@whack.org The IQ and the life expectancy of the average American recently passed each other going in the opposite direction.
On Friday 16 May 2003 23:22, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
* Henry Harpending (harpend@xmission.com) [030516 22:14]: -> ->All ths is not inconsequential for SuSE. My response to the flames I ->received was to reason that none of us need this and to go buy a number ->of RedHat Professional boxes to update our laboratory group's machines ->from SuSE 8.1. The cost of each was more than twice the cost of the ->"upgrade" to SuSE 8.2 (a full release as far as I can see), but since it ->was not out of my pocket and since support is important, reasoned I, it ->was the rational course. -> ->I am sure that I am not the only one. In my ->browsing I remember a post from a Mr. Dennis Nigbur, who got the full ->flame treatment. He was clearly a linux user, but after what he got ->from this list he will certainly not be buying from SuSE again. -> ->So I brought the RedHat DVD home to blow SuSE 8.2 away from my home ->machines. Then, I paused, recalling the pleasure of reading Miller's ->posts about Microsoft and recalling my gratitude for Mr. Ogley's updates ->to gnome packages. I decided to post this harangue first. ->
Henry,
I wouldn't get so frustrated with a few morons. I've been on this list going on about 6 years ..give or take. And I've seen assholes come and go who had their ideas about how things should be. Heck, I've even lost my temper at a few people which I later regretted and I've treated a few people with less then a stellar attitude. Things happens, but you shouldn't get that bent out of shape because a few people out of thousands on this list have issues. For the most part the people on this list are quite nice and helpful. I would also remember that the people who would accuse you or anyone else of farting in an elevator..would most like do that themselves. :)
If you wanna go play in Redhat's sandbox ..no one can stop you. But please give it another thought and have a bit of a thicker skin when dealing with people on the Internet. Because for most people the faceless contact with others gives them the balls to be an asshole that they wouldn't normally be face to face. :)
Yes it's true..... Ben has lost his temper before! :) Oh, the subject (hehe). Ya, I can recall more than one heated discussion (can you say flame wars) about top posting verse bottom posting. It reminds of that story you may have heard as a child about the war that had been fought for generation because two kings had a disagreement as to whether or not the egg should be open for the small pointed end or the large round end. My point is that it much as Ben and others have stated. For the 3+ years I've seen 'um come and go. Those that think that their vision of how the world and society (aka netizens) should be have, and in some case the opinions they should have. They get board after awhile when the majority of the list begins to ignore them. This is most likely do to the suggestions some have made and I've learned to make good use of..... In a word: Filter!. Oh, and Ben? I still think you ok buddy. Despite what the others say! :) Cheers, Curtis.
On Saturday 17 May 2003 2:22 am, Ben Rosenberg wrote:
. Because for most people the faceless contact with others gives them the balls to be an asshole that they wouldn't normally be face to face. :)
Oh ye of little faith! I fully believe that these people are assholes in real life too..... :-) -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ + Bruce S. Marshall bmarsh@bmarsh.com Bellaire, MI 05/17/03 10:24 + +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "Reputation: what others are not thinking about you."
On Saturday 17 May 2003 00:09, Henry Harpending wrote:
So I brought the RedHat DVD home to blow SuSE 8.2 away from my home machines. Then, I paused, recalling the pleasure of reading Miller's posts about Microsoft and recalling my gratitude for Mr. Ogley's updates to gnome packages. I decided to post this harangue first.
Henry Harpending
Well said, Harry but I doubt if it will have much effect on the self-appointed Net Cops. There are an awful lot of real nice and helpful people on this list but as you have seen there are a few assholes. Please dont judge SuSE by the actions of the latter. Learn how to create a filter on them and send their stuff directly to the bit bucket. You will be surprised as to how nice this list becomes when you do that. Of course this thread is a good way to find out who those people are so you can do the filter creation all at once, and I'm sure that is what you intended, right??? Regards, Richard
I looked at this, thought that this was a nice admonition, worth listening to, and interpreted it to mean that the first sentence of a new thread should be a question rather than an introductory sentence. This seemed peculiar to me, but, thought I, this is a German list and perhaps an initial question is part of the local notion of ordnung. So I resolved to start any future post with a question.
So I posted another question and got really nasty replies about, as one of them spelled it, "highjacking" threads. Since then I have read about related topics in the archives.
One of the policepersons says that hijacking threads is like "farting in an elevator", which is nonsense. No decent person, anywhere, would fart in an elevator. It is more like this: once about 25 years ago I was in backwoods Africa and I visited a village where everyone was cordial and welcoming. I was led to the village hearth to greet the ancestors and drink sour milk from the sacred cattle lineage. When everyone sat down, I did too, but I sat in the chair of the village owner, who had been dead 8 months but whose spirit occupied the chair and was present at the fire. This was a big faux pas. People who had been to school were amused, and they took me aside to explain about the dead guy's chair. The local yokels, meantime, were horrified and appalled. Bad things would happen to the village because of the violation! Outrage!
It is unfortunate that people will give you a lecture and not help you with the question. I have personally seen more of this here recently.
All ths is not inconsequential for SuSE. My response to the flames I received was to reason that none of us need this and to go buy a number of RedHat Professional boxes to update our laboratory group's machines from SuSE 8.1. The cost of each was more than twice the cost of the "upgrade" to SuSE 8.2 (a full release as far as I can see), but since it was not out of my pocket and since support is important, reasoned I, it was the rational course.
I am sure that I am not the only one. In my browsing I remember a post from a Mr. Dennis Nigbur, who got the full flame treatment. He was clearly a linux user, but after what he got from this list he will certainly not be buying from SuSE again.
So I brought the RedHat DVD home to blow SuSE 8.2 away from my home machines. Then, I paused, recalling the pleasure of reading Miller's posts about Microsoft and recalling my gratitude for Mr. Ogley's updates to gnome packages. I decided to post this harangue first.
Henry Harpending
The threading issue IMHO has been beat to death. I now have my mail reader program using threads and I can see how it can be very helpful. I also can see how they can get upset when the flow of the thread gets interrupted. But the individual that asked very nicely for you to start a new thread was the correct way to do it. If indeed you posted a new question which will start a new thread, then you have nothing to worry about. I guess that these "policepersons" as you describe them should definately read the morale story of the boy and the fence. Like others have stated there are a few people who make life rough but the others that show respect and try and assist are the ones that make it worth while. I hope that you will still use SuSE but I can understand your decision. -- Marshall "Nothing is impossible, we just do not have all the anwsers to make the impossible, possible."
Marshall Heartley
The threading issue IMHO has been beat to death. I now have my mail reader program using threads and I can see how it can be very helpful. I also can see how they can get upset when the flow of the thread gets interrupted.
We have only beaten one side of the thread issue. I personally find the opposite of 'thread hijacking' - posting a reply as a 'new' message rather than a reply - to be much more irritating. In mailing lists (not this one) where this happens a lot (or where one of the frequent posters does it) it can be very difficult to follow the "thread" of the discussion especially if you allow messages to accumulate before reading the list.
On Sat, 2003-05-17 at 08:09, Henry Harpending wrote:
One of the policepersons says that hijacking threads is like "farting in an elevator", which is nonsense.
Farting in an elevator? Give me 5 tries and i'll find out who said that. I also was warned unpolitely about hijacking threads, a few months ago; and i was accused of being a person "that spit chewing gum on the ground, paint their nails on the train in the morning, and yak on cellphones during movies" Does it make sense? I also was almost deciding to switch to another distro, or at least, leave this list; but it's also, nonsense. Please forget about those guys, and enjoy the hundreds of helpful people on this list. After all, net is a great place to feed egos, so you'd meet one of those anywhere. Regards,
participants (8)
-
Ben Rosenberg -
Bruce Marshall -
Curtis Rey -
Graham Murray -
Henry Harpending -
Marshall Heartley -
oguzeren -
Richard