--- Alexey Eremenko wrote:

On 5/1/06, Chuck Davis wrote:

...

I don't believe a word of it. It will be a long time before I run ANYTHING based on GNOME. Further, if Linux becomes a GNOME world I'd just as soon run Vista -- I'm getting too old to fight anymore.

Totally agreed. If there will be no KDE - I won't be running Linux on my home desktop. KDE is the only Linux'es choice before users run back to Windows.

I cannot comment about code efficiency however, because I'm not a programmer.

I am a KDE fan and run it everyday for my daily work,but I like GNOME too, I like the fact that I can switch desktops just like that in SuSE. Another one I like is Enlightenment, unfortunately SuSE does not have DR17 which is really nice looking... anyway the reason I am posting this is because I have been following some of the K vs G debate and do not agree with the things being said about Linux fragmentation of effort and loss of focus....what is that all about isn't Linux a symbol of "anyone can do anything" and it eventually works better than the thing many highly paid focused individuals produce???? I mean why should the effort be channeled in to one single project so that it survives, so what....do not get me wrong I know there are companies out there that would love to squash open source and move on and having focus has it's big benefits but I think if there was only one of a thing I might as well run that it is called "windows"... Choice is the number one thing that keeps innovation going and life interesting, if I had to look at the same desktop everyday because the majority of people like it and everyone really concentrated on making it perfect I would really hate that... I want to do things my way just because... :) there I throwed it in the pot. regards, george __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

On 5/1/06, Chuck Davis wrote:

...

I don't believe a word of it. It will be a long time before I run ANYTHING based on GNOME. Further, if Linux becomes a GNOME world I'd just as soon run Vista -- I'm getting too old to fight anymore.

Totally agreed. If there will be no KDE - I won't be running Linux on my home desktop. KDE is the only Linux'es choice before users run back to Windows. <snip> That is a somewhat exaggerated statement I believe. My preference is also for KDE, but I also like the BlackBox , and if it's a really old computer xfce4 guis. In particular xfce takes a lot less overhead and is still pleasing to the eye, so far, than most of the guis I have

into electronic streams flowing thru the cosmos On Monday 01 May 2006 4:28 pm, Alexey Eremenko wrote: tried. It is one of the joys of Linux that you can keep playing around until you find a desktop or no gui at all that pleases your eye and intuition.. or at least it seems intuitive by the time you actually spend time thinking about it.. These different guis are included on the Suse disks, and I would think probably are included in the downloadable version as well. I read in the Linux Pro magazine this month that Novell has bowed to the pressure (?!??!!) But has made one small, but important , at least to the article writer, change... Gnome will be the FIRST choice in the list of guis to install; and the implication was, that should you install , for instance, Gnome, KDE, xfce4, fluxbox, fvwm2, or an any of what seems an almost endless list of guis... Gnome will be your first choice to boot to. I believe that is a misguided attempt to get people who do NOT pay attention when they click to load the Gnome desktop unknowingly, on the impression that if they "try it they will like it"... But as long as there is choice.. I stay w/ Suse ;-D -- j "There's a woman goin' crazy on Caroline Street Stoppin' every man that she does meet Sayin' if you'll be gentle if you'll be sweet I'll show you my place on Caroline Street" Song lyric

On Monday 01 May 2006 20:48, Chuck Davis wrote:

Why GNOME has garnerred the corporate support it has is a mystery to me.  

I think it's something to do with the fact that a lot of GNOME is LGPL now, so it's easier to tie proprietary stuff to it. I find this amusingly ironic, seeing that de Icaza started GNOME because the then-Qt license wasn't "free" enough .... -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD

On 02/05/06, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Hi!

Am Dienstag, 2. Mai 2006 10:23 schrieb Kevin Donnelly:

...

On Monday 01 May 2006 20:48, Chuck Davis wrote:

...

Why GNOME has garnerred the corporate support it has is a mystery to me.

I think it's something to do with the fact that a lot of GNOME is LGPL now, so it's easier to tie proprietary stuff to it. I find this amusingly ironic, seeing that de Icaza started GNOME because the then-Qt license wasn't "free" enough ....

And SuSE 10.1 did not want to supply any kernel-tainting stuff anymore. What else then tainting is putting non-OSS stuff into (L)GPL code? If one does not want to have non-OSS bits in an OSS environment, then LGPL is not really what one wants to supply, as it encourages to use non-OSS bits.

Sven

There is a printed promise by Greg Mancusi-Ungaro (he directs Linux and open source marketing at Novell) in the latest Linux Format magazine (LXF 80 - it'll be on UK newsagents shelves in a day or two). In it he states: "SUSE has always included both KDE and Gnome and will continue to support both, as will our enterprise products going forward. It's been challenging for us to work with partners in a way that's rational, but we've decided that in the next generation of our enterprise products, Gnome will be the default desktop. But we will continue to ship and support KDE, for a number of reasons." There is a bit more on the subject where he does state that SuSE will encourage software writers/designers to code specifically for Gnome if they are unsure of which desktop to go for. They will not discourage writers of KDE software though. It is claimed that the Gnome preference is purely for clarification for the community and the hardware/software vendors for which desktop SuSE will certify their products on. Now, I read into that the inference that SuSE/Novell are listening to the Linux community as to which desktop they are putting as default. Note I said the Linux community and not the SuSE community. I get a feeling - I may be wrong - that they are relying on the goodwill of us in the SuSe users camp of sticking with SuSE come what may. I think they are hoping to attract the likes of staunch Fedora users over to using SuSE and so swelling the user base that way. If you look at my previous posts on this subject you'll see tht I have changed my ideas a little from the past. I am now starting to think that SuSE will actually begin to push Gnome over and above KDE in the near future. If this happens I truly believe it will be a big mistake. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2006-05-02 at 08:33 -0400, Bryan S. Tyson wrote:

I think SuSE wants to go Gnome-only. They are half-heartedly continuing to include it for now, because of user complaints, but I won't be surprised to see them drop it entirely after a while, or at least relegate it to a status of near-oblivion.

Absurd. I don't believe any of that. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEWL1KtTMYHG2NR9URAr9rAJwKYC9eO4dPDBzTehN5Ysq1KJ7dGwCfT/lO ZCrUl1zq9xubMANcKbD5NHk= =7CQ8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On May 3, 2006, at 11:34 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

"Bryan S. Tyson" writes:

...

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 05:00 am, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

I am now starting to think that SuSE will actually begin to push Gnome over and above KDE in the near future. If this happens I truly believe it will be a big mistake.

I think SuSE wants to go Gnome-only. They are half-heartedly continuing to include it for now, because of user complaints, but I won't be surprised to see them drop it entirely after a while, or at least relegate it to a status of near-oblivion.

We're supporting both GNOME and KDE - and just look at the current SUSE Linux 10.1 RCs, it contains both a good KDE and a good GNOME. The change is that with 10.1 we have - compared to e.g. 9.1 - not one but two desktops that we take special care of.

There might be individuals - inside and outside of Novell - that would like a GNOME or KDE distribution, but the commitment for SUSE Linux is to support both,

Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Hi, Andreas, Thank you for making this clear! KDE fans have nothing to fear. Gnome fans have nothing to fear. All are welcome. I myself am a KDE fan but look forward to seeing a Gnome implementation from the "Home of Gmone"; who else could do it better. PeterB

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 09:34 am, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

"Bryan S. Tyson" writes:

...

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 05:00 am, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

I am now starting to think that SuSE will actually begin to push Gnome over and above KDE in the near future.  If this happens I truly believe it will be a big mistake.

I think SuSE wants to go Gnome-only. They are half-heartedly continuing to include it for now, because of user complaints, but I won't be surprised to see them drop it entirely after a while, or at least relegate it to a status of near-oblivion.

We're supporting both GNOME and KDE - and just look at the current SUSE Linux 10.1 RCs, it contains both a good KDE and a good GNOME. The change is that with 10.1 we have - compared to e.g. 9.1 - not one but two desktops that we take special care of.

Though I understand your position, and I appreciate you sending an email to the list, I cannot imagine that this is the prevailing opinion at headquarters in Utah or Massachuset. I can very easily see the tide slowly turning from one of emphatic support of KDE to that of simple maintenance.

There might be individuals - inside and outside of Novell - that would like a GNOME or KDE distribution, but the commitment for SUSE Linux is to support both,

As I imagine you will to some degree for some time. Thank you for your comments. -- k

On 04/05/06, Mark H. Harris wrote:

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 21:43, kai wrote:

...

I can very easily see the tide slowly turning from one of emphatic support of KDE to that of simple maintenance.

I am amazed at some of the comments on this thread. Ok, basics... Linux is not Winblows... the desktop is *not* tied to the OS in Linux... the desktop is *not* tied to the distribution in Linux... Suse doesn't support the KDE desktop, the KDE community supports the KDE desktop... If Suse ever ships without KDE (and it won't anytime soon) I will add the KDE desktop myself. Suse (Novel) is an elegant packaged distribution. If it ever stops being an elegant packaged distribution (Do I hear Oracle/Ellis coming?) then someone else will come along and represent the linux OS community with a new elegant packaged distribution. In the mean time, any packaged distribution is like Legos... infinitely configurable... you don't like it---then change it. It isn't complete---then add to it. I have used Gnome & KDE for several years... I prefer KDE, but I like being able to switch between them... and sometimes I even use twm (tiny window manager) with no desktop at all!

Use TCL/TK for the gui, Use C for the guts, use Java for nothing.

I'll roll some replies up into one. First Andreas, I know that you are being 100% sincere but, I only reported to the list what another SuSE/ Novell employee has stated and is in print in the public domain. I added my thoughts and made it quite explicit that they were my thoughts. I have changed my opinion from previously. I do believe that at some point SuSE/Novell will cease to offer the KDE. That doesn't mean that we, as SuSE customers/users cannot install it ourselves of course. SuSE/Novell do indeed support the KDE at this present moment. Their are specific tweaks added by SuSE/Novell to the KDE to improve interaction with SuSE. Finally, Kai. Sure, no problem. However, in a day or two the full article may be online where everybody will be able to read it and make their own judgements. If it isn't then I will certainly scan it in if I haven't done so already and I can send it to anybody who desires a copy. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Thursday 04 May 2006 17:26, Peter Onion wrote:

I wonder how many of the contributors to this thread have ever built KDE or GNOME from the sources ? I have not had to build GNOME from source for a couple of years now.

The most infuriatingly frustrating project I've ever undertaken was building GARNOME over and over and over and over :-) Carl

Hi, I am looking for or a how-to setup Konsole to use ssh-agent. I have a public key with a password I want to have available in all sessions that I start in Konsole, how should I start Konsole so that it is a child of ssh-agent and I have to type my password only once?? TIA George __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2006-05-05 at 11:57 -0400, George Stoianov wrote:

I am looking for or a how-to setup Konsole to use ssh-agent.

You will get more answers if you don't hijack threads. You hijacked:

Subject: Re: [SLE] Re: GNOME vs KDE Redoux

and this thread will probably be in the kill list of quite some people. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEW9jhtTMYHG2NR9URAqivAJ9AEbSFk+elxVzezuCR+NXJ6TZUcQCfUEln xF9bULMFZKJVtQ2kcUtuP+A= =N/47 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 05/05/06, Jerry Feldman wrote:

Or, they expect things, such as firewalls, to work the same way as Windows. --

Oh, you mean as in not....working ;-))))) -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Friday 05 May 2006 06:18, elefino wrote:

The first group reached saturation long ago. There's not much growth to be had anymore among hobbyists. There's plenty of room among users-with-actual-lives. Eventually, some of the hobbyists will get so pissed with the expectations and limitations of users-with-actual-lives, that some of them will get together and create a new hobbyist platform... well, they will after the wars about switching to a "pure" form of BSD or some such.

I'm actually in the middle... I am a computer hobbyist, and I also have a life which involves compute science to one degree or another. I use my systems for real-world applications and I find that the Unix-like platform i686 does the best job. One of the main reasons is that it is infinitely configurable and open-source. I do believe that there are a number of people moving from Windoze who are not up to speed yet with the primary advantages of open-source-- we hobbyists need to educate when possible. I also *buy* distributions (I used to buy RedHat, now I buy Suse)... unlike some hobbyists who believe it is *not* moral to spend money for software, I find that packaged documented tested distributions are great starting points for real-world users and hobbyists alike. However, the real power and freedom I get from Linux distributions is that they provide real flexibility not available to PC users under Micro$oft Windoze. It is high time that the computer user community (hobbyists and real-world users) are no longer under the thumbs of those knot-heads at Redmond, nor under the constant attack of Windblows crackers, spyware, yadda yadda. Anyone can learn to use a makefile... compiling from sources is a piece of cake. -- Kind regards, Mark H. Harris <>< harrismh777@earthlink.net

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2006-05-06 at 11:10 +0100, Kevanf1 wrote:

True, but to start with it's like that very first jump into a swimming pool. You need to learn to swim and during that learning period you are going to swallow a fair bit of water which is very unpleasant. It's easy for the strong swimmers (Linux users) to forget their first tentative steps into making a package from source. It's easy enough to follow a set of instructions, yes, but it's when those darn dependencies keep cropping up with error warnings. This still happens too often.

If you knew how to swim in windows (ie, compile, use makefiles, etc), then it is not so dificult. You have to change your swiming style, that's all. It is much different when you have to create a new package. But compiling something that has being prepared to be compiled is not that difficult. But of course, compiling something for kde or gnome IS more complex. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEXHuotTMYHG2NR9URAgeDAKCVDw+zdrJN8Vj8ILNVCe5YaWRBUwCff948 +OJKmbxMd7kZHgmpV9mG7bg= =smo+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

If you knew how to swim in windows (ie, compile, use makefiles, etc), then it is not so dificult. You have to change your swiming style, that's all.

Windows users *do not* compile anything. They buy or download. This ex-Windows user did. A lot of security tools (the good ones) and exploits come only as C code to prevent the average script kiddie from using it. I have also compiled my own programs with Windows. Generally speaking though, most Windows users do as you say.

- James W.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2006-05-06 at 13:39 +0200, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

If you knew how to swim in windows (ie, compile, use makefiles, etc), then it is not so dificult. You have to change your swiming style, that's all.

Windows users *do not* compile anything. They buy or download.

Not true. I was a dos/windows user before coming to unix or linux, and compiled a lot of things. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEXLE8tTMYHG2NR9URAlO0AJ9ZwZ9cgfu4illktw7yz2BmKuzpKwCeOboo W++ap1KB2hFd5OFBz7Np3/U= =rP7d -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

For 99.9% of Windows users adding a new program to their system means clicking 3 or perhaps 4 buttons at most. Many times it just means clicking one button. There is no compiling to be done in anything near the same way as in Linux. Programs in Windows are pretty much like our RPMs in that it means click a button and it installs. It is rare to get dependency hell, not unknown but rare. When it does happen it is normally a single missing .dll file not one after the other. I can and have installed from source in Linux. I am not comfortable doing it as I have had dependency hell many times. Which is why prefer to hunt down ready built packages. I honestly wish I did not have to though. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On 06/05/06, Mike McMullin wrote:

I realize I'm nitpicking here, but "windows user(s)" and "typical windows user(s)" can be two completely different animals. The first is all inclusive, and a poor choice of words, the second has built in exclusions, i.e. those who write and compile windows apps.

I'd say that the percentage of Windows users who do not know one jot of programming far, far out ways those who do. Whereas the opposite is true in the Linux world. One day, many years in the future the latter will change. A PC user should not 'have' to know about how to compile software just to use the PC. The PC is now a consumer item the same as a tv set. As unpalatable as it may be to many long term Linux fans, the tide has to turn if more people are going to use Linux. I'm not saying that to stir up trouble just that it is a necessity. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On 06/05/06, Mike McMullin wrote:

Of the several times I have tried compiling programs for Linux (and I mean from source dl'ed, not from books on programming), I have not once had any success. :(

Don't give up though :-) Just by trying you raise yourself above the level of those 99.9% of Windows users I mentioned. Perhpas that 'is' the difference between Windows users and Linux users. Ignoring those of us who use both of course. Linux users will actually try to do something different. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Sat, 2006-05-06 at 15:35 -0700, Chuck Davis wrote:

Mike:

Why don't you give us an example. Surely somebody here can help you have a positive experience. You have to have the compiler installed but apart from that most of the stuff you download will have everything needed to compile it and, in fact, install it as well with the standard three step procedure.

Chuck

On 5/6/06, Mike McMullin wrote:

...

Of the several times I have tried compiling programs for Linux (and I mean from source dl'ed, not from books on programming), I have not once had any success. :(

I will at some point do that, but not on this thread, and when I once again have the patience to tackle something. At the moment I still have the fax thread open, which is that way due to a lack of time and oppourtunity meshing.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2006-05-06 at 12:37 -0400, Ken Jennings wrote:

...

...

Windows users *do not* compile anything. They buy or download.

Not true. I was a dos/windows user before coming to unix or linux, and compiled a lot of things.

Since when does (or did) a compiler come with Windows? So, how does the typical Windows user compile anything?

Since when does or (did) anything come with Windows? So, how does the typical Windows user do anything? But then, I never mentioned _typical_ users. I was thinking of myself and many others. It is true that most windows users know nothing about programming. Nevertheless there are many that do program. And nowdays, even gcc has a version for windows! Or they can use some of the basic flavours, some of them free (I know basic is (normally) interpreted). Also, 10 years ago, Linux was not so popular, so most tinkerers (or hackers, if you please) did their things in dos/windows. In fact, I Compiled more things in Windows than in Linux - considering that in windows they were mostly my own, and in Linux they are from somebody else and I do not understand them. In fact, many people, me included, compile things in Linux without really knowing what we are doing. I download something, type configure, then make, then checkinstall... if something goes wrong, I have a look at the messages, install something else, and then retry. If I can't do it, I ask here. Linux programmer? Certainly not. I can't. Too complicated. Many linux users do not really Compile any thing (uppercase intended). They just enter a more complex set of commands to install things. And I'm in that group. Most of the time, that is. I don't consider that Compiling, as in programming. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEXlREtTMYHG2NR9URAnwzAJ9fuRub+fW3qlU7lYnetoWpKvRxngCfeV/W UnybEQZqDs7H4w1Aj7MZJFE= =gMOp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2006-05-07 at 18:14 -0400, Doug McGarrett wrote:

I never really did, when I was working--I learned some Pascal, and that's a compiled language, and I did compile some custom stuff from the Windows platform. It really is too bad that languages like BASIC and Pascal are gone, now. They are much simpler (I think) than C or C++. Or, worse, Visual Something. Not that I can write in any of the latter.

Not fully gone. There is, in Linux, fpc (Free Pascal Compiler) and Lazarus (curious name ;-) ), and another one from the gcc group I don't quite like. - -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFEXnsXtTMYHG2NR9URAj28AJkBeW/XoSdCLMJAkiXuHPJLO7fVDACdEX0p UnJqZoVxSucpl7gIWZWzoko= =wWeq -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 08:29 pm, Mark H. Harris wrote:

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 21:43, kai wrote:

...

I can very easily see the tide slowly turning from one of emphatic support of KDE to that of simple maintenance.

I am amazed at some of the comments on this thread. Ok, basics... Linux is not Winblows... the desktop is *not* tied to the OS in Linux... the desktop is *not* tied to the distribution in Linux...

No, Linux - or more specifically SUSE - is very much not Windows. SUSE is being used by people like me as a productivity tool to get our jobs done and for some recreation. I won't even go into the reasons *nix is superior to Wintendo in all respects save a few UI issues. As you mention - and I believe is mentioned elsewhere in this thread - the desktop is not tied to the OS. There are those who want to use the CLI only - especially if they're running servers. There are those who want a lightweight desktop like XFCE or Blackbox and just run a few apps on top. Then there are those like me who expect a full-fledged desktop environment. In fact, it is this environment, KDE, which let me upgrade from Windows XP. I don't expect this to be Windows, rather an upgrade. As I say in my tagline, "genuine Windows replacement part." In other words, I use *nix instead of Windows and expect it to do what is needed.

Suse doesn't support the KDE desktop, the KDE community supports the KDE desktop...

I don't know if it is still true, but this post explains that - at least in '04 - Novell did financially support KDE. http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tip/1531.html I know they've canned some developers and a few have gone on their way willingly, but I don't have any recent information of support or the lack thereof.

If Suse ever ships without KDE (and it won't anytime soon) I will add the KDE desktop myself. Suse (Novel) is an elegant packaged distribution. If it ever stops being an elegant packaged distribution (Do I hear Oracle/Ellis coming?) then someone else will come along and represent the linux OS community with a new elegant packaged distribution.

Yes, I agree, which is what I hope to avoid. In trying several distributions, I fell SuSE/SUSE is the best of the bunch for a general desktop user like me. It has excellent hardware support and fantastic desktop integration in KDE. I'd rather not have to switch to another distribution. In fact, I switched FROM Mandrake to SuSE precicely because of their tight integration and support.

In the mean time, any packaged distribution is like Legos... infinitely configurable... you don't like it---then change it. It isn't complete---then add to it. I have used Gnome & KDE for several years... I prefer KDE, but I like being able to switch between them... and sometimes I even use twm (tiny window manager) with no desktop at all!

Yes, well that may work for the average hobbyist. I've built plenty of systems and have no interest anymore in going around creating one from scratch. I'll be happy to support others in trying to tweak an existing system and will do my best to configure mine for what I want. However, for the most part, I want it to simply "work" for me so I can get stuff done. I certainly don't ever want to build my own desktop. I haven't even tried to recompile my kernel.

Use TCL/TK for the gui, Use C for the guts, use Java for nothing.

/me raises eyebrow - something wrong with Java? Please tell us more. I've programmed in Java, Visual Basic, Cobol, Pascal, C++, C#, and a bit of assembler. So far, I've found Java to be a tight and comfortable programming language. Like any language it has its annoyances. It does a fine job, however, of allowing me to program. My only Okay, enough ranting by me today. I enjoy the discussion, and I hope something good comes out of this. Now back to important tasks like Wesnoth. -- kai - www.perfectreign.com linux - genuine windows replacement part

Mark: Now you've started meddling! I've done COBOL and RPG. RPG on AS/400, iSeries, whatever it's called this week, and Microfocus COBOL on OS/2 PCs. When I started to look around for a place to go when IBM told us to get off their products I found Linux. I looked at C/C++ and they seemed totally disgusting. Then I found Java and it just worked. The libraries supply all the power one could ever wish for. It just keeps getting better and better. You can have your pointers. I'll take my references any day (which of course are pointers underneath). So here's my deal. You use the pointers to create the jvm and I'll use the references you create with them to write my applications! Pointers are just plain evil for applications programmers! And I probably would not want an OS based on anything other than C/C++! Chuck On 5/6/06, Mark H. Harris wrote:

On Saturday 06 May 2006 14:30, kai wrote:

...

/me raises eyebrow - something wrong with Java? Please tell us more. I've programmed in Java, Visual Basic, Cobol, Pascal, C++, C#, and a bit of assembler. So far, I've found Java to be a tight and comfortable programming language. Like any language it has its annoyances.

You don't have RPG or FORTRAN on your list... most of us guys old enough to program COBOL have had our share of both of the others also... :-))

The reason you don't hate Java is because you don't have C on your list... and C programmers need and *must* always and forever use pointers. [its in our blood] anyway, Java is crummy C++ without pointer support... ;-) and well, without pointers you might as well be using Basic... which I guess you did for a while... me too... but that was way way way back on the Vic20 Motorola 6502...

Java functions... its slow, but it works. C++ is better, C is even better, and with a TCL/TK wrapper is the best!

Java is like coffee... before I drink it I always want to add something like cream and/or sugar... then I remember that the stuff is just bad for me...

-- Kind regards,

Mark H. Harris <>< harrismh777@earthlink.net

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Saturday 06 May 2006 07:55 pm, Mark H. Harris wrote:

On Saturday 06 May 2006 14:30, kai wrote:

...

/me raises eyebrow - something wrong with Java?  Please tell us more.  I've programmed in Java, Visual Basic, Cobol, Pascal, C++, C#, and a bit of assembler. So far, I've found Java to be a tight and comfortable programming language. Like any language it has its annoyances.

You don't have RPG or FORTRAN on your list... most of us guys old enough to program COBOL have had our share of both of the others also... :-))

LOL - No, I'm not a "COBOL" programmer. In fact, my only real experience with it was at my last job, where I had to dig into some old (sometimes mid-80's) code and make some tweaks.

The reason you don't hate Java is because you don't have C on your list... and C programmers need and *must* always and forever use pointers. [its in our blood] anyway, Java is crummy C++ without pointer support... ;-) and well, without pointers you might as well be using Basic... which I guess you did for a while... me too... but that was way way way back on the Vic20 Motorola 6502...

Java functions... its slow, but it works. C++ is better, C is even better, and with a TCL/TK wrapper is the best!

Java is like coffee... before I drink it I always want to add something like cream and/or sugar... then I remember that the stuff is just bad for me...

Allright! Well, thanks for your answer. :) I just like it because - now that I have netbeans - it is an easy way to create a cross-platform GUI that looks decent in both Linux and Windows. In fact, I need to get off my duff and get back to programming. :P -- kai - www.perfectreign.com www.livebeans.com - the new NetBeans community 43...for those who require slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything.

On 03/05/06, kai wrote:

On Tuesday 02 May 2006 02:00 am, Kevanf1 wrote:

...

On 02/05/06, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Hi!

Am Dienstag, 2. Mai 2006 10:23 schrieb Kevin Donnelly:

...

On Monday 01 May 2006 20:48, Chuck Davis wrote:

...

Why GNOME has garnerred the corporate support it has is a mystery to me.

I think it's something to do with the fact that a lot of GNOME is LGPL now, so it's easier to tie proprietary stuff to it. I find this amusingly ironic, seeing that de Icaza started GNOME because the then-Qt license wasn't "free" enough ....

And SuSE 10.1 did not want to supply any kernel-tainting stuff anymore. What else then tainting is putting non-OSS stuff into (L)GPL code? If one does not want to have non-OSS bits in an OSS environment, then LGPL is not really what one wants to supply, as it encourages to use non-OSS bits.

Sven

There is a printed promise by Greg Mancusi-Ungaro (he directs Linux and open source marketing at Novell) in the latest Linux Format magazine (LXF 80 - it'll be on UK newsagents shelves in a day or two). In it he states:

"SUSE has always included both KDE and Gnome and will continue to support both, as will our enterprise products going forward. It's been challenging for us to work with partners in a way that's rational, but we've decided that in the next generation of our enterprise products, Gnome will be the default desktop. But we will continue to ship and support KDE, for a number of reasons."

Translated: We will be Gnome-centric and focus all efforts on Gnome. We will expect all people to obey to our whim. However, the rest of you losers out there can choose KDE just like you can choose Blackbox, IceWM, Enlightenment or any of the other "Non-Gnome" Window Managers. Good luck. --

I agree. Especially after reading another bit out of that article which I don't remember if I posted here? Anyway, the interviewee stated, in print, that developers who approached SuSE/Novell with an idea, but did not know which desktop to run the idea on, would be told that the preference would be for Gnome. They would not be turned away if they wanted to write a program for the KDE but the specific encouragement was to be for Gnome. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On 03/05/06, Chuck Davis wrote:

I have a difficult time imagining a developer so stupid s/he had to ask Novell for a suggestion regarding which desktop development tools to use. Indeed, I can't even conceive of the possibility. Is there really someone at Novell so out of touch with reality that s/he is giving such statements in interviews? No wonder they've put the GNOME fanbois in charge there!

CD

It's in print in the latest Linux Format magazine. There isn't a link to the interview on the website yet but when there is I shall post it up so everybody (who is interested) can read it. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== PLEASE DON'T drink and drive it's not clever, it's just stupid. Kevan Farmer Linux user #373362 Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

Graham: I heartily agree. C is not an adequate tool for applications. Miguel stated in an interview not too long ago that he wants GNOME development to go to Mono. In my opinion that is going to be a requirement for GNOME to keep up. I just can't image doing an application in C (or C++) these days. Qt (KDE) is actually usable based on what I've seen of it but I'll still choose Java for applications. If I were interested in windows I'd be using .NET which is MS branded Java. But the smart coders are going to START with a cross-platform, cross-desktop tool in the first place and won't be asking Novell (or any other Linux distro) which desktop to write their application for. CD On 5/3/06, Graham Anderson wrote:

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 15:20, Chuck Davis wrote:

...

I have a difficult time imagining a developer so stupid s/he had to ask Novell for a suggestion regarding which desktop development tools to use. Indeed, I can't even conceive of the possibility. Is there really someone at Novell so out of touch with reality that s/he is giving such statements in interviews? No wonder they've put the GNOME fanbois in charge there!

Yes but then theres the problem developers face when looking at all these supposedly business ready desktops using gnome. Writing a desktop application in C on a C based toolit for a GUI application is many a developers nightmare. In my opinion it's crazy to expect, or even imagine, the army of application developers out there to write C for desktop applications on Linux.

In fact after a quick bit of research, i could not fine a single University in the UK that teaches desktop application development in C. *Every* University here teaches desktop application developement in C++, Java or C# What does that tell you about the problem ;)

It's hardly any wonder the majority of application developers I speak to prefer Qt and writing for KDE. This is also why de Icaza wants GNOME to move to C#/mono so that it has a more suitable language base for development. If the MS haters can get past their blinkered hatred for a moment they would see this is not such a bad idea, at least for GNOME anyway. The problems they face with this are rather large though, an immature language infrastructure not the least bit withstanding.

The simple fact is, if you want to have momentum on the desktop then it's all about the application developers and the tools they have available, *nothing* else matters. I hate to say this but even microsoft understood this :( That's why for now at least I don't see momentum for the GNOME desktop and why KDE will continure to forge ahead in the lead with application development.

While SLED may be a great product, I have no doubt it's usefullness is limited by the lack of application developers able ( and willing! ) to write using the confusing mess that is GTK/GDK/PANGO/Glib. I rather suspect Novell knows this and it why they have clearly stated it is aimed at the 'knowledge' office worker who just needs office apps / browser / email.

People considering deploying a linux desktop would do well to consider this...

Regards,

Graham

P.S. Just use KDE

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

<snip>

If I were interested in windows I'd be using .NET which is MS branded Java. But the smart coders are going to START with a cross-platform, cross-desktop tool in the first place and won't be asking Novell (or any other Linux distro) which desktop to write their application for. </snip>

I use Java for pretty much all my needs it is cross platform and I can find a job in a company that pays money for java knowledge. My questions is why did GNOME had to choose C# and port .NET, not that I am against that or approve it...but what is the political reason. Aren't there other languages like Python for example that are completely open source and could have been used??? Or is it because all school will teach C#, I would say VB.NET more likely, that they went with that language??? I think making something work on Windows by writing it on MONO, so it does work in Linux too is just a strange idea. I mean if my thing is competing with the armed to the teeth guy next door using VS.NET in which he made a few VB.NET forms with d-and-d fubctiobality under .NET everyone in my office will choose that...most people don't care/understand solid technical foundations. They want the wow effect, which is colors and a few extra buttons and 5 min turn-around time... why...??? george

...

On Wednesday 03 May 2006 15:20, Chuck Davis wrote:

...

I have a difficult time imagining a developer so stupid s/he had to ask Novell for a suggestion regarding which desktop development tools to use. Indeed, I can't even conceive of the

...

...

really someone at Novell so out of touch with reality that s/he is giving such statements in interviews? No wonder

...

...

fanbois in charge there!

Yes but then theres the problem developers face when looking at all these supposedly business ready desktops using gnome. Writing a desktop application in C on a C based toolit for a GUI application is many a developers nightmare. In my opinion it's crazy to expect, or even imagine, the army of application developers out there to write C for desktop applications on Linux.

In fact after a quick bit of research, i could not fine a single University in the UK that teaches desktop application development in C. *Every* University here teaches desktop application developement in C++, Java or C# What does that tell you about the problem ;)

It's hardly any wonder the majority of application developers I speak to prefer Qt and writing for KDE. This is also why de Icaza wants GNOME to move to C#/mono so that it has a more suitable language

...

the MS haters can get past their blinkered hatred for a moment they would see this is not such a bad idea, at least for GNOME anyway. The problems they face with this are rather large though, an immature language infrastructure not the least bit withstanding.

The simple fact is, if you want to have momentum on the desktop then it's all about the application developers and the tools

On 5/3/06, Graham Anderson wrote: possibility. Is there they've put the GNOME base for development. If they have available,

...

*nothing* else matters. I hate to say this but even microsoft understood this :( That's why for now at least I don't see momentum for the GNOME desktop and why KDE will continure to forge ahead in the lead with application development.

While SLED may be a great product, I have no doubt it's usefullness is limited by the lack of application developers able ( and willing! ) to write using the confusing mess that is GTK/GDK/PANGO/Glib. I rather suspect Novell knows this and it why they have clearly stated it is aimed at the 'knowledge' office worker who just needs office apps / browser / email.

People considering deploying a linux desktop would do well to consider this...

Regards,

Graham

P.S. Just use KDE

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com