The recent discussion of zmd/zypp, which I hadn't previously known about, leads me to ask this question: what updating tools are available and how do they compare? I know of zmd/zypp, smart, apt-get, and the Yast online updater, but I only have experience with YOU. I imagine others might be asking the same question. Paul
Paul Abrahams wrote:
The recent discussion of zmd/zypp, which I hadn't previously known about, leads me to ask this question: what updating tools are available and how do they compare? I know of zmd/zypp, smart, apt-get, and the Yast online updater, but I only have experience with YOU.
There have been several discussions about this topic already. Tools have been named and lots of individual experiences have been posted. To get something new out of this topic -- what haven't been collected yet, is a set of requirements that people think are interesting in update tools. This might make for a more objective review, and not a once-again story about "xyzzy works great for me". (Well, if "xyzzy" beams you to a different room, you know that this ain't the right discussion thread for you anyhow; update will just work. :-) To start such a list, what can update tools do, resp. what are their capabilities: -- support more than one repository (i.e., official SUSE and non-official like packman) -- run in batch mode (i.e., as cron job) -- check interactively for updates but don't install them -- cron job to check for updates but don't install them -- download updates once for a set of systems in a network -- memory consumption -- CPU time per update -- support of patch rpms, to reduce update times -- integration into desktop environment (KDE, GNOME) -- are dependencies installed during upgrades (i.e., if one updates a package, and the new package has new and uninstalled dependencies -- are these dependencies automatically installed as well). -- officially supported by SUSE, or an independent community effort -- probability to be supported for the next 2-3 years This is just an unordered list as a start, made up from the issues that we discussed in the past on this mailing list. (please recognize the time when I write this :-). Of course, different people will have different priorities and deem some requirements more important than others. That's the reason why different tools get different ratings in different posts. When we would have such a requirement list, we could use it as lines in a table where the columns are the update tools and the table cells have entries that read yes/no, or maybe unavailable / basic support / good support. I think you get the gist, and would ask for any feedback. Shall we create a page at the opensuse wiki? Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany
On Saturday 23 September 2006 16:03, Joachim Schrod wrote:
To start such a list, what can update tools do, resp. what are their capabilities: -- support more than one repository (i.e., official SUSE and non-official like packman) -- run in batch mode (i.e., as cron job) -- check interactively for updates but don't install them -- cron job to check for updates but don't install them -- download updates once for a set of systems in a network -- memory consumption -- CPU time per update -- support of patch rpms, to reduce update times -- integration into desktop environment (KDE, GNOME) -- are dependencies installed during upgrades (i.e., if one updates a package, and the new package has new and uninstalled dependencies -- are these dependencies automatically installed as well). -- officially supported by SUSE, or an independent community effort -- probability to be supported for the next 2-3 years
So other than the last one, the tool we appear to be abandoning (Yast Online Update - YOU) filled all the requirements. So other than making work for a bunch of Gnome re-treads, why the big push to this current mess? -- _____________________________________ John Andersen
On Sat, 2006-09-23 at 17:45 -0800, John Andersen wrote:
On Saturday 23 September 2006 16:03, Joachim Schrod wrote:
To start such a list, what can update tools do, resp. what are their capabilities: -- support more than one repository (i.e., official SUSE and non-official like packman) -- run in batch mode (i.e., as cron job) -- check interactively for updates but don't install them -- cron job to check for updates but don't install them -- download updates once for a set of systems in a network -- memory consumption -- CPU time per update -- support of patch rpms, to reduce update times -- integration into desktop environment (KDE, GNOME) -- are dependencies installed during upgrades (i.e., if one updates a package, and the new package has new and uninstalled dependencies -- are these dependencies automatically installed as well). -- officially supported by SUSE, or an independent community effort -- probability to be supported for the next 2-3 years
So other than the last one, the tool we appear to be abandoning (Yast Online Update - YOU) filled all the requirements.
Not the first one. YOU only ever supported one repository. The package manager could have several, but YOU had its own format. This also meant that if you installed a package that had received updates, you first installed the original version and then the update.
So other than making work for a bunch of Gnome re-treads, why the big push to this current mess?
I can't speak for the developers, but IMHO the old YOU had to go sooner or later, no matter what. The new tools can handle all kinds of repository formats, and - more importantly - it can be remote controlled, so it's easier to administer large numbers of machines Oh, and I installed 10.2 Factory yesterday. In my opinion, the big problems have been solved. The package manager is actually fast now
John Andersen wrote:
On Saturday 23 September 2006 16:03, Joachim Schrod wrote:
To start such a list, what can update tools do, resp. what are their capabilities: -- support more than one repository (i.e., official SUSE and non-official like packman) -- run in batch mode (i.e., as cron job) -- check interactively for updates but don't install them -- cron job to check for updates but don't install them -- download updates once for a set of systems in a network -- memory consumption -- CPU time per update -- support of patch rpms, to reduce update times -- integration into desktop environment (KDE, GNOME) -- are dependencies installed during upgrades (i.e., if one updates a package, and the new package has new and uninstalled dependencies -- are these dependencies automatically installed as well). -- officially supported by SUSE, or an independent community effort -- probability to be supported for the next 2-3 years
So other than the last one, the tool we appear to be abandoning (Yast Online Update - YOU) filled all the requirements.
That's not quite true: YOU supports only one repository, and for many users this is a big bummer since one needs packman et.al. to get audio/video support beyond Helix. In addition, batch update checks and downloads are not documented well; I would therefore classify them as basic and not as good support. Starting with 10.1, YOU also does not support check for updates in batch mode. But then, as I wrote, I think it's as important to collect capabilities that can be used for comparison. I forgot another capability, mentioned by Anders: -- can handle several repository formats More capabilities to be mentioned? Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany
On Sun, Sep 24, 2006 at 11:16:54AM +0200, Joachim Schrod wrote:
John Andersen wrote:
On Saturday 23 September 2006 16:03, Joachim Schrod wrote:
To start such a list, what can update tools do, resp. what are their capabilities: -- support more than one repository (i.e., official SUSE and non-official like packman) -- run in batch mode (i.e., as cron job) -- check interactively for updates but don't install them -- cron job to check for updates but don't install them -- download updates once for a set of systems in a network -- memory consumption -- CPU time per update -- support of patch rpms, to reduce update times -- integration into desktop environment (KDE, GNOME) -- are dependencies installed during upgrades (i.e., if one updates a package, and the new package has new and uninstalled dependencies -- are these dependencies automatically installed as well). -- officially supported by SUSE, or an independent community effort -- probability to be supported for the next 2-3 years
So other than the last one, the tool we appear to be abandoning (Yast Online Update - YOU) filled all the requirements.
That's not quite true: YOU supports only one repository, and for many users this is a big bummer since one needs packman et.al. to get audio/video support beyond Helix. In addition, batch update checks and downloads are not documented well; I would therefore classify them as basic and not as good support. Starting with 10.1, YOU also does not support check for updates in batch mode.
But then, as I wrote, I think it's as important to collect capabilities that can be used for comparison. I forgot another capability, mentioned by Anders: -- can handle several repository formats
More capabilities to be mentioned?
YOU in 10.1 does support more than one repository. Ciao, Marcus
Marcus Meissner wrote:
So other than the last one, the tool we appear to be abandoning (Yast Online Update - YOU) filled all the requirements.
That's not quite true: YOU supports only one repository, and for many users this is a big bummer since one needs packman et.al. to get audio/video support beyond Helix.
YOU in 10.1 does support more than one repository.
I stand corrected. But since you're reading this in your free time (or are you working at Sunday morning? :-), I'll take the opportunity to ask -- the only overview document concerning the switch from YOU to libzypp known to me is http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp. Are there more requirements/architecture/overview documents available? Cheers, Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany
On Sun, Sep 24, 2006 at 11:36:32AM +0200, Joachim Schrod wrote:
Marcus Meissner wrote:
So other than the last one, the tool we appear to be abandoning (Yast Online Update - YOU) filled all the requirements.
That's not quite true: YOU supports only one repository, and for many users this is a big bummer since one needs packman et.al. to get audio/video support beyond Helix.
YOU in 10.1 does support more than one repository.
I stand corrected.
But since you're reading this in your free time (or are you working at Sunday morning? :-), I'll take the opportunity to ask -- the only overview document concerning the switch from YOU to libzypp known to me is http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp. Are there more requirements/architecture/overview documents available?
Not that I know. There is quite some stuff there... I don't think there is much more of design documents internally. Ciao, Marcus
Joachim Schrod wrote:
But then, as I wrote, I think it's as important to collect capabilities that can be used for comparison. I forgot another capability, mentioned by Anders: -- can handle several repository formats
Some more: -- unified handling of packages and patches -- support for selections / patterns, maybe separate patterns per repository (see http://en.opensuse.org/Patterns) -- Additional dependencies based on language (for fonts, translatations, etc.) or hardware (for drivers) -- remote management -- support for updating a whole network of computers, while not running the internet-based check on each of them -- support for enterprise network situations (internet access soleley through authenticated HTTP proxies, and such) -- backup mode (save downloaded packages/patches and be able to reuse them on the same or a different computer; maybe one that is not connected to the Internet) (Some of these new items are from http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp.) Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany
John Andersen wrote:
On Saturday 23 September 2006 16:03, Joachim Schrod wrote:
To start such a list, what can update tools do, resp. what are their capabilities: -- support more than one repository (i.e., official SUSE and non-official like packman) -- run in batch mode (i.e., as cron job) -- check interactively for updates but don't install them -- cron job to check for updates but don't install them -- download updates once for a set of systems in a network -- memory consumption -- CPU time per update -- support of patch rpms, to reduce update times -- integration into desktop environment (KDE, GNOME) -- are dependencies installed during upgrades (i.e., if one updates a package, and the new package has new and uninstalled dependencies -- are these dependencies automatically installed as well). -- officially supported by SUSE, or an independent community effort -- probability to be supported for the next 2-3 years
So other than the last one, the tool we appear to be abandoning (Yast Online Update - YOU) filled all the requirements.
That's not quite true: YOU supports only one repository, and for many users this is a big bummer since one needs packman et.al. to get audio/video support beyond Helix. For my needs, 9.3 was almost perfect. I would prefer YOU to only mess with security updates, not updates for all packages. I do not put into
Joachim Schrod wrote: the same category a security update with the latest kde or gnome, nor anything from packman. Not that they are not important, just not for YOU. I went from 9.3 to 10.1, but the only thing for me 9.3's Yast lacked was automatic refreshing of the various installation sources you COULD add, including packman. I just made sure I manually refreshed them (and I heard 10.0 had that). Then, with the software installation module, you could easily go to Package groups, choose all, then go to Tools, all in this list, update if newer version is available, then installation summary to double check everything it was planning to do, then OK (this was from memory, there may be small mistakes.) Perhaps my needs are not the norm these days. If all of that was put into one button, that would be convenient, but I don't mind the steps. And with Yast graphical, I could choose which version (or arch) to install.
But then, as I wrote, I think it's as important to collect capabilities that can be used for comparison. I forgot another capability, mentioned by Anders: -- can handle several repository formats
More capabilities to be mentioned? I hasn't appeared to me that there is anything we have gained by going to a repodata format over Yast's, though it may be more 'compatible' with other distributions. I preferred the Yast format, it seemed more complete and faster. But there is much I don't know.
-- Joe Morris Registered Linux user 231871
On Sunday 24 September 2006 10:16, Joachim Schrod wrote:
More capabilities to be mentioned?
I didn't see patch sets mentioned. i.e. kernel, kernel-xen, kernel-source etc must all be installed or none of them. This was one of the criticsms levelled at Smart by a SUSE staffer. -- Steve Boddy
participants (7)
-
Anders Johansson -
Joachim Schrod -
Joe Morris (NTM) -
John Andersen -
Marcus Meissner -
Paul Abrahams -
Stephen Boddy